VIERA AND HROTHGAR COMPLAINT MEGATHREAD

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Originally Posted by Caro178

Gotta be fair and say this was never a problem exclusive to Viera. Plenty of bangless hairstyles give every race 5head, lmao. Highlanders not having eyebrows doesn't do them any favours.

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Just looks worse on viera really. Viera typically look better with bangs, in my opinion.

Its big brain time. I wonder what we store in there……
https://i.postimg.cc/X7JnH1G5/8-C58-...571-E57-E0.jpg

Viera Hairstyles:

https://i.imgur.com/FTGVAFR.png

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

Its big brain time. I wonder what we store in there……
https://i.postimg.cc/X7JnH1G5/8-C58-...571-E57-E0.jpg

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I ran across that style in the wild the other day during a raid. I was so in awe of the forehead I actually took a screenshot of the character :X

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

That hair isn't too bad. That forehead though... y i k e s

I don't think it helps that the Hyur is missing eyebrows.

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Reminder this hair is a random drop from EO so if you dont like it you could probably make a few million on the marketboard, depending on how often it drops.

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

Its big brain time. I wonder what we store in there……
https://i.postimg.cc/X7JnH1G5/8-C58-...571-E57-E0.jpg

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This hairstyle is so bad on male and female Viera that it basically doesn't exist to me, this one and the 2b one but for different reasons.

It's like they referenced the Lalafell version to determine how high up the hairline should be for Viera.

https://res.cloudinary.com/lmn/image...tyle-28909.jpg

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Originally Posted by XiRon

Reminder this hair is a random drop from EO so if you dont like it you could probably make a few million on the marketboard, depending on how often it drops.

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:p Issue is that I do like it.

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

Its big brain time. I wonder what we store in there……
https://i.postimg.cc/X7JnH1G5/8-C58-...571-E57-E0.jpg

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I don't think it looks any better on other races. I vomit in my mouth every time I see anybody using this hairstyle. It's so hideous.

https://ffxivcollect.com/images/hair...193129_143.png

Anyway, apologies in advance for the big pic dump, but I was extremely pleased with last patch's assortment of new hairstyles and I hope we get a few more fan favourites in 6.3 like Gyr Abanian Plait and Styled For Hire. Personally I think every hairstyle from 6.2 looks either good or great, even the hairstyles I don't really care for on a design basis. The Lyse ponytail in particular looks absolutely fire on femViera.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fk_cjPTW...name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fk_ezc4X...name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fk_cj7iX...name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fk_cuN5X...name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fk_cu4vW...name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fk_cvmFX...name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fk_cilDX...name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fk_ckmtX...name=4096x4096

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

:p Issue is that I do like it.

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Issue is will it look alright or will look like sad brendan frasier meme on hrothgar.
It is the next best thing to getting a Bald hair update (which nobody should want for hrothgar bc every glitched hrothgar gets bald and it looks awful)

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Originally Posted by XiRon

Issue is will it look alright or will look like sad brendan frasier meme on hrothgar.
It is the next best thing to getting a Bald hair update (which nobody should want for hrothgar bc every glitched hrothgar gets bald and it looks awful)

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It only looks awful because they're smooth as a p- ....baby. Give them fur texture and I'm sold on bald Hroths

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Originally Posted by XiRon

Issue is will it look alright or will look like sad brendan frasier meme on hrothgar.
It is the next best thing to getting a Bald hair update (which nobody should want for hrothgar bc every glitched hrothgar gets bald and it looks awful)

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...I thought bald hroths looked kinda nice... They at least look better than the April 1st hairs, that's for sure. (Obviously IMO, before someone gets all ruffled)

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Originally Posted by XiRon

Issue is will it look alright or will look like sad brendan frasier meme on hrothgar.
It is the next best thing to getting a Bald hair update (which nobody should want for hrothgar bc every glitched hrothgar gets bald and it looks awful)

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I would use a bald option, over anything I currently have accsess too

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Originally Posted by Caro178

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fk_ckmtX...name=4096x4096

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I will always be a fan of any Viera using this hairstyle.

Sorry to post this here, but it's more so to bring it to the correct topic rather than derail the other one again...

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Originally Posted by Pip_Chick

Story is king

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I agree.

Yasumi Matsuno was and is my favourite writer in the entire Square Enix department. Yes, even moreso than the vaunted Natsuko Ishikawa. Because I was a kid and I thought games were just straightforward hallways with polygons until I played FF12. Every little corner had something to explore, every area had something that related to that part of the world, and there were bits of lore for me to find which made the world feel grandiose. I thought games were just quirky things for entertainment, until I actually stopped to consider what I was being told from the heavy and dry FF12, the harsh and convoluted Tactics, and the childish but also relevant even into adulthood Tactics Advance... and that's Final Fantasy alone. He worked on Tactics Ogre and Vagrant Story, games which I still to this day urge people to try and experience.

Because that man knew two things. How to tell a story, with all the complex motifs and messages that he's trying to make the player consider. And how to make the world be more than just the story. FF12 was more than just my first foray into the FF series, it was literally the one game that stood out from RPGs and platformers. None in the series came close. It encouraged me to learn English, it helped expand my creativity and want to make a world as large, expansive, with so many stories that connected with one another in it. Though, sure, that might also be because I'm a gigantic history nerd. So sue me. But the world felt and looked magical. A magic that I always associated a lot with Vieras: beautiful, mysterious, earthern but also fantastical.

FF14 came, I tried ARR, and it felt so much like FF12. There were details everywhere, the lore was vast and complex, there were histories in the past that may or may not have had influenced what we experience today in the MSQ directly. And the messages were a bit cartoonish at times, sure, but there was still sobriety there. The refugee crisis in Ala Mhigo, for example, at times paralleled oddly with real world events, and it was interesting to see how characters in-game approached the logistics of suddenly needing to provide for people while also having personal interests when it came to them.

When I heard Matsuno was going to write the story for Return to Ivalice, I was excited. "Finally, Ivalice getting some recognition and something a bit more complex being added to this". I got the complexity, alright. It hit as hard as an anvil. In came the complaints that you required too much information from other games to understand or care about what was being given to you. And half of it was just contradicted by what you were seeing, so you needed to know Ivalice-for-Nostalgia and Ivalice-for-Relevance.
I had some trepidation going into Bozja because of it, but I still had hopes. It was a Type-0 esque take on Hrothgar lore, but as a continuation of the Return to Ivalice story. "Finally, some details! And Matsuno will definitely help these races have some lore, right?! :D"

...Bozja sucked on so many aspects, it was painful.

Disjointed. Gratuitous. Violent. Stupid. A mockery.

The story didn't add up half the time. It had a lot of plot points, half of which were just handwaved away.
The violence was just overdone and the tones were rather marked. And I'd forgive that because Werylt was going on at the time, which was also violent and harsh... but Werylt ends in some sweet note. Bozja ends with the most sour tone possible.
When you have a story making me yell at my monitor why we're freezing whenever Misija is just standing there.
When you have a story making me wonder why the hell we're listening to someone whose precognition is limited and vague at best, dangerously misleading at worse...
And when your story is making me feel like I just wasted my time doing absolutely god knows what for no pay-off other than seeing characters I cared about die in nonsensical ways...
Ways that we actually had a cure. You can't do Delubrum Reginae at all without doing 5.3, which is when we have a cure for Tempering. But then no, it's all moot and they get mutated on the spot!
It's P A I N F U L.


I can go into details on why that might have been. I have on other threads, from Covid limitations to Matsuno's writing not meshing well with the game they've established. But overall, there was so little quality assessment and cohesion that it was painful.

Lore is easy, and story is the juice like Pip said. But christ almighty. It feels like lately Square has zero interest in making lore that isn't hair-brained, and whatever story they go along with it is either cliché'd or thrown together for the hell of it. So much of what Yasumi Matsuno could do was just thrown into the air. It makes me wonder how much of it he actually wrote, or if he just went down the same rabbit hole as the others. I don't remember his stories, even at their corniest and most boring, being THIS piddly.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, I really do. But I can write better than Bozja.

And I wish I could! FF12 was my inspiration, it made me seek out how to do it. Something Square so clearly lost! That way I could give Hrothgar AND Viera the lore they deserve, the story they deserve. Really interesting, unique and mystical-looking races, thrown into the bin because "lmao no time".

Ah yes, but to write about why Sad Birb was Sad, you dedicated a whole expansion, didn'tcha...

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

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Beautiful. I couldn't have said it better myself. I have played FF12 but didn't really enjoy the story. It was a bit too dry for me, but that boils down to personal taste.

But this! We could have had the Endwalker expansion focus on Bozja and Dalmasca. The same things we did in Thavnair we could have done there, even better since we know Fran and the resistance, we would have had a foothold there even before the expansion. All the information we got about the plot could have been done in one of these locations rather than Thavnair. Then focus on the Emo birb. Focus on the new races, and give them some relevant to the story lore. Get to know them better. Basaldjien could either act as an old friend (if you have finished Bozja) or like a new acquaintance (if you didn't). I think everyone would have liked that better than the side quest and 1 Alliance raid no one likes. These races have been relegated to.

Something other than the FF11 races that get all the spotlight like Hyur, Miquo'te, Au'ra (females, males seem to have the short end of the stick as the others), Lalafell and Elezen. Let the others shine, like Roegadin, male Au'ra, Viera and Hrothgar. I am so tired of seeing the same races over and over. There is nothing wrong with them being there but they never add anyone else to the point that people would be forgiven to think that Roegadin were added in Stormblood and that is why we see almost nothing about them. I want to yell from the top of the rooftop that I want the Queen to be a Hrothgar, but then I remember how happy some Roe got when they saw themselves represented. And I don't want to take that away from them.
And it shouldn't be this way! SE really needs to pay more attention to the story, bring more diversity to the cast and let others shine. It would have been cool if one of the scholars that we met were a Roegadin, I would have loved it if Makoto was actually a Roegadin and the Queen a Hrothgar (even if they had to conceal her face the entire time), how about in Thavnair you put more dialogue with male Au'Ra and Why not let some Viera and Hrothgar have more prominent features in the story?
I liked Erenville, I thought he was neat. But beside him, which new character was a Viera or a Hrothgar? None.

P.S: If you ever get around to writing that, make sure to link it, I would love to read it! Especially when I see someone write something that they are passionate about!

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

..Bozja sucked on so many aspects, it was painful.

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I find it genuinely amusing that you hate Bozja for nearly all the reasons I enjoyed it. That you liked Werlyt's ending (that I hated lmao) comparatively is extra funny lol
Agree on the little future sight Au Ra girl tho. She sucked.

Bozja and Werlyt both get dark but I like the former so much more than the latter because it presents a war thats ugly. Werlyt ends like Stormblood ends- a neat little bow, saccharine and silly when you think about what led up to the finish line.

The overall encompassing story of Bozja was showing that war doesn't just happen, its an ugly chain of dominoes falling. The queen throwing a servant under the bus was cruel. The guards murdering an innocent to hide their secret was slimey. Generations of resentment slowly boiling under the veneer of tradition, bloody battles in the street, individuals throwing in their lot with their enemy because they hate their countrymen that much...its ugly. Its proper ugly. Bozja's story doesn't end in a musical number, it ends with a handful of people finally understanding how and why everything burned down. Bozja ends with a decent NPC body count, yeah, but what war ended without lists of senseless deaths? Without unneeded violence? Would a musical number have smoothed over 50+ years of turmoil?

Im sad it was cut short and mad that planned plot points were stuffed into the little logs for sure...but overall? I loved the story. This game as a whole is terrified of things being ugly, EW's toothless EnD oF DaYs is the perfect example of it. It wasn't perfect by any means but in Bozja we were finally (FINALLY!!!!) allowed one grimey war story.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

I find it genuinely amusing that you hate Bozja for nearly all the reasons I enjoyed it.

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I think you misunderstood us.
We were referring to the Bozjan story clamouring a lot of ideas and jumping from one narrative to the next with little to no regard for cohesiveness. My point stood from the idea that the story should have only focused on the resistance, more specifically the blades. Which were shown once and then were sacrificed for Misija's arc. To the point that when they got enthralled I felt nothing. They were supposed to be the protectors of Bozja! But it was like nothing special, they got enthralled and now we have to kill them.
If instead of going around with the ironworks and the lovestruck future lizard, we were to spend time with each of the blades and get to know them better, we would have gotten some character development for them as well as have the chance to glimpse some lore about the past of Bozja and some more, accurate, lore on Hrothgars. But we were robbed on that for Makoto salivating after Cid.
By spending time with the blades and going on missions with them we would have formed a bond we are all blades after all and have to look after each other! This would have been the perfect setting for the rest to happen, Misija unleashes her Grand mommy's power on them, and they get enthralled and mutated. The WOL would have been powerless to stop this and NOW it would have made that scene actually sad and tragic, their names would have mattered and what they became would have hit the same as Tesleen had. Now having to put your comrades in arms down so that they don't destroy what they have fought so hard to build.
And even with the story being cut short they still could have focused just on the Blades and taking revenge on Misija and the imperials. More than that it would have paired nicely with the WOL's dedication to finding a cure! So that no one has to go through what your friends had.
There is potential for the story to have been done better if they only picked 1 story thread and build upon that. But as it stands right now, Bozja's story is a mess of different threads that are not nicely laid out, but tangled in a horrible mess. With a lot of stories going nowhere and the actual story being either buried under them or you have to go out of your way to find them through the logs. And a lot of people just don't do that so a majority just goes through a pointless story that doesn't have a satisfying ending, not a happy one, but a satisfying one, an ending that feels complete. What we got looked like it would have needed a narrative map for the story.

P.S.: I do make fun of the Sugar filled bunny girl that looks like she had 1 too many coffees every morning. But honestly, she was the best character in that story. It saddens me that in a story that should have been focusing on the Hrothgar, the best character is a Viera and the Hrothgars are barely in it.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

I find it genuinely amusing that you hate Bozja for nearly all the reasons I enjoyed it. That you liked Werlyt's ending (that I hated lmao) comparatively is extra funny lol
Agree on the little future sight Au Ra girl tho. She sucked.

Bozja and Werlyt both get dark but I like the former so much more than the latter because it presents a war thats ugly. Werlyt ends like Stormblood ends- a neat little bow, saccharine and silly when you think about what led up to the finish line.

The overall encompassing story of Bozja was showing that war doesn't just happen, its an ugly chain of dominoes falling. The queen throwing a servant under the bus was cruel. The guards murdering an innocent to hide their secret was slimey. Generations of resentment slowly boiling under the veneer of tradition, bloody battles in the street, individuals throwing in their lot with their enemy because they hate their countrymen that much...its ugly. Its proper ugly. Bozja's story doesn't end in a musical number, it ends with a handful of people finally understanding how and why everything burned down. Bozja ends with a decent NPC body count, yeah, but what war ended without lists of senseless deaths? Without unneeded violence? Would a musical number have smoothed over 50+ years of turmoil?

Im sad it was cut short and mad that planned plot points were stuffed into the little logs for sure...but overall? I loved the story. This game as a whole is terrified of things being ugly, EW's toothless EnD oF DaYs is the perfect example of it. It wasn't perfect by any means but in Bozja we were finally (FINALLY!!!!) allowed one grimey war story.

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No the bozja story sucked.
"We finally get a grimy war story" yes at the cost of the newest player race being treated like garbage because some eorzean race that shouldnt be in bozja wanted power.
Not like the ENTIRE GAME has been a war story! Whether it was against dragons in hw or garleans the entire games been about war, but oh no, we have to p.o.s "war is hell" story for the only time we deign to do anything with hrothgar! And hrothgar dont even get to do anything in their own story except be cannon fodder. So yes its a wet bag of used diapers on a hot summer sidewalk.

ugh sorry for multiposting but it comes and goes.
Also sorry if that was too like...confrontational or mean, I dont mean it that way I am just upset anytime I think about how badly (frequently, repeatedly) hrothgar get screwed over. Still, STILL cant use our own base racial hair, we had no time spent on us in our native homeland sidestory, and there were no hrothgar in EW unless you count a guy in Garlemald who we never get to help despite him living in a crummy cave.
It just totally blows how obviously blatantly little it is the team cares about a player race that isnt scrawny mchuman no.5.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

I find it genuinely amusing that you hate Bozja for nearly all the reasons I enjoyed it. That you liked Werlyt's ending (that I hated lmao) comparatively is extra funny lol

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Rokke.

Where did I even say I liked Werlyt's ending?

I said that ending was more positive. That it had a sweeter ending, it wasn't a complete crapfest dumpster fire with everything set alight at the end and us just going "Welp, I'm not setting foot in this hellhole again".

In comparison to Bozja, it had a more positive ending.

Not that I thought it was any good xD I didn't even like Werlyt overall, for a myriad reasons.

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Originally Posted by Pip_Chick

Bozja was a mess

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Honestly, I think the icing on the cake was that Bozja focused not only on Hrothgars, but the Hrothgar queens who, due to technical reasons, literally don't even exist* and they were very aware of that, but went with it anyways.
It's as if you were watching, idk, Lord of the Rings but never see the ring, you just know Frodo has it - the ring itself isn't a main character, but it's the cornerstone of the whole plot and its absence would be felt even if Frodo kept saying "it's in my pocket, don't worry" during all 3 movies (specially for scenes where someone else grabs it, but I digress)

*Even when Hrothgals are added in 7.0, I highly doubt the devs would retcon them into Bozja, so the damage is already done.

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Originally Posted by Pip_Chick

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I agree that we could have spent more time with the blades to make their loss hurt more and that the lizard girl was a colossal waste of screen time but issue with making the story a more revenge on the badguys leaning is that it wouldn’t break the cycle that created Misija. The plot absolutely needed a tighter script so that in the event that it was cut short (rip ;; ) we wouldn't have to unceremoniously read the ending that happens offscreen. I will be mad about that forever.

My fav was Marsak and Im salty they didn’t let him make a bigger cameo in EW. We got some bozjan resistance cameos but he's the liaison between their resistance and the outside world. Let the man speak :c

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Originally Posted by XiRon

Not like the ENTIRE GAME has been a war story!

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As a roleplayer Bozja was delicious for coming up with a backstory for my catto and when I look at that zone I see potential for other characters. Tentatively waiting for the customization options for femhroths before I come up with the details for a second Hroth, but she will most certainly be a war vet. One thats seen ugly. This game has covered wars but they’re all Disney movie wars. You are sad for 30-60 seconds until some inspirational music plays and the devs wheel out a mouthpiece character to assure you that everyone will live happily ever after. I think the game's story should be allowed to be heavy once and a while and the devs should have faith that we will survive somber moments every now and then. It shouldn't take a guest writer to try giving a story teeth, but Im glad the guy thats known for grimy war stories tried to give us a grimy war story.

That said, please don't interpret me liking the story for me being completely happy with how Hrothgar are missing in the world at large because I do want them to have more of a presence (lore-wise theres no reason for the dudes not to). I agree with the idea that non Hroths took up too much of the Bozja and that fem hroths being absurdly absent all together dragged the plot down. A Runar-esque plucky Hroth could have absolutely replaced the gyaru bun, especially if she were a young femhroth... But the devs didnt' want to commit to showing something we couldn't (at the time, anyway) have. A shame, but here we are. If nothing else, with femhroths on the horizon I hope we'll get a peek at tribal life vs civilian life. Every lion man thus far has had a conspicuously dead wife, finally we'll be seeing some breathing ones.

I got the Far Northern outfit from the mogstation as a gift for christmas. I can't wear the hat, and that's almost four dollars of content I can't use. I can't buy pieces separately, or else I would have, but as of now that's just money SE is technically 'stealing' from viera and hrothgar buying things from the mogstation. I find this deplorable.

Also, I would look super cute with the hat on with the rest of the outfit, and the fact that I can't be is a crime.

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Originally Posted by Andycak

I got the Far Northern outfit from the mogstation as a gift for christmas. I can't wear the hat, and that's almost four dollars of content I can't use. I can't buy pieces separately, or else I would have, but as of now that's just money SE is technically 'stealing' from viera and hrothgar buying things from the mogstation. I find this deplorable.

Also, I would look super cute with the hat on with the rest of the outfit, and the fact that I can't be is a crime.

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Put in feedback about it in the client, I made sure to let them know that I was going to purchase it, and would have if it was compatible with my character's race.
Their goal is to sell outfits, so if they miss out on selling outfits because hroth and viera players don't buy outfits that are missing headgear for them, then they'll probably change it.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

It shouldn't take a guest writer to try giving a story teeth, but Im glad the guy thats known for grimy war stories tried to give us a grimy war story.

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That's, in a sense, how I feel about what we got. At least, that was what I was getting at.

Because that guy is pretty cool, he IS known for making grimy war stories. A LOT. Even the least "warfare" one out there was fine, FF12; where rather than focus on the effects of war and the action going on in it, it's all about the consequences and motivations for war to begin with.

But the way Bozja was handled was so shoddy. Both in comparison to all the rest of FF14 and to Yasumi Matsuno's own work. Off the top of my head, and keeping in mind I'm writing on a phone, so it's going to be even less thought out than usual...

For FF14, it's as XiRon said. The whole game has been a war story, but some areas more than others. We cannot compare the likes of Bozja and Ala Mhigo to Gridania and Ul'dah. Conflict has been the main motivation for FF14 as a whole, but the war aspect of the conflict is only really felt in key areas. Even if we consider "Us vs Ascians" as a war, it's not the gritty trench war for independence and survival as those were, but a proxy war of events which culminated in changes of the status quo and mass destruction. So focusing on the areas that we can compare, we have three we can compare to Bozja: Ala Mhigo, Doma and Werlyt. The overlaps are as follows. Both Werlyt and Ala Mhigo involve human experiments like Bozja does. Ala Mhigo's cultural identity was usurped to serve the Empire and further humiliate the country, which also happened in Bozja, particularly with the Gunbreakers. And Ala Mhigo's resistance was holding out in key minor areas with a lot of setbacks until external aid was provided. Just like Ala Mhigo, Bozja also suffered its fair share of back and forth. In terms of emotional impact and displays of duress during the story, Ala Mhigo shows us a curb-stomp massacre to demotivate the resistance, and we know of several issues from third-hand sources, such as Fordola's parents being the catalyst which led to her forming the Skulls. Doma also saw the bringing down of the figurehead, which was monarchical, and was beloved by a fair group of people. Ala Mhigo doesn't fully share this, as the monarchy's outlook was weakened by deranged dictators. Bozjans lost their queens.

On their own, these aspects are fine for a gritty war story. However, Bozja has striking differences that then come into play. The biggest flaw is that of time. Werlyt's story was simpler and with far less nuance, allowing the dev team to passingly brief you on the place itself, and focus on the emotional plot between Gaius and the kamikaze kids. Ala Mhigo and Doma both shared an entire expansion which tried its best to characterize the world, the people we interact with and all the stuff in them. Bozja's main conflict goes on between Misija's motivations. It has to 1 - present Misija to us and the environment she came out of, the environment she's currently in and the environment she wants. 2 - Provide enough background on the setting to justify the first of the environments she lives through. 3 - Characterize the bad guys and their endgoal. 4 - Provide us with Misija's actions and their fallout. 5 - Retaliation and subsequent closure.
And sure, it does that, but it does it in such an awkward way:
1 - Misija's story isn't the only one we're there to explore. We go there for multiple reasons both in-game and out. We go there for the Gunnhildr weapons. We go there to find out more about Bozja itself. We go there to help the resistance and make their new Blades prove their worth. Misija's plot usurps all of it.
2 - While the caste system being introduced to us, we're only told passing tales of it. We see none of it. Misija's word that she's mistreated for me fell flat when she really only had a couple nasty comments and she didn't stand up for herself. We had nothing to characterize the main lore point of the Hrothgar at the time: the Queen society. NOTHING. So Misija coming out with her being of a lower caste and suffering from it, when really she's been actually helped by Garleans, doesn't help. Like, good for her, fight against a nasty regime... BUT there's no evidence that that actually went on. If anything, her being oblivious to other people actually caring for her kind of made me feel like her characterization of her upbringing was overblown and overly dramatic. TLDR: she was whining, and it really felt things weren't as bad as they used to be, what, five thousand years ago? And it sure as hell didn't make her actions feel understandable (understanding =/= justifying, mind you), whatsoever. Fordola's actions I understand. Misija's actions? Whining.
3 - Rushed bad guys who only show up here and there to provide an ensemble of antagonistic figures for us to fight. The only two that actually were successful at it were Menenius and Lyon, yet we had Sicinius, we had Albeleo, we had Gilbrisbert, Pepega and Alcreamie or whatever their names were. The bad guys in other parts of the FF14 MSQ felt impactful and fleshed out, and at worst there was material on them to justify why we should care. These guys are just dipsh*ts we fight in FATEs and beating them up doesn't feel impactful nor cathartic. Especially not when most of the worst ones survive scott-free!!
4 - Misija's actions are easily the most problematic in all of Bozja when compared to other stories in the game. Zenos is impactful because he kills people wantonly and has gravitas, his entire existence is a foil to US. Fordola's characterized by her antagonism toward Lyse, and Yotsuyu is that toward Hien and Gosetsu. Even Valens's actions go more than hurting children and a couple hundred nameless mooks; they go against Gaius. What do Thordan, Niddhogg, Gaius, even bleeding Livia have? Establishing moments that make their actions feel impactful and hit us, the player characters, even if indirectly via our friends. The Blades were not established at all past a page telling you where they came from, so the emotional connection there was greatly lacking. And then her establishing moment, summoning Gunnhildr and fusing the Blades felt rushed. An outright slap on the face on what we had just then established in the plot: that Tempering can be reversed.
5 - The retaliation is a singular move that captures Misija and then we kind of don't do anything with her. We don't talk to her, we don't try, SHE doesn't try... And we move on to something shoehorned in: Allagan Diabolos. SIS WHERE????
Then the closure is just. "Curtains fall, ding dong the witch is dead". It doesn't feel satisfying in the slightest. Even freaking Livia had a more satisfying downfall...
And at no point do her actions feel like they had consequences which affected us. It barely inconvenienced the resistance anyway. No one mourned the loss of the Blades!!! THE HELL. They all just move and manage to beat up FATEs in Zadnor just fine without them!
Noraxia? Haurchefant? Tesleen? Hell, remember how Matsya got everyone quaking their pants? Even Gaius's kids dying had an emotional impact and it wasn't on the WoL directly, but it made us players feel something. What did the Blades do other than "o wow"?

And more so than time, those places had enough for us to explore and see. Even Ala Mhigo, who was war-torn, had something for us to see. What we got out of Bozja were two blasted zones and an underground temple with minimal context. While for the purposes of the war that's sufficient, it's not enough for it to characterize the culture that lived there. And given that a) that culture was recently introduced and b) is in dire need of content, it is greatly insufficient. The war is good to characterize the current setting for the place right now, but a race isn't just the current setting. It has an entire culture and lore behind it, and loose mentions that "Oh Allagans were here" feel incredibly shoehorned in.

Their biggest characterization is specifically related to the Queens and their former caste system. One they've now abandoned... which, on one hand, great, on the other hand, is LAZY. We didn't get to learn jack all about them, they're effectively loreless now. That is LAZY WRITING.

And then you have the Matsuno games.
- FF12 outright starts with Vaan's brother being introduced as a playable character and dying on the spot. Then we proceed to play as his little brother and see how life changed for him, leading to him being the anchor to ground Ashe who was about to Deus Vult the empire out of grief and wrath. We see Cidolfus's misunderstood madness and how it affected Balthier to be the distanced man he is. We see how A CHARACTER WHO IS LIKE MISIJA, Noah\Gabranth, gets motivation to pursue a dark path and what it entailed in the end, and how it affected his own brother who opposed him.
- FFT shows you how the struggle for power blinds everyone. And there is a huge discourse early on about chaste difference, about how even if you're helped by those with privilege, it doesn't make you one of them and you still suffer. How you're still forced to prove your worth but it doesn't amount to anything. Delita learns that the hard way once Tietra dies at the hands of Argath, a supremacist, setting him down on a path to cruelty and manipulation to rise in the ranks through underhanded methods. Misija told us as much, but we only see bad comments once and she flips. We don't see the escalation, we're only told about it in a passing way.
- Vagrant Story is a pretty simple game. It's nothing but you going around a singular town, nothing more. But there's so much to that town, so much to the characters you interact with and the plot keeps growing as you progress and works with the elements it established. At no point did you have sudden Allagan Diabolos out of the wazoo. And everything about your characters is given to you so that, in the end, it feels comprehensive.
- And trauma is very much present in Tactics Ogre LUCT. Especially Lanselot Hamilton, who we end up finding catatonic in the hospital, completely unresponsive... except for one thing. It's established early on that this guy is idealistic and wide-eyed, even after having lost his wife. He attempted suicide, but her music box helped him find resolve. He is garrisoned by one of the factions and tortured, leaving him in that state, and if you play the music box for him, he freaks out and starts screaming in terror because it was used by the antagonist to torture him. It's so simple, yet it's effective.

Matsuno's stories are dry and boring, I get it. But they're also slow burners, and that's because he actually cares to slowly introduce you the problems before the bubble pops.

Bozja just doesn't do this. It hard-focuses on rushing a plot that really shouldn't have been rushed. The dialogue was lacking, the actions contradictory and the ending unsatisfying.

And I agree with Rokke. The loss of the Blades should pose a great emotional blow for Bozjans, the destruction of Bozja Citadel and its environs should be an emotional blow for Bozjans. And if anything, everything about Dabog should have had a bigger relevance, especially given how it becomes important later on. And for roleplaying as a Hrothgar from Bozja, you can squeeze out so much drama out of the war... but the actual representation of it and how it was dealt was so freaking poor that I actually feel unmotivated to do so.

FF14 has many great conflicts, and so too do Matsuno's work. I don't understand why Bozja is so lacklustre in comparison.

/rant

What Bozja makes me want to do to everyone involved.

Because frankly? If I were the warrior of light, they'd all get a smack in the face. I legitimately had zero patience for anyone at the end.

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Originally Posted by XiRon

some eorzean race that shouldnt be in bozja

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There are Roes all over the world, though. At the very least, we know there's a clan native to the Far East. Gosetsu is the most notable, but more show up throughout Doma and Kugane.

I'm mean, I'm not disagreeing that the Bozjan queen should've been a Hrothgar, but this statement is inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

There are Roes all over the world, though. At the very least, we know there's a clan native to the Far East. Gosetsu is the most notable, but more show up throughout Doma and Kugane.

I'm mean, I'm not disagreeing that the Bozjan queen should've been a Hrothgar, but this statement is inaccurate.

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Yeah, Bozja was home to Hyurs and Roegadyn, not just Hrothgar. Hrothgar were the ruling majority, but it is justifiable to find other races around.

The only place I'd wager actually ostracised any other race were the Viera woods due to secrecy.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Yeah, Bozja was home to Hyurs and Roegadyn, not just Hrothgar. Hrothgar were the ruling majority, but it is justifiable to find other races around.

The only place I'd wager actually ostracised any other race were the Viera woods due to secrecy.

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Yes but see I went thru Bozja for hrothgar not linda lominser TWO.
They couldve had bozja be the hrothgar azim steppe but nooooo we dont (want to work on) have femgar so throw in some ff11 races we've spent the entire freaking game with.
Thats literally it too and its the implicit justification for ruining the lore of hrpthgar queens being whatever gets chosen by the religious elders of bozja bc apparently queens are chosen like the new pope, sure whatever.
Literally just "we're too lazy to work on the star race of a new country" and you cant even say muh covid or the crew also working on new savage content or ff16 because SOMEHOW, ON THE WINGS AND PRAYERS OF ANGELS, they had time to work on male viera, who are not lore critical to anything even vaguely in game. "but female viera" all come from ff12 transplanted golmore which is a female only society of viera unlike every single hrothgar in game telling you about THEIR queen or their wives.

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Originally Posted by XiRon

Literally just "we're too lazy to work on the star race of a new country" and you cant even say muh covid or the crew also working on new savage content or ff16 because SOMEHOW, ON THE WINGS AND PRAYERS OF ANGELS, they had time to work on male viera, who are not lore critical to anything even vaguely in game. "but female viera" all come from ff12 transplanted golmore which is a female only society of viera unlike every single hrothgar in game telling you about THEIR queen or their wives.

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You got a point there but we all knew that was entirely and uniquely because of fanservice....and maybe because the male Viera crowd were acting like rabid dogs about it. And even then, male Viera came out in EW so it would've been too late anyways....though I guess they could have pulled a Fran and show a unique npc earlier but it may have been too early, idk.

They made male Viera because they wanted to, just like they're making female Hrothgar because they want to. Yeah, Viera got implemented first - I imagine they were also a lot easier to make, and with them came quality of life and customization options for both males and the existing females. Blaming and putting down the other race in similar shoes in terms of completeness/not having access to everything doesn't help at all. Everybody here is on the same side in terms of wanting access to more options, more headgear and indeed female Hrothgar.

Admittedly I don't feel the same rancor regarding Bozja. It was whatever. Some fun instances, I guess. I absolutely adore FFXII (it's my third favourite behind IX and XIV) but XIV isn't XII and even the things in XIV that came from XII are different in this context. I also loved the hell out of Endwalker as an expansion. Shadowbringers and Endwalker squarely rooted XIV among my favourite games ever.

The game is always changing and evolving. People genuinely thought they would never expand hairstyle options for Viera or Hrothgar, yet they have. People expected pleny of gear to be gender locked, and now a lot of it isn't. One day Viera and Hrothgar will have significantly greater headgear compatibility. One day female Hrothgar will be in the game. Furthermore, now that all the races are in the game there are going to be opportunities to introduce more Hrothgar and Viera characters. I wouldn't be surprised if a female Hrothgar became a core character going forward into 7.0 once they are implemented.

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Originally Posted by Caro178

They made male Viera because they wanted to, just like they're making female Hrothgar because they want to. Yeah, Viera got implemented first - I imagine they were also a lot easier to make, and with them came quality of life and customization options for both males and the existing females. Blaming and putting down the other race in similar shoes in terms of completeness/not having access to everything doesn't help at all. Everybody here is on the same side in terms of wanting access to more options, more headgear and indeed female Hrothgar.

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Oh I'm sorry, was that what your race said when they didn't give you lot Male Viera on the spot? Or was it "Hrothgar stole Male Viera"?

If I remember correctly, what the devs wanted was Male Hrothgar and Female Viera, but clearly that didn't stop you guys from clamouring :CRAB: MALE VIERA :CRAB: on their streams, did it?

...seriously though? I know you're right in some aspects, because it ultimately doesn't matter. But don't come with that crap when everyone with half a brain and paid attention knows damned well what happened.

And yeah. At least from my part, when I compare the stuff that came from FF12, I compare it because the devs specifically brought in the guy who made Ivalice to begin with. So I had an expectation of his quality, not of the content. The content should be adapted to FF14. And the same goes for anyone who thinks Hrothgar HAVE to follow what FF10 said about Ronso; we're not the Ronso. Now, if people think the two races are better executed in 12 and 10 in comparison to 14, then let them say so. In fact, where you fall short, again, is the fact that you say that... but you don't acknowledge how your own lore is 90% ripped straight out of FF12 directly with super minimal adjustments.

And lastly... "People genuinely thought they would never expand hairstyle options for Viera or Hrothgar, yet they have."

...I'm sorry, but are we going to ignore the context of how long it took and how it happened for Hrothgar?
Easy for a Viera to say, not gonna lie, you guys have had quite a fair bit handed to you on a rush. While the devs were too busy "doing Male Viera because they wanted to", Hrothgar hadn't seen a dime in their lives, whereas Viera actually got hairstyles. Hairstyles which were then ported over to Hrothgar, because there just weren't anything better, apparently.

Because yeah, great, it happened. And yet people have trepidation over their future, hmmmmmmmmm i wonder why i wonder why...

Did anyone forget how, because they didn't release Male Viera, the devs were pressured with comments on their streams, people demanding for the opposite genders before the races' problems got resolved and even harassed with people calling them homophobic for some reason?

Because I do:
Source 1
Source 2
Source 3 (Comment Section)
Source 4
Source 5

So no. Be real, they didn't do it because "they wanted to". They caved to constant nagging because people kept asking for it. Some less pleasantly than others.

Where do you see Hrothgars behave this way? I won't deny there were people asking for Femgars, but they were in no way as numerous enough to warrant a change, which leads me to think it's happening out of fairness.

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Originally Posted by XiRon

... unlike every single hrothgar in game telling you about THEIR queen or their wives.

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*Dead wives.
Regardless I was so done when I heard this bull about the way the Queen was elected. I thought it was needlessly religious and going against the Queen Gunhildr lore! She was not elected as a leader because she was good at reading stars. She was chosen as a leader because she was a strong warrior who gathered all Hrothgar on her side!
I would have loved if instead of this pope thing, the Queen was chosen through a fighting tournament. All female Hrothgar could enter and the strongest one wins and gets to become the new Gunhildr.
But that would have made more sense I guess and we can't have that in the story of the thirsty lizard after all.

Something I just really want for hrothgar is for hrothgar to get Windcaller before viera. Its absolute crap 2 of the 3 hair options from Bozja are usable on viera but not hrothgar, to begin with, but a simple "hrothgar hair" google search will invariably bring up images of moddedgars in the windcaller hair. It originated as obtainable from bozja, we SHOULD have gotten all tje bozjan stuff usable for hrothgar, including the bozjan gearset hats (someone is so dead asleep on the job it aint even funny anymore its just pathetic), before we got the wet garbage 2B hair for godssake. But oh no. Mannah from heavem rains down on viera heads every patch meanwhile hrothgar are so badly treated despite fixing the ear issue in 6.2 in August when 6.1 dropped on the korean servers they had to be cursed with earless styles for no reason. Well not no reason, the reason is hrothgar got none of the 6.1 styles viera got for 6.2 so they stretched hrothgar treatments out deliberately to work on them less. I sincerely believe they screwed over hrothgar on both EW launch (nothing new, couldnt even use their own faces styles wo fantasia) and 6.1 so they could spend more time on their fave new toys.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

...

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I really wouldn't know because I wasn't around for any of that. I've been playing the game for going on 3 years now, but I certainly never demanded a thing regarding male Viera and I never posted a thing here until we started getting updates around 6.1. I just think the criticism should be directed at SE, not at Viera players or players of any other race. We are all on the same boat imho. Everybody here has complaints, and those complaints really shouldn't be about each other.

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Originally Posted by Caro178

I really wouldn't know because I wasn't around for any of that. I've been playing the game for going on 3 years now, but I certainly never demanded a thing regarding male Viera and I never posted a thing here until we started getting updates around 6.1. I just think the criticism should be directed at SE, not at Viera players or players of any other race. We are all on the same boat imho. Everybody here has complaints, and those complaints really shouldn't be about each other.

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While you're technically correct that we should all be on the same side, keep in mind that hrothgar players have had to deal with insulting comments from other players far more than any other race, from people hating hroths because they're the "furry" race (even though plenty of non-furry players play them), to outright telling hroth players they should shut up and get over it and live with what they've got (especially insulting because it's always a femqo'te), to absolute bs like hroths ruined Viera release/are ruining other races. So while maybe a few of my fellow hroth players are a bit too heated in their last posts, you can understand why and can maybe see why your comments can, accidentally and unintentionally I'm sure, draw out a more combative reaction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caro178

They made male Viera because they wanted to, just like they're making female Hrothgar because they want to. Yeah, Viera got implemented first - I imagine they were also a lot easier to make, and with them came quality of life and customization options for both males and the existing females. Blaming and putting down the other race in similar shoes in terms of completeness/not having access to everything doesn't help at all. Everybody here is on the same side in terms of wanting access to more options, more headgear and indeed female Hrothgar.

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Here is how I see it. And I don't want to sound mean. I do like Viera and think they are neat, they are not my favourite, but my friends like them and I got good experiences with my friends, and by association, I had good experiences with Viera. With all of that being said the thing that you wrote is very one-sided, unfair and a bit cruel.

With the coming of 6.0, Viera got their male counterpart, headgear and hairstyles. All the while Hrothgar was given nothing.

It is very easy for you to think that things got better when you got what you wanted. On the other hand, Hrothgar was left again with "Please look forward to it" TM.

Male Viera got implemented first because the fans were pushing for it, through the crab emoji spam of the live letters, the continuous harassment that the devs got and the bad publicity from the news and articles on the games. It was not because they wanted to make male Viera, it was because they wanted to end the harassment. They are more free with the making of female Hrothgar because while the fans want them as well, they don't go to the lengths the Male Viera fanatics have gone.

The quality of life and customisation were, as stated above, Viera only. The Male Viera and hairstyles were only given to Viera while Hrothgar were told to wait for 6.1 (and we all know what happened in 6.1).

I would love to not have to blame the Viera or put them down, but the truth of the matter is that it is very clear who is the favourite child between Hrothgar and Viera. So in all honesty I don't blame you, I blame square for their blatant favouritism.

I would have liked more if in 6.0 we got Male Viera and more customisation options for Hrothgar. I think that would have been fair. As it stands right now, Viera were given a coin while Hrothgar were left with an empty palm.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

While you're technically correct that we should all be on the same side, keep in mind that hrothgar players have had to deal with insulting comments from other players far more than any other race, from people hating hroths because they're the "furry" race (even though plenty of non-furry players play them), to outright telling hroth players they should shut up and get over it and live with what they've got (especially insulting because it's always a femqo'te), to absolute bs like hroths ruined Viera release/are ruining other races. So while maybe a few of my fellow hroth players are a bit too heated in their last posts, you can understand why and can maybe see why your comments can, accidentally and unintentionally I'm sure, draw out a more combative reaction.

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dont get it confused I have no problem with viera or even mviera but the problem is the absolutely blatant favoritism.
"fans like viera more" ok and nobody plays froe or felf but ya still find the time to keep them updated every patch cycle, so like show a race who existed BEFORE mviera a mite more love please god just once?
Like I know viera are getting windcaller in 6.3 because it should(?) be next in line in their bizarro hair update cycle, and I really dont want hrothgar to have to wait til MAYBE 6.5 much less some time an expansion later to get the one redeeming jewel from doing bozja content.
Theres also that fact its been 3 years and not one event has starred a hrothgar npc but male viera got to be the star of xmas because...sure?