The Monk Temple

Why not open with ToD?

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Originally Posted by duceTRE

Why not open with ToD?

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The theory is, ToD used before GL3 = time wasted in getting to GL3. While I don't have the math to back it up, I think you should open with ToD if opening raw without PB, and use ToD immediately after PB if you open with that.

Demo Snap Snap DK Twin

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Demo Snap Snap DK Twin

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Doesn't that come out theoretically weaker?

Idk exactly, just wondering? I'm still leveling MNK so I really haven't tested anything really so I'm happy to admit I'm completely wrong. I don't really know what the rotation is post this part which is probably important because of the DoT overlapping.

Demo ticks for very high. Losing Demo ticks by waiting is not worth the %buff to Demo damage you gain by waiting.

Especially since you will/should recast Demo after the PB anyways, so you will clip some of the total DoT. Delaying the first Demo just means you'll clip more.

Not 100% positive but I think the sequence should come out as:

[PB]: DM SP SP DK TW
[Post-PB]: BS TR DM

GL3 should be maintained across the DK-TW-BS-TR, although that's something you want to verify in game.

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Originally Posted by Ihm

Doesn't that come out theoretically weaker?

Idk exactly, just wondering? I'm still leveling MNK so I really haven't tested anything really so I'm happy to admit I'm completely wrong. I don't really know what the rotation is post this part which is probably important because of the DoT overlapping.

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Get the Demo up first so it's ticking while you are going through the rest of PB to get your buffs up, when PB ends and you start your rotation up, you can then reapply demo fully buffed around the time the initial demo will be dropping. If an unbuffed Demolish runs it's course it is higher potency than something like snap punch or true strike so opening with it is more damage than not using it and trying to use another snap or true strike or whatever really.

Heh, learn something new everyday. I always placed demo after G3 was up. Ill try this instead and see how it works out.

Adding to the comments, would it be safe to say Fracture is better for short fights where TP is not an issue and for those where TP is an issue leaving Fracture out is probably a better option?

Adding to this, is it possible to keep GL3 up against Iffy ex? im having to run to the south constantly and by time i get back it just drops.

Lastly, is there a definitive rotation that should be used? I mean one that simply works the best in terms of timing and dots? Would be nice to compare with my own.

Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

The theory is, ToD used before GL3 = time wasted in getting to GL3. While I don't have the math to back it up, I think you should open with ToD if opening raw without PB, and use ToD immediately after PB if you open with that.

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Looks as though Mister Happy needs to update his video then. Not trying to call him out, his videos are informative, but he is giving people false perceptions.

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Originally Posted by KaosPrimeZero

Adding to the comments, would it be safe to say Fracture is better for short fights where TP is not an issue and for those where TP is an issue leaving Fracture out is probably a better option?

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Fracture:

1. Increases risk of dropping GL // should only be used on fights where you are very confident in the disengage timing and don't run any risk of dropping GL.

2. Adds maybe 1% total DPS.

3. Burns TP faster.

4. Uses up an xclass slot (although the 5th slot is not worth much).

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Adding to this, is it possible to keep GL3 up against Iffy ex? im having to run to the south constantly and by time i get back it just drops.

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Ifrit EX has some mandatory GL drops. Eruptions are not one of them. Hmmm ...

1. [Low-risk, low-practice] During the time when the howling goes out, use only cycle attacks (attacks that progress stances). E.g. no ToD, no Fracture.

2. [Low-risk, medium-practice] Position yourself on the opposite side of the howling for moving back. E.g. if the howling is going to the 9oclock ('west') healer, then position at ~5oclock. Run straight 'south'/back like normal. Stutter step every eruption (stop at the border of the eruption for a half second to drop the next eruption there -- if you simply run forward you can run too far / more than necessary). Hook towards the healer on the third eruption. Tackle as it drops. Note: if you don't have eruptions as you are running back, hook more sharply and tackle. Make sure you are to the side of the line of eruptions when you tackle.

3. [Medium-risk, high-practice] Position yourself far on the opposite side of the howling. E.g. if the howling is going to 9, then position at ~4. If you get the eruption, pause a half second and finish your attack, then continue as #2 above. If you don't get an eruption, move directly horizontal to dodge the other DPS' first eruption. Now step back to Ifrit and continue to pew pew. On phase 2 and 3 eruptions, Ifrit will follow the first eruption set with a knockback. Make sure you are on his flank so you get knocked sideways, not into eruptions and die like a noob ^_^.

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Lastly, is there a definitive rotation that should be used? I mean one that simply works the best in terms of timing and dots?

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Alternate DK-TW with BS-TR. Finish with SP. Use DM instead of DM is down / about to expire. Add ToD if ToD is down.

Monks have a very simple priority sequence.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Fracture:

1. Increases risk of dropping GL // should only be used on fights where you are very confident in the disengage timing and don't run any risk of dropping GL.

2. Adds maybe 1% total DPS.

3. Burns TP faster.

4. Uses up an xclass slot (although the 5th slot is not worth much).

Ifrit EX has some mandatory GL drops. Eruptions are not one of them. Hmmm ...

1. [Low-risk, low-practice] During the time when the howling goes out, use only cycle attacks (attacks that progress stances). E.g. no ToD, no Fracture.

2. [Low-risk, medium-practice] Position yourself on the opposite side of the howling for moving back. E.g. if the howling is going to the 9oclock ('west') healer, then position at ~5oclock. Run straight 'south'/back like normal. Stutter step every eruption (stop at the border of the eruption for a half second to drop the next eruption there -- if you simply run forward you can run too far / more than necessary). Hook towards the healer on the third eruption. Tackle as it drops. Note: if you don't have eruptions as you are running back, hook more sharply and tackle. Make sure you are to the side of the line of eruptions when you tackle.

3. [Medium-risk, high-practice] Position yourself far on the opposite side of the howling. E.g. if the howling is going to 9, then position at ~4. If you get the eruption, pause a half second and finish your attack, then continue as #2 above. If you don't get an eruption, move directly horizontal to dodge the other DPS' first eruption. Now step back to Ifrit and continue to pew pew. On phase 2 and 3 eruptions, Ifrit will follow the first eruption set with a knockback. Make sure you are on his flank so you get knocked sideways, not into eruptions and die like a noob ^_^.




Alternate DK-TW with BS-TR. Finish with SP. Use DM instead of DM is down / about to expire. Add ToD if ToD is down.

Monks have a very simple priority sequence.

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Thanks so much for the Information. Ill definitely try it out tonight with my static. At least if i fail there i fail with people i know right? lol As for the DK > TW > SP and BS > TR > SP thats what i already do, adding in DM and ToD when they drop. And for Titan Extreme at least i havent had much trouble including Fracture in my rotation but i see your point. Forseight (i think it is from DRG? or the defensive one either way) could replace that. Bloodbath i hardly ever use.

Thanks again, some really nice inputs. Titan ex, is a bit of hit and miss for me on jumps (basically depends on what he wants to do and how long he wants to stay invulnerable for....) but i can maintain it for most the fight :) My average DPS is about 220 - 235. Guess i have a long way to go before i hit the hights of 300+ dps >< But then again i am still missing a few BiS pieces.... Time to practice more and become better :D

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Originally Posted by duceTRE

Looks as though Mister Happy needs to update his video then. Not trying to call him out, his videos are informative, but he is giving people false perceptions.

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I do believe he says in his video the same thing. If you aren't opening with perfect balance put ToD up first. But I am curious whether opening with ToD (without PB) is considered less than optimal due to slowing down your stacking of GL, but I'd assume ToD's damage over the time you are stacking GL makes up for the single GCD you spent before starting to stack it. I don't have any math either but it sounds pretty negligible to me assuming it's even a loss.

Right before boss, I wait for the tank to b targeted then I use ST-ToD, I always open with that. Now this also depends on how start first, A I do st-tod-DK-TwS-DM-IR/b4b-PB-spx3-TwS-DK-DK-TwS-DM-bs-trs-sp,and B I do st-tod-ir/b4b-PB-DM-spx2-TwS-DK-DK-TwS-DM-boot-trs-sp

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Demo ticks for very high. Losing Demo ticks by waiting is not worth the %buff to Demo damage you gain by waiting.

Especially since you will/should recast Demo after the PB anyways, so you will clip some of the total DoT. Delaying the first Demo just means you'll clip more.

Not 100% positive but I think the sequence should come out as:

[PB]: DM SP SP DK TW
[Post-PB]: BS TR DM

GL3 should be maintained across the DK-TW-BS-TR, although that's something you want to verify in game.

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Thanks so much man! :)

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Demo ticks for very high. Losing Demo ticks by waiting is not worth the %buff to Demo damage you gain by waiting.

Especially since you will/should recast Demo after the PB anyways, so you will clip some of the total DoT. Delaying the first Demo just means you'll clip more.

Not 100% positive but I think the sequence should come out as:

[PB]: DM SP SP DK TW
[Post-PB]: BS TR DM

GL3 should be maintained across the DK-TW-BS-TR, although that's something you want to verify in game.

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I disagree.

This opening is clipping Demolish DoT and the first one with no buffs isn't that strong anyway. In my opinion, it's much better to open with ToD(Perfect Balance) -> Snap Punch(Blood for Blood) -> Snap Punch (Raging Strikes) -> Demolish -> Dragon Kick -> Twin Snakes -> Bootshine -> True Strike -> Snap Punch -> Fracture -> Dragon Kick -> Twin Snakes -> Demolish -> Bootshine -> True Strike -> Snap Punch -> ToD. This lets the first Demolish be much better buffed and also allows you to not clip the DoT at all. It times perfectly. I guess you -could- save the Blood for Blood and Infernal Release for later so that they are used for the second Demolish, but to be honest I think that you gain more DPS overall if their cooldowns are ticking as soon as possible.

While my highest maintainable DPS is just barely above 300 with my gear, with this opening I'm at above 300 DPS right after I'm done with this. It's quite a bit better than what you're suggesting according to my testing.

Maybe starting with the ToD before PB could perhaps not be optimal but it shouldn't be bad by any means, makes use of the Perfect Balance being off GCD, and makes sure you have enough time to get into position.

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Originally Posted by HoneyBiscuit

I do believe he says in his video the same thing. If you aren't opening with perfect balance put ToD up first. But I am curious whether opening with ToD (without PB) is considered less than optimal due to slowing down your stacking of GL, but I'd assume ToD's damage over the time you are stacking GL makes up for the single GCD you spent before starting to stack it. I don't have any math either but it sounds pretty negligible to me assuming it's even a loss.

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Well actually, according to my tests when you're not starting with Greased Lightning, it's a DPS loss to start with ToD, whereas when starting with PB, you usually can use the ToD while getting into position anyway. Perhaps it is bad even then, in which case I would just not use ToD at the start and replace the facture with the ToD after the first snap punch after PB.

Loosely reading the convoo, but no DoT besides Demolish should be used in Perfect Balance. You can start with ToD, THEN use PB. But youll want to get as many damage boosts and GL stacks as possible in PB. ToD does neither of those.

I personally go Demo - Snap - DK - TwS - Snap. Those first 2 stacks will allow me to get in 5 hits, i save the last Snap so i have a fresh GL timer. If you immediately go to your Snap Snap Demolish, your GL timer is already ticking down, and in a case where you are temporarily unable to hit your target, and you could def lose those stacks

Can someone answer me this question please.

At turn 5 when do you use your perfect balance? One at the beginning, one when the big snake appears and for dps during the last phase?
Do you just use it on cooldown for dps? Or do you save it in case you get targeted by stun/liquid hell/firestorm?

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Demo ticks for very high. Losing Demo ticks by waiting is not worth the %buff to Demo damage you gain by waiting.

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This is basically my logic for asking why we don't open with Demo. In the time it takes to go through the rotation twice and get your third stack of GL (where people say to use Demo), your first Demo could already have done more damage than Snap Punch would have.

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Originally Posted by MrDiezel

Loosely reading the convoo, but no DoT besides Demolish should be used in Perfect Balance. You can start with ToD, THEN use PB. But youll want to get as many damage boosts and GL stacks as possible in PB. ToD does neither of those.

I personally go Demo - Snap - DK - TwS - Snap. Those first 2 stacks will allow me to get in 5 hits, i save the last Snap so i have a fresh GL timer. If you immediately go to your Snap Snap Demolish, your GL timer is already ticking down, and in a case where you are temporarily unable to hit your target, and you could def lose those stacks

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I use the same set up. Most embarrassing thing that could happen to a monk is to lose gl3 right after using PB and putting the final snap at the end to refresh the gl timer gives a lot of room for unexpected situations (boss aggros healer and runs across the room for example).

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Originally Posted by Shayuki

ToD(Perfect Balance) -> Snap Punch(Blood for Blood) -> Snap Punch (Raging Strikes)

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I stopped reading there.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

This is basically my logic for asking why we don't open with Demo. In the time it takes to go through the rotation twice and get your third stack of GL (where people say to use Demo), your first Demo could already have done more damage than Snap Punch would have.

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When you don't use a PB opener, you're definitely. I'm not sure about PB, but you're asking about non-PB starting anyway.
Using Demo for the first GL stack will be a dps increase. I wouldn't use it for the second stack though, if you somehow mess up and SP the first.
Otherwise, it'll be falling off by the time you've got 3 stacks and you're ready to refresh it again.

It shouldn't even clip unless you've got an incredible amount of Skill Speed.
So it's pretty unquestionable.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

I stopped reading there.

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Wow I didnt even catch that... bahahaha!

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Originally Posted by Shayuki

I disagree.

This opening is clipping Demolish DoT and the first one with no buffs isn't that strong anyway.

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Using a 'late' DM (SP SP DM) delays the DM by roughly 4.8s, which means you lose 1.5 ticks of the DoT, a loss of 60p-ish. You gain 18% damage on the total DoT value, roughly .18*40*6 = 43.2-ish and 18% on the direct damage, +12.6. However, where you gain 18% on the DM, you lose 18% on the SP which you move ahead 2 slots, a loss of .18*180 = 32. Gain: 55.8; loss: 92. The other benefit is the avoidance of the clipping.

However, this is more difficult to model and would require a more robust DPS assessment. Avoiding the clipping means you delay your DM timing throughout the rest of your engagement. I actually put together a "MNK opener" model but I'm not 100% confident that the results are accurate.

Edit: Need to review and sit on it for a bit.

personaly i do PB-twin-demo-snap-snap-DK-DK(BfB)-twin(infernal)-demo-fract-TOD-dk-twin-snap-BS-TS-snap

so why twin as first skill when PB up?getting the buff followed by demo(buffed by twin)snap x2 for GL3 also buffed by twin,dk(debuff) another dk to start the rotation,starting to buff up between skill and then apply a fully buffed demo+fract+tod and then just start whith normal rotation with DK-twin and BS-TS.

i tested few way to start with PB and this one seem the best..i also tested opening with TOD before PB but it end up a dps lost each time.

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Originally Posted by Shayuki

I disagree.

This opening is clipping Demolish DoT and the first one with no buffs isn't that strong anyway. In my opinion, it's much better to open with ToD(Perfect Balance) -> Snap Punch(Blood for Blood) -> Snap Punch (Raging Strikes) -> Demolish -> Dragon Kick -> Twin Snakes -> Bootshine -> True Strike -> Snap Punch -> Fracture -> Dragon Kick -> Twin Snakes -> Demolish -> Bootshine -> True Strike -> Snap Punch -> ToD. This lets the first Demolish be much better buffed and also allows you to not clip the DoT at all. It times perfectly. I guess you -could- save the Blood for Blood and Infernal Release for later so that they are used for the second Demolish, but to be honest I think that you gain more DPS overall if their cooldowns are ticking as soon as possible.

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I'm guessing meant Internal Release? Because we certainly don't have Raging Strikes.

If you open your PB combo with Demo then by the time you do your first standard rotation you will be refreshing Demo pretty much right on time. There's should be little to no clipping. Using Demo later in a PB combo would actually be worse because you'd either let an under powered Demo tick out it's duration or you'd clip it with a stronger one sooner.

I personally like to do PB: DM SP DK TW SP then ToD and then lead right into BS TS DM. Timing on the Demo falls pretty much right in line with when the none buffed one is ending.

My skill speed is 415 and I've found it extremely difficult to get 5 attacks into PB like I used to.
It really bugs me, cause 5 lets you get 3 stacks of GL3 as well as both Twin and DK. Not sure what to do with 4.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

My skill speed is 415 and I've found it extremely difficult to get 5 attacks into PB like I used to.
It really bugs me, cause 5 lets you get 3 stacks of GL3 as well as both Twin and DK. Not sure what to do with 4.

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What order are you using? I can drop mine down to 411 and I still don't have an issue as long as I build two stacks first thing.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

What order are you using? I can drop mine down to 411 and I still don't have an issue as long as I build two stacks first thing.

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I've been trying different ones. I've been using Twin > Snap x 3 > DK most of the time, but I know that's not the best.
You're right, that probably makes the difference with the speed buff.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I've been trying different ones. I've been using Twin > Snap x 3 > DK most of the time, but I know that's not the best.
You're right, that probably makes the difference with the speed buff.

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I've played around with it quite a bit, and I've had the best success all-round with building two stacks first, then Dragon Kick/Twin Snakes, and then the last stack.

I do SP -> SP -> SP -> TW -> DM. I like to throw the fully buffed demolish in. That said, I never did the math. It just felt right to me. And, like others, I prefer to end with a move that refreshes my GL so I'm not in danger of losing GL3 if I have to break contact for whatever reason.

WTB Axe kick for PvE.

Demo > Snap > Snap > Dragon > Snap > Dragon > Twin > ToD > (optional Fracture) > Demo > Boot > True > Snap < etc...

If Fracture is used, Demo isn't clipped. If not used, you clip maybe 1 tick of Demo which is not a big deal as it is still well above Snap Punch in potency.

The 2nd Demolish and ToD (and Fracture) will be applied under the effects of GL3, BfB and Twin Snakes.

Twin Snakes never gets dropped after first application here.
Dragon Kick, applied during PB, gets dropped briefly right around after True Strike.

If you feel you can only get 4 attacks off during a PB make sure its GL3 + DK. DK will apply its debuff with PB where as any other time it would require a full rotation, where as TW can be applied instantly just 5 seconds later.

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Originally Posted by Traison

If you feel you can only get 4 attacks off during a PB make sure its GL3 + DK. DK will apply its debuff with PB where as any other time it would require a full rotation, where as TW can be applied instantly just 5 seconds later.

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Should always be able to get 5 attacks off unless you screw up. I can do 5 attacks with off-GCD buffs/skills between each on my MNK wearing nothing but AF pieces and a lv 55 NQ weapon, no belt, no accessories.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Demo > Snap > Snap > Dragon > Snap > Dragon > Twin > ToD > (optional Fracture) > Demo > Boot > True > Snap < etc...

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This seems wrong. Your DK debuff drops off briefly with this rotation you have 8-9 skills between DK applications.
[Demo -> Snap -> Snap -> DK -> Twin] -> Bootshine/DK -> Truestrike .
This rotation sould be more damage since Truestrike does more damage than a unneeded 3th Snap punch, you get your DK/Twin buffs up earlier for more damage overall

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Originally Posted by enil

This seems wrong. Your DK debuff drops off briefly with this rotation you have 8-9 skills between DK applications.
[Demo -> Snap -> Snap -> DK -> Twin] -> Bootshine/DK -> Truestrike .
This rotation sould be more damage since Truestrike does more damage than a unneeded 3th Snap punch, you get your DK/Twin buffs up earlier for more damage overall

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Yep, that's the other opener I'm messing with. Probably better.

Playing around with times i guess this would be ideal? However i guess this also requires you dont miss a single beat xD so not plausable in the real world of schemes. Or is this a pretty bad rotation?

*Numbers in brackets is the duration of the skill remaining)

ToD (ToD 30)
PB (ToD 28)
SP (ToD 25)
SP (ToD 23)
DK (ToD 21) (Dk 15 - seconds Lower blunt resistance)
TW (ToD 19) (TW 15 - seconds damage increase 5%) (DK 13)
DM (ToD 17) (DM 18) (DK 11), (TW 13)
BS (ToD 15) (DM 16) (DK 09), (TW 11)
TS (ToD 13) (DM 14) (DK 07), (TW 09)
SP (ToD 11) (DM 12) (DK 05), (TW 07)
DK (ToD 09) (DM 10) (DK 15), (TW 05)
TW (ToD 07) (DM 08) (DK 13), (TW 15)
BfB (ToD 05) (DM 06) (DK 11), (TW 13)
IR (ToD 03) (DM 04) (DK 09), (TW 11)
DM (ToD 01) (DM 18) (DK 07), (TW 09)
ToD (ToD 30) (DM 16) (DK 05), (TW 07)
BS (ToD 28) (DM 14) (DK 03), (TW 05)
TS (ToD 26) (DM 12) (DK 01), (TW 03)
SP (ToD 24) (DM 10) (DK 00), (TW 01)
DK (ToD 22) (DM 08) (DK 15), (TW 00)
TW (ToD 20) (DM 06) (DK 13), (TW 15)
SP (ToD 18) (DM 04) (DK 11), (TW 13)
BS (ToD 16) (DM 02) (DK 09), (TW 11)
TS (ToD 14) (DM 00) (DK 07), (TW 09)
DM (ToD 12) (DM 18) (DK 05), (TW 07)

Not sure how it stacks with others. Just messing about on paper etc on cooldown times etc etc. Just seems it leaves very little time to get B4B and IR back up again without risking dropping GL?

Think ill go back to the design desk... Any input be great :)

Ouch, the napkin math hurts for poking around with precise opening sequences. Use this spreadsheet: http://www.fileswap.com/dl/TQLL87KNWm/

:-P

I don't see auto attacks in this spreadsheet nor in any other opening sequences here. Are you ignoring 30% of a Monk's overall DPS when considering how to apply buffs or debuffs first?

The reason I don't like the Demo > Snap > Snap > DK > Twin opener is it forces me to put off on ToD (and Fracture), and makes it so it is not applied under BfB & IR. It also forces either a clipping of Demo too early, or putting it off another rotation.

These are the reasons I like my current opener, even though it has DK drop for ~1-2 skills. Everything is up for ToD and the reapplication of Demo (which also clips 1 tick at most), and overall up as early as possible, too.

Demo > BfB > Snap > IR > Snap > Steel > DK > Howl > Snap > DK > Twin > ToD > Demo > Boot* > True > Snap > DK > Twin > Snap > etc...

*Alternatively, one can replace this Boot with a DK, and make it so DK never drops. Should the DK here crit, it would be no different from a Bootshine anyway. On the other hand, if it does not crit, the DPS loss from it is theoretically greater than the DPS loss from having blunt resist down for 2 skills.

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Originally Posted by Vandesaan

I don't see auto attacks in this spreadsheet nor in any other opening sequences here. Are you ignoring 30% of a Monk's overall DPS when considering how to apply buffs or debuffs first?

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Yes, because the difference from buffs in any coherent opening sequence is like 10-20% increase damage to a single autoattack. Autoattacks are around 100p per 3s. So you can assume a 10-20p error in the total.

Edit: Feel free to add autos though. It wouldn't very hard I think, although the sequence timing would be off. Would probably have to assume a timing equal to the dt.

Edit2:

Actually, it's generally simple enough I went ahead and added it anyways. Thanks for the prodding ^_^.

http://www.fileswap.com/dl/EPADv6FdLu/