Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

Yup, I always target the mt and toss it onto them about 5 seconds before the pull if we get a countdown, or when they instapull, I'll throw it on them and then start my opener. I always make sure that it goes on cooldown and that the correct tank has the Shade icon.

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Originally Posted by MetalSnakeXI1

Hmm..

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I'm going to assume they used it on the tank, there's just no point putting it on anyone else. I'm also assuming that if Diversion was used during Shade, it wouldn't generate much aggro on the tank, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case and that the tank was just being bad.

If a DPS uses all their enmity mitigation tools, then it's always the tank's fault for losing aggro. This often happens because the tank isn't well geared and is trying to have 100% up time on their DPS stance, made worse by the OT neglecting to Shirk.

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

Expecting other roles to manage aggro just so they can stay out of tank stance and dps is not actually in anyone's job description. Is actually what I said. If you can stay in DPS stance and keep enmity then I've got no argument. If you can't, then you can adjust by going back into tank stance or enmity combos or... whatever. Aggro dumping is for when there's some reason why the tank has lost aggro and you're suddenly about to be Enemy Number One. It's not something you should be having to hit every time it's off CD while your tank is whaling away in Defiance or Blood Sword (unless you've got a party that's prepared for that--I know you need all the DPS you can get in high-end). I'm tired of this thing going around where you're suddenly a crappy tank if you can't stay in DPS mode or if you use enmity combos. It's making inexperienced tanks do really stupid things because that's what they think is expected.

Aggro dumping is a stop-gap to not dying. It is not there to empower tanks. If a tank is struggling, then yes, the party needs to adjust. But if that tank is struggling to live up to the hype instead of doing their job, well... My enmity skills (or skill, depending on the job) are essentially for ME, and have a long cool-down. Good luck.

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I don't recall seeing this mystical statement of telling inexperienced tanks to do stupid things. You said it not me. Aggro dumping is PROPER play. Over time properly geared dps will creep up on the aggro of tanks and you're telling me you can't be bothered to push one button instead of forcing the tank to lower their damage for you? I've had tanks in deltascape that couldn't hold aggro even in shield oath (granted this is the kind of player that can't be taught, never talked or worked with party). Tanks shouldn't do "stupid things" if they are still learning, that's what experienced tanks do instead.

Proper tanking and enmity management is the offtank doing provoke->Shirk and should the need arise, diversion and/or lucid dreaming for dps. As I said stop being selfish and use the tools at your disposal. Red mages for example should pop diversion because of their heavy burst to start. You're not expected to use them off cooldown but you ARE expected to use them when necessary.

Edlt: Furthermore an enmity combo to start off with is not a bad thing, if anything it's encouraged to do one or two combos depending on party and dps since enmity in this game is strong. However if the tank is geared then if the dps do not use lucid and diversion when needed then the problem is on you, not the tank.

Experienced and geared tanks sitting in tank stance all the time (mostly during bosses and trials/raids) is them just lowering their damage for no gain. On dungeon trash mobs tank stance is (usually) recommended because they can hit harder than bosses in a collective.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

I'm going to assume they used it on the tank, there's just no point putting it on anyone else. I'm also assuming that if Diversion was used during Shade, which wouldn't generate much aggro on the tank, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case and that the tank was just being bad.

If a DPS uses all their enmity mitigation tools, then it's always the tank's fault for losing aggro. This often happens because the tank isn't well geared and is trying to have 100% up time on their DPS stance, made worse by the OT neglecting to Shirk.

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Yeah, I definitely avoid diversion while shade is active.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Yup, I always target the mt and toss it onto them about 5 seconds before the pull if we get a countdown, or when they instapull, I'll throw it on them and then start my opener. I always make sure that it goes on cooldown and that the correct tank has the Shade icon.

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If u had to do this much then the tank on your team flatout sucked,which sadly seems to be very common nowadays with a lot of tanks on raids.

I only use Shadewalker like at emergencies if the OT didn't happen to be the second aggro target when the MT dies but other than that........Diversion was always enough.

I think the problem I've seen with most tanks nowadays....is that once they aggro a boss they go immediately to their DPSing rotation and rarely using their aggro combo

I'm average at tanking myself so I won't pretend I'm better than most tanks but the way I do it with my DRK is this........pull then aggro combo first to lock on the aggro and then swap around between my aggro combo and DPS combo to make sure I'm always on the enmity list.I stopped tanking due to my tankxiety making me panic in high end content but after all those situations.....I may as well repractice my tanking again if only for Normal Raids

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

I'm going to assume they used it on the tank, there's just no point putting it on anyone else. I'm also assuming that if Diversion was used during Shade, which wouldn't generate much aggro on the tank, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case and that the tank was just being bad.

If a DPS uses all their enmity mitigation tools, then it's always the tank's fault for losing aggro. This often happens because the tank isn't well geared and is trying to have 100% up time on their DPS stance, made worse by the OT neglecting to Shirk.

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That's what I'm getting at.

She was doing pretty much fine,it's just the tanks she ran into were flatout bad

I don't mind newbie tanks as long as it feels like A/ they're learning and B/They don't talk shit to their fellow party members

If someone is nice i can overlook a lot of mishaps but the moment they behave like assholes and play the blame game....that's where a line should be drawn

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

No. Getting through the content is everyone's job. Adjusting for party weaknesses is everyone's job. Getting the enemy's attention and holding it? That's the tank's tank's job. Expecting other roles to manage aggro just so they can stay out of tank stance and dps is not actually in anyone's job description. If your group is down with it, then fine but certainly don't expect it from me unless there's a legit reason I need to aggro dump. :\

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Is being a cooldown in your job description? Because that's how you get shirked. I mean heck if you honestly don't do anything for your threat the shirk won't even be necessary.

Your reason to aggro dump is that if you don't you will rip. That's enough. If if isn't enough for you I hope healers are quick with the raises.

If you expect every tank to aggro combo to cover for someone else's ineptitude you are in for a shock.

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

No. Getting through the content is everyone's job. Adjusting for party weaknesses is everyone's job. Getting the enemy's attention and holding it? That's the tank's tank's job. Expecting other roles to manage aggro just so they can stay out of tank stance and dps is not actually in anyone's job description. If your group is down with it, then fine but certainly don't expect it from me unless there's a legit reason I need to aggro dump. :\

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If you want to play the game badly that's not the tanks problem, it will however quickly become your problem because if you aren't going to cut you're going to quickly be learning how to tank. I give one warning, then I shirk. If you won't cut your aggro, I'll do it for you until you learn.

https://i.imgflip.com/2p1hr4.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lorgana

If you want to play the game badly that's not the tanks problem, it will however quickly become your problem because if you aren't going to cut you're going to quickly be learning how to tank. I give one warning, then I shirk. If you won't cut your aggro, I'll do it for you until you learn.

https://i.imgflip.com/2p1hr4.jpg

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Lol the meme pic xD

I won't deny that DPS and healers would also need to control their enmity as well,but at the same time if the tank has a problem even after the others used their enmity reduction actions then something is wrong on the tank's end.

As I said before I popped Refresh to get my party's MP up then tactician shortly after just to reduce enmity off me yet still neither the OT nor the MT picked the aggro off me and I ate a mustard bomb to the face

Not to mention that some enmity reduction actions have quite the meaty cooldown so I can't keep reducing my enmity forever or always throwing away my Refresh and watch the healers and casters run out of MP

It is indeed a team effort and as a Dark Knight I know that tanking isn't always easy but the jest of it is this:If I do my part for the job I play as I'd naturally expect everyone to do the same.

Tho the funny thing is,my most recent problems with tanks outside O11 doesn't even involve enmity but rather incompetence.......from a Paladin that keeps spinning Tsukiyomi around during cleaves to a Paladin in Rabanastre that refused to pick up our alliance's ad during mateus and instead kept targetting the boss as the ad mow our DPS down(he wasn't even MTing the boss either )

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

Aggro dumping is a stop-gap to not dying. It is not there to empower tanks. If a tank is struggling, then yes, the party needs to adjust. But if that tank is struggling to live up to the hype instead of doing their job, well... My enmity skills (or skill, depending on the job) are essentially for ME, and have a long cool-down. Good luck.

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No, they're not - or at least not only that.
Look at skills like Shadewalker and Diversion (one a build-in ninja-skill and the other used to be a build-in blackmage-skill, before it become a general role-action): Both reduce the aggro you generate for a given time-frame. They're not "oh shit, I'm about to rip aggro!"-buttons like Lucid Dream or Refresh. They're essiantially telling you "Here, press this button, to make the whole tanking easier for your tank" - and it doesnt matter if that tank is struggeling or someone who cleared Ultimate World First. It makes it easier for the tank, who can in turn play more efficient, if YOU play more efficient.
Using your logic I could argue that a tank shouldnt have to press defensive cooldowns, because its a healers job to keep them healed all the time - and sure, you can get through the game by not making use of your CDs, but that moment you're playing bad. As tank I'm not hitting my CDs to help my healer, but because they're skills that I have at my disposal and that I personally want to make use of to play my class to the best of its potential.

You have those skills. Make use of them to support your tank and your party. Forcing someone to play less efficient, forcing a person who actually cares about performing to the best of their and their jobs potential, because you're to lazy to press your aggro-dumps or because you have this weird notion of how a tank should be played...

It should be in your own best intrest to enable the tank to stay out of tank-stance as much as possible - makes the ran go faster, after all. And if all that it takes from you is pressing a button every 2 minutes its hard for me to get why you'd argue against that.

So am I still bad if I rip threat despite using Diversion and Shadewalker on CD? Because that keeps happening to me lately. And I'm not even a good ninja, I'm decent at most.

Enmity is the whole party's job, yes, but that still includes the tanks.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

So am I still bad if I rip threat despite using Diversion and Shadewalker on CD? Because that keeps happening to me lately. And I'm not even a good ninja, I'm decent at most.

Enmity is the whole party's job, yes, but that still includes the tanks.

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Yes. Go sit in a corner and twiddle your thumbs until the tank has managed to establish solid aggro.

How dare you hit hard? Sheesh...

I feel that shirking the dps will lead to you slowing down the run also, or more i was kicked for this tank topics. Lucid and diversion can only do so much unless they shorten the cd. I mean even if you kill the dps unless it is a dungeon or alliance raid you either have to wait until the group wipes or them choosing to not respawn and still getting loot.

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Originally Posted by Lorgana

I give one warning, then I shirk.

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A DPS not using their agro reducers is playing bad. You shirking them is much worse(depending on what kind of "warning" youre giving in chat, it might even qualify as ban-able harassment). And no, you arent Jesus in this scenario - youre Judas betraying the party for a petty reason.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

A DPS not using their agro reducers is playing bad. You shirking them is much worse(depending on what kind of "warning" youre giving in chat, it might even qualify as ban-able harassment). And no, you arent Jesus in this scenario - youre Judas betraying the party for a petty reason.

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I literally say " cut your aggro" or " watch emnity" if there is no reply either in the form of cutting emnity or them communicating that it's on CD then at that point death will become their aggro dump. I'm a BIS paladin, if I'm losing emnity to anyone in casual content it's because they're not using their emnity skills either correctly or at all. Is it a harsh lesson? Yes, but then again when I see people on this forum complaining about how we need to nerf mist dragon, sometimes harsh lessons are required to git good.

Rather than respond to individual, silly posts about threat management - if you're ripping off of a tank in even semi-current gear outside of an opener one of you is not doing your job. As I know how to open on tanks I will assume a dps pulling off of me isn't managing their enmity properly and then it becomes their problem. I have no problem saving a cooldown because they wanted to eat a tankbuster.

I'm not saying you people haven't encountered tanks that don't know how to play, I'm nearly BiS on RDM and I know the pain of pulling off of a tank when Diversion and Lucid are on CD. The problem then lies with the tank.

The initial post I responded to wanted to throw all the blame anyone pulling threat onto the tank. This is not the case. If you are too inept to use threat mitigation then by all means tank the floor. You're more useful as a CD than a dps.

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

Expecting other roles to manage aggro just so they can stay out of tank stance and dps is not actually in anyone's job description. Is actually what I said. If you can stay in DPS stance and keep enmity then I've got no argument. If you can't, then you can adjust by going back into tank stance or enmity combos or... whatever. Aggro dumping is for when there's some reason why the tank has lost aggro and you're suddenly about to be Enemy Number One. It's not something you should be having to hit every time it's off CD while your tank is whaling away in Defiance or Blood Sword (unless you've got a party that's prepared for that--I know you need all the DPS you can get in high-end). I'm tired of this thing going around where you're suddenly a crappy tank if you can't stay in DPS mode or if you use enmity combos. It's making inexperienced tanks do really stupid things because that's what they think is expected.

Aggro dumping is a stop-gap to not dying. It is not there to empower tanks. If a tank is struggling, then yes, the party needs to adjust. But if that tank is struggling to live up to the hype instead of doing their job, well... My enmity skills (or skill, depending on the job) are essentially for ME, and have a long cool-down. Good luck.

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Yes, yes it is. Aggro is a party responsibility. Telling the tank to go back into tank stance and do enmity combos is basically saying "I'm too lazy to press this button which has zero impact on my rotation or ability to DPS." Meanwhile, it's a significant DPS loss for tanks, and can throw off their rotation. So no, I am under no obligation to save you because you can't be bothered to use Diversion or Lucid Dreaming.

Good luck you say? I'm not the one who will die to the boss' tank busters. Aggro won't be an issue afterwards~!

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Rather than respond to individual, silly posts about threat management - if you're ripping off of a tank in even semi-current gear outside of an opener one of you is not doing your job. As I know how to open on tanks I will assume a dps pulling off of me isn't managing their enmity properly and then it becomes their problem. I have no problem saving a cooldown because they wanted to eat a tankbuster.

I'm not saying you people haven't encountered tanks that don't know how to play, I'm nearly BiS on RDM and I know the pain of pulling off of a tank when Diversion and Lucid are on CD. The problem then lies with the tank.

The initial post I responded to wanted to throw all the blame anyone pulling threat onto the tank. This is not the case. If you are too inept to use threat mitigation then by all means tank the floor. You're more useful as a CD than a dps.

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On my end I used my only aggro mitigation tools as a bard....Refresh and Tactician,the problem being is that those two have quite a long cool down and only one ranged DPS can use it at a time(my refresh went on cooldown when a machinest used refresh) so I was doing my part

Sure blame shouldn't be always thrown at tanks and I'm a Dark Knight myself.....but still the ones I got on O11 were....something else

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

So am I still bad if I rip threat despite using Diversion and Shadewalker on CD? Because that keeps happening to me lately. And I'm not even a good ninja, I'm decent at most.

Enmity is the whole party's job, yes, but that still includes the tanks.

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No, you're not and no one said that?

Its very simple really:
Enemity control is - as you said yourself - a party responsibility.
As DPS or healer your tools for that are your aggro-dumps. If you use them, you're doing your part and you're good - the rest is on the tank(s) then.
If you're not making use of those tools, you're NOT doing your job and are making the tank pick up your slack, by sacrifing damage that they're dealing to help with the also shared parties job of killing stuff.

aggro drops on cooldown/being used throughout the fight = good player
aggro drops ignored = bad player

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Originally Posted by Vidu

No, they're not - or at least not only that.
Look at skills like Shadewalker and Diversion (one a build-in ninja-skill and the other used to be a build-in blackmage-skill, before it become a general role-action): Both reduce the aggro you generate for a given time-frame. They're not "oh shit, I'm about to rip aggro!"-buttons like Lucid Dream or Refresh. They're essiantially telling you "Here, press this button, to make the whole tanking easier for your tank" - and it doesnt matter if that tank is struggeling or someone who cleared Ultimate World First. It makes it easier for the tank, who can in turn play more efficient, if YOU play more efficient.
Using your logic I could argue that a tank shouldnt have to press defensive cooldowns, because its a healers job to keep them healed all the time - and sure, you can get through the game by not making use of your CDs, but that moment you're playing bad. As tank I'm not hitting my CDs to help my healer, but because they're skills that I have at my disposal and that I personally want to make use of to play my class to the best of its potential.

You have those skills. Make use of them to support your tank and your party. Forcing someone to play less efficient, forcing a person who actually cares about performing to the best of their and their jobs potential, because you're to lazy to press your aggro-dumps or because you have this weird notion of how a tank should be played...

It should be in your own best intrest to enable the tank to stay out of tank-stance as much as possible - makes the ran go faster, after all. And if all that it takes from you is pressing a button every 2 minutes its hard for me to get why you'd argue against that.

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It goes like this: First time I'm red I pop the thing, no questions because hey--it happens. Second time, I'm looking at gear and popping whatever I have, usually a defensive if the aggro skill is still on CD. Third time I'm looking at stances and what is actually going on. If its not tank stuff, I will probably suggest doing tank stuff (or give advice if it's just inexperience). This entirely depends on how far apart these happen. Because obviously, it's easier just to pop the thing. Being in a state of constant yellow is something I've come to expect nowadays and I don't waste my CD on it.

We'll have to agree to disagree there. Enmity skills for DPS are there for when the DPS have aggro and need to get rid of it. Just because they CAN be used to help the tank stay in DPS stance does NOT mean they're a tank buff (obviously it's a dick move to put Shadow Walker on anyone that's not a tank but the same could be said of Shirk and that seems to be the current go-to for 'punishing' people who don't fall in line). If this happens a few times in a duty and well within my CD window then yeah, I'm pressing the thing. However those weren't added to the toolkit with the intent to let tanks languish in DPS stance. It's there to help the tank by virtue of 'hey, here's this thing that belongs to you--please take it so I don't die'.

(Also, if Diversion is what Quelling Strikes used to be then it was never a built-in BLM skill. It was a skill we borrowed from Bards back in the day when cross-class was a thing. BLM's had no built-in enmity skills. -Just 3 defensive ones.)

Lucid is part of my mana management package. That's primarily what I use it for. Especially for SMN or RDM. I can be a little more generous with it on healer, as long as it's not SCH (which is one of the biggest mana-drains). In any case, it's not for wasting. It's for emergencies outside of that. The only real argument you have is with Shadow-Walker and Diversion because they literally ONLY affect enmity. And that's for melee/ranged. So yeah, asking me to sacrifice an essential part of my job's support infrastructure to help your role be more efficient is... just as bad as what you claim I'm doing by NOT DOING THAT.

If you're not using CD's to help anyone but yourself play more efficiently as you mentioned here: As tank I'm not hitting my CDs to help my healer, but because they're skills that I have at my disposal and that I personally want to make use of to play my class to the best of its potential, then explain to me why I'm suddenly expected to do anything less for my own class? Even if I was melee, having to constantly manage personal aggro because the aggro guy is busy not doing aggro is still a sacrifice and a distraction from what I'm supposed to be doing. Which is damage or healing. Or even tanking. (I have those. Not too good with them but I has.)

We are not here to enable any one class. We are here to get through content. Putting the burden of your job onto others so you can do a different one is not what anyone is here for (unless you planned ahead). And again, it's not saying I won't press buttons. It's saying I won't press buttons for YOU and only YOU (because you're obviously not doing that for me either).

I feel like people are trying to pass this off as the new meta party mentality. I'm down with being more aware of personal enmity. I'm not down with that as the expectation so a certain job doesn't have to do it's job. :/

If you want to keep being bad, keep being bad I guess

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20170727024423

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

It goes like this: First time I'm red I pop the thing, no questions because hey--it happens.

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But you're supposed to pop Diversion before you go red, because unlike Lucid Dreaming, it doesn't halve your enmity, but rather decreases enmity generation by 90% while active.

In other words, it's precisely what you need to pop before a big boom opener to make the most of it.

The sky is blue. Water is wet. Players who don't control their enmity are bad.

These are facts.

This discussion reminds me of when i was levelling my other classes.

I use my aggro management on cooldown, and promptly end up ripping aggro anyway, proceed to get yelled at.

So i do the only thing that can be done to avoid ripping aggro at that point, stop attacking and contributing to damage entirely.
Proceed to get yelled at for not doing anything.

How the hell do you want it? Make up your bloody mind.
I can't use aggro dumps that are on cooldown, and if people are too thickheaded to realize that...

You take the only possible course of action to accomplish what people tell you to do and they get angry over it, and if you don't take that course of action they get angry anyway, it's a lose/lose situation.

Heck, you actually lose more DPS by preventing the damage dealers from doing anything once they run out of aggro dump CD's than you do by having the tank use a few aggro combos, but it seems nobody cares about that.

The only winning move is not to play at all in this scenario.

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

Bad aggro management talk

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Evidently you seem to have learned nothing from this discussion when just about everyone else is saying otherwise. May you be blessed with many tankbusters in your future then.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

This discussion reminds me of when i was levelling my other classes.

I use my aggro management on cooldown, and promptly end up ripping aggro anyway, proceed to get yelled at.

So i do the only thing that can be done to avoid ripping aggro at that point, stop attacking and contributing to damage entirely.
Proceed to get yelled at for not doing anything.

How the hell do you want it? Make up your bloody mind.
I can't use aggro dumps that are on cooldown, and if people are too thickheaded to realize that...

You take the only possible course of action to accomplish what people tell you to do and they get angry over it, and if you don't take that course of action they get angry anyway, it's a lose/lose situation.

Heck, you actually lose more DPS by preventing the damage dealers from doing anything once they run out of aggro dump CD's than you do by having the tank use a few aggro combos, but it seems nobody cares about that.

The only winning move is not to play at all in this scenario.

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Then that's on the tank. This has already been covered in earlier posts. It's the responsibility of the whole party to manage aggro.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Then that's on the tank. This has already been covered in earlier posts. It's the responsibility of the whole party to manage aggro.

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And yet tanks don't seem to want to use their aggro skills, because they want to DPS instead.

This is a very circular argument.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

And yet tanks don't seem to want to use their aggro skills, because they want to DPS instead.

This is a very circular argument.

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The tanks use their aggro skills to establish aggro, after that if they lose aggro it is either because they are out geared significantly by the dps or the dps suck at aggro management there is no circular argument there is only an autistic one. AGGRO MANAGEMENT IS ELITIST META TALK GAIZ

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

And yet tanks don't seem to want to use their aggro skills, because they want to DPS instead.

This is a very circular argument.

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Not really? I use mine as much as I need to/should. Excusing stupidity on the part of one or more party members isnt very circular if they wouldn't perform stupid in the first place. I manage my aggro mid pull just fine if I have to deal with some beastly dps but if I see the offtank mashing their enmity combo without a care in the world then I will point it out.

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Originally Posted by Lorgana

The tanks use their aggro skills to establish aggro, after that if they lose aggro it is either because they are out geared significantly by the dps or the dps suck at aggro management there is no circular argument there is only an autistic one. AGGRO MANAGEMENT IS ELITIST META TALK GAIZ

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I'll be honest, the tanks I see losing aggro anymore do indeed establish it initially, then they go into dps stance and never look back. Sure, one Diversion is all it takes, but what happens when that wears off? I can't spam it. My job is to dps. A tank's job is to tank. If they can dps and tank at the same time, cool. A lot of people can't though.

So I talked to my static about this problem that I keep running into - or rather, have been for the last month or so. The whole issue with enmity. I'm... Not sure what else I could possibly do to deal with enmity if both Shade and Diversion are on cooldown. Aside from sabotaging my own dps. I'm.... Not exactly sure why you're insinuating that, in the situations that I am 100% at fault, Ursa.

About half a year old story here.

Bard uses Refresh as aggro dump.
Healers run out of MP, asks for Refresh.
Refresh still on cooldown because it was used as an aggro dump earlier.
No healing because no MP.
Wipe.
Everyone blames the bard for being bad.

Try again.

Bard holds off on Refresh until the healers need it so the previous situation does not repeat.
Bard rips aggro, because tank is going full DPS.
Bard dies.
Tank blames bard for not dumping aggro.
Spirals into a wipe.
Everyone blames the bard for being bad.

Morton's Fork strikes again.

Bard asks if the tank expects him to hack the game so he has infinite CD's, because that would be the only way to conform to expectations.
Tank doesn't care he's asking for the impossible, the bard should DPS, help the healers regain MP and ALSO aggro dump, doesn't matter if cooldowns run out, do it anyway! Is also offended that the bard accuses him of demanding he cheats.

Tragic comedy ensues.

Meanwhile the spectators, including myself, are busy facepalming over the whole debacle.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

Bard uses Lucid as aggro dump.
.

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I refer back to my earlier quote about how this isn't a circular argument, if the bard is using Lucid as an aggro dump then damn, what a bard. He's clearly already hacking the game if he has lucid.

It did cause a wipe though.

Morton's Fork is at play here.

Do or do not, it ends badly either way, all possible courses of action lead to the same terrible end.

And nobody thought to look at the healers who were running out of mana without Refresh to prop them up.

Maybe i'm getting the ability names mixed up here, let me check
Ah oops, Should be Refresh.
Fixed.

That's what i get for writing while half asleep and having not touched the relevant classes for several months.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

It did cause a wipe though.

Morton's Fork is at play here.

Do or do not, it ends badly either way, all possible courses of action lead to the same terrible end.

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If you think the situations you've listed are realistic there is more at play here than a normal fork.

Maybe a fork made out of gold, titanium, sulfer, titanium and carbon?

All possible outcomes? I disagree, if the entire party didn't have autism then chances are everyone would have been fine.

Why did the healer need to use so much MP? Was it because this MRHAKERMAN bard kept standing in AOES like they were trying to collect vuln up stacks, or was the healer spamming cure 3 on single targets?

All problems in this game can normally be solved by not being a potato. But if you are a potato, well everyone needs crafters right?

This went from funny to just kind of tryhard pathetic at this point.

All possible courses of action the bard as an individual could have taken.
And then all the blame gets heaped on him in the end.

Off course things wouldn't have gone so poorly if the healers weren't guzzling mana like crazy, but as the situation stood there was nothing the bard could have done, since it came down to dealing with aggro or the healers MP, and doing one prevents handling the other, causing things to go south either way.

Two choices that both lead to the same bad result is the definition of Morton's Fork as far as i understand it.
Throw in a heaping of scapegoating and overlooking the other factors at play and you get a real mess.

Even as a bystander, watching that go down is just painful.


EDIT: So yes, i made i mistake, i'm tired, haven't touched the relevant classes in a long time, and mixed up the names of two abilites that do the same thing.
I made a fool of myself, i get it.
Can we drop that part?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

It goes like this: First time I'm red I pop the thing, no questions because hey--it happens. Second time, I'm looking at gear and popping whatever I have, usually a defensive if the aggro skill is still on CD. Third time I'm looking at stances and what is actually going on. If its not tank stuff, I will probably suggest doing tank stuff (or give advice if it's just inexperience). This entirely depends on how far apart these happen. Because obviously, it's easier just to pop the thing. Being in a state of constant yellow is something I've come to expect nowadays and I don't waste my CD on it.

We'll have to agree to disagree there. Enmity skills for DPS are there for when the DPS have aggro and need to get rid of it. Just because they CAN be used to help the tank stay in DPS stance does NOT mean they're a tank buff (obviously it's a dick move to put Shadow Walker on anyone that's not a tank but the same could be said of Shirk and that seems to be the current go-to for 'punishing' people who don't fall in line). If this happens a few times in a duty and well within my CD window then yeah, I'm pressing the thing. However those weren't added to the toolkit with the intent to let tanks languish in DPS stance. It's there to help the tank by virtue of 'hey, here's this thing that belongs to you--please take it so I don't die'.

(Also, if Diversion is what Quelling Strikes used to be then it was never a built-in BLM skill. It was a skill we borrowed from Bards back in the day when cross-class was a thing. BLM's had no built-in enmity skills. -Just 3 defensive ones.)

Lucid is part of my mana management package. That's primarily what I use it for. Especially for SMN or RDM. I can be a little more generous with it on healer, as long as it's not SCH (which is one of the biggest mana-drains). In any case, it's not for wasting. It's for emergencies outside of that. The only real argument you have is with Shadow-Walker and Diversion because they literally ONLY affect enmity. And that's for melee/ranged. So yeah, asking me to sacrifice an essential part of my job's support infrastructure to help your role be more efficient is... just as bad as what you claim I'm doing by NOT DOING THAT.

If you're not using CD's to help anyone but yourself play more efficiently as you mentioned here: As tank I'm not hitting my CDs to help my healer, but because they're skills that I have at my disposal and that I personally want to make use of to play my class to the best of its potential, then explain to me why I'm suddenly expected to do anything less for my own class? Even if I was melee, having to constantly manage personal aggro because the aggro guy is busy not doing aggro is still a sacrifice and a distraction from what I'm supposed to be doing. Which is damage or healing. Or even tanking. (I have those. Not too good with them but I has.)

We are not here to enable any one class. We are here to get through content. Putting the burden of your job onto others so you can do a different one is not what anyone is here for (unless you planned ahead). And again, it's not saying I won't press buttons. It's saying I won't press buttons for YOU and only YOU (because you're obviously not doing that for me either).

I feel like people are trying to pass this off as the new meta party mentality. I'm down with being more aware of personal enmity. I'm not down with that as the expectation so a certain job doesn't have to do it's job. :/

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Dude what the hell? You use Diversion and partly Lucid only for one reason and thats to NOT get aggro. If you get hate because you don't use it, every tank should let you die. You can write a whole Novel and your arguments are still not getting right because of it.

The argument here is basically

I don't want to use the tools I've been given to control aggro, as a result, the tank should play sub-optimally. If you think that this is the correct position then you are incorrect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mixt

All possible courses of action the bard as an individual could have taken.
And then all the blame gets heaped on him in the end.

Off course things wouldn't have gone so poorly if the healers weren't guzzling mana like crazy, but as the situation stood there was nothing the bard could have done, since it came down to dealing with aggro or the healers MP, and doing one prevents handling the other, causing things to go south either way.

Two choices that both lead to the same bad result is the definition of Morton's Fork as far as i understand it.
Throw in a heaping of scapegoating and overlooking the other factors at play and you get a real mess.

Even as a bystander, watching that go down is just painful.

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Except this scenario will not happen with proper aggro management. Holding Refresh for healers outside of prog is simply catering to bad healers. More often than not, you'll lose a cast of it simply waiting around for that maybe scenario. It's the same nonsense logic as "hold Benediction for emergency!" Bards use Refresh at a point in their opener where it will always benefit the healers. They will then have Tactician for aggro throughout the fight. The only way they'll rip at this point is if the second tank isn't Shirking properly. And even that scenario is reserved exclusively for good BRDs who know how to maximize the job's opening burst.

Put simply, MP won't ever be an issue due to the BRD using Refresh in their opener nor will aggro be a problem unless someone else is doing something wrong.