Jump No Longer Necessary after Patch 1.17

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Then why are you defending it's implementation? Talk about flawed logic.

Jumping right now is completely and utterly meaningless. If it someday becomes meaningful some way or the other, it can be implemented, but not before as there are more important issues to deal with that actually benefit the game right now and not "someday".

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But of course, we wouldn't want them to take time out of their busy Easter Egg and Auto-attack schedule to implement something actually fun.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Then why are you defending it's implementation? Talk about flawed logic.

Jumping right now is completely and utterly meaningless. If it someday becomes meaningful some way or the other, it can be implemented, but not before as there are more important issues to deal with that actually benefit the game right now and not "someday".

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Actually the day they do release jumping (arguably a staple update) you can expect alot of extra changes to environment to come with it. meaning they would both be added together. Not one before the other.

And as Yoshi-P has explained to us, the dev team is split up into sections. the section working on gameplay and world exploration could be working on this and wont effect all the other content also coming out.
Dont forget there isnt a release date anymore, and you're playing for free. The game is improving at its own pace, content will continue to arrive - as will new systems of play. Do not whine that jumping will "hinder the creation of other content" because it wont. it will arrive -with- other content. Whether if it arrives or not doesn't change anything with the rest of the game's progress.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

But of course, we wouldn't want them to take time out of their busy Easter Egg and Auto-attack schedule to implement something actually fun.

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Ah yes, gifthorse has finally figured out what "fun" is! Stop having fun everyone, the "fun" is all about being able to jump in a world where there are few practical situations to do so.

And for your info, I don't agree with them implementing auto-attack either. Both could be scrapped for all I care.

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the section working on gameplay and world exploration could be working on this and wont effect all the other content also coming out.

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The section working on gameplay and world exploration could, instead of developing a jumping feature, develop something else that benefits the game more.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

The section working on gameplay and world exploration could, instead of developing a jumping feature, develop something else that benefits the game more.

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I'll give you the chance now to come up with something that could add a new fun element and new content to the game, from the section working on gameplay and world exploration, something that benefits the game more, really, let's see your ideas :P

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Originally Posted by Zhyrios

I'll give you the chance now to come up with something that could add a new fun element and new content to the game, from the section working on gameplay and world exploration, something that benefits the game more, really, let's see your ideas :P

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When the current plan is to develop something that doesn't benefit the game right now at all, you can just pick anything that the "gameplay and world exploration" section could work on and it'd be superior to this one.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

When the current plan is to develop something that doesn't benefit the game right now at all, you can just pick anything that the "gameplay and world exploration" section could work on and it'd be superior to this one.

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In other words you cant come up with anything? that's what i thought.

lol.

First of all, they could make the world more lively through adding NPC's walking and performing everyday tasks in the cities, as well as make random events happen while travelling and in the hamlets, for example. Right now they "don't have enough resources" to do that, and oh gee, I wonder why that is. Gotta get the currently unnecessary feature finished asap first before tackling issues that would make the game better right now and not later.

It's not really my job to come up with these things, but if you think that when the alternative is "do something that doesn't help the game currently at all" it would be hard to think up better ideas, you either lack imagination or are oblivious to the game's current shortcomings.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

First of all, they could make the world more lively through adding NPC's walking and performing everyday tasks in the cities, as well as make random events happen while travelling and in the hamlets, for example. Right now they "don't have enough resources" to do that, and oh gee, I wonder why that is. Gotta get the currently unnecessary feature finished asap first before tackling issues that would make the game better right now and not later.

It's not really my job to come up with these things, but if you think that when the alternative is "do something that doesn't help the game currently at all" it would be hard to think up better ideas, you either lack imagination or are oblivious to the game's current shortcomings.

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sooo... jumping and adding new elements and exploration that you as a player can enjoy and have control over, isnt as important as the visual effect of npcs walking around that do nothing to add to the game but make it -look- better? wow. I am so misguided. here i thought this game's shortcomings were its lacking of content, not eye candy.

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sooo... jumping and adding new elements and exploration that you as a player can enjoy and have control over, isnt as important as the visual effect of npcs walking around that do nothing to add to the game but make it -look- better?

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Without the latter (new elements for exploration), the former (jumping) is useless. Before that is taken care of, yes, anything is better than the former.

A lively world is a world you want to explore.

It's odd that people keep talking like a jump ability WILL be added. I don't remember Yoshida-san saying that.
He said this: "I will continue to evaluate whether or not this should be implemented."

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Without the latter (new elements for exploration), the former (jumping) is useless. Before that is taken care of, yes, anything is better than the former.

A lively world is a world you want to explore.

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You're missing the key here, without the former (jumping) they wont create the latter (new elements of exploration). thats like saying, . They wont make the NPCs walk around if there's no NPCs. they have to have NPCs first. same concept.

Basically, jumping and extra content for it can be either released seperately or together. point is, you would rather have the jumping released first. because releasing content for jumping before you release jumping, is sorta. ya know. wasting time, as noone gets to enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Nabiri

It's odd that people keep talking like a jump ability WILL be added. I don't remember Yoshida-san saying that.
He said this: "I will continue to evaluate whether or not this should be implemented."

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Were you expecting something else on an official forum?

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You're missing the key here, without the former (jumping) they wont create the latter (new elements of exploration).

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Both can be worked in a parallel when the time comes.

I think that if Yoshida wasn't planning to implement jumping by now he would have told us.

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Originally Posted by Zhyrios

sooo... jumping and adding new elements and exploration that you as a player can enjoy and have control over, isnt as important as the visual effect of npcs walking around that do nothing to add to the game but make it -look- better? wow. I am so misguided. here i thought this game's shortcomings were its lacking of content, not eye candy.

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"Adding new elements" could be a ton of things other than Jumping, then again people seem to want MMOs to be action games for some reason.

again noone gives examples of what these "ton of other things" could be. you just dont want it to be jumping because you're stubborn lol, you'd rather nothing be added to the game, than settle for that something in particular xD

now for the sake of this debate. Picture that no other games exist in the world, don't compare it to any other games, dont compare it to WoW, there's no such thing as wow, or ffxi, or MMO's. other games don't exist, this is the first game in the world. ever. and we want it to be fun. what do we do to make it fun? afterall, that's what games are about. fun.

We add things that are fun. regardless of what they are. right? correct me if i'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Zhyrios

again noone gives examples of what these "ton of other things" could be. you just dont want it to be jumping because you're stubborn lol, you'd rather nothing be added to the game, than settle for that something in particular xD

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And yet the only examples of adding jump are for things that aren't present in the game, things this patch took care off (not being blocked by small ledges and shrubbery) or for the sole purpose of exploring areas that doesn't exist.

What would make the game fun?

Having events where you fight wave after wave of tough enemies in order to protect a village (basic concept of fun)
Airship Battles if there's a nation that has a fleet of airships and threatens the other captials
Ship battles as we know Limsa is a power naval force due to being pirates and all
Dungeon explorations like any good RPG would have, which is different from Platforming (i.e no need for Jumping.)
Trying to claim enemy strongholds in order to advance to the final boss's domain of an expansion pack
Allowing us to raise our own Chocobos
Allowing us to tame and control creatures

So on and so forth...plenty of things to make the game fun without having to Jump.

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again noone gives examples of what these "ton of other things" could be.

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I just did, which you now choose to ignore.

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what do we do to make it fun?

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Well, I'd make it like Demon's Souls, or Resident Evil 5, or Metal Gear Solid, or FFXII, or Batman: Arkham Asylum. Those are fun.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

I just did, which you now choose to ignore.



Well, I'd make it like Demon's Souls, or Resident Evil 5, or Metal Gear Solid, or FFXII, or Batman: Arkham Asylum. Those are fun.

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didnt i just tell you to pretend other games dont exist? xD silly

im talking directly at ffxiv, not looking at other games for ideas, or encouragement or even discouragement.

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im talking directly at ffxiv, not looking at other games for ideas, or encouragement or even discouragement.

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I'd build the foundation and then see whether jumping is needed or not. If it's not needed, I won't implement such feature, as the resources can be used better elsewhere.

Making a "fun" game is all about making the best use of the resources given to you.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

I'd build the foundation and then see whether jumping is needed or not. If it's not needed, I won't implement such feature, as the resources can be used better elsewhere.

Making a "fun" game is all about making the best use of the resources given to you.

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not true, resources can be used to make things that aren't very fun at all, ie, the surplus system.

to me, fun is more things to do, and more ways in which to do them. FOR EXAMPLE

Chocobos. now, a game where all you do is race chocobos, thats fun right? but eventually once you beat it you get bored. and then, a game where you fight monsters, thats fun too, but then, you get bored of it. A game where you jump around and adventure, pretty fun too, but once you've seen and done alot of it, gets pretty boring too.

But put them all together in an evolving world where new content is being created for each aspect all the time? That is fun. you'll always have stuff to do, and new stuff to do it with.

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to me, fun is more things to do, and more ways in which to do them.

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Making limitations doesn't mean it's a bad use of resources. Every game needs limitations in some form or the other to be considered "fun".

Put all those features together and you can only focus on each aspect for 1/3rd of the time. The more features you pile up, the less time and resources you have to develop them. Now, what's more fun: A game with excellent fighting mechanics or a game with subpar fighting, subpar chocobo racing and subpar "adventuring"? It's all about finding the balance. "More" is not always better. Most of the time it's not better.

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Originally Posted by Zhyrios

I'll give you the chance now to come up with something that could add a new fun element and new content to the game, from the section working on gameplay and world exploration, something that benefits the game more, really, let's see your ideas :P

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Areas in the world have been discovered that are not reachable by normal means. Adventurers across the land have come to rely on chocobos to explore these hidden areas. While Exploring them, thier chocobo have been enjoying the freedom exploration as well and in these areas there are places you can take your Chocobos to dig up new and exciting treasure.

Done.

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Originally Posted by Zhyrios

again noone gives examples of what these "ton of other things" could be.

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There has been plenty of threads before this one where many reasons were given to have jumping in the game.
Some people say the reasons to have jumping are gone or for future contents. We can say the same to the people who don't want jumping, your reasons are gone (I still have to do detours for many obstacles -- ridiculously small gaps or fence, for example) or is future content too.

Of course, we want them to focus on the battle content right now. But just like the world itself needs improvement and will be done after that, jumping could be added after the more important changes like new battle system. However, they need to plan now if they are to add jumping or not in order to design things properly and allow more possibilities for future content.

As someone who wants free jumping to be added in the game, I, too, find the reasons of the people opposed to it to be insufficient to not add jumping. However, I understand that some persons are opposed to it since they value different content. The developers team is composed of multiple different teams, I am sure they can work on both your favourite content and the jumping feature at the same time, without compromising the release of your favourite content since it has to be done progressively.

But in the end, what will happen is just the same as every patch they added to the game: many will be displeased because they didn't had they favourite content added at this patch.

I don't mind if jumping is not added tomorrow or next month, but knowing they will add it at some point in time if good enough. Because I know they will add it and make your favourite content ALSO compatible with jumping when it gets in the game. Almost everyone would be happy then, except the most extremists who lost their mind during this debate.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Making limitations doesn't mean it's a bad use of resources. Every game needs limitations in some form or the other to be considered "fun".

Put all those features together and you can only focus on each aspect for 1/3rd of the time. The more features you pile up, the less time and resources you have to develop them. Now, what's more fun: A game with excellent fighting mechanics or a game with subpar fighting, subpar chocobo racing and subpar "adventuring"? It's all about finding the balance. "More" is not always better. Most of the time it's not better.

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My post was in general making the point that i would infact have more fun doing more things. rather than one thing all the time, regardless of how good it is, it's still repetetive. repeating = tedious = tedious = boring does not = fun. so yes, more content, more systems, more fun. im not saying they need to make like 50 different things to do, but something to break up the tediousness of doing the same thing over and over.

Indeed they need to strike a balance between resources and things to do, the point im making is that, THAT balance, is not putting all resources into one thing, it is infact, splitting it up and covering a wider area. But dont exaggerate my words by assuming i want everything possible, i just want more to do than the far too few things we have to do now.

And the Team does know this aswell, at release we didn't have sidequests, they're gradually adding more to do outside of the original foundations of the game. dungeons/raids soon too, which is good. im looking forward to it.

In summary:

you really have to define how MUCH more will something stop being better. but atm in the game's current state, yeah, more is definetely better.

I want jump.

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Originally Posted by wingiehai

I want jump.

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Simple and to the point? lmao

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Originally Posted by Zhyrios

Simple and to the point? lmao

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Well there's not much point in trying to argue on these forums, it ends up nowhere http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ing-unbearable. But yes simple and to the point :)

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My post was in general making the point that i would infact have more fun doing more things. rather than one thing all the time, regardless of how good it is, it's still repetetive. repeating = tedious = tedious = boring does not = fun. so yes, more content, more systems, more fun.

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Just because they focus their efforts on few things that does not mean it has to be repetitive. It means they can focus on creating more and varied gameplay systems for said features and fleshing them out, so that there will be more than one way of doing them. Instead of having one repetitive system X, one repetitive system Y, Z, C that are separated from each other. Fleshing out one system well is not inferior to making lots of barebone systems.

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atm in the game's current state, yeah, more is definetely better.

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Not everything that you could consider "more" equal automatically "better". It has to make sense too. If there are no monsters, why implement a combat mechanic? If there is nothing to craft, why implement crafting mechanics? Those are a waste of time and won't make the game "better".

It's just jump anyway. I can't believe a game, and an MMO at that, won't even let you jump or climb or swim or hop... only walk and run. That's so weird.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Just because they focus their efforts on few things that does not mean it has to be repetitive. It means they can focus on creating more and varied gameplay systems for said features and fleshing them out, so that there will be more than one way of doing them. Instead of having one repetitive system X, one repetitive system Y, Z, C that are separated from each other. Fleshing out one system well is not inferior to making lots of barebone systems.



Not everything that you could consider "more" equal automatically "better". It has to make sense too. If there are no monsters, why implement a combat mechanic? If there is nothing to craft, why implement crafting mechanics? Those are a waste of time and won't make the game "better".

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you misunderstand me i guess

I'm not mindlessly requesting jump features. personally i would find that if they did implement it as just a standalone asthetic feature it would be quite a waste of time. of course things have to make sense, im not argueing that :P but everything can be given a purpose, that's up to the dev teams. dont dismiss ideas until you think of all possible ways it can be done. Dont dismiss jump for jumping's sake. give it a think, give it a purpose, and its all of a sudden not rediculous at all.

"It means they can focus on creating more and varied gameplay systems for said features and fleshing them out, so that there will be more than one way of doing them."

I like this, cause that leads to the point i'm making with jumping, it can aid in the development of new systems, "jumping" could become a new way of doing certain tasks. its just all up to the Devs how. and in the meantime we can speculate and come up with our own ideas and have fun with it.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

It's just jump anyway. I can't believe a game, and an MMO at that, won't even let you jump or climb or swim or hop... only walk and run. That's so weird.

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Yup, that's the whole point of the pro-jumping feature. :o
Being an explorer, these features (jumping, climbing, swimming, etc) would greatly add to the gaming experience. However, it seems, according to some opinions, that must come at the expense of other players' fun... mainly fighter-players from what I could see. Thing is, not everyone is a fighter-player in this vast world that is Eorzea, in fact, fighting is only 30% of my time while I'm logged in. However, I don't mean to say that being a fighter-player is bad thing, I really enjoy it when I have one by my side to protect me or help me get some materials from a vicious monster. The problem lies in attitude.

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I'm not mindlessly requesting jump features. personally i would find that if they did implement it as just a standalone asthetic feature it would be quite a waste of time. of course things have to make sense, im not argueing that :P but everything can be given a purpose, that's up to the dev teams. dont dismiss ideas until you think of all possible ways it can be done. Dont dismiss jump for jumping's sake. give it a think, give it a purpose, and its all of a sudden not rediculous at all.

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And I'm not mindlessly against jump features either. All I'm saying is that before they can give the feature a purpose, it should not be developed. This game has so many flaws or features needing polish that they don't have time to focus on the "alright I guess, but not really necessary" features.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

This game has so many flaws or features needing polish that they don't have time to focus on the "alright I guess, but not really necessary" features.

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I think Yoshi P is the one who knows best about having the time or not to do it, please let him handle the schedule (who said jumping has to come in the next update?). :o
Also, most of the things in a game are "alright I guess, but not really necessary". Just like the game itself can be considered "allright I guess, but not really necessary", it is only a game after all. It is a matter of opinion and personal choice, some people like jumping, some other prefer a different kind of content. I believe both opinions can coexist in the game with all the features we both ask for.

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I think Yoshi P is the one who knows best about having the time or not to do it, please let him handle the schedule (who said jumping has to come in the next update?).

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I hope so, bro.

in general i think anything that increases the fun players have in the game is something worth adding at this stage. we cant really say in definete accuracy that the devs do or do not have a purpose set for anything. infact they could have all these purposes for jumping set in motion, or they could not, we dont know. the best we can do is voice our opinions and give the Dev team our ideas if they're finding it hard to come up with their own. They are reading these forums afterall. so we should really be coming up with as many solutions as possible. what if they took to heart all the anti-jumping posts and did nothing in that area, or - what if they took into account all the innovative things we debate in this thread and release a truely spectacular addition to the game exploration and environment. Or they could just release jumping for jumping sake. We have our chance now to say, dont release jumping for jumpings sake, but do it with a greater purpose in mind, rather than backing out of the idea completely

Sorry for unstructured wall of text, getting tired now xD

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

before they can give the feature a purpose, it should not be developed.

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Just like Yoshida-san was saying with group crafting and that giant cake. First issue is what to do with it, before making it. If it has no purpose, it's useless.

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Originally Posted by Nabiri

Just like Yoshida-san was saying with group crafting and that giant cake. First issue is what to do with it, before making it. If it has no purpose, it's useless.

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Yep, and pro-jump reasons doesn't exist in this game as of now.

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we cant really say in definete accuracy that the devs do or do not have a purpose set for anything.

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If they do, gud. If they don't, useless feature inc.

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Just like Yoshida-san was saying with group crafting and that giant cake. First issue is what to do with it, before making it. If it has no purpose, it's useless.

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Lol exactly what I was thinking just now.

Jumping is fine, but you gotta make it matter before implementing it hastily. What if this game never picks up after all? They won't have time to develop any purpose for the feature, yet they could have fixed the whatever flaws were pulling the game down at the time of release that made it re-fail. Thinking too much in advance at this point is risky.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Yep, and pro-jump reasons doesn't exist in this game as of now.

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The idea of the debate is not to have jumping added tomorrow, but to know if jumping will be added at some point in time, even if it is in 1 year. Because, just like it was said, the future contents need to be built to allow jumping or not (in both case, it will take time to restrict access in the content or make place for jumping in it -- so, no delay in your future favourite content, most likely). So, just like group crafting and the big cake will come to the game later, can it be the same for jumping?

If the raid dungeon uses jumping to it's advantage, as well as the future zone additions, I don't mind. They probably have at least 5 regions "ready" since last year to be implemented whenever though. I'm doubtful that those have been given any thought in regards to jumping.