Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

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Originally Posted by OMGJesuis66

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Wow the level of mental gymnastics your pulling. Bravo, I applaud your ability to ignore reality. You completely disregarded the majority's actual complaints to justify what you believe, completely ignoring the notion that you simply have bad taste. Wuk Lamat is a poorly written character that should never have been a main focus, and the story is just as poorly conceived as her.

Please go outside, touch grass, you clearly need. Or at minimum go take in some actual good stories, with good characters, and good writing so you can realize just how bad DT and Wuk Lamat are.

I have a feeling like this thread goes through the same loop of arguments every 30 hours or so. The same arguments with no indication of people having read the previous 181 pages. If people are not reading what has already been argued and why those arguments were not convincing the last time they were brought up, then this is not a discussion forum but a serial soapbox.

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Originally Posted by OMGJesuis66

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Players wanting the character they, themselves, are playing to be the protagonist is not an 'obsession'. In fact, it's quite correct.

There's the idea that the 'Hero' of the story and the 'Protagonist' are one and the same. This is often true, but is not always true. For instance: Assume that the story is about, perhaps, a noble knight sallying forth on his quest to slay a dragon, with the perspective being that of his squire. His squire, while not the one who achieves grand and glorious goals, still contributes their own unique perspective and position to the story.

Man of La Mancha, before you ask.

It was alright for Wuk Lamat to be 'The Hero', at least in a literary/story construction sense. The problem was that they tried to make her the protagonist. They essentially just had the player character standing there contributing little, if anything, but to serve as Wuk Lamat's hand. We were sockpuppeted by her, and that's the problem.

This leads into my next comment: Our story was not done in Endwalker. If it was, we'd be moving on to new characters to play.

The Hydaelyn-Zodiark story is over. The Ascian story is (theoretically) over. The player character's story is not. The trip to Tural should have been part of that, but because of how hard they pushed Wuk Lamat, it doesn't feel like that to players. It feels deeply, deeply unsatisfying.

Part of that is that for us, the stakes were yanked out from under us and then built up again, repeatedly. 6.55 we're told that the then-unnamed Zarool Ja can't win or he'll bring war to the continent. Then we get to Tural and are told 'yeah we can't build ships and don't have airships'.

...Ooookay. Well then what about-

Gulool Ja Ja: "Yeah if nobody's suited for the throne they ain't getting it."

...Oookay, so there go *our* personal stakes in the story. Zarool Ja isn't going to be a threat. He's not getting the throne, because he's not suited for it and ultimately Gulool knows it. I mean, kudos to the big guy for actually thinking it through- two heads are better than one I guess- but it undercuts our investment. Now the only reason you're sticking around is... Wuk Lamat. It forced the story stakes entirely onto her as a character, and basically erased your meaningfulness in the story for a *hefty* portion of it.

Then Alexandria happens. Sweet! This is your wheelhouse and... why is she here? Why is she taking the lead? Why are we just standing here?

Whatever.

Dungeons! Bossfights! Queen Eternal, Interphos is a banger, let's-

"spheeeen."

...Yeah. That's why Wuk was unsatisfying and frustrating to people.

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Originally Posted by Alchemii

Wow the level of mental gymnastics your pulling. Bravo, I applaud your ability to ignore reality. You completely disregarded the majority's actual complaints to justify what you believe, completely ignoring the notion that you simply have bad taste. Wuk Lamat is a poorly written character that should never have been a main focus, and the story is just as poorly conceived as her.

Please go outside, touch grass, you clearly need. Or at minimum go take in some actual good stories, with good characters, and good writing so you can realize just how bad DT and Wuk Lamat are.

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I will say she's not written that badly. Just that she should be more of a side character and not the most prominent spoken role we've had in the entire game.

Only the English version of Wuk Lamat is kinda meh. I liked the JP version a lot. Not as much as maybe someone like Graha or Yshtola but good enough. The one complain I do have is that our involvement was a bit too little throughout.

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Originally Posted by BigBoom550

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The distinction I've seen is protagonist vs. main character: Protagonist is usually the point-of-view character who moves the story, main character is who the story happens to (or it could be the same character doing both). Hero is more of an archetype that could be both or neither.

Think Zidane vs. Vivi and Garnet, for like the first two-thirds of IX. Honestly even Steiner is more of a main character until half way of the story. Zidane doesn't go through much development or personal stakes himself, remaining a pretty static heroic rogue, but from the moment he meets each character, he's immediately pushing them to grow. And when the writer understands how the roles work, there's no "competing" over who the main character is, because they are both/all driving each other forward.

WoL completely fails as a protagonist in DT, because they do so very little to drive the story or other characters. When your protagonist does neither, and they aren't the main character either, well, that's bad writing.


EDIT: Epecially when WoL is also supposed to be the hero archetype - Something that's hard to reconcile with passivity as well.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

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Exactly. Whatever names or nuance you use, the fact is that the WoL is... barely there. Like, a huge amount of what we 'did' in Dawntrail was not something the Warrior of Light, or even a 'highly skilled warrior' was notably required for, or played that way.

I think part of the reason people like the Zoraal Ja fight but not Valigarmanda (Which I found to be very fun overall, personally) is the buildup to the Zoraal Ja fight is at least there. You've got, outside of Wuk Lamat, an actual emotional buildup and pacing. He feels like a threat. We're *told* Valigarmanda's a threat, that Valigarmanda can kill so many, but we... don't see anything. We don't have a cutscene of Valigarmanda either now or in the past destroying villages, we just hear- over and over- 'Valigarmanda bad!' and then we kill it.

To make the comparison because they're the same sort of creatures: With the Four Lords, we were told that losing yourself to Aramitama is bad, and then we see that with Suzaku and Seiryu. One loses herself and loses track of reality during the fight, acting like we're a long-dead love and clearly delusional. Seiryu surrenders to it voluntarily and becomes audibly more violent and unhinged. Not to a Zenos-level, but clearly off.

...Honestly forgot until I thought about it that Byakko and Genbu were the only two where the plan went right.

We see Valigarmanda in an ice block, we're told Valigarmanda's bad, we run around and follow a... pointy hand... and then we stab it in the face and it dies. It wasn't a Primal that took someone with the Echo to 'safely' combat, it wasn't an Auspice audibly in the throes of Aramatama intoxication, it was just... a big, angry lizard. It felt like a dungeon boss.

Zoraal Ja, meanwhile, felt like a threat. We saw him kill Gulool Ja Ja, who was a solo instance fight. We saw the devastation Alexandrian tech wrought. By the time we fight him, he's a known, powerful, and capable threat- one now drinking himself mad with power.

It's also why the last moment with Wuk is so frustrating. It felt like a return to form, with the boss acknowledging us for the whole darned reason we were sought out- our strength- only for Wuk to magically surpass that as well. Insult to injury was that we didn't get Blessing of Light, or Released Dynamis or some other buff that exists outside of Wonk LeMatt. No, we get Wuk Lamat's buff! Because she can do that now y'know. Because she's the Dawnservant.

I haven't gone back into Queen Eternal. I'm not willing to sit through that cutscene again. It sounds way better in other languages but the damage is done.

The focus of wuk lamat instead of us or even the scion remind me of wow story structure and its why i cant enjoy wow at all.

In wow, you are not the main character in the story, you just simply a guy who later hail as the champion by major npc, but every cutscene happen, combat scene, dialogue scene, etc, you never be the prominent one, npc do the talk for you, in combat scene they are the one who deliver the killing blow, you just stood there... Doing nothing.

This dt expansion made me feel that way, it feel like iam just on someone errand. Yes i was "hired" to become wuk lamat guard or something like that, but realistic speaking we should be the leader of the group or at least on even standing level with wuk lamat in term of role and "screentime" but instead all we got is wuk lamat and the scion do all the talk and scene while we on the sideline just standing and do smile expression (like seriously you should noticed it by now how many times these happen, the scene where wuk lamat talk then cut to us slowly smiling or nodding expression) like we seriously just there for moral support and nothing else

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Originally Posted by BigBoom550

I think part of the reason people like the Zoraal Ja fight but not Valigarmanda (Which I found to be very fun overall, personally) is the buildup to the Zoraal Ja fight is at least there. You've got, outside of Wuk Lamat, an actual emotional buildup and pacing. He feels like a threat. We're *told* Valigarmanda's a threat, that Valigarmanda can kill so many, but we... don't see anything. We don't have a cutscene of Valigarmanda either now or in the past destroying villages, we just hear- over and over- 'Valigarmanda bad!' and then we kill it.

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I feel like SB was the last expansion they put the trials under some proper effort, it's been pretty a lazy farce ever since. Back in ARR every primal has a long prepration phase where you see the logistic of the fight being worked out. But nowaday most trial fight feels like random encounter whack-a-mole. Something pop up, we whack it down at the moment of notice.

If they don't plan to put in a proper prep I hope they would tune down the narrative to match. The fight are cool but the presentations doesn't really match the scale.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I stared in silence a moment upon opening this. How can a game that generates this much money not deserve a bigger budget for the writing team? Someone writing a couple side quests with that resume should never have been handed the MSQ for a multi-million dollar product.

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The CEO of Square Enix invested a bunch of money into NFTs and lost the company $140 million.

Source: https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-indus...ppedand-where/

I would not be surprised if that's why this expansion just seems a lot more poor quality and lower budget in general.

They also invested in so many projects and mobile games that all failed. FFXIV and 7 remakes are basically the only thing that is keeping the company afloat - and from the looks of it, they never reinvest much of those profits back into the game (mocap cutscenes and voice acting remain minimal and even less than before etc)

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Originally Posted by BigBoom550

Gulool Ja Ja: "Yeah if nobody's suited for the throne they ain't getting it."

...Oookay, so there go *our* personal stakes in the story. Zarool Ja isn't going to be a threat. He's not getting the throne, because he's not suited for it and ultimately Gulool knows it. I mean, kudos to the big guy for actually thinking it through- two heads are better than one I guess- but it undercuts our investment. .

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This quick chat after the fight was probably the ONLY part of the succession storyline that made sense. It should have just been done at the very start, GJJ recognizes us as a power (in fact maybe even has intel on us) then says "Yeah basically all my kids are horribly unsuited in one way or another, including Wuk Lamat, she's kind but also a hapless idiot. As a god warrior saviour who happens to be here on holiday could I ask you to just keep an eye on things and make sure she doesn't burn herself grabbing hot objects, maybe at the end of this one of them will grow up, if not well them's the breaks".

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Originally Posted by Zaniel

This quick chat after the fight was probably the ONLY part of the succession storyline that made sense. It should have just been done at the very start, GJJ recognizes us as a power (in fact maybe even has intel on us) then says "Yeah basically all my kids are horribly unsuited in one way or another, including Wuk Lamat, she's kind but also a hapless idiot. As a god warrior saviour who happens to be here on holiday could I ask you to just keep an eye on things and make sure she doesn't burn herself grabbing hot objects, maybe at the end of this one of them will grow up, if not well them's the breaks".

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Which is also why it was immediately interrupted by the house cat, because the camera hadn't been on her for a few minutes.

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Originally Posted by Zaniel

This quick chat after the fight was probably the ONLY part of the succession storyline that made sense. It should have just been done at the very start, GJJ recognizes us as a power (in fact maybe even has intel on us) then says "Yeah basically all my kids are horribly unsuited in one way or another, including Wuk Lamat, she's kind but also a hapless idiot. As a god warrior saviour who happens to be here on holiday could I ask you to just keep an eye on things and make sure she doesn't burn herself grabbing hot objects, maybe at the end of this one of them will grow up, if not well them's the breaks".

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I'd actually be pretty fine if Wuk Lamat was treated like the idiot she is in the beginning and then people eventually warm up to her at the end. People shouldn't be praising her like a toddler from the get go for no reason. In fact my first impression was that they might go down that route when you see everyone just leave the palace grounds before she even comes out to be introduced like the rest of the claimants. That could've been an interesting story line

Instead everyone just instantly likes her. Which makes our purpose kinda pointless. Her preppy talks should've fallen short and made her look like an idiot, she should've been beaten down a little more because she had no actual plans for the throne other than screaming peace at the top of her lungs, at the end of the expansion she should've had a clear goal for where she wanted to take Tural into the future instead of upkeeping the status quo that could fall apart at any moment when face with such a do nothing leader.

If you put Wuk Lamat in any scenario that isn't Dawn Trail she would fail miserably, she gets by because Tural is written by somebody who apparently doesn't understand politics or group tensions and that everyone and anyone will just instantly get along when somebody tells them too.

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Originally Posted by Garolymar

everyone and anyone will just instantly get along when somebody tells them too.

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Let's be honest here, not everyone and anyone gets along just for being told to.

Sometimes they have to be shielded from a bird attack or be fed tacos first.

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Originally Posted by Garolymar

I'd actually be pretty fine if Wuk Lamat was treated like the idiot she is in the beginning and then people eventually warm up to her at the end. People shouldn't be praising her like a toddler from the get go for no reason. In fact my first impression was that they might go down that route when you see everyone just leave the palace grounds before she even comes out to be introduced like the rest of the claimants. That could've been an interesting story line

Instead everyone just instantly likes her. Which makes our purpose kinda pointless. Her preppy talks should've fallen short and made her look like an idiot, she should've been beaten down a little more because she had no actual plans for the throne other than screaming peace at the top of her lungs, at the end of the expansion she should've had a clear goal for where she wanted to take Tural into the future instead of upkeeping the status quo that could fall apart at any moment when face with such a do nothing leader.

If you put Wuk Lamat in any scenario that isn't Dawn Trail she would fail miserably, she gets by because Tural is written by somebody who apparently doesn't understand politics or group tensions and that everyone and anyone will just instantly get along when somebody tells them too.

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Yeah.
The biggest problem in all that is that Tural in the MSQ is already perfect. If she was allowed to fail once or twice and learn then it would have been better.
Make it so the harvest actually NEEDED technology to be safes. (Koana)
Make it so the bandits weren’t treated as „those poor souls“ but actually be held responsible for killing, kidnapping and stealing. (Zoral Ja)
Make it so the Mamool Ja have an actual good reason to look for the two headed ones like look at what GJJ did. He FIRST got tobte peacetalk with power and then with understanding. (BJJ)

That way she could have learned that sometimes there have to be other ways besides peace and happiness and her applying Koana as DS also would have had more meaning then seeming like pity tbh.

I think in that way her own resolve for peace would have also been more believable instead of „I have such a big heart uwu“.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Let's be honest here, not everyone and anyone gets along just for being told to.

Sometimes they have to be shielded from a bird attack or be fed tacos first.

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It is actually insane how we've come from Varis trying to justify his country's cruelty to the Eorzeans and also calling out their own and telling them flat out that blood and violence is the only way things will be resolved between the Garlean Empire and the Alliance, to whatever the hell was going on in Tural. Like do they think children play MMOs nowadays cause that's what Dawntrail feels like. The baby expansion that can only pay lip service to topics like racism and death, and loss but won't actually get into them.

https://youtu.be/nlqCq4ktDZ0?si=B_hMFmf7zyEL-FAW&t=392

I feel so sorry for all the people being this mad about a video game.

I haven't finished EW yet and after reading this topic, I am dragging my heels to actually finishing it. I came back after a 3 months break and did purchase DT with early access, but didn't use that. On the last stretch of EW and I have no desire to have my playtime ruined by a neutered housecat.

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Originally Posted by Shialan

I feel so sorry for all the people being this mad about a video game.

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I mean, for many, it's not just a cheap video game product. For some, it means their pocket money, for others, it means a sum of money 3 meals worth. Dawntrail is not just a cheap product, it's quite expensive for many people, including me. Therefore, it's their right to voice their discontents about the product/game they bought with their hard earn money.

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Originally Posted by Shialan

I feel so sorry for all the people being this mad about a video game.

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This is not a free game. People pay for a subscription and expansions. They gift each other money to stay subscribed. They buy merchandise to support the developers and purchase expensive fanfest tickets to feel part of the community.

When these developers offer their loyal fanbase a mediocre, subpar story and experience, is it reasonable to expect those who have invested so much time, passion, and money to simply toss it all aside?

It’s a waste of time to try to educate people like you on this matter because it’s likely you are bored with the game and came here to make this statement with malicious intent to spark some responses. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be here in this discussion.

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Originally Posted by NiceNox

I mean, for many, it's not just a cheap video game product. For some, it means their pocket money, for others, it means a sum of money 3 meals worth. Dawntrail is not just a cheap product, it's quite expensive for many people, including me. Therefore, it's their right to voice their discontents about the product/game they bought with their hard earn money.

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I had to save 5 months to buy this extension.


And even IF I didn't like it, I would not create 10s of threads just shitting on the game. I would move on.



Yes, criticism is important. But 90% of the posts in here are just people either not understanding what they just played or mindlessly shitting on everything they can find.

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Originally Posted by Shialan

I feel so sorry for all the people being this mad about a video game.

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And yet you are still here, reading this thread. Why do you do this to yourself if it makes you sad, I wonder?

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Originally Posted by Shialan

I feel so sorry for all the people being this mad about a video game.

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I also feels sorry for the people who so obsesses with other people opinion about a video game

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Originally Posted by Shialan

I had to save 5 months to buy this extension.


And even IF I didn't like it, I would not create 10s of threads just shitting on the game. I would move on.



Yes, criticism is important. But 90% of the posts in here are just people either not understanding what they just played or mindlessly shitting on everything they can find.

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Ok you wouldn't do that.
Not everyone in the world is you. Lots of people enjoy discussion about the game they play.
I don't understand this mentality that everyone should think and act like you, you're the odd one out and aren't interested or like the discussion. You should move on and forget about it instead of coming in and arguing about why arguing is stupid. It's more like you're wasting your time more than wasting the people in the thread's time.

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Originally Posted by Shialan

I feel so sorry for all the people being this mad about a video game.

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Oh and I feel so sorry for you being mad at people having opinions and constructive discussions about a video game

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Originally Posted by Shialan

But 90% of the posts in here are just people either not understanding what they just played.

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Oh, we fully understand what we just played. And we understand why it is the way it is. That is why we're so pissed off.

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Originally Posted by Shialan

I feel so sorry for all the people being this mad about a video game.

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Why do I have the feeling you are commenting this because you're a brand loyalist and you cant take it that people are criticizing your "perfect game"?

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And even IF I didn't like it, I would not create 10s of threads just shitting on the game. I would move on.

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It's ironic then that you are here, reading said LONG ASS thread and you care enough to comment this instead of as you said "moving on".

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Originally Posted by Shialan

I had to save 5 months to buy this extension.


And even IF I didn't like it, I would not create 10s of threads just shitting on the game. I would move on.



Yes, criticism is important. But 90% of the posts in here are just people either not understanding what they just played or mindlessly shitting on everything they can find.

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But I really like this game and the story because it has, in the past, been very good. That is why people are expressing discontent with it, because they KNOW this team can and has done better.

petition to remove wuk lamat from future expansions pls ?

https://i.imgur.com/yx1EEwo.png

Didn't even make it to the top 10 lmao

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Didn't even make it to the top 10 lmao

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I haven't finished the msq, for obvious reasons, but I understand she also ended up below a character that was introduced a week ago? Hilarious and what she deserves.

Otis being below the one-gag Hrothgar in the side-character department is a damn crime though.

I can only assume his JP actor sounded super obnoxious or something.

It's crazy that Honey B usurped her with only 3 days of existing

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Otis being below the one-gag Hrothgar in the side-character department is a damn crime though.

I can only assume his JP actor sounded super obnoxious or something.

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Apparently Wuk Evu's schtick is something more oriented towards Japanese audiences

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

https://i.imgur.com/yx1EEwo.png

Didn't even make it to the top 10 lmao

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I'd agree with the list, but Cahciua at Number 2? Huh...well I guess there are some things you don't have to understand, just accept. :D

Still glad Wok The Cat isn't on the list at all, though. I would have been even more surprised if she made it Top 10, knowing that the japanese fanbase isn't being too fond of her as well.

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Originally Posted by Aniise

I'd agree with the list, but Cahciua at Number 2? Huh...well I guess there are some things you don't have to understand, just accept. :D

Still glad Wok The Cat isn't on the list at all, though. I would have been even more surprised if she made it Top 10, knowing that the japanese fanbase isn't being too fond of her as well.

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It's the fussy little bunbun. She won my heart with that line.

She is a mommy, so I am not surprised.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

https://i.imgur.com/yx1EEwo.png

Didn't even make it to the top 10 lmao

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Hahaha, this is hilarious. I hope the stupid cat didnt even make top 20

I still can't get over Wuk Lamat having everyone call her Llama Tea. I REALLY REALLY hate that. I don't know, it's just having a person you barely know telling you to call them something that has no meaning to you. It feels so forced, like she forced us to call her by that and it's just so aggravating.

She just goes "call me this" and it's like I've only known her for like a few days or week and now I have to do something that I don't want to. It's so weird in the context of FFXIV, because we don't really do that. Then having everyone change and call her that, even though we barely care about her because we barely know her.

Wuk Lamat making people change in weird ways to adore her and whatever, just feels terrible and makes a lot of everyone else's characterization feel weird and awkward. Makes me worried that more characterization is going to get screwed up because it has to adhere to Wuk. Hopefully with the poll that push more for those 10 characters and ditch Wuk.