Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Xelanar

Sometimes I have to refresh my DoT on TWO targets. I feel enormously challenged by that. Please remove healer DoTs next expansion.

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Watch them do this for every healer except SGE and then people will unironically say "SGE has more complex healer DPS than every other healer, if you want to DPS more go play SGE" lmao

Wonder what the bets are on the director saying something along the lines of "go play Criterion/Variant dungeons" in the near future

i think the players should engage in a game of 24 while playing jobs to stay engaged.

This thread deserves to be pinned honestly; it won’t, but it falling onto later pages gives the developers another excuse to ignore massive healer outcries.

It's important to note that not every healer cries about the same thing.

For example, I mained healer until StB. Yea SCH got it's gameplay gutted but that's fine. My issue was what I got in return. All of my missing skills that I had fun using got replaced with 1 aoe. Sure. What's the aoe? I slap the ground and make a circle that lasts 2 seconds and looks pretty lame. If I got some cool shit instead in the animation I would probably be fine. If I had gotten AST's Gravity or something never would've heard from me.

1 single target attack cause you just want me on 1 button? Cool. Can I at least get the melee pvp treatment? Turn my 1 button into something that cycles between 3 animations. They don't even need to do different potencies. Again, the rule of cool is a powerful thing. I think healing is cool.

Before, I got my cool from running through my SCH hotbars on controller which made me feel accomplished. But considering SMN is dirt easy and great fun, I can be appeased by making the replacement shiny enough. I still like being a healer. I like being awesome more. And I could care less how that awesomeness comes about.

For every healer wanting for shit to go wrong, there's a dps hoping their healer doesn't let them get two shot because they (the dps) slipped up once. Every extra raid wide is another chance for a healer not as good as another to let that dps with 2vuns die because they weren't topped off in preparation. Every addition of constant dot damage means every vun becomes a constant worry for the healer and the dps who's relying on them. This of course assumes the healer isn't playing god already and deciding their not worth the split focus (guilty). You can say they should not get vuns. But then why should they be expected not to make mistakes in content meant to be casual. And if you agree with that, then how is telling someone to play higher content a bad thing? And if that isn't your issue then his (Yoshi-Ps) comment doesn't have anything to do with you and we return to, "not every healer cries about the same things".

I feel for you (this thread) but I can't say I'm on your side. I run Dun Scaith as a healer if I want to carry someone. The current alliance raid is pretty good for some full party recoveries as well. I'd be fine with just more effort into what I have left. I agree with that response for a specific subset of healers but the rest including myself shouldn't really be up in arms about it. Like most things, it makes sense for some and not for others. I play GNB now because that thing is like a melee off-healer and saving some random dps from death every 30 sec or so feels nice while developing hand cramps.

There is no easy answer for healers on mass and acting like there is only cheapens the discussion even if you have a good point.

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Originally Posted by Ryoutoshi

It's important to note that not every healer cries about the same thing.

For example, I mained healer until StB. Yea SCH got it's gameplay gutted but that's fine. My issue was what I got in return. All of my missing skills that I had fun using got replaced with 1 aoe. Sure. What's the aoe? I slap the ground and make a circle that lasts 2 seconds and looks pretty lame. If I got some cool shit instead in the animation I would probably be fine. If I had gotten AST's Gravity or something never would've heard from me.

1 single target attack cause you just want me on 1 button? Cool. Can I at least get the melee pvp treatment? Turn my 1 button into something that cycles between 3 animations. They don't even need to do different potencies. Again, the rule of cool is a powerful thing. I think healing is cool.

Before, I got my cool from running through my SCH hotbars on controller which made me feel accomplished. But considering SMN is dirt easy and great fun, I can be appeased by making the replacement shiny enough. I still like being a healer. I like being awesome more. And I could care less how that awesomeness comes about.

For every healer wanting for shit to go wrong, there's a dps hoping their healer doesn't let them get two shot because they (the dps) slipped up once. Every extra raid wide is another chance for a healer not as good as another to let that dps with 2vuns die because they weren't topped off in preparation. Every addition of constant dot damage means every vun becomes a constant worry for the healer and the dps who's relying on them. This of course assumes the healer isn't playing god already and deciding their not worth the split focus (guilty). You can say they should not get vuns. But then why should they be expected not to make mistakes in content meant to be casual. And if you agree with that, then how is telling someone to play higher content a bad thing? And if that isn't your issue then his (Yoshi-Ps) comment doesn't have anything to do with you and we return to, "not every healer cries about the same things".

I feel for you (this thread) but I can't say I'm on your side. I run Dun Scaith as a healer if I want to carry someone. The current alliance raid is pretty good for some full party recoveries as well. I'd be fine with just more effort into what I have left. I agree with that response for a specific subset of healers but the rest including myself shouldn't really be up in arms about it. Like most things, it makes sense for some and not for others. I play GNB now because that thing is like a melee off-healer and saving some random dps from death every 30 sec or so feels nice while developing hand cramps.

There is no easy answer for healers on mass and acting like there is only cheapens the discussion even if you have a good point.

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Do you know what a SAM does that doesn't want to learn and play the correct Hagakure loop? They don't do it. (Guilty)
Do you know what a BLM does that doesn't like the tighter timing that comes with Transpose lines? They don't use them. (Sometimes guilty)
Do you what MNKs did that didn't want to learn the correct branching combos? Not use them and instead use 123456 on repeat. (Guilty)

If the healing requirements don't get increased as they've stated they won't, that's one thing. But pretending that obscene amount of downtime doesn't exist for many players by also refusing to give us decent downtime gameplay and then telling these players to play Ultimate (where it's the same 1 button spam btw) or go do old alli raids that offer no real reward for running them ad nauseum in hopes of getting a bad party so they can be engaged is tone-deaf, dismissive and ignorant of alternatives.
Because you could absolutely give healers a more engaging dps rotation for downtime and if someone isn't playing healer well enough to manage that they can simply not use it and instead stick to 1 dot/ 1 filler while learning instead of going the full route. Like players of other classes do that are not up for certain intricaties of their rotation.
The beauty of better downtime options like more dps buttons is that it's entirely up to the devs how much of a dps increase using 6 buttons over 1 dot/ 1 nuke is. They could design it in a way that a full and perfectly executed 6 button rotation is only a 2% dps increase over just using 1 dot/ 1 filler after the rework and I guarantee you that the currently bored healers would do it. They do things for less gain than that (*cough*30potencygainDissipation*cough*). While the learning players could still contribute with quite well if they stick to the very basics.

If an entire role can only be engaging in the topmost endgame content or old content with a hilariously bad party for many players than something is seriously wrong with the role - NOT the player. I expect better from a multimillion dollar company than trying to blame the player for their bad role design.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

This thread deserves to be pinned honestly; it won’t, but it falling onto later pages gives the developers another excuse to ignore massive healer outcries.

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Just gotta come in every now and then and give it a lil bump.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

If the healing requirements don\\'t get increased as they\\'ve stated they won\\'t, that\\'s one thing. But pretending that obscene amount of downtime doesn\\'t exist for many players by also refusing to give us decent downtime gameplay and then telling these players to play Ultimate (where it\\'s the same 1 button spam btw) or go do old alli raids that offer no real reward for running them ad nauseum in hopes of getting a bad party so they can be engaged is tone-deaf, dismissive and ignorant of alternatives.
Because you could absolutely give healers a more engaging dps rotation for downtime and if someone isn\\'t playing healer well enough to manage that they can simply not use it and instead stick to 1 dot/ 1 filler while learning instead of going the full route. Like players of other classes do that are not up for certain intricaties of their rotation.
The beauty of better downtime options like more dps buttons is that it\\'s entirely up to the devs how much of a dps increase using 6 buttons over 1 dot/ 1 nuke is. They could design it in a way that a full and perfectly executed 6 button rotation is only a 2% dps increase over just using 1 dot/ 1 filler after the rework and I guarantee you that the currently bored healers would do it. They do things for less gain than that (*cough*30potencygainDissipation*cough*). While the learning players could still contribute with quite well if they stick to the very basics.

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Why does it seem like you agree with me but don\\'t want to admit it?

You just mentioned how there\\'s one issue, then there are others. You also expressed the same issue I have (the downtime being boring) but with different solutions that would be satisfying to you.

My point was that there are multiple issues affecting healers and one response does not get directed to every single one of them. All of those reason are valid. Would it make sense for the response we got to be applied to each one of those? No. But it is a good answer to 1 of the healer\\'s issues. If your one of those, maybe you should listen. If your not (which you don\\'t seem like it since I\\'m pretty sure we\\'re agreeing right now), then his response wasn\\'t to you or about you. You and I should relax because there is no reason to believe that our point isn\\'t still being considered. Maybe bandwagon on a thread more focused on the issue at hand instead of one just railing at 1 response to 1 issue that not even ours? Pretty sure not everyone here even falls into the demographic that response would affect. All I\\'m saying.

The forums still have this weird glitch where previewing posts with apostrophes causes multiple backslash characters to appear before them; been noticing this for months now, but it just happened again.

You know what, this perspective on the recent live letter gave me a little hope that life can be good after all.
https://youtu.be/KwhPk8fPzdE


(just not for healers)

Greetings, i am here to BUMP this one up because SE likes to ignore healers ^^
My offer stands, Yoshida, play healer for full Raid tier and you will see what my problem is... as if anybody from SE is reading this - ever.

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

Greetings, i am here to BUMP this one up because SE likes to ignore healers ^^
My offer stands, Yoshida, play healer for full Raid tier and you will see what my problem is... as if anybody from SE is reading this - ever.

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Just raids? Make them play everything as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Just raids? Make them play everything as a healer.

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This! The joy of leveling up 90 lvls with one attack. Only to realize that's all they'll ever use in any content. I would sub to this stream.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

This! The joy of leveling up 90 lvls with one attack. Only to realize that's all they'll ever use in any content. I would sub to this stream.

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What do you mean? Solo duties on healer are fun. You don't even need to heal anything, you can just focus on your rotation. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by EaMett

This! The joy of leveling up 90 lvls with one attack. Only to realize that's all they'll ever use in any content. I would sub to this stream.

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But, But, that one attack changes its animation so it's like learning a completely new attack, so it varies and keeps it interesting!

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Originally Posted by Amenara

But, But, that one attack changes its animation so it's like learning a completely new attack, so it varies and keeps it interesting!

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Don't forget how exciting a small potency upgrade is. It's a literal gamechanger.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Don't forget how exciting a small potency upgrade is. It's a literal gamechanger.

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When I saw that we were going from Broil III at 290 potency in ShB to Broil IV at 295 potency in EW, I was shaking with how excited I was. I couldn't believe they were so generous with a whole 5 potency. I'm going to probably scream in excitement when 7.0 comes out and Broil V hits 300 potency, playing SCH going to be WILD once it hits 300!!!

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

When I saw that we were going from Broil III at 290 potency in ShB to Broil IV at 295 potency in EW, I was shaking with how excited I was. I couldn't believe they were so generous with a whole 5 potency. I'm going to probably scream in excitement when 7.0 comes out and Broil V hits 300 potency, playing SCH going to be WILD once it hits 300!!!

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I'm sorry I found this funny, I know I shouldn't but honestly it was well done. I wish we could vote you in to ask questions in a live letter.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

When I saw that we were going from Broil III at 290 potency in ShB to Broil IV at 295 potency in EW, I was shaking with how excited I was. I couldn't believe they were so generous with a whole 5 potency. I'm going to probably scream in excitement when 7.0 comes out and Broil V hits 300 potency, playing SCH going to be WILD once it hits 300!!!

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another generation or so and we can get 420 like SGE and GNB.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

When I saw that we were going from Broil III at 290 potency in ShB to Broil IV at 295 potency in EW, I was shaking with how excited I was. I couldn't believe they were so generous with a whole 5 potency. I'm going to probably scream in excitement when 7.0 comes out and Broil V hits 300 potency, playing SCH going to be WILD once it hits 300!!!

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These are the same designers that worked on new animations for Holy 3 (skipping Holy 2), and slapping a whopping TEN whole extra potency on it.

This is the kind of stuff they come up with. It's like they were done with everything else and were like, well sh!t, we didn't do anything with WHM.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

These are the same designers that worked on new animations for Holy 3 (skipping Holy 2), and slapping a whopping TEN whole extra potency on it.

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To be fair, that mostly just comes from III (-Ga) generally being the empowered version in naming conventions, and II (-Ra) instead being an AoE.

Why they followed that convention suddenly for Holy and Glare, yet not for Broil and Malefic before, though... well, that's a mystery.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

To be fair, that mostly just comes from III (-Ga) generally being the empowered version in naming conventions, and II (-Ra) instead being an AoE.

Why they followed that convention suddenly for Holy and Glare, yet not for Broil and Malefic before, though... well, that's a mystery.

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I understand why they did it, but like you said, the inconsistency is what is questionable. It's less about the name and more about the lazy implementation and the semi-insulting potency they tacked onto it.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I understand why they did it, but like you said, the inconsistency is what is questionable. It's less about the name and more about the lazy implementation and the semi-insulting potency they tacked onto it.

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-Ga/III shouldn't mean... "plus a tickle"?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

-Ga/III shouldn't mean... "plus a tickle"?

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In the end, yeah.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I understand why they did it, but like you said, the inconsistency is what is questionable. It's less about the name and more about the lazy implementation and the semi-insulting potency they tacked onto it.

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Hmm, what i wish for is that those evolved skills get more than just potency. Synergy or some kind of reward when used in a certain way and not only just dps... or atleast not a 10 potency increase.

Maybe having healers down to such a basic rotation is a good thing after all.
I mean, tanks who pull every mob in existence without using tank stance, cooldowns or AoE abilities are perfectly fine.
I see no issue with Blizzard Mages either, or with Summoners prefering not to summon. Or with Ninjas whose favorite Ninjutsu is Rabbit Spam IV. And Red Mages keeping their distance all the time, because of course - they are casters? Fine too! And level 90 Lancers? They ARE easier to play as, so why not?

But good lord, imagine a HEALER not playing their role. We cannot have that. Right?
Such pressure lies on their shoulders. One single misstep kills them, leaving back a helpless party, slowly being overwhelmed by such a gravitational loss. Because especially in casual content healers are absolutely indispensable. DPS will never be able to survive the myriads of incomming party-wide AoE. Also Tanks would never be able to keep themselves alive without a healer. Right? There ist just NO way they could do that.

So of course healers should not have more challenging downtime. Their responsibility is just too much to bear. If anything, Malefic should only be useable outside of parties.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This is effectively what the lead designer of this game told Healers in the latest live letter.

Consider if he had said that about your role (tank / dps) for a second and how you would feel.

Forget the leveling experience, it doesn't matter.

Forget dungeons up to 90, they don't matter.

Forget normal raids, EX's, and Savage, they don't matter.

If you want your job to be engaging, play Ultimate, the hardest content in the game that only a few percentage of actual players do.

Engagement shouldn't be either 0% or 100%. It shouldn't be either braindead easy in 95% of content or pull your hair out in the hardest thing the game offers.

The same basic damage rotation from level 4 to level 90 (A 30s dot and a filler spell) is not acceptable gameplay or game design.

Edit:

Yoshi-P's statement is about as tone deaf as the Lead Designer of WoW flat out saying they didn't want players playing a certain DPS spec. (Language warning)

Background: Instead of properly balancing a certain DPS spec, the WoW devs nuked it to the ground so people would play other things.

Sound familiar?

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The only words that came to mind when reading this were drama queen.

180 pages... Would it help if YoshiP came and kissed each of you individually on the forehead? Would that make you feel better?

I don't know who needs to hear this, but this is a video game—play it if it's fun for you, or go do something else if it's not.

Y'all need to chill.

Personally I am doing something else. I only log on to raid and manage my FC lately and I'd jump ship the moment a better MMO came along that treated me like I have more than a single brain cell.

It's just feedback. The developers don't have to do it, but players are perfectly entitled to be vocal about things they really dislike.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

180 pages... Would it help if YoshiP came and kissed each of you individually on the forehead? Would that make you feel better?

I don't know who needs to hear this, but this is a video game—play it if it's fun for you, or go do something else if it's not.

Y'all need to chill.

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Spoiler: that’s what a lot of us are doing :rolleyes:

Imagine trying to use a discussion forum to put forward criticism and suggestions that could improve the game eh ;)

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Spoiler: that’s what a lot of us are doing :rolleyes:

Imagine trying to use a discussion forum to put forward criticism and suggestions that could improve the game eh ;)

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How dare you.. this is a sacred place where we all worship Yoshida and his work. /s
Funny these guys who get what they wanted say "its all fine, I HAVE WHAT I WANTED so please be silent".

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

180 pages... Would it help if YoshiP came and kissed each of you individually on the forehead? Would that make you feel better?

I don't know who needs to hear this, but this is a video game—play it if it's fun for you, or go do something else if it's not.

Y'all need to chill.

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Silence, DPS main

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

180 pages... Would it help if YoshiP came and kissed each of you individually on the forehead? Would that make you feel better?

I don't know who needs to hear this, but this is a video game—play it if it's fun for you, or go do something else if it's not.

Y'all need to chill.

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I already Netflix and Chill during content.

Remedy yourself out of this thread then.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

180 pages... Would it help if YoshiP came and kissed each of you individually on the forehead? Would that make you feel better?

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You've used that line in another thread; do you think about YoshiP kissing people on their forehead often? I sure do. ₍՞◌′ᵕ‵ू◌₎♡♥

I'm only playing single-players/ co-ops lately, I'm looking for another MMO and I'm ready to jump ship any time and I'm netflixing and chill while playing healer - rare is it is nowadays.
Sounds like I'm doing everything right c:

But perhaps you need to chill a bit if this thread irks you so much that you have to come in and tell everyone that they need to chill? Should we kiss you on the forehead? I'd even lift our pint-sized healers up to reach it.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

180 pages... Would it help if YoshiP came and kissed each of you individually on the forehead? Would that make you feel better?

I don't know who needs to hear this, but this is a video game—play it if it's fun for you, or go do something else if it's not.

Y'all need to chill.

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This is a place where feedback should be presented. Square Enix can decide to ignore it or listen to it. Either way, people will make up their minds and unsub the moment they feel the game is longer worth their time and money. People here are trying to prevent the game from becoming worthless and meaningless software that nobody enjoys using. This will happen inevitably happen if the game no longer satisfies the needs of people who play games. Current healer design do not meet the needs of a significant amount of dedicated healer mains and you can barely come across a skilled and versed in healing player who will not agree with most of the criticism against the design. There is no point in having healer jobs continue existing in the game if those who have mastered it oftentimes end up boycotting the role. This is not a normal path to mastery nor is healthy for the player base.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

180 pages... Would it help if YoshiP came and kissed each of you individually on the forehead? Would that make you feel better?

I don't know who needs to hear this, but this is a video game—play it if it's fun for you, or go do something else if it's not.

Y'all need to chill.

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I stopped having fun when my role became boring to play so I cancelled my sub and went back to ESO. That game is a hot mess but at least healing is engaging.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

I don't know who needs to hear this, but this is a video game—play it if it's fun for you, or go do something else if it's not.

Y'all need to chill.

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Queue into dailies, play with one hand while the other hand trying to search for good YT/Netflix and/or chatting with friends on mobile. Then when some oopsie made I just siad ”Woops my bad :(“ then we carry on. Pretty chill, right?

Appreciate your kind words but please, step back before the fire catches you.

All the more reason to not play healer anymore. If you still play healer then you're part of the problem at this point. Things will only change when nobody plays healer anymore. If you don't want to spend your free time mashing 1 button then don't. They know you don't want to, they don't care because you're playing it anyway.

It kinda feels like they’re working in a direction where the holy trinity is optional (in the majority of content). You can already clear lots of normal content without a healer due to the fact that tanks have huge healing abilities and cds, plus a number of dps roles have party wide aoe healing abilities.

They don’t seem capable of creating a healing role that is inbetween “super stressful - I cant handle the incoming damage, and I’m getting toxicity because people are dying” (which is wow M+) and “I’m barely doing any healing at all, and my dps rotation is one button boredom, so I might as well play dps and chuck out and aoe heal occasionally”.