#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

We need more fights like Barbariccia. Best fight in all of Endwalker IMO.

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Barbariccia is amazing. Normal mode is somewhat challenging. Extreme is challenging but not insurmountable. Definitely the kind of midcore content I would love more of. I really do wish they made up their mind on difficulty when it comes to Extreme and Savage because you can't even begin to compare Endsinger/Hydaelyn Ex to Barbariccia. P2S felt more in line with Extreme fights, where P3S was hell (well, mostly because of all the orange but still).

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

How far back are you going? Because I've played in multiple games, if you're in a game where the healer is dedicated to healing, then if they sacrifice DPS, then they simply aren't so fragile. If anything, I was able to stand there and take quite a bit of damage, my gear had at least as much magic defense in one case but considerably higher physical defence, the casters took the most damage. If I was responsible to keep a party alive I had the tools to do so, I had more than enough "protective abilities" as long as the DPS were using their skills- and they didn't typically have much utility.

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That's fair in a lot of cases. I think back to OG WoW raids like UBRS, where healing was so prioritized you'd have Paladins wearing cloth and people prioritizing their survival because if your healers went down you were completely screwed. Another example is the Logistics role in EVE Online, where in PvE content (such as Incursions) if a logi ship is aggro'd the entire group will immediately stop what they are doing and focus all attention on saving the logi as they're the only thing keeping their ships from returning to their natural state as minerals floating in space. Granted that's not a "traditional MMO" but the role and its place in the game still stands.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

In more complex cases, we had multiple parties, each with a tank, healer and DPS to handle mini-bosses while raiding in at least one game but they weren't "troubling the healer", they didn't specifically target healers, if necessary I could even keep myself up. It would be more an issue of "save the DPS" - they would be more likely to have run to me with something chasing them.

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I see what you're getting at here - and agree to a certain extent; shades of OG Illidan - but at the same time the fact that your sub-party required a healer to function autonomously means there was a priority placed on healing.

Or, let's use an example from FFXIV to illustrate a difference - the Althyk/Nymeia fight in Euphosyne, one of the few fights in FFXIV where legitimate off-tanking is required. In many other MMOs that off-tank would need a dedicated healer to keep them up. In terms of encounter design this wasn't done to give that healer a super-engaging thing to do - they're only keeping one guy up after all - but to remove one healer from the healing pool for the rest of the raid. The off-tank healer would have to heal enough damage (or carefully manage their resources) to keep that guy up, and as a result they would rarely if ever be able to assist the rest of the raid who now has one fewer healer to keep everyone else alive. This is what made these kinds of fights entertaining - everyone had a dedicated purpose that required their full attention and if people failed at their jobs you weren't successful.

In FFXIV? Maybe you toss a regen on the off-tank. Often your AoE healing for the rest of the raid is enough to keep the off-tank up. Commonly they're able to keep themselves up and require no attention at all.

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Originally Posted by Rikka_Chu

If you think that Raids and Savage content are waste of time in MMO, then I think you mistaken games. You should be playing Second Life right now. MMO's are not about showing off your glam 100% of time, and trying to make cute screenshoots.

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I'm an ultimate player so I like raiding but I still find your answer kinda rude.

Taste judgment aside, raiding takes time that not everyone can devote to the game, and we raiders are only a small part of the player base.

What's more, you should consider that raiding isn't necessarily a priority for players when they log on to the game. Deep dive dungeons, criterion, 24-man, normal raid/trials, Hunt and so on are a bigger part of the game than savage/ultimate content. Not even mentioning the non-fighting activities.

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Originally Posted by Amity_Roji

That's fair in a lot of cases. I think back to OG WoW raids like UBRS, where healing was so prioritized you'd have Paladins wearing cloth and people prioritizing their survival because if your healers went down you were completely screwed. Another example is the Logistics role in EVE Online, where in PvE content (such as Incursions) if a logi ship is aggro'd the entire group will immediately stop what they are doing and focus all attention on saving the logi as they're the only thing keeping their ships from returning to their natural state as minerals floating in space. Granted that's not a "traditional MMO" but the role and its place in the game still stands.


I see what you're getting at here - and agree to a certain extent; shades of OG Illidan - but at the same time the fact that your sub-party required a healer to function autonomously means there was a priority placed on healing.

Or, let's use an example from FFXIV to illustrate a difference - the Althyk/Nymeia fight in Euphosyne, one of the few fights in FFXIV where legitimate off-tanking is required. In many other MMOs that off-tank would need a dedicated healer to keep them up. In terms of encounter design this wasn't done to give that healer a super-engaging thing to do - they're only keeping one guy up after all - but to remove one healer from the healing pool for the rest of the raid. The off-tank healer would have to heal enough damage (or carefully manage their resources) to keep that guy up, and as a result they would rarely if ever be able to assist the rest of the raid who now has one fewer healer to keep everyone else alive. This is what made these kinds of fights entertaining - everyone had a dedicated purpose that required their full attention and if people failed at their jobs you weren't successful.

In FFXIV? Maybe you toss a regen on the off-tank. Often your AoE healing for the rest of the raid is enough to keep the off-tank up. Commonly they're able to keep themselves up and require no attention at all.

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This is the one thing I feel that is stopping FFXIV from being the best it can be, the fact that healers don't have to do these kinds of things.

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Originally Posted by Wildheaven182

Honestly, just add some damage around. Give healers something to heal, it's not hard. Unavoidable damage that isnt a lot but can add up if ignored. Give me something to cleanse. Not hard. Get rid of vulnerability if you have to, theres nothing to heal if people are either full hp or dead from missing 2 mechanics. Let us cleanse vulnerability. Something.

Just lazy and safe uncreative development. Theyre too scared of expecting someone who has reached level 90 to actually know how to do anything at all whatsoever.
This is a video game. If they cant press buttons in an order then let them lose.

No one cares about savage. Make it less about researching for a test and more like i dunno, playing a video game and people might play it.

Balance for the majority of content people play which is guess what, normie content. Raids are a waste of time to develop.
Dont make battle content for the lowest common denominator of plot watchers who will never like it. Then youre just making easy boring stuff that no one likes. Raider trash even say who even cares about dungeons anyway.

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Thank you for saying this!!

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Originally Posted by Hellebore_Ghrian

I'm an ultimate player so I like raiding but I still find your answer kinda rude.

Taste judgment aside, raiding takes time that not everyone can devote to the game, and we raiders are only a small part of the player base.

What's more, you should consider that raiding isn't necessarily a priority for players when they log on to the game. Deep dive dungeons, criterion, 24-man, normal raid/trials, Hunt and so on are a bigger part of the game than savage/ultimate content. Not even mentioning the non-fighting activities.

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This is true and also a problem imo. I'm of the mind that Savage and Ultimates should have been their own mode like PVP, but the time has passed for that. They are at odds with making a compelling game the rest of the time. As I've said before a lot of job homogenization and simplifying has nothing to do with the story players and everything to do with raiders, particularly raiders who mainly play the game to compete against other people (even in PvE situations). The majority of the game might be casual but ultimately gameplay is tuned for high end.

Oops, I missed this one, soz.

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Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer

Pretty much the only healing spell you actually have to think about anymore is raise, that cast time doesn't mess around and it's a non-trivial amount of mp, and they proceeded to add a bunch of body checks lmao.

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Every healer class has the ability to insta-cast a rez (as can Summoners and Red Mages), and as a WHM I can also do it for 0 MP with Thin Air - twice. Even if my Swiftcast is on cooldown I can pop Presence of Mind and dramatically reduce the cast time if I need a second rez, and in most encounters it's easier to do this while avoiding mechanics than it is for a BLM to fully utilize their leylines.

That said, I kinda think of rezzing as somewhat irrelevant to the argument as it's a cut-and-dry example of a "recovery tool" - you're only using it if someone screwed up.

Hell, in a lot of MMOs the idea of being able to rez someone during an encounter at all is a rare and/or alien thing.

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Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer

I don't know if adding active aggro management back would actually be an improvement (like genuinely I don't know, Endwalker baby) but it's interesting just how many obvious healer things just, aren't. I don't even know the last time a Paladin covered me, might have never happened, even those opposed to the "strike" are often like "yeah healer is a crutch but."

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If I were doing a post for #FFXIVTANKSTRIKE I would absolutely bring up active aggro management as a thing missing from that role. I don't think a return to stuff like Classic WoW's "Ok, nobody DPS until I've got three Sunder Armor stacks" uber-hardcore aggro management would be good, but having something to make it at least relevant would be nice. As it sits all tanks have to do is pop a tank stance and they could literally faceroll their way to holding aggro.

And the only time I've ever had a tank cover me in recent years in this game is if a boss mechanic explicitly requires it (scripted tank LB3 or the like).

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Originally Posted by Amity_Roji

That's fair in a lot of cases. I think back to OG WoW raids like UBRS, where healing was so prioritized you'd have Paladins wearing cloth and people prioritizing their survival because if your healers went down you were completely screwed. Another example is the Logistics role in EVE Online, where in PvE content (such as Incursions) if a logi ship is aggro'd the entire group will immediately stop what they are doing and focus all attention on saving the logi as they're the only thing keeping their ships from returning to their natural state as minerals floating in space. Granted that's not a "traditional MMO" but the role and its place in the game still stands.


I see what you're getting at here - and agree to a certain extent; shades of OG Illidan - but at the same time the fact that your sub-party required a healer to function autonomously means there was a priority placed on healing.

Or, let's use an example from FFXIV to illustrate a difference - the Althyk/Nymeia fight in Euphosyne, one of the few fights in FFXIV where legitimate off-tanking is required. In many other MMOs that off-tank would need a dedicated healer to keep them up. In terms of encounter design this wasn't done to give that healer a super-engaging thing to do - they're only keeping one guy up after all - but to remove one healer from the healing pool for the rest of the raid. The off-tank healer would have to heal enough damage (or carefully manage their resources) to keep that guy up, and as a result they would rarely if ever be able to assist the rest of the raid who now has one fewer healer to keep everyone else alive. This is what made these kinds of fights entertaining - everyone had a dedicated purpose that required their full attention and if people failed at their jobs you weren't successful.

In FFXIV? Maybe you toss a regen on the off-tank. Often your AoE healing for the rest of the raid is enough to keep the off-tank up. Commonly they're able to keep themselves up and require no attention at all.

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Hi yes, I never played WOW, nor Eve, although I'm familiar with both games, however I think you've captured what was significant there anyways. Each of the roles played a significant part in those encounters, as you say, and each was reliant upon the other. Each role had a very interesting part to play.

Now I'm not going into detail, if I was going to talk about healers, I could say that their role varied, dependant upon the circumstances in one game- from solely focussed on healing, to healing with some DPS, or being DPS equivalent to a summoner with a raise. It made for a very fun healer because it allowed for the best skills according to the type of content and/or party.

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Originally Posted by Amity_Roji

Oops, I missed this one, soz.


Every healer class has the ability to insta-cast a rez (as can Summoners and Red Mages), and as a WHM I can also do it for 0 MP with Thin Air - twice. Even if my Swiftcast is on cooldown I can pop Presence of Mind and dramatically reduce the cast time if I need a second rez, and in most encounters it's easier to do this while avoiding mechanics than it is for a BLM to fully utilize their leylines.

That said, I kinda think of rezzing as somewhat irrelevant to the argument as it's a cut-and-dry example of a "recovery tool" - you're only using it if someone screwed up.

Hell, in a lot of MMOs the idea of being able to rez someone during an encounter at all is a rare and/or alien thing.


If I were doing a post for #FFXIVTANKSTRIKE I would absolutely bring up active aggro management as a thing missing from that role. I don't think a return to stuff like Classic WoW's "Ok, nobody DPS until I've got three Sunder Armor stacks" uber-hardcore aggro management would be good, but having something to make it at least relevant would be nice. As it sits all tanks have to do is pop a tank stance and they could literally faceroll their way to holding aggro.

And the only time I've ever had a tank cover me in recent years in this game is if a boss mechanic explicitly requires it (scripted tank LB3 or the like).

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Just regarding the raise being rare or alien concept?

Maybe for you, I find it rather surprising that you'd say so. As a healer in at least one game, I had access to a self-raise and multiple party raises. here's an example in one game
https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Grace_of_Resurrection_I and here's another one from the same game https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Resurrection_Loci_I

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Just regarding the raise being rare or alien concept?

Maybe for you, I find it rather surprising that you'd say so. As a healer in at least one game, I had access to a self-raise and multiple party raises. here's an example in one game
https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Grace_of_Resurrection_I and here's another one from the same game https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Resurrection_Loci_I

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Different games, different systems.
WoW is very limited when it comes to Combat Resses.

Then we have GW2 where anyone can bring a player back, healer or not as often as someone would happen to fall.