How to Dragoon per Second: A DPS Paradigm

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

DRG is not abandoned. DRG is waiting for Tuesday.

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We may find out on Tuesday what the hundreds of spears, lances, polearms and tridents sound like being tossed into the trash at once.

We might be pleasantly surprised ^^; Let's try and keep the hope alive...(optimistic) haha

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Originally Posted by Khel

We may find out on Tuesday what the hundreds of spears, lances, polearms and tridents sound like being tossed into the trash at once.

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If they cannot match the MSQ capabilities of a mere i70 spear...
http://i.imgur.com/xTQndch.jpg

Considering how much backlash there is in the Japanese community, I have high hopes something will be changed for the better!

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

Considering how much backlash there is in the Japanese community, I have high hopes something will be changed for the better!

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I appreciate your optimism, but I am keeping my expectations as low as possible so not to be as dissapointed as I was at SB launch

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Originally Posted by Sparhwk

Dedicated theory crafters can blow the devs out of the water. The problem is the devs in every game are super stubborn and will never explain the real reason why they make certain changes. It probably stings really fierce when a player can show you how stupid you are so it's eaiser to just tell the player to stfu and deal with. Cause in the end there is little we can do.

Assuming the devs have the same info then they should be able to see why some melee or other classes are suffering and with feedback can fix it. Instead we get yoshi telling us DRG provide amazing group damage when we can eaisly prove otherwise. I want to know what his data is showing how great we are. Cause the only time I see DRG doing close to a SAM or others is when they get balance at like 80%+ uptime and the SAM isn't in that party.

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you talked like you fully understand their design environment and constraints

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Originally Posted by MelvinK

you talked like you fully understand their design environment and constraints

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After you watch games develop over the years you get a good idea of how devs work if not how they think. When you see them take a class that's ahead and drop it to the bottom or vise versa in the span of a month then you know bullshit is happening. Constraints only have meaning when you're doing new things. Constraints happen when making a dungeon, new monsters, dialogue for story, animation or adding new skills. You know hings that actually take a ton of time to work on cause they are creating something new.

Minor changes like potency numbers, buff timers, stat changes and the like are not constraints. Those are dials they tune up or down with little thought or effort. And misuse of those dials can change the power of a class from a god to a child on the dev's whims.

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Originally Posted by Sparhwk

After you watch games develop over the years you get a good idea of how devs work if not how they think. ...And misuse of those dials can change the power of a class from a god to a child on the dev's whims.

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Unfortunately, its not always a Dev's decision that determines how a class (de)evolves over the course of a game's lifetime. There is always those above them calling the shots and more often than not the Dev's, regardless of whether or not they agree, will have to follow those orders. Without being there, its wrong to put the blame solely on them simply because they write the code.

It's like when gamer's blame the bugs in the game on the QA resource - more often than not, the QA found those bugs and those above them chose to ignore them.

I believe Melvin is referring to the work environment of the Dev Team as a whole. While the XIV team has done a great job at listening to consumer feed back and giving the players a lot of quality of life changes throughout this game's life time, there are a lot of factors that goes into the decision making on how to balance jobs and content, and it is more than just listening to the gripes of the players.

Just because you read the patch notes in correlation with how the community reacts, that doesn't give you a full understanding on how the Devs make their design choices. There are multiple teams at work to ensure that the content is in harmony with each other to the best of their ability.

I guess since the Devs are committed to making us a support role "A DPS Paradigm" will start to get buried in the forum. =/ end of an era, how sad.

We will have to wait and see obviously, but the proposed DRG changes are promising in theory imo. I dont think DRG is dead.

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Originally Posted by Nerva3xO

We will have to wait and see obviously, but the proposed DRG changes are promising in theory imo. I dont think DRG is dead.

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are there official changes proposed all i saw was the "we want to fix it but dont know how"

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Originally Posted by YiznoBergerFett

are there official changes proposed all i saw was the "we want to fix it but dont know how"

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• Mirage Dive animation lock reduction
• Dragon Sight 6 yalms -> 12 yalms
• Sonic Thrust combo extends BotD by 10s
• Initial BotD duration 20s, up from 15s
• Elusive Jump cooldown 30 seconds

I think there was a mention of small potency buffs (no specifics), but I can't find that at the moment.

That was from the Live Letter? Weird. The translation I saw from the question was simply that Dragoon's will be boosted in a way that is in line with their uniqueness and playstyle, or some claptrap like that.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

That was from the Live Letter? Weird. The translation I saw from the question was simply that Dragoon's will be boosted in a way that is in line with their uniqueness and playstyle, or some claptrap like that.

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I think during the actual live letter he went into more depth; on the nova crystalis twitter it has everything he said including the acknowledgement that LotD takes too long, and that they will give potency buffs. I think this means the potency buffs wont be all around, but focusing on the DRG abilities (Jumps, GSK, Nastrond).

It is also on the front page of the reddit megathread.

Fingers crossed, but I'm not expecting much. The elusive reduction doesn't make sense to me, and I use it more than most to move between adds or in and out of mechanics

Well 0 reason to take Diversion now, so that's cool. Also will help dodging Thunder III's in Deltascape 4.0.

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Originally Posted by Soulforge

• Mirage Dive animation lock reduction
• Dragon Sight 6 yalms -> 12 yalms
• Sonic Thrust combo extends BotD by 10s
• Initial BotD duration 20s, up from 15s
• Elusive Jump cooldown 30 seconds

I think there was a mention of small potency buffs (no specifics), but I can't find that at the moment.

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those go live tomorrow?

they seem ok not sure how much it will change but its a step in the right direction

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

That was from the Live Letter? Weird. The translation I saw from the question was simply that Dragoon's will be boosted in a way that is in line with their uniqueness and playstyle, or some claptrap like that.

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The JP version of that is slightly more fleshed out.

Having looked at that question in the video, I didn't hear him say anything about potency. That's interpretation being added by others (even in Japan). It would be natural to expect it; I expect it. But not literally his words. One of the unofficial translations floating around seems to have misheard idō (movement) concerning Elusive Jump as iryoku (potency) as a separate point after Elusive Jump.

Man, the design team must've REALLY went all in on the LOTD mechanic and justifying it as some core DRG playability benefit. The changes discussed in the live letter seems to concentrate on improving DRG for dungeons rather than raid. I still cling to hope come Tuesday, when the changes are live. Hopefully we'll be pleasantly surprised.

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

Man, the design team must've REALLY went all in on the LOTD mechanic and justifying it as some core DRG playability benefit. The changes discussed in the live letter seems to concentrate on improving DRG for dungeons rather than raid. I still cling to hope come Tuesday, when the changes are live. Hopefully we'll be pleasantly surprised.

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They wouldn't do that.... especially considering savage drops on the same day. If I were the Devs my immediate concern would be savage performance.

I can't believe they actually ignored all those pleas regarding the Eye mechanic.

But whatever.

All I can see is Lance mastery from 30 > 100 potency increase, but that still doesn't fix the tightness when we're entering phase changes, at most with BOTD buff we get around 45s if you reapply BOTD at the last second.

Some of these changes really make me scratch my head, I'm sure people were looking forward towards something related to the eyes.

On a side note: Do we still not know the values for Direct Hit vs Critical Hit? Which one comes out on top? It's time to start melding those VIs Materias!

Disappointing, but the fact that we can maintain botd while AEing was a badly needed change. If they don't want to give us eyes that don't degrade adding like 10 seconds to the max gauge would have helped.

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Originally Posted by ValeriaL

Some of these changes really make me scratch my head, I'm sure people were looking forward towards something related to the eyes.

On a side note: Do we still not know the values for Direct Hit vs Critical Hit? Which one comes out on top? It's time to start melding those VIs Materias!

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...bd&sh=31c32118
Critical Strike is better than Direct Hit per point at 3012(+2648).

If you can't get 3012 Crit rate, then direct hit is better.

I still prefer having some crit on hand, around 1,3k+. Tried going full DH on my melds and resulted in DPS loss instead

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Originally Posted by Khel

Disappointing, but the fact that we can maintain botd while AEing was a badly needed change. If they don't want to give us eyes that don't degrade adding like 10 seconds to the max gauge would have helped.

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This will hopefully make Nastrond usable in actual AoE situations. If we can manage to get 4 eyes stacked & we don't lose BoTD between pulls.

Anyone who can share some results of how much the increase in lance mastery improves DPS?

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Originally Posted by Gripen

Anyone who can share some results of how much the increase in lance mastery improves DPS?

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Not really an exact Math but if you check fflogs, WT / FnC each deals roughly 10% of a DRG's total DPS, totaling into 20%. It means that your WTs and FnCs are your primary source of damage after Auto Attacks (Around 20%).

The new Lance Mastery is like +333% increase in potency (100/30*100%), so even though it looks small the buff is nothing to scoff at. It basically buffs DRG's primary source of damage by a good amount. And in the EXs / Omega normal I've been parsing on average 100 DPS below a NIN friend of mine who is a really good NIN. I believe this buff can make DRG's DPS output equal or slightly higher than NIN's.

But only the 5th followup gets the potency buff, right? So only half of that 10% would be boosted by 333%

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

Not really an exact Math but if you check fflogs, WT / FnC each deals roughly 10% of a DRG's total DPS, totaling into 20%. It means that your WTs and FnCs are your primary source of damage after Auto Attacks (Around 20%).

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The lance mastery buff is only for the bonus, so it's +100 instead of +30 on top of the 290/200 of F&C/WT

Assuming all positionals are hit, the totals are (because the bonus is only on the second one)

Before: 610
After: 680

So it's just over an 11% increase for those abilities together themselves.

If it is 20% of the total DPS, then it is an 11% of that, meaning the new potency is about 2.2%.

I think the increase should be 390/320-1, i.e. close to 22%, on 2 out of 11 abilities in a rotation. My CT pps might be off but translating to pps I get to a 4,8% increase. Taking auto attacks into account (about 20% of dps), I get to 3,8% increase in dps.

On a dummy, my DPS seems to have gone up by 100. Doing about 4150 now no food no pot.

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Originally Posted by Gripen

I think the increase should be 390/320-1, i.e. close to 22%, on 2 out of 11 abilities in a rotation. My CT pps might be off but translating to pps I get to a 4,8% increase. Taking auto attacks into account (about 20% of dps), I get to 3,8% increase in dps.

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The bonus only occurs when they come in a pair, so I was considering a F&C+WT pair with the old and new bonus (because the bonus can never exist unless they are paired). I took that as the % increase for the damage pair before and after.

Although it's not really accurate to just increase the % by the new % increase, if we treat it as 20 points out of 100 before (not percentage but just points in proportion), and now it is 22.2 points out of 102.2, it is very roughly 2.2% more in terms of overall damage. It's very imprecise, but the 20% was imprecise to start with.

I can't bring myself to play after the changes. They fixed one, maybe two minor complaints people had instead of adjusting the deal breaking issue for me. Wind up time and dropping eyes is still annoying, and I don't want to go into Savage fighting my class and the raid at the same time. Hoping they rethink this in 4.1

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

On a dummy, my DPS seems to have gone up by 100. Doing about 4150 now no food no pot.

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That works out as roughly 2.4%, so I expect my estimate is close.

I know that it only applies for the 5th combo. That's why in fflogs you tend to see either WT / FnC is the higher % which means in that fight, you proc the 5th WT / FnC more often. It's still a good DPS buff no matter what. Major fixes will probably come in 4.1 where it adjusts the LOTD mechanic since Yoshi himself tweeted that it does take too long to reach LOTD.

Did an EX Roulette run today and the ST changes made it way better in keeping stacks / able to use Nastrond in AOE pulls which results in a fast run. Not only that, there's this moment in the final boss where I have less than 6 seconds left of BOTD and charge up the gauge back with DS > ST. Really useful.

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

I know that it only applies for the 5th combo. That's why in fflogs you tend to see either WT / FnC is the higher % which means in that fight, you proc the 5th WT / FnC more often. It's still a good DPS buff no matter what. Major fixes will probably come in 4.1 where it adjusts the LOTD mechanic since Yoshi himself tweeted that it does take too long to reach LOTD.

Did an EX Roulette run today and the ST changes made it way better in keeping stacks / able to use Nastrond in AOE pulls which results in a fast run. Not only that, there's this moment in the final boss where I have less than 6 seconds left of BOTD and charge up the gauge back with DS > ST. Really useful.

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For sure, I won't look a gift horse in the mouth.

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

I know that it only applies for the 5th combo. That's why in fflogs you tend to see either WT / FnC is the higher % which means in that fight, you proc the 5th WT / FnC more often. It's still a good DPS buff no matter what. Major fixes will probably come in 4.1 where it adjusts the LOTD mechanic since Yoshi himself tweeted that it does take too long to reach LOTD.

Did an EX Roulette run today and the ST changes made it way better in keeping stacks / able to use Nastrond in AOE pulls which results in a fast run. Not only that, there's this moment in the final boss where I have less than 6 seconds left of BOTD and charge up the gauge back with DS > ST. Really useful.

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I didn't know he tweets! Can you link?