Anti-Speed Run Mechanism

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Originally Posted by Ruprect

Don't pug it then, I wont be. If you are so pro and going to be raiding you must have an all pro FC to run these with. Should go pretty fast with everyone in all Garuda HM weapons. I am sure everyone will be ok if you do not grace the DF with your presence.

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I have no intentions of pugging. Haven't pugged AK in weeks with the exception of maybe 1 person. My point is that for those that do pug this is what they will run into. The groups are going to get worse then they already are and people will be required to have certain levels of gear in order to even attempt it unless they make their own groups. No one will waste the 1+ hr in a dungeon to fail. So instead of the speed run QQ threads we will have threads asking for harsher penalties for people that leave. Oh wait those are already started, can be prepared for alot more of them.

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Originally Posted by Ariyn

I have no intentions of pugging. Haven't pugged AK in weeks with the exception of maybe 1 person. My point is that for those that do pug this is what they will run into. The groups are going to get worse then they already are and people will be required to have certain levels of gear in order to even attempt it unless they make their own groups. No one will waste the 1+ hr in a dungeon to fail. So instead of the speed run QQ threads we will have threads asking for harsher penalties for people that leave. Oh wait those are already started, can be prepared for alot more of them.

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I honestly dont get why they let you PuG endgame content. Based on the huge amount of people that cannot handle the mechanics for NM Garuda, what made SE think that people could PuG AK or HM Ifrit. I say take them out of the DF.

its not that they stopped speed runs that bothers me its how they did it....all they have to do with make each trash drop some gil or like 1 tombstone they put all the barriers they want cause people would kill the trash anyways once again SE handles it very poorly

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Originally Posted by Ruprect

I so do get the point. At the rate people were getting tomes before this even casuals would have been to end game in a month or 2 lol. Then what? I can run castrum in about 40 minutes and get 100 tokens with my FC and all of us in vendor white gear and a few crafting pieces of jewelry for materia farm. This is by far the best way to farm tomes/gil. You do not need to run AK more than 4 times a week and then you can go to castrum for fast runs. People are making far to much out of this.

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That's a much better response, before you kind of grouped everyone into the elitist category. I am posting because if I didn't, SE wouldn't know they had another upset customer. I don't complain about much so I'm not one that will complain if this goes the other way but as you see I don't support the move SE has made here. I will have to try those alternative methods once I get to 50 if SE doesn't change the way tomes are earned. I agree it's not good for even casuals to complete end game in a month or two but Yoshida said something like less than 100 players would complete The Binding Coil of Bahamut before 2.1. If that holds true, there was never a problem with players completing content too fast. We'll see what happens.

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Originally Posted by SerDakota

its not that they stopped speed runs that bothers me its how they did it....all they have to do with make each trash drop some gil or like 1 tombstone they put all the barriers they want cause people would kill the trash anyways once again SE handles it very poorly

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I agree with this, it would have been better to create incentive.

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Originally Posted by xRitzx

That's a much better response, before you kind of grouped everyone into the elitist category. I am posting because if I didn't, SE wouldn't know they had another upset customer. I don't complain about much so I'm not one that will complain either way this goes but as you see I don't support the move SE has made here. I will have to try those alternative methods once I get to 50 if SE doesn't change the way tomes are earned. I agree it's not good for even casuals to complete end game in a month or two but Yoshida said something like less than 100 players would complete The Binding Coil of Bahamut. If that holds true, there was never a problem with players completing content too fast. We'll see what happens.

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Not that everyone would complete Bahamut but they would already be working on it and getting burned out within a few months. They had to slow it down they just did it the wrong way.

Why is everyone even concerned about getting full Darklight for every class? It's not necessary by far.

All this fear about how it's going to take months and months to get every piece of Darklight in the catalog is a self-inflicted problem. You don't need full Darklight for anything. You don't need full Darklight for every class. You're better served getting a couple pieces of Darklight, then moving on to hardmodes and Binding Coil.

So now we are forced to kill useless trash mobs that offer us nothing but a repair bill. Also dealing with "elitist" tanks who can't even hold hate or avoid simple mob actions.

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Originally Posted by Ares_Nocturnal

Also dealing with "elitist" tanks who can't even hold hate or avoid simple mob actions.

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Guess the term "L2P your class " (not aimed at you Ares) springs to mind,reading the chat in my FC the tank was so used to speed runs,it has no idea how to cope with normal mobs..

and as for adding 1 tombstone per mob drop that still wouldn't stop the speed runs,going by a similar system in swtor peeps just bypassed all mobs got to boss and loot

This change is only going to bring the lack of high-end difficult raid content into more stark focus.

If I wanted a boring, grindy, simple game - I'd go to a F2P.

It was already simple. I see this patch as adding a grind which only highlights how easy/boring Castrum and AK are.

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Originally Posted by HunkyJimpjorps

You're better served getting a couple pieces of Darklight, then moving on to hardmodes and Binding Coil.

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Have you beaten HM Titan? Or any turn in coil?

I agree that you don't need every darklight piece but to go into HM titan with less then ilvl 60 gear at the worst is a mistake. As a PLD (same as you) we get hit with rockbuster, hits for ~3300 with cd's up. Without CD's you could be looking at 4k+ and it's frequent along with his other 5 abilities going off. So you having that low end gear is usually going to mean a wipe due to healers not being able to keep you and the group alive.

Coil is even worse. So saying that you only need 1-2 pieces of darklight to get into coil is just wrong. If you managed to do it then I give major props to your healers cuz they are some bad asses

thats the reason speed run cause the trash mobs give you nothing at all. And tokens arent even worth the dungeon run even if you dont speed run.

well the story cs thing is pretty broken when doing it in my campaign ppl were bitching at me to skip cs and im like y so on so forth. if ppl are in a cs there should be a mechanic that prevents anyone from continuing along with mobs not appearing or something of that nature.

thats fine but whm/sch can just quickcast and rez the smn for example

you cant report on something thats implemented in the game. and speedruns are there because the trash really gives you nothing and you'd waste your time on the Deomn wall for example doing it with randoms i have wasted say over an hour and you have a 2hr time frame to complete that dungeon. Killng all the trash on the way to bosses especially in AK would take over an hour.not counting the times you attempt the bosses Deomn Wall especially.

you cant keep players on threat list until they return cause that would in a way be game breaking.

Having mobs drop at most 300gil and some tomes would make killing trash worth it because as of right now trash mobs literally give you NOTHING!

Yea that item for Relic in WP drops to random ppl you cannot lot it which is a STUPID thing ive done WP several times and i needed the bloody grimoure for smn and guess what everytime it dropped it goes automatically to someone else which is stupid.

You can not report players for not wanting to waste there time. Most of the players from 1.0 like myself have every job at 50 but some do not. Trash mobs that give you nothing worth while for killing them will always be skipped. These players that want to speed run are not at fault at all I started doing said dungeons the beginning of the week i was told to speed run i honestly didn't get why and did not like it but then after doing it several times i understood why. Then you have the new players to which dont get why ppl wanna do speed runs whcih i sympathize with cause they are never told why or the strategy before the tank decides to just start running off. Then there are the new players who think they are the shit and ruin it for everyone else or try to play this game like say WoW or any other MMO.

I do not think you got anything that she said. Spirit bonding now compared to 1.0 is SOOOOOOOOOOO easy go to Natalan kill some wolves done spirit bond completed. Really you wanna keep looking at the textures and scenery after the 25th time in that dungeon wow you will not last in this game or any MMO for that matter when it comes to endgame.

well yes after the 10th time doing that dungeon for loot thats all your looking forward too especially when your paired up with randoms.

false your gear breaks faster dealing with trash mobs compared to speed running.

Lol i hear you

On the bright side, now I don't have to run Castrum for spiritbond anymore.

Happy they did this

... so basically SE told Legacy Players like me "screw you and go grind" and the new player base somewhat happier so they can grind the whole dungeon sure give or take some new players can handle speed runs and others can't. If I recall back in 1.0 they made people for "A Relic Reborn" Quest.. Run 17 minute Speed Runs on Aurum Vale and Cutters Cry. So if you were ok with Speed Runs 17mins back in 1.0 then why can we not speed run here in 2.0?
In all Honesty they should have just implemented a two way system on the Duty Finder Speed Run and Non-Speed Run. Anyways I don't mind talking to new player base don't mind playing with them but when they have to go start something on furoms yes the guy who made the post on anti-speed run mechanism makes older player vets not so happy.

I find it amusing that everyone is failing to see how killing speedruns actually made the problem worse. The biggest "anti-speedrun" mechanism that S-E had was the insane queue times to get into AK. Even if you have a full PT assembled, it took half an hour or more to actually reserve the instance due to the number of other parties running AK.

With the latest move, people will be spending even more time in AK and the queue times will go up accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Ruprect

Not that everyone would complete Bahamut but they would already be working on it and getting burned out within a few months. They had to slow it down they just did it the wrong way.

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you say it like there's anything to work on. get to level 50, complete half the endgame content in one day. games hard man.

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Originally Posted by HunkyJimpjorps

You don't need full Darklight for anything. You don't need full Darklight for every class.

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let's say you're right, maybe it's not required

but it is something to do with your time when you are not doing those things so that you can contribute more to the groups you join and lessen the load, and unfortunately the task of acquiring said currency for that purpose is no longer any fun at all.

why even work on endgame content if there is nothing to progress towards during the downtime?

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I love all the cry baby bitches because now it is is going to take u noobs that could not get into speed runs because u sucked

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why dont you go stand in bees aoe on demon walls and get knocked off the ledge

then tell everyone you dont know how you died

the only person you are hurting by saying stupid shit like this is yourself and the community.

But hey, here's a good one - How can someone suck at a game that is easy?

A. Make it so that trash never stops chasing.

B. Make it so trash that has been skipped is pulled to the boss when a fight is initiated.

C. Make trash drop useful items very rarely.

This snippet from the Sep 11 Patch Notes:

-Changes have been made to the behavior and mechanics of the enemies found within the “The Wanderer’s Palace” and “Amdapor Keep” dungeons to counteract instances of players running through the dungeon without engaging enemies on the way to bosses.
As advancing through dungeons without defeating enemies is not an intended strategy, we plan to continue making further changes in the future to discourage this type of behavior.


I guess that means all the people who were adamant that speed runs were a sign of elite gameplay will be sad now?

Well done SE. I'll live with the fact it's going to take some time to complete the whole game :)

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Originally Posted by LilSmalls

Well done SE. I'll live with the fact it's going to take some time to complete the whole game :)

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There's a difference between it taking time to complete the whole game because there's a lot to do, and it taking a long time to complete the whole game because of artificial timesinks that are of absolutely zero benefit to any player.

Not one person who ever sets foot in Wanderer's Palace or Amdapor Keep ever got a single thing of value from anything but treasure chests and bosses.

If SE really wanted to address speed runs in a smart way, they'd have made the trash worth killing. They didn't. They took the lazy way out. It doesn't solve the problem of lack of incentive which is the reason speed runs ever existed in the first place.

The reason people did speedruns is because there's either running a million AKs, or running a million CMs. Make some hard modes for low level dungeons or something, for Chrissakes. I understand there being only a little high-end raid content, balancing for 24 people is a hell of a thing. But not counting Wanderer's Palace (Because it's a joke.) why is there essentially one non-story dungeon at 50? Killing all the trash stops being fun when you've been to the same place so many times.

"Trash" is worth killing because you want to get to the Boss. Boss is worth killing because you want some loot. I can't get onboard with people wanting something for nothing, the very same people that call non Boss mobs "Trash" more often than not want these same mobs to drop what the bosses drop (although with more rarity). These are not time sinks they are part of the overall makeup and experience of said dungeon, the entire game itself is a time sink.

On another note, I've no sympathy for people complaining about lack of end game content. The game has just released, much more to come. I'm 50PLD and now levelling a DD and Healer Job too, plus Mining and Goldsmith, Doing Logs, Achievements, Minion Collection. The list goes on. As a hobby developer I can see why SE don't focus on people that have the time to play so much they get to Coil in 3 weeks and want more, you are in the minority and it doesn't make financial sense to accommodate you right from launch.

@ CrazyViet228
Well older player vets should find a hand towel and dry their eyes if they are not so happy, it's just too bad. SE have clearly said that speed runs are not intended strategy, more over I wasn't opposed to having a speed-run option as the mechanism to be put in place.

I do have a question for you though, when say "they have to go start something on furoms yes the guy who made the post on anti-speed run mechanism makes older player vets" I assume you are speaking for everyone that has played video games ever? How do you hold such an esteemed position?

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Originally Posted by LilSmalls

"Trash" is worth killing because you want to get to the Boss. Boss is worth killing because you want some loot. I can't get onboard with people wanting something for nothing, the very same people that call non Boss mobs "Trash" more often than not want these same mobs to drop what the bosses drop (although with more rarity). These are not time sinks they are part of the overall makeup and experience of said dungeon, the entire game itself is a time sink.

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Trash isn't worth killing to get to the boss if you're able to bypass it. Trash exists in this game at 50 solely to slow things down and run up repair bills.

It's not that people want something for nothing, it's that they don't want nothing for something (kill enemies for absolutely no reason to get to spend money fixing your gear... no thanks). Even if trash dropped enough gil to cover the costs of killing it, that'd be something.

And yes, trash is absolutely a time-sink. It's a filler activity of no value specifically designed to lengthen the duration of a dungeon. Low-level dungeons give very decent XP for killing trash, which is plenty of incentive. 50-cap dungeons obviously don't give XP, but the XP isn't replaced by anything else, so it goes from an activity with value to an activity with none.

SE had the opportunity to make the trash in 50 dungeons worthwhile and elected not to. It's a shame, really, because people are just going to keep looking for new ways to bypass the filler content to maximize the valuable content. If speed running wasn't an intended gameplay style, then they should give you a reason not to speed run, not simply try to outsmart a big group of people who don't want to be bothered with filler.

Cool Wish You Luck dude. You got what you wanted. But you could have definitely thought up something better when you did make this post. like how SE could have better handled it instead of just saying new player get treated wrongly for it, well welcome to just about any MMO my friend I even had my fair share on other MMO where I could speed run and not face a nerf or a block. In a sense I see you gotten more negative feedback on this post than anything neutral or positive. More so than not I think the issue is trash, do you cares for it? 1gil yeah doesn't cover repair bills as many say.
They may have fixed the repair bills somewhat. Item Level comes out I'm sure more will cry about it when that's added to the Duty Finder. Guess one more thing player might cry about in the future.
Oh Sorry to hear if your the one that got mistreated because they others wanted to speed run and you couldn't do it. I'll be straight with you to and honest I would have left your party in a heartbeat myself

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Originally Posted by Amas

Trash isn't worth killing to get to the boss if you're able to bypass it..

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I agree totally with your opening statement, now that they are addressing people bypassing non boss mobs then they all of a sudden become worth killing again.

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Originally Posted by CrazyViet228

You got what you wanted. But you could have definitely thought up something better when you did make this post.

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I got some of what I wanted, You'll find buried in this chain of replies a response from me that articulates a number of different ideas. I'm not going to go anywhere near as far as to say that SE implemented this simply because of the OP. My actual preference was to make non boss mobs more central to the operating of the dungeon (linking them to chest pops, doors, traps, boss difficulty etc).

Also it wasn't me that had the experiences I was talking about it was a culmination of FC feedback, forum posts and seeing it done to others. I expected when I wrote it that many people would disagree. But then just survey how many Americans think the Earth is less 4 billion years old and you will see the issues with popular opinion.

as in many MMO's they should reward to kill trash. For example, each trash gives you 1 allagan, and bosses 10. For sure that many parties would clean the full instance each time they enter :P