As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Because, as I said, you do whatever you need to do to clear. Personal enjoyment isn't a factor. I personally hate Sword oath, its clunky to move in and out of, and its effect is bland, but I still use it, because I am a terrible tank if I don't.

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we didnt need healer dps to clear though. And we didnt need it on a10s to clear either, well as for enjoyment factor .. Its a game? Well thats where Im coming from anyway. Furthermore You state that your a terrible tank if you dont dps is that because it increases aggro? Sorry for asking but I dont know exactly what a tank is supposed to do in savage if hes doing his job

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Originally Posted by Feyona

we didnt need healer dps to clear though. And we didnt need it on a10s to clear either, well as for enjoyment factor .. Its a game? Well thats where Im coming from anyway. Furthermore You state that your a terrible tank if you dont dps is that because it increases aggro? Sorry for asking but I dont know exactly what a tank is supposed to do in savage if hes doing his job

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a tank is supposed to hold enmity and survive every hit (especially tankbusters) plus 1 auto attack. everything else is over-mitigation, like a healer can overheal. when you can hold enmity and hit the mitigation requirement, all what is left is doing as much dps as possible.

of course it is a little bit more complicated than that. every mitigation is good mitigation, in wich regard you can't over-mitigate. however, sacrificing damage for mitigation wich you don't need (tank stance) is another thing than popping defensive cooldowns wich you don't need to survive, but have no drawbacks also.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Furthermore You state that your a terrible tank if you dont dps is that because it increases aggro?

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If I am in shield oath when I am off tanking I am generating unnecessary enmity and losing out on a huge chunk (around 20-25%) of DPS for basically no reason, that is why it is considered bad. Basically the same as cleric stance really.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Its a game?

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A multiplayer game. Your enjoyment is no more valid than anyone else in the party. If the party says you don't have to DPS then that's fine, that is team coordination and the strategy being built around players strengths and weaknesses, but if you think your personal enjoyment is more important than 7 other people in a PUG party then you are mistaken.

I feel like I have said that before... hmm... deja vu

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Originally Posted by Tint

a tank is supposed to hold enmity and survive every hit (especially tankbusters) plus 1 auto attack. everything else is over-mitigation, like a healer can overheal. when you can hold enmity and hit the mitigation requirement, all what is left is doing as much dps as possible.

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Yep no argument, was just wondering if it was essential for the job. In which case Im not sure it can be viewed as terrible if your doing your job. I get its not optimal play not to overheal or over mitigate but my argument is if optimal play should be a force, pressure, or stressing factor of the game. Ofc theres always pressure to do your job no question . My argumeng is whether awkward mechanics should be forced on people. When its either not necessary or people are uncomfotable doing it

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

If I am in shield oath when I am off tanking I am generating unnecessary enmity and losing out on a huge chunk (around 20-25%) of DPS for basically no reason, that is why it is considered bad. Basically the same as cleric stance really.



A multiplayer game. Your enjoyment is no more valid than anyone else in the party. If the party says you don't have to DPS then that's fine, that is team coordination and the strategy being built around players strengths and weaknesses, but if you think your personal enjoyment is more important than 7 other people in a PUG party then you are mistaken.

I feel like I have said that before... hmm... deja vu

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I know my personal enjoyment is not more valid than anyone elses please dont twist this. I was talking about stress and pressure put on people to do stuff outside their role unessarily. Plus I will say that my original point was about you hating the mechanic of it as well as me hating mine. And pressure to do something you hate is not about individual enjoyment its about game design and community pressure. Says more about people wanting to enjoy the game not about making others not enjoy their's

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Originally Posted by Feyona

its about game design versus community pressure

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The thing about that though is that the community pressure comes from the game design. Meta is formed by game mechanics, players only enforce it. You can play how you like in an isolated space, like a static with friends, but as soon as you go into the open world of party finder, then you are ruled by meta whether you like it or not. I would love to have a discussion about what can be done to shift the meta, but I will tell you that it would involve a radical shift in how a healer plays and it would likely add pressure in other ways.

I actually did my degree on this subject if you are interested (my early playtesters complained that they got bored with exclusively healing, which amuses me). I know exactly how complex role design can be, and I see many design decisions in this game which I maybe don't agree with, and the DPS meta is one of them. Like Yoshi P though, I know that outright removing cleric stance won't fix anything, and it would take a far more complicated design shift to fix that issue (which to some isn't an issue in the first place).

Edit: I should point out that despite disagreeing with design decisions, I still respect the intent of the content developers, that's why I defend the meta, because unless the developers see a clear problem, there's not much that can be done about it.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I know my personal enjoyment is not more valid than anyone elses please dont twist this. I was talking about stress and pressure. Put on people to do stuff outside their role unessarily

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You're talking about stress or pressure, but the topic that everyone keeps coming back to is savage content. So I want to address that specifically.

Savage content is really intended for those who want to "stress" about their performance and go up against a bigger challenge than the vanilla fare the rest of the game offers. It's not casual level content. It is for people who want to push themselves, especially if it's a trial or raid tier that's dropping before max gear is available.

Just the naming convention, "savage," "extreme," lets you know it's really there to push yourself as a player. So I think that going into that kind of content with the mindset that a person shouldn't be expecting pressure and is going for clears wanting to feel laid back and stress free is pretty unrealistic. Does that make sense?

This more challenging content is for people who want a bigger challenge, therefore for some people it's going to be greater stress. At least, until it's cleared and on farm. :)

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

You're talking about stress or pressure, but the topic that everyone keeps coming back to is savage content. So I want to address that specifically.

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While your points are valid and dong disagree Im stating that savage can be cleared in a casual way also. We dont need that optimal play in such a rigid way to do so. The content in itself has enough stress . I think you really can enjoy content without unnecessary stress put on people. If a mechanic is creating undue stress cos of the way its designed I would like sothing done about it though rather than just accept all people should always be able to do it, or be excuded. Content should be open to all approaches hard core or casual In my view anyway its not exclusive to hard core mentality

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The thing about that though is that the community pressure comes from the game design. Meta is formed by game mechanics, players only enforce it. You can play how you like in an isolated space.

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my specialization is psychology if you havent guessed. As such Ive studied what things impact on people. Whether anyone agrees or not Exclusion is classed as abuse in RL situations, and although no one is interested here Im here to advocate for enjoyment for all people whether they are optimal, or super skilled or not. I understand the meta. Whether it should be forced is what we are discussing. Only the game designers can change stuff though. You dont think dps healing is an issue I respect your opinion, but I do think it is in numerous ways.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Content should be open to all approaches hard core or casual In my view anyway its not exclusive to hard core mentality

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But it is! Find a group of like minded people, and/or do it when gear is higher than minimum (or now with added Echo.) So those options already exist.

I'm just pointing out the fact that this is the absolute most difficult content in the game. So far it's still probably around 6% of the total player base who has cleared A12S? Last I looked, it was 5%.

The people who are putting themselves into this content to begin with ought to, by definition, have a higher bar for stress or a greater capacity for higher level play than most people.

And this is an MMO. You're playing it with 7 other people. Everyone ought to be relatively on the same page for how you want to tackle the content with your own group. My group cracks a lot of jokes and talks a lot unless we're super focused on fight progression. Other groups prefer to operate in silence except for callouts. Everyone has to find their own best fit.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Exclusion is classed as abuse in RL situations

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There is a difference between exclusion and grouping. Different parties want different groups of people with different abilities. Are you seriously suggesting that if you aren't qualified for something then you are being abused?

If you really are interested in psychology, look up A theory of sequential reciprocity (Dufwenberg and Kirchsteiger) and Borstein's Ultimatum game, it is an interesting look at group behaviour within games.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

But it is! Find a group of like minded people, and/or do it when gear is higher than minimum (or now with added Echo.) So those options already exist.


And this is an MMO. You're playing it with 7 other people. Everyone ought to be relatively on the same page for how you want to tackle the content with your own group. My group cracks a lot of jokes and talks a lot unless we're super focused on fight progression.

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For sure higher bar for stress but mostly its kind of enjoyable stress, being in fear of not being optimal enough isnt really necessary. Still think content is nice to have a challenge otherwise, no one would play. Not sure if it induces that much stress though certainly nothing like the harrassment or coerceon to dps when people are needing to be healed. My opinion.
I do have a casual group its much nicer not to be pressured to be optimal

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

There is a difference between exclusion and grouping. Different parties want different groups of people with different abilities. Are you seriously suggesting that if you aren't qualified for something then you are being abused?

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ofc not its taking it a bit out of context and twisting it slightly. If you cant even get a group cos you dont dps as healer thats being excluded but yes this is an mmo oofc its different fom RL. Just said that because exclusion is un cormfortable for people and fear of being ostracized in that way creates stress not to be excuded, cos you cant play at optimal level.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

ofc not its taking it a bit out of context and twisting it slightly. If you cant even get a group cos you dont dps as healer thats being excluded but yes this is an mmo oofc its different fom RL. Just said that because exclusion is un cormfortable for people and fear of being ostracized in that way creates stress not to be excuded, cos you cant play at optimal level.

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Once again, this applies to all jobs. If a DPS is not putting up optimal numbers given their ilvl for their job, they'll be excluded in PF farm groups (for hard content). Same goes for tanks. If you always have friends who can play around you, then do whatever you'd like in comfort without judgement but once you go out into the wild, be prepared to be judged based on your performance. This is just how the world works. Also, personally, I've seen WAY more DPS being kicked for low damage than tank and healers combined. I can't even remember the last time a tank or healer was kicked from a farm group.

Also, if people out there want a challenge as a healer that's not DPS focused, try solo healing savage content. You'll get your enjoyment from that, right?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

ofc not its taking it a bit out of context and twisting it slightly. If you cant even get a group cos you dont dps as healer thats being excluded but yes this is an mmo oofc its different fom RL. Just said that because exclusion is un cormfortable for people and fear of being ostracized in that way creates stress not to be excuded, cos you cant play at optimal level.

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Its a high-pressure environment, there are people in the real world who can't handle, and subsequently don't get, high-pressure jobs. Theres no twisting, that is a matter of fact that a lot of people don't qualify for the groups, and they are not entitled to be in those groups, whether that makes them uncomfortable or not is actually irrelevant, as insensitive as that sounds.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

For sure higher bar for stress but mostly its kind of enjoyable stress, being in fear of not being optimal enough isnt really necessary. Still think content is nice to have a challenge otherwise, no one would play. Not sure if it induces that much stress though certainly nothing like the harrassment or coerceon to dps when people are needing to be healed. My opinion.
I do have a casual group its much nicer not to be pressured to be optimal

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i know exactly what you mean, i am almost quitting healing altogether because of the preassure of "doing more dps". regardless of how much dps i am already doing - staying there, doing nothing for 1 or 2 gcds, not knowing for sure what happens next, can i switch to cleric? should i stay in healing stance? will i labelled as "lazy" and whatnot (i read somewhere here healers who stay around and don't dps are the plague of FF14). it's not enjoyable at all. i tried tanking and dps classes. tanking of course has similar problems with stance dancing, but at least you are still moving while in tank stance, so nobody can say you are lazy, and i have fun with the dark knight. but also suffering from the infamous tankxiety... and i don't like any of the dps classes.
so quitting healing would mean quitting the game. but i don't want to quit the game. i am playing since 2013, made friends, had fun, cleared coil back then in 2.x and lots of other things, over 10k hours playtime... and now i shall quit because i am either doomed to run casual content wich doesn't require healing at all on the one side and shall not join any hardcore content on the other side because i just want to heal?

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Originally Posted by Tint

i know exactly what you mean, i am almost quitting healing altogether because of the preassure of "doing more dps". regardless of how much dps i am already doing - staying there, doing nothing for 1 or 2 gcds, not knowing for sure what happens next, can i switch to cleric? should i stay in healing stance? will i labelled as "lazy" and whatnot (i read somewhere here healers who stay around and don't dps are the plague of FF14). it's not enjoyable at all. i tried tanking and dps classes. tanking of course has similar problems with stance dancing, but at least you are still moving while in tank stance, so nobody can say you are lazy, and i have fun with the dark knight. but also the infamous tankxiety... i don't like any of the dps classes.
so quitting healing would mean quitting the game. but i don't want to quit the game. i am playing since 2013, made friends, had fun, cleared coil back then in 2.x and lots of other things, over 10k hours playtime... and now i shall quit because i am either doomed to run casual content wich doesn't require healing at all on the one side and shall not join any hardcore content on the other side because i just want to heal?

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Solo heal. Nobody should get on your case if you don't dps as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

Once again, this applies to all jobs. If a DPS is not putting up optimal numbers given their ilvl for their job If you always have friends who can play around you, then do whatever you'd like in comfort without judgement but once you go out into the wild, be prepared to be judged based on your performance. This is just how the world works. Also, personally, I've seen WAY more DPS being kicked for low damage than tank and healers combined.

Also, if people out there want a challenge as a healer that's not DPS focused, try solo healing savage content. You'll get your enjoyment from that, right?

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I do practically solo some savage content anyway. But I know how the world works. Im talking about one aspect of the game. If dps cant clear content its a different matter dps is absolutely necessary to clear, healer dps is not absolutely necessary. Therefore I question unecessary pressure

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Originally Posted by Tint

i know exactly what you mean, i am almost quitting healing altogether because of the preassure of "doing more dps". not knowing for sure what happens next, can i switch to cleric? should i stay in healing stance? will i labelled as "lazy" and whatnot (i read somewhere here healers who stay around and don't dps are the plague of FF14). it's not enjoyable at all. i tried tanking and dps classes.
so quitting healing would mean quitting the game. but i don't want to quit the game. i am playing since 2013, made friends, had fun, cleared coil back then in 2.x and lots of other things, over 10k hours playtime... and now i shall quit because i am either doomed to run casual content wich doesn't require healing at all on the one side and shall not join any hardcore content on the other side because i just want to heal?

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I got the same problem exactly.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

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I hope it would help.

http://i.imgur.com/jCucQaA.png

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Its a high-pressure environment, there are people in the real world who can't handle, and subsequently don't get, high-pressure jobs. Theres no twisting, that is a matter of fact that a lot of people don't qualify for the groups, and they are not entitled to be in those groups, whether that makes them uncomfortable or not is actually irrelevant, as insensitive as that sounds.

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Sorry but thats so elitist on a game that people should be allowed to enjoy. Words like not qualified, and shouldnt be there more or less is what your saying so only good ones allowed to play a game? And everyone else gtfo? So wrong lambadafish. And whats more you dont see whats wrong with healers doing their job well not being considered qualified

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Originally Posted by Wanzer

I hope it would help.

http://i.imgur.com/jCucQaA.png

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It does help thanks

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Not sure if it induces that much stress though certainly nothing like the harrassment or coerceon to dps when people are needing to be healed. My opinion.

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Not quite sure what you're saying here. In my experience there are a lot of things that can induce stress on every single member of the party. There are various pressure points in almost every fight that have to do with tanks, healers, dps, and just the whole team doing mechanics. I've been asked to improve my personal dps as off tank. Our scholar does so much dps sometimes it puts huge pressure on our main healer, who ends up essentially solo healing by the time we have fights on farm.

Having a healer be asked to increase dps seems to have been your pressure point specifically, but it doesn't mean that it's been an issue for everyone seeking to do savage content. Also, I'd say that most if not all healers that I know, who do endgame content, know that they're going in with the expectation that they'll add dps where they can .

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Sorry but thats so elitist on a game that people should be allowed to enjoy. Words like not qualified, and shouldnt be there more or less is what your saying so only good ones allowed to play a game? And everyone else gtfo? So wrong lambadafish. And whats more you dont see whats wrong with healers doing their job well not being considered qualified

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I completely agree that it's a game and people should be allowed to enjoy the game. But why is 1 person's enjoyment more important than the other 7 in that group? If a person wants to play the way they want and be "allowed" to play the game the way they want, they have the ability to form their own PF groups with their own conditions of fun. You have the power to do that. That way you can guarantee that the people who join the group will enjoy the game the same as you do.

It seems like a lot of your points focus on being "forced" or being "harassed" for doing something you don't want to do so why play with those people who have those expectations?!?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I do practically solo some savage content anyway. But I know how the world works. Im talking about one aspect of the game. If dps cant clear content its a different matter dps is absolutely necessary to clear, healer dps is not absolutely necessary. Therefore I question unecessary pressure

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In Savage the only pressure you feel is the difficulty of the content and your group's teamwork. I'm pretty certain you don't know how the entire XIV Community works, and why exactly do we drag DPS Jobs into this discussion? This is supposed to be about healers. As much as healer DPS isn't necessary, there have been times where healer DPS has helped progression in a way in the case groups were just shy of DPS Checks.

This is not unnecessary pressure, but rather people wanting their healers to DPS. Again, it's your choice at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Sorry but thats so elitist on a game that people should be allowed to enjoy. Words like not qualified, and shouldnt be there more or less is what your saying so only good ones allowed to play a game? And everyone else gtfo?

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Now that's twisting what Lambdafish said.

It's not elitist to point out that there is a higher bar for entry for a level of content that is designed to be more difficult. I play with casual groups as well as my own static. There are some people who will never enter savage. There are some who do it later when it's much easier. And there's some who want to do it when it's current, before echo, before max gear.

People clearing Alex 12S last October were functioning at a higher standard of play than groups that are only clearing just this week with 15% echo. This isn't cruel or elite, it's simply fact.

If I want to participate in optional, higher level difficulty content, I have to be able to do so. So it's important to recognize whether I want to, whether I can, and if I try, whether I'm able to accept feedback to improve my performance in order to succeed.

It is a game. And it is fun. But it's not the same as people only doing story mode, or only 24 man raids once a week, or only Alex Normal.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

In Savage the only pressure you feel is the difficulty of the content and your group's teamwork. I'm pretty certain you don't know how the entire XIV Community works, and why exactly do we drag DPS Jobs into this discussion? This is supposed to be about healers. As much as healer DPS isn't necessary, there have been times where healer DPS has helped progression in a way in the case groups were just shy of DPS Checks.

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I wasnt the one who dragged dps ino the discussion. I was replying to one. Dont or ever have disputed healer dps is optimal. Actually do it for the group. Its where is expected for the sake of it, no matter how hard it may be in the situation. Then you say I have a choice .. Not really if most groups expect it especially scholar. Do I need to know everything about how the communty works to know how the healer dps meta is and how it impacts healers? Your perception of what is difficult may be different from mine

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Now that's twisting what Lambdafish said.


It is a game. And it is fun. But it's not the same as people only doing story mode, or only 24 man raids once a week, or only Alex Normal.

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Ok but just feel you miss the point. Healer dps isnt necessary for me to be qualfied as a healer. I do that content without it. They way I took lambdafishes comment was that your not qualified to go in there if your not optimal in every way
I am allowed to go in there and clear it no matter how its done it still is. You dont need to be super skilled for savage. Otherwise I wouldnt be able to heal it. Group expectations dont really need to be that high really. Thats the way I see it. I dont think Ill bother with the special stuff for those that want it really hard. This isnt that hard except the learning of it which, I found hard but I still did it so sort of proves non dps healers can

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Ok but just feel you miss the point. Healer dps isnt necessary for me to be qualfied as a healer. I do that content without it. They way I took lambdafishes comment was that your not qualified to go in there if your not optimal in every way
I am allowed to go in there and clear it no matter how its done it still is. You dont need to be super skilled for savage. Otherwise I wouldnt be able to heal it. Group expectations dont really need to be that high really. Thats the way I see it. I dont think Ill bother with the special stuff for those that want it really hard. This isnt that hard except the learning of it which, I found hard but I still did it so sort of proves non dps healers can

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I feel like you're missing my point, too.

This is optional, endgame, higher level difficulty content. Optional. Higher level difficulty. To access it you have to willingly seek out and do all of the Alexander Normal content, and clear it, then you have to choose to unlock savage. Savage. By its very definition it is harder than anything else that has come before.

He never said you have to be optimal "in every way" and no one else did, either.

But the fact is, with a higher level of difficulty there will be some players who can do it, and some who can't. Period. Forget "optimal."

No one, no matter what job they're playing is entitled to anything. You have to earn it in one way or another, whether it's pure skill, the indulgence of your teammates or friends, or cold hard cash.

And if you think "just anyone" can do it regardless of skill level I respectfully disagree.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Sorry but thats so elitist on a game that people should be allowed to enjoy. Words like not qualified, and shouldnt be there more or less is what your saying so only good ones allowed to play a game? And everyone else gtfo? So wrong lambadafish. And whats more you dont see whats wrong with healers doing their job well not being considered qualified

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How is it elitist? Say I decide to put together a mid to hardcore static, thus necessitate certain requirements on players trialing to be apart of the group. If you fail to meet those expectations, it's not elitist for you to be dismissed. You were made fully aware of what was expected of you and couldn't handle it for whatever reason. If those kinds of groups are too stressful, you simply don't join them.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Ok but just feel you miss the point. Healer dps isnt necessary for me to be qualfied as a healer. I do that content without it. They way I took lambdafishes comment was that your not qualified to go in there if your not optimal in every way
I am allowed to go in there and clear it no matter how its done it still is. You dont need to be super skilled for savage. Otherwise I wouldnt be able to heal it. Group expectations dont really need to be that high really. Thats the way I see it. I dont think Ill bother with the special stuff for those that want it really hard. This isnt that hard except the learning of it which, I found hard but I still did it so sort of proves non dps healers can

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You are missing the point. Each static is unique; with their own individual requirements. Casual groups often won't care if you DPS whereas midcore and above will. While you are absolutely allowed into any content you fancy, you cannot dictate the group's standard unless you are the raid leader. If you join a group and are asked to DPS, you can certainly voice a preference not to, but the group is under no obligation to keep you if they want their healers DPSing. You're essentially asking the entire community to accommodate any and all preferences. That will never happen. Therefore, your options are to either accept that and perform to the expected level, join more casual focused groups or quit Savage. Nothing you say here will force the community to change it's perspective.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I feel like you're missing my point, too.



No one, no matter what job they're playing is entitled to anything. You have to earn it in one way or another, whether it's pure skill, the indulgence of your teammates or friends, or cold hard cash.

And if you think "just anyone" can do it regardless of skill level I respectfully disagree.

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Im not disagreeing with you, but in the context of healer dps which is what we are talking about I am obviousy able to do it without it. So the qualified to do it in that context doesnt really apply. I still feel apart from that if anyone works hard enough to get there they can, not just based on whether anyone else thinks they can. Groups are different anyone can have whoever they want in them true, but I wouldnt use the word non qualified to describe a non dps healer

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Im not disagreeing with you, but in the context of healer dps which is what we are talking about I am obviousy able to do it without it. So the qualified to do it in that context doesnt really apply. I still feel apart from that if anyone works hard enough to get there they can, not just based on whether anyone else thinks they can. Groups are different anyone can have whoever they want in them true, but I wouldnt use the word non qualified to describe a non dps healer

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But some groups might want you to, that is their right, if you don't like that then find a group that better fits your requirements. That is my point.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Healer dps isnt necessary for me to be qualfied as a healer. I do that content without it. They way I took lambdafishes comment was that your not qualified to go in there if your not optimal in every way

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Except that whether you can do it or not is irrelevant, because the party running savage sets the rules, and they are fully entitled to set whatever standard they like. If they want you to DPS then you should, if they struggle, have low gear and want you to heal extra, you also do that.

You called me elitist for having standards and giving people the freedom of expectation of skill in high-level content, in the same vein I should call you entitled for thinking everyone should bend to your needs rather than set their own group rules that you can easily walk away from. It's not nice, is it.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Im not disagreeing with you, but in the context of healer dps which is what we are talking about I am obviousy able to do it without it. So the qualified to do it in that context doesnt really apply. I still feel apart from that if anyone works hard enough to get there they can, not just based on whether anyone else thinks they can. Groups are different anyone can have whoever they want in them true, but I wouldnt use the word non qualified to describe a non dps healer

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So by that virtue because you are able to do it, everyone should be able to?

You yourself have argued against people expecting just because "I" can do something, I shouldn't be able to expect everyone else to do the same.

I'm trying to establish a baseline for discussion. The baseline is savage endgame content. The standard of play expected from those who can clear it is higher than that of the average player. Therefore, the higher than average player is one that generally, though not always, will add dps as well as heal if they are choosing to tackle savage content.

Or, for healers who choose to heal only, I've seen them solo heal pre-Echo. Been on a few of those clears myself and they're pretty amazing. But everyone has to perform their role perfectly to minimize stress on the healer and eliminate the need to waste mp on raises.

Just throwing it out there but there are people who main heal and don't provide any dps at all who still can't do it. Tried and failed. If it was so easy, that savage clear rate would be a lot higher across the entire player base.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

How is it elitist?



You are missing the point. Each static is unique; with their own individual requirements. Casual groups often won't care if you DPS whereas midcore and above will. While you are absolutely allowed into any content you fancy, you cannot dictate the group's standard unless you are the raid leader.

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I wont join a hardcore group now Ive been in one but didnt enjoy it. I joined cos I was asked to, and as always said I will try. Its not just the communty my feedback is aimed at its in general. And I do not expect everyone to accept all preferences. Im talking about healer dps not everything. That the force or pressure to do it is totally unecessary. Did you read what the other person said about it or have you completely overlooked what she said? She may quit game cos of it and Im feeling like that too.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Im not disagreeing with you, but in the context of healer dps which is what we are talking about I am obviousy able to do it without it. So the qualified to do it in that context doesnt really apply. I still feel apart from that if anyone works hard enough to get there they can, not just based on whether anyone else thinks they can. Groups are different anyone can have whoever they want in them true, but I wouldnt use the word non qualified to describe a non dps healer

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Did you ever manage to clear A11S or A12S btw? I know you were saying your group is taking a break or something but 15% Echo has really opened up Savage no matter how bad a group you get into in PF/DF. Even if everyone makes mistakes you should be able to heal them through everything with the extra HP and Healing power.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I wont join a hardcore group now Ive been in one but didnt enjoy it.

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Then don't! You can so easily join a casual group, a just for fun group, make your own group. You have that power and you don't need to impede on a group that doesn't suit your playstyle. Hardcore groups enjoy what they do, you not joining frees up a slot for a healer who likes the high-pressure environment. You have no right at all to enforce your playstyle on another group when you can so easily create your own group.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

So by that virtue because you are able to do it, everyone should be able to?

You yourself have argued against people expecting just because "I" can do something, I shouldn't be able to expect everyone else to do the same.


Or, for healers who choose to heal only, I've seen them solo heal pre-Echo. Been on a few of those clears myself and they're pretty amazing. But everyone has to perform their role perfectly to minimize stress on the healer and eliminate the need to waste mp on raises.

Just throwing it out there but there are people who main heal and don't provide any dps at all who still can't do it. Tried and failed. If it was so easy, that savage clear rate would be a lot higher across the entire player base.

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That is twisting my words as well , I did not say if I can anyone can, I said it proves it can be done without healer dps. That is my point nothing more

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Im talking about healer dps not everything. That the force or pressure to do it is totally unecessary. Did you read what the other person said about it or have you completely overlooked what she said? She may quit game cos of it and Im feeling like that too.

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Both of you have options. All healers have options. There are pressures in endgame raiding for all players, for both healers. So this "force" that you're so forcefully arguing against can be addressed in a variety of different ways by yourselves, the individuals, rather than expecting the overall community meta to change (which it won't).

Saying that you or anyone may quit the game isn't the catastrophic life event that it may seem to be. Sometimes that is the right choice. It's a personal decision for a personal situation.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

That is twisting my words as well , I did not say if I can anyone can, I said it proves it can be done without healer dps. That is my point nothing more

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We're going in circles again. Just because it "can" be done doesn't mean that's the way it ought to, or the way people want to. Let's take A10S for example. During the first phase of the fight with healer dps (and high raid wide dps) you can completely skip the first prey and tank swap. You push a phase, reduce healing requirements for the main healer, reduce damage to the tank, and reduce the duration of the fight overall. So if the group can do that, why wouldn't we want to?

Yes. You, personally, can clear A10S without a single global cooldown of dps as a healer.

However, that doesn't make it the baseline expectation for healing in A10S.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Did you ever manage to clear A11S or A12S btw? I know you were saying your group is taking a break or something but 15% Echo has really opened up Savage no matter how bad a group you get into in PF/DF. Even if everyone makes mistakes you should be able to heal them through everything with the extra HP and Healing power.

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No static members on holiday for last few weeks. So not attempted it with 15% echo yet our progression is to around 20%-30% without it. Its just time people dont have so much to spend days we only had once a week. Others I know are getting carried through it, atm, proud owners of an a11s clear that they didnt have to be optimal for. Just kind friends. Its fine idm how anyone does it