Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

I'm curious about this one. Isn't the tick server based, though, so all DoTs tick at the same time anyway? Or am I missing something?

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All dots you put are doing damage the same time. But not all of them crits and trigger the river of blood trait.

In our rotation, we put GCD weaponskill > Empy > weaponskill because Empyreal arrow hasn't GCD per se. Sometimes you can't use bloodletter because you have to use Iron Jaws after Empyreal arrow and you see the bloodletter proc refreshed.

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Originally Posted by rappa

All dots you put are doing damage the same time. But not all of them crits and trigger the river of blood trait.

In our rotation, we put GCD weaponskill > Empy > weaponskill because Empyreal arrow hasn't GCD per se. Sometimes you can't use bloodletter because you have to use Iron Jaws after Empyreal arrow and you see the bloodletter proc refreshed.

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And just to add on, each enemy has their own global dot tick as well, which is also why you'd see multiple refreshes in one GCD window rather than one every 3 seconds.

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Originally Posted by rappa

All dots you put are doing damage the same time. But not all of them crits and trigger the river of blood trait.

In our rotation, we put GCD weaponskill > Empy > weaponskill because Empyreal arrow hasn't GCD per se. Sometimes you can't use bloodletter because you have to use Iron Jaws after Empyreal arrow and you see the bloodletter proc refreshed.

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I'm still confused about it. If all my dots are doing damage at the same time, doesn't it mean that, regardless of the time difference in between them, the ticks will always be at the same time?

I'm trying to clarify but it's hard, I just don't see the difference in the dots being 3 seconds apart from eachother or going at the same time, since the ticks happen at the same time anyway.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

And just to add on, each enemy has their own global dot tick as well, which is also why you'd see multiple refreshes in one GCD window rather than one every 3 seconds.

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I put my dots on all three striking dummies we have in our FC house and they all ticked at the same time. Is it because it's a small sample, so I couldn't really see the difference?

#Inferiae That is the problem. All ticks are hitting at same time. And that is reason i say we lose BL procs

Rotation Example vs 1 mob

Empyreal arrow
Bloodletter
Heavy shot
windbyte
venomous bite
(dots tick) Bloodletter proc, is not used
heavy shot
Empyreal arrow
(dots tick) Bloodletter proc, is not used
Iron Jaws.
Bloodletter
Heavy shot
(dots tick) Bloodletter proc, is used.
You could use before Empyreal arrow, but delaying this weaponskill is a dps lost.
You could use after Empyreal arrow and before Iron Jaws. It's risky and depends Dots time remain, less than 4 secs is not worth it or you could lose both dots.

Against two mobs or more, it's more annoying.

I won't say that I'm a great bard, but I seem to do okay. Honestly, I gladly delay weaponskills for Bloodletter procs. Sure you're delaying a GCD/Empyreal Arrow slightly at times. And sure, it can at times be a DPS loss. But often times it is a gain or you will at least break even and save TP at the same time. The TP savings is very helpful given that a BRD with BiS skill speed will not even reach their 2nd invigorate with no downtime. Especially if Selene is present.

In your example you could have used Bloodletter both before and after Empyreal Arrow instead of leaving it unused for so long. In your example that would have been a DPS gain.

I know this sort of goes against everything people think about GCDs, but BRD is a bit unique in that way. If you're sitting on procs and seeing multiple resets before using Bloodletter you should probably consider spending those procs more quickly.

I delay Heavy shot and Straight shot because BL has more potency or similar and you don't spend TP.

The fact is, sometimes you get a free BL when you are casting and BL was up.

One example:

Empyreal arrow > sidewinder > bloodletter > heavy shot.

Edit: About the rotation i posted, i was thinking in the opener with double Empyreal where if you delay the second one, you will not get an Iron Jaws full buffed.

But the two Bloodletter procs you missed in your example are 300 potency in let's say 1 - 1.2s. That's higher potency per second than 1.5s for a 220 potency Empyreal Arrow. So if by chance using just those two procs net you one less Empyreal Arrow in an encounter it should still be a DPS gain.

Edit: saw your edit. My recommendation to fix your opener issues is to not use a double EA opener. It's too restrictive along with being a probable DPS loss compared to a more standard opener. http://pastebin.com/i0gMaCAi In a more standard opener you are able to use procs to your advantage. They do not sit there unused til your buffs fall off.

But if i count well, you don't use or you need a better connection to chain Iron Jaws with potion buff. I was in Canada being from Spain and double empyreal was necessary because latency screws up my rotation.

4s: (Quelling Strikes) (Battle Voice) (Hawk's Eye) (Blood for Blood) (Raging Strikes)
0s: (Bloodletter/Rain of Death)
2.5: Straight Shot (Dex potion) '15 sec left'
5.0: Windbite (Internal Release) '12.5 sec left'
7.5: Venomous Bite (Flaming Arrow) '10.0 sec left'
11.0: Heavy Shot (Barrage + Empyreal Arrow) '8.5 sec left'
12.5: Heavy Shot (Sidewinder) '6.0 sec left'
15.0: Heavy Shot (Bloodletter) '3.5 sec left'
17.5: Iron Jaws '1.0 sec left'

Following Ninja openers: They use Trick attack during 7-9 secs after pull. Disembowel is fine. Both buff would be active when barrage + empyreal are used.

Double Empyreal:
-4s: (Quelling Strikes) (Battle Voice) (Hawk's Eye) (Blood for Blood) (Raging Strikes)
0: Empyreal arrow
0.5s: (Bloodletter/Rain of Death)
3.0: Straight Shot (Dex potion) '15 sec left'
5.5: Windbite (Internal Release) '12.5 sec left'
8.0: Venomous Bite (Flaming Arrow) '10.0 sec left'
10.5: Heavy Shot/Bloodletter (sidewinder) '8.5 sec left'
14.0: Heavy Shot/Bloodletter > (Barrage + Empyreal Arrow) '5.5 sec left'
16.5: Iron Jaws '2.5 sec left'
18.0: (Straight shot proc) over (bloodletter) over (heavy shot)

With double Empyreal i delay 0'5s - 1s Barrage + Empyreal but i hit with a empyreal arrow buffed with Raging + hawk's eye + b4b but without 10% crit from straight shot and IR. Other fact is you are sure disembowel and Trick attack will be up.

If you do correctly Double empyreal, you don't need track dots because once you use Empyreal Arrow is followed by Iron jaws or bloodletter/Iron jaws.


I think i fixed timers and others mistakes. Both rotations are similar maximizing buffs + dots buffed + empyreal combo. Once of them use a prepull empyreal. Both could switch one bloodletter over Heavy Shot.

The combat where your rotation is better, is A4S, we start far away from the target or our Foe will pull and you have to move to range, where using bloodletter/rain of death is more useful than move and cast Empyreal.

BTW: I will test your rotation, one thing is theorycraft and other one is test by myself.

GCDs are 2.5s. Not 1.5. :x

Here. It was difficult on my phone but I took a few screenshots from this week. I could link footage or better screen shots from better pulls when I get home. But eh. This is fine.

TA timer when Barrage + EA is locked in http://i.imgur.com/O8XkyHY.jpg

Pot timer when IJ is locked in: http://i.imgur.com/Fo33iVM.jpg

Your numbers are a bit off. And based on testing your buffs are locked in .5s before the cast ends. The same time you can slide cast.

I fixed timers. i was stubborn to think 1.5 secs = recast :D

Checking the second picture, your Iron jaw is near to be casted and Potion buff is 0. A delay due connection and you will fail to apply them.

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Originally Posted by rappa

I fixed timers. i was stubborn to think 1.5 secs = recast :D

Checking the second picture, your Iron jaw is near to be casted and Potion buff is 0. A delay due connection and you will fail to apply them.

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If your latency is too high or skill speed to low you can easily switch to a 2 HS version of the same opener. My ping is normally around 25-30ms so it's not a factor in my planning.

This is also where the freedom of this opener can pay off. Depending on procs you may end up replacing a heavy shot or two with a bloodletter. This eases the timing but is not guaranteed. While not the norm I've had openers with 5 buffed Bloodletters.

My latency was 130-160 before the migration to Europe. I tested a lot of rotations and Iron jaws was ever unbuffed with potions and buffs :/.

With servers in canada, i lost one tick from both dots once i reapply with iron jaws. The situation i didn't lose a tick was when i used iron jaws after both dots went down.

I guess your rotation is more flexible once you have more gear and crit rate. I had a lot of openers without any chance of Straght shot proc or bloodletter proc.

Latency is a big problem in a job where you have castbars more short than recast and you have to use oGCD between them. Delaying weaponskills will lose damage.

BTW: I am enjoying the conversation :3 i think i saw you in Vidula and shamanarks streams. Probably one day we could talk ^_^

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

I put my dots on all three striking dummies we have in our FC house and they all ticked at the same time. Is it because it's a small sample, so I couldn't really see the difference?

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[On the "global" DoT tick and effects of IJ on BL (waste)]

I went ahead and headed over to the four striking dummies outside of Idyllshire, popped Army's Paeon, left WM off, and tested tick timings by cycling DoTs through all four while maintaining Straight Shot's crit buff to up the average tick rate.

It took a while but I eventually got 3 refreshes in a single GCD (around the 10 minute mark). That being said, the vast majority of refreshes happened around 3 seconds of each other (and, more often than seems entirely coincidental, seemingly right at almost exactly a GCD, rather than 3 seconds[?] -- this could just seem that way due to reaction time and net latency though), and the visuals show them all ticking at once, so I'm not entirely certain what's happening.

Going to test with split DoTs vs. IJed DoTs in a bit. Will edit when I'm done.
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Edit: After testing for ~12 minutes against a single target dummy, I didn't get a single Bloodletter between the 3-second tick times. As such I suspect even split DoTs are in fact ticking together. There should be no additional chance of wasting BL from using IJ (and its stacking the DoT durations/starts/ends). [<--this much certain]

My best guess is each enemy has its own 'global' (or personal, all-debuffs-together) DoT tick, rather than there being an true, single, global tick for all DoTs on the battlefield. [<--still not sure on this part]

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Originally Posted by Hontaro

What I noticed as BLM is that everything shares one tick timer. I never ever got 2 Thundercloud procs (which are btw even worse then BL procs imo) in quick succession, while I once got 4 Thundercloud procs on one single tick (from 4 different enemies).

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That was my assumption going into the test as well (for which reason I've gone so far as downloading global tick timers before for DoTs as well as mana), but I definitely was able to fire 3 consecutive Bloodletters within a single GCD, which shouldn't be possible with a true global tick unless--and this might actually be the case--some weird quirk of latency and ability queuing. I put up all my DoTs, got a tick, used it, and about 2 seconds later got another, used it, another popped as I hit it, clipping the first's animation (which, by itself, is common enough if you delay on using a Bloodletter until up against the tick timer, but that wasn't the case here) and then a third, again clipping the prior's animation. The queuing for all three was probably done within... .7 seconds?

That said... while there were a couple other time in that long test where I thought I saw two bloodletters in the same GCD, but it took the entire test just to produce that one result that pointed anywhere definitively (which may well have been some strange anomaly). If I tested for 30 minutes straight, I might have gotten some clearer evidence, but even just fifteen minutes of that felt plenty tedious...

Going to go ahead and throw out my two cents here:

I get that we're pretty much stuck with whatever we've got, and by now most of us are pretty well used to it. I myself like WM; I just think it was also a bit of a wasted opportunity to do something far less makeshift and more Bard-like. But I don't think it's a waste of breath either to discuss what we'd like to have seen in order to better understand what we'd like to see in future job evolutions.

Imo, if there were to be an addition that dramatically changes gameplay according to stance, this really should have hit around level 30 or so in the base archer skills (it would be a natural extension of the split Marksman/Elezen/Greatbow vs. Hunter/Miqo'te/Shortbow styles of archery). Nor should that one stance, which likely should be more dance-able than our current WM, be the only option giving us variance. As a Bard, I feel like this would have best come from integrating, in various ways, the songs into our combat effects. This would also allow for some of the other requested changes from A Realm Reborn such as more interesting rotations, more immediate song usability (ways around the clunky 3s cast), and more dynamic and versatile song effects (with uses not limited to caster compositions or progression content).

E.g.... change Swiftsong to Windsong, give it some in-combat use that can give us reason to zip past party members who may need a short speed boost, with particular abilities benefiting both our mobility and dps (likely... Windbite). Give it enough unique effects to alter our priorities somewhat or build a different dynamic for preparing for some incoming task (be it mobility, mass-DoTing, or quickly killing off a low-health add). Maybe even swap out our proc-shot (Bloodletter) with different songs (Flicker Shot [default], Wind Shot [Windsong], Spare Shot [Paeon], Bloodletter [Foe], etc.). Make each song start instantly but ramp up via its integration with our combat abilities. Give us more ways to sacrifice dps on demand (e.g. spend a GCD singing) for support in balance with weaving party-helpful but personal-dps-hindering songs between CDs (I personally like that aspect, though there are many other methods to throw in some extra, subtle skill-gap aspects). Make that movement around the battlefield feel a bit more purposed (without accidentally just causing a focus on stacking people in Cure III/Song_bonus-sized circles)... Make something like "going Windsong" actually a thing worth saying, and for Bards to figure out how to get the most out of their songs in more ways than just when they'd have time to cast the damn things, avoiding dmg loss during CDs, having Foe up in time, and when to drop whatever song to keep enough mana for the next time it's needed. All those things are good--maybe even great--but a bit more depth, versatility, and flexibility could make them amazing.

That being said, building all that would be quite the task, especially if future-proofing to work alongside an eventual Ranger job... Not so difficult that one would reasonably give up, slap on a cast-times-for-20/30%-bonus-damage-without-AAs ability, toss in two new rotationals and a CD and say 'job well done', but certainly a tall order.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I just think it was also a bit of a wasted opportunity to do something far less makeshift.....

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That's my census as well, on top of MCH's initial previews and making so many cuts toward the final version. They could have made WM increase weaponskill speed while reducing tp cost and GCD (making it much more faster paced), or not do the cast time tibdit and instead make wanderer's consume extra TP for more damage, while the rest of BRD's post-50 skills would help with TP management; sort of becoming similar to dork side for DRK in a sense where resource management is key.

With an entire new expansion and a new job to compete with, "disappointing" best sums up what I feel about BRD going into 3.0, and MCH compared to BRD. It's a tall order like you said, but you kinda need to push the envelope for something like...an expansion, not just for the jobs but also content in general.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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The thing that gets me most is that there rarely ever seems to be any impression that they looked over the jobs and figured "based on what people like right now about the job, or whatever the job seems to (perhaps/eventually) promise, what would feel awesome to actually play?" The improvements instead kind of just tossed another stone into the mix and then compacted the whole thing. They certain tighten the bolts on the bar-watching aspect of gameplay that has (for better, or, to some, maybe worse) aided intensity thus far, mostly by adding more CD attacks and shrinking windows and/or upping penalties on balance-able abilities (WM being the best example of the first, and BotD, Enoch good examples of both), but the 'improvements' feel very bare-bone in aim.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

is there a tl;dr version of this whole topic? since I still don't know what is actually wrong with brd atm that even requires fixes? I have seen some pretty numbers from brds and if you have have more than one caster foe's is such a nice thing.

maybe someone can give me a quick to the point summary?

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Mostly a lot of seemingly changes/additions seemingly in conflict with each other and how Bard previously felt. We went from double-weave to single-weave (except on SS proc). We're still by no means casters even now, but we move at a waltz pace where previously unhindered; until popping Dreadwyrm stance for Ruin III filler, SMN is generally more mobile than WM Bard. Our additions were relatively uninventive or fitting. We got a cast-bars-for-slight-damage-boost ability (significant only after EA and IJ), a 15s nuke, a GCD-saver, a 90s nuke, and what amounts to a pre-pull ability only usable with a Warrior (due to lack of immediacy and GCD loss). Irritations caused by latency are roughly tripled. We, too, are now victims of Firestarter hell. The adjusted WM feels like it should be slight dance-able, but (with any SS) the lock-in is longer than EA's CD. Played at under 80 ms latency, by someone who enjoys tight-windowed gameplay, it's fairly enjoyable. For those who liked the more subtle skill-gap from before, the greater responsiveness, or simply have over, say, 140 ms latency, it can be clunky and irritating.

Even those who do like it, though, can't really point at any specific part of it and say that it seems... Bard-like.

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Originally Posted by rappa

My latency was 130-160 before the migration to Europe. I tested a lot of rotations and Iron jaws was ever unbuffed with potions and buffs :/.

With servers in canada, i lost one tick from both dots once i reapply with iron jaws. The situation i didn't lose a tick was when i used iron jaws after both dots went down.

I guess your rotation is more flexible once you have more gear and crit rate. I had a lot of openers without any chance of Straght shot proc or bloodletter proc.

Latency is a big problem in a job where you have castbars more short than recast and you have to use oGCD between them. Delaying weaponskills will lose damage.

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I used to use the Double Empyreal opener, but I switched over to an opener similar to Rinchan's. It feels better for me (I play at about 75-80 ms latency). The Double Empyreal opener is pretty restrictive timing-wise and the worse thing is getting a lag spike on applying Iron Jaws. xD

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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What I noticed as BLM is that everything shares one tick timer. I never ever got 2 Thundercloud procs (which are btw even worse then BL procs imo) in quick succession, while I once got 4 Thundercloud procs on one single tick (from 4 different enemies).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The thing that gets me most is that there rarely ever seems to be any impression that they looked over the jobs and figured "based on what people like right now about the job, or whatever the job seems to (perhaps/eventually) promise, what would feel awesome to actually play?"

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I get that we're pretty much stuck with whatever we've got, and by now most of us are pretty well used to it. I myself like WM; I just think it was also a bit of a wasted opportunity to do something far less makeshift and more Bard-like

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

That's my census as well, on top of MCH's initial previews and making so many cuts toward the final version. They could have...(making it much more faster paced)

With an entire new expansion and a new job to compete with, "disappointing" best sums up what I feel about BRD going into 3.0, and MCH compared to BRD

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Loooooooooooooooooooove it <3

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

is there a tl;dr version of this whole topic? since I still don't know what is actually wrong with brd atm that even requires fixes? I have seen some pretty numbers from brds and if you have have more than one caster foe's is such a nice thing.

maybe someone can give me a quick to the point summary?

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The above in contrast to lots of number mumbo jumbo, dealwithit and gitgud for me personally is a TLDR.

FOE isnt new and brd lost (felt? subjective?) pace. Number discussions are nice but dont help anyone who decided to play brd for his pace when to achieve those numbers he has to abandon it.

I know it's less pressing than the dire clunkiness of the job or the overall awfulness of the direction they took it, but surely I'm not the only one who's also really disappointed with what WM has done to the animations? Or rather, the lack thereof.

The "casting" animation has literally one static frame, and it interrupts the actual attack animations before the arrow even gets loosed. It would have made far more sense to place the cast in the middle of the animation when the bow is drawn, but that would have required more effort to implement than literally zero.

I know it's a totally superficial thing, but the game is sold in part on its aesthetic appeal, and it's yet another way in which Bard now feels like a compromised caster class (who have much more fluid cast animations) rather than any identity of its own.

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Originally Posted by twoheadedenby

*SNIP*

The "casting" animation has literally one static frame, and it interrupts the actual attack animations before the arrow even gets loosed. It would have made far more sense to place the cast in the middle of the animation when the bow is drawn, but that would have required more effort to implement than literally zero.

*SNIP*

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The character hold their hand at the top of the quiver. When you need to move and interrupt the cast, it's more realistic to just have the character drop their arm and run without ever drawing the arrow versus having the arrow pulled and then running.

*EDIT*
Nevermind. Yours made more sense, considering the character has the arrow in hand when the Bow is drawn. So yeah, the casting SHOULD have been with the arrow pulled.

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Originally Posted by twoheadedenby

The "casting" animation has literally one static frame, and it interrupts the actual attack animations before the arrow even gets loosed. It would have made far more sense to place the cast in the middle of the animation when the bow is drawn, but that would have required more effort to implement than literally zero.

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i cant agree more , and dont feel like this problem isnt needed because animations are important too , as example look at SMN : entering Trance looks awesome, and casting deathflare booom!!!! .The change is really needed , why SE choosed that horrible animation is beyond me (Same goes for MCH casting animation and the gun attachment )

OK so I have been trying a few different classes and right now it looks like my new main is MCH and even though it is a lot more work, for some reason it looks like I am better at it than a Bard.

My MCH is currently at avg item lev of 187 and despite the fact that my Bard is at avg item lev 198 my MCH is out DPSing the Bard by 100 to 150 dps in Neverreap and The Fractal Continuum.

(I leveled a Dragoon and Ninja before the MCH and right now I am doing a Monk).

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Originally Posted by Valoris

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As a 2 year BRD main my i208 MCH does more DPS in dungeon runs than my 210 BRD, because MCH burst is much much better and bosses are pretty short in dungeons. MCH AoE is far superior as well though.
There are other factors that effect DPS. Not saying you're wrong though, you could just be better at MCH than you are at BRD. Just don't take it at face value.

I can see MCH being somewhat better for dungeons in some ways. But worse in others. If you have a good caster and a healer that does DPS then Foe can easily tip the scale as far as providing more raid DPS compared to a Bishop Hypercharge only once every two minutes.

And while MCH may have decent aoe for trash packs there is a benefit to BRD's sustained aoe in encounters like A2 savage. Keep up dots on the higher HP targets and get Raij of Death procs between nearly every GCD. Sometimes multiple resets between GCDs. It is quite good.

Both jobs are quite capable thankfully. :)

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Originally Posted by aabe

As a 2 year BRD main my i208 MCH does more DPS in dungeon runs than my 210 BRD, because MCH burst is much much better and bosses are pretty short in dungeons. MCH AoE is far superior as well though.
There are other factors that effect DPS. Not saying you're wrong though, you could just be better at MCH than you are at BRD. Just don't take it at face value.

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If you're with a Monk or Dragoon, sure. A Bard will bring more raid dps in a dungeon with a smn/nin/blm though.

Heavy Shot - The timing at which Straight Shot's icon flashes while under the effect of Straighter Shot has been adjusted.

Straight shot is now 60tp.

Yay! The only changes I want, and they actually listened.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

Heavy Shot - The timing at which Straight Shot's icon flashes while under the effect of Straighter Shot has been adjusted.

Straight shot is now 60tp.

Yay! The only changes I want, and they actually listened.

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Well needed adjustment that was way overdue. Probably still going to play MCH though, but at least this gives me the option to tolerate BRD if I swap to it for a raid.

Sigh, this should have been adjusted before. Eh, I think it's better late than never.

No wm adjustments? Not gonna play bard anyway :/

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Originally Posted by Empty-handed

Sigh, this should have been adjusted before. Eh, I think it's better late than never.

No wm adjustments? Not gonna play bard anyway :/

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What is your recommendation for WM? Honestly it's fine, minus the poor animations that come along with it. If they wanted to make it more comparable to Machinist, they could increase the proc chance of Straighter Shot and lower Straight Shot's potency by 10, otherwise Bard is fine where it is, both mechanically and dps wise.

Hell, the only thing that frustrates me about Bard is the necessity on Rain of Death for AS3. Stupid healers and their bad accuracy :(

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

What is your recommendation for WM? Honestly it's fine, minus the poor animations that come along with it. If they wanted to make it more comparable to Machinist, they could increase the proc chance of Straighter Shot and lower Straight Shot's potency by 10, otherwise Bard is fine where it is, both mechanically and dps wise.

Hell, the only thing that frustrates me about Bard is the necessity on Rain of Death for AS3. Stupid healers and their bad accuracy :(

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It's either WM or GB so they're not functionally exactly the same compared to each other. All it ends up doing is homogenizing both jobs to playing similiar when they already fill the same composition niche.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

Heavy Shot - The timing at which Straight Shot's icon flashes while under the effect of Straighter Shot has been adjusted.

Straight shot is now 60tp.

Yay! The only changes I want, and they actually listened.

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The appearance of the Straighter Shot icon was a long-needed adjustment, but reducing the cost for Straight Shot? Now that's icing on the cake. 3.1 can't come soon enough for me to give this a shot. {I'm looking forward to it!}

nothing about Bloodletter procs , weapon damage , or animations .... /sigh , oh well at least Straight shot! has received some love ....

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

weapon damage , or animations .... /sigh , oh well at least Straight shot! has received some love ....

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It is kind of weird there is only a 1 weapon damage increase from 200 to 210 vs 2 for melees and 3 for casters.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

What is your recommendation for WM? Honestly it's fine, minus the poor animations that come along with it. If they wanted to make it more comparable to Machinist, they could increase the proc chance of Straighter Shot and lower Straight Shot's potency by 10, otherwise Bard is fine where it is, both mechanically and dps wise. :(

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That is exactly the problem with Minuet, it shouldn't be comparable to machinist. They are different classes. Wanderer's Minuet should buff your songs to make BRD strategy more about weaving songs. Also, more songs obviously. Repurpose Warden's Paeon.

Well, that more-or-less cements the fact that Square Enix aren't interested in doing more than the absolute bare minimum to keep BRD vaguely playable. Full-time Healer it is, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Cirdan-Faust

That is exactly the problem with Minuet, it shouldn't be comparable to machinist. They are different classes. Wanderer's Minuet should buff your songs to make BRD strategy more about weaving songs. Also, more songs obviously. Repurpose Warden's Paeon.

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More or less this. They should be comparable in the role they fill, but not how they play. This is the case for the tanks, melee and especially the casters. There's absolutely no reason for them to make WM/GB functionally the same to each other considering that one is an entirely new job behind an expansion's worth of development other than to extremely homogenize how they play. I don't want to play a reskinned BRD with different animations, especially not when it's passed off as a new job.

Give one of them WM/GB, keep other vanilla, or even make it give different effects so they at least feel different. The novelty of an "attachment" from GB is gone when they're just gonna give it to BRD as well. But I'm digressing now. At least it's a step in the right direction in making BRD more coherent. I'd still like for them to de-homogenize their gameplay, sooner rather than later (4.0). Or at least a ranged physical job that plays like a physical job in the traditional sense (IE, having auto attacks and not cast times)

Sadly i doubt we will ever get back our 2.0 bard. I have adapted to the new play style for alex savage altho i still wish more can be done about our clunky play style. Weaving in flaming arrow is still clunky (using a macro as workard) and Wanderer’s paeon is rlly useless beyond giving it to a warr at pull. I rlly hope the ss proc adjustment helps improves things. Our mobility options r limited to bloodletter procs, strafe casting, feint, ss proc, blunt arrow and more can be done imo.

Maybe wanderer paeon can be changed into something that makes the next skill an instant cast (like swiftcast or mch quick fire iirc)? Jus another way to give us more mobility.

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Originally Posted by Cirdan-Faust

That is exactly the problem with Minuet, it shouldn't be comparable to machinist. They are different classes. Wanderer's Minuet should buff your songs to make BRD strategy more about weaving songs. Also, more songs obviously. Repurpose Warden's Paeon.

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To make it fit with the theme of a minuet, any song played while the Wanderer's Minuet is active should have its MP cost reduced to slow down MP consumption. Either that, or have it also reduce the cost of certain actions (spells during Mage's Ballad, and weaponskills during Army's Paeon). Foe Requiem's MP drain could be slowed down with the ability active. Make it so that it could only be activated when singing a song and have it deactivate when a song is no longer being sung, and that might make for an interesting change for the ability and the job. The Warden's Paean would also be better off as an instant oGCD with a 90s recast.

Although, if the current Wanderer's Minuet is changed to affect songs, I wonder how much it would affect BRD DPS? I would assume that all skills that required you to have the ability active would no longer have that requirement, and auto-attacks would return on top of having Empyreal Arrow and Iron Jaws.

Yeah if they are homogenizing the two classes anyway then WM should make songs instant cast.
Look at MCN and their turret control even with GB on. It is easily placed and commanded between the GCD and yet BRD requires 3s.