Removing elemental nukes from WHM

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Originally Posted by Asael

On a quick side note though, I think this topic has been derailed for the last few pages. The purpose was to simply discuss various ideas that could be used to improve or innovate the two jobs systems. I think people are focusing way too much on the elaboration of a disagreement or set of disagreements, and thus has become some sort of battleground for two differing view points. Just sayin.

Anyways, happy forum going. :)

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Thank you for pulling things back to the point of this thread and stating things I have failed to find the words to say.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Thank you for pulling things back to the point of this thread and stating things I have failed to find the words to say.

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Anytime ^^

Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't Aero and Stone have side effects that are very beneficial to WHM? Like, I remember one has a dispel effect, while the other has a DoT. They definitely do have a purpose if this is the case. That, and I think that WHM should have some nukes, so that they can DD when they don't need to heal.

Then again, I've never really used WHM (I only got to level BLM/THM to max before the end came. ): ) so maybe I am stupid and should leave.

they should make whm be able to implode like ninja back in ffxi instead of trying to HOLY FTW!

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Originally Posted by Altena

That is actually wrong.
Quake was a BLM spell in the following FF's:
-FF1
-FF3
-FF4
-FF6
-FF11
(I didn't mention 7&8 due to their spell systems, however see the trend?)

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FF1: Quake attempts to instantly kill an enemy by swallowing them into the ground.
It is not an earth elemental spell.

FF3: Quake is a Level 7 Black Magic spell that causes major Earth-elemental damage. Only the Jobs Black Mage, Magus, Sage, and Onion Knight can use this spell. It can be bought in Doga's Village and in the Invincible.
It is not exclusive to BLM, though it is black magic in FF3.

FF4: In this version it is a non-elemental spell that damages all non-flying enemies and ignores Reflect.
Non-elemental

FF6,FF7, FF8--Quake is an earth elemental spell, but is not really attributed to a "class."

FF11: The only game where Black Mage exclusively receives Quake as an earth elemental spell.

FF13: Is not a spell, but a technique (that does deal earth elemental damage) learned by pretty much every character, in different roles of the crystarium.

FF Tactics: Quake is Planar Magic.

Crystal Chronicles RoF: Quake = piling Fire, Thunder, Cure, and Clear. It inflicts stun on the enemy

Crystal Chronicles EoT: A pillar of rock erupts from beneath the enemy, sending it flying into the air and inflicting a stun effect after landing.

See the trend? :)

Googling and reading FF wiki might not be the best way to argue.

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Originally Posted by Altena

If 1 class had all the elements, the elemental affinity would be a more viable mechanic, along with some slight spell adjustments, without overhauling a functional job, to make a boring job more fun and exciting.

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If one class had all elements, then either that class would be grossly overpowered (having an advantage against almost any mob) or the bonus from using the "correct" element would have to be so minimal that it barely existed (as you would ALWAYS be using the mob's weakness).

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Originally Posted by Altena

CNJ is always going to have the "healer" tag associated with it, despite its ability to deal damage.

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This is an issue in and of itself. There will almost definitely be a DD job that comes out of conjurer at some point. The game isn't even launched yet. The job system is barely developed.

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Originally Posted by altena

This basically means that the elements associated with this class are inevitably going to be gimped, as you can't have 2 equally powerful damage spellcasters, but 1 of which can also heal.. Thus it reduces the chance of elemental affinity being viable.

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I don't follow. CNJ is a decent attacker and decent healer. WHM is a great healer and decent attacker. In both cases, DDing takes away from ability to cure, and vice-versa--you can't deal decent damage WHILE keeping a party alive in difficult content. THM is a great attacker. Both are unique, and neither is making the other useless.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Divine spells are iconic to WHM.

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Divine spells are iconic to WHM, but one could argue the same for earth, air, and water spells

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Originally Posted by Altena

Once again, the CNJ and THM lore is already butchered because of the changes in early 1.0. I don't see "stripping CNJ of their elemental affinity" when there is little to no affinity in the version we know. Removing them from the skillset would help create one. Simplifying the elementals to one class would help improve the ability to take advantage of affinity and actually make it a game mechanic

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The THM lore that we know from 1.0 is butchered; I wasn't in alpha, but I believe that will change for 2.0. I'll try to find the dev post I'm thinking of.

CNJ lore, however, never was truly butchered. Though I argued that it was at one point, the fact is we retained control of the three elements that really appeared in the Shroud (and if you're at all familiar with the lore, you'll understand why those would be the three that matter).

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Originally Posted by Altena

No, I am trying to improve the mechanic of a boring job, by slightly modifying another with a few name changes and animations . . At the moment, I only play BLM when I absolutely *have* to. I am sure a lot of people are in that boat, because it is currently (as we know) a fairly simplistic/boring job. I don't care if it is "my ideal and perfect BLM", I just care for playing a job that is both fun and engaging. Currently it is not.

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Out of context, the bulk of this segment could describe ANY job. I think you vastly overestimate how "fun" it would be to have to stalk out the wiki page of EVERY mob you encounter to determine its weakness so you could optimize your damage.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Also, you sound tense. I think you need a massage.

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No one else took you up on this offer, but... how much do you charge for a half hour? ;D

But they already have to do that (make element weakness minimal for bosses at least).

I will not (ever) be ok if WHM is the main DD for a stone or aero weak boss (and a WHM main DD holy boss should be a gimick boss imo) - BLM should be able to do more damage then a healer. If WHM can be main DD then BLM should be able to be main healer. Its why I keep supporting the zombie spell and holy spells (which are kind of elemental ambivalent) - something that WHM can turn into a higher dps by using zombie debuffs (that take time meaning overall lower, even though the numbers would look nice). Although you can just go without the zombie debuff and give an elemental ambivalent damage source like holy (even if you fight a monster with holy resistance WHM could still cure).


And I know from smaller monsters that are weak to stone that WHM will usually out damage a BLM (while the WHM wasn't DPS geared the BLM was).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

But they already have to do that (make element weakness minimal for bosses at least).

I will not (ever) be ok if WHM is the main DD for a stone or aero weak boss (and a WHM main DD holy boss should be a gimick boss imo) - BLM should be able to do more damage then a healer. If WHM can be main DD then BLM should be able to be main healer. Its why I keep supporting the zombie spell and holy spells (which are kind of elemental ambivalent) - something that WHM can turn into a higher dps by using zombie debuffs (that take time meaning overall lower, even though the numbers would look nice). Although you can just go without the zombie debuff and give an elemental ambivalent damage source like holy (even if you fight a monster with holy resistance WHM could still cure).

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You're correct. BLM is broken. Forgive me if ever I denied that. However, looking back in FF history, what BLM is missing is NOT stone, water, and air elemental spells. BLMs traditionally have dark-based spells and non-elemental damage spells, either of which would more-than-satisfy your needs.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

And I know from smaller monsters that are weak to stone that WHM will usually out damage a BLM (while the WHM wasn't DPS geared the BLM was).

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While you may be right, I can't think of any instance where a BLM didn't pull his/her own weight, even if CNJ/WHM could out-damage them.

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Originally Posted by Mychael

You're correct. BLM is broken. Forgive me if ever I denied that. However, looking back in FF history, what BLM is missing is NOT stone, water, and air elemental spells. BLMs traditionally have dark-based spells and non-elemental damage spells, either of which would more-than-satisfy your problems.


While you may be right, I can't think of any instance where a BLM didn't pull his/her own weight, even if CNJ/WHM could out-damage them.

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Hey... Dark spells !


I think you could find some solutions in that, for those bosses strong to BLM elements BLM just turns to his dark abilities.

+1 cause I forgot about dark spells lol

Edit: to the second part WHM should -never- out damage BLM except on say gimick bosses where raise kills them almost instantly (like in classic FF games)

WHM is a great healer and shouldnt also get to be a greater DD - that is very unbalanced.

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Originally Posted by Mychael

This is an issue in and of itself. There will almost definitely be a DD job that comes out of conjurer at some point. The game isn't even launched yet. The job system is barely developed.

I don't follow. CNJ is a decent attacker and decent healer. WHM is a great healer and decent attacker. In both cases, DDing takes away from ability to cure, and vice-versa--you can't deal decent damage WHILE keeping a party alive in difficult content. THM is a great attacker. Both are unique, and neither is making the other useless.

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Very much this. The job that could come from CNJ could be a Geomancer/Elementalist (Though, Elementalist would probably be confusing considering the localization of CNJ in other languages.) that would focus on using terrain magic.

The same could be said for THM. They could make another Job (Necromancer?) that gets all it's old Sacrifice and resurrection spells back.

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Originally Posted by Mychael

CNJ lore, however, never was truly butchered. Though I argued that it was at one point, the fact is we retained control of the three elements that really appeared in the Shroud (and if you're at all familiar with the lore, you'll understand why those would be the three that matter).

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I remember this faintly. There's an egg the CNJ's have, a Dragon Egg (I think.), that is associated with Wind. Their Patron Goddess, Nophica (I think.), is a goddess of Earth and plenty. So, naturally, it can be seen why those three elements were chosen. Earth for the soil, water to make the soil fertile, and wind to scatter the seeds.

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Originally Posted by Bowen

I remember this faintly. There's an egg the CNJ's have, a Dragon Egg (I think.), that is associated with Wind. Their Patron Goddess, Nophica (I think.), is a goddess of Earth and plenty. So, naturally, it can be seen why those three elements were chosen. Earth for the soil, water to make the soil fertile, and wind to scatter the seeds.

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Not to derail, but--even more simplistically, the shroud is a deep forest. It is abundant in soil, trees, streams (which keep the forest alive, and air (again life for the forest). Fire, ice, and thunder have no place in the shroud other than distruction.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Once again I will state that I never said it would totally "fix" the issue, it would just improve its current effectiveness. I never denied that the spells themselves need to be reworked / tweaked in order to allow the community to actually use elemental affinity, however splitting the spells on seperate classes means to truly take advantage of affinity you would have to pick between the "inconic" elemental caster vs. the elemental/healer hybrid. I don't deny that WHM can do some damage, but pigeon holing the job advertised as the "mage damage dealer" into only 50% of the elements isn't exactly favourable to elemental affinity.

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2 things about this:
1. Even if SE did give the current level 50 version of Black Mage ALL the Elemental Spells, you would not be happy because in order to balance the gameplay, Black Mages nukes would have to be very weak, have no enfeebling effects and would probably result in a loss of the 'Ancient Magic' Tier spells for the moment as there would be too many spells for the amount of skills/spells/abilities we can currently have.
2. You said yourself: Black Mage= 'Mage Damage Dealer' So why do they HAVE to have the Elemental Magic? Damage spells are not limited to 'elemental'.

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Originally Posted by Altena

No, I am trying to improve the mechanic of a boring job, by slightly modifying another with a few name changes and animations . . At the moment, I only play BLM when I absolutely *have* to. I am sure a lot of people are in that boat, because it is currently (as we know) a fairly simplistic/boring job. I don't care if it is "my ideal and perfect BLM", I just care for playing a job that is both fun and engaging. Currently it is not.

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The same logic could be applied to those of us asking you 'Why take these specific from CNJ/WHM to fix this 'boring' job' The reality is: 'Thunder' is just game-code. You are not shooting actual lightning bolts out your wrists killing real-life dragons. The devs could make the spell look like a pink pansy shooting out the black mages butt if they wanted to...so the 'Stone' spell or 'Aero' spell themselves will NOT fix a job you think is broken. That requires reworking the actual job and it's skillset. This can be effectively done WITHOUT stealing skills from other roles. There is no reason why BLM can't have 'Umbral Spike' etc.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Once again this thread isn't totally proposing this to be changed because realistically - it won't happen. The game is too far along to fix elemental affinity to something usable in the state that it is in. The thread was more of a discussion, to gather ideas or speculate what and how it [i]could[i] be improved.

If 1 class had all the elements, the elemental affinity would be a more viable mechanic, along with some slight spell adjustments, without overhauling a functional job, to make a boring job more fun and exciting.

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..except what you are wanting to do is exactly that overhauling a functional job, to make a boring job more fun and exciting And if that was your goal with your Original Post all along, an effective title would have been something like 'Ideas for Making BLM more exciting' or 'Can Blackmage be more than a one-trick pony in ARR?' or 'New spell options for BLM to encourage more engaged gameplay'. and not 'Hey lets take spells from that pretty mage overthere...that'll make everything better'.

Also, lets just say that SE DID change the Mages spell tree so that BLM did aquire Stone, Stonera, Aero and Aerora. What 4 Spells/abilities should Black Mage/THM give up to gain these spells? ( you'd need to give up 6 if you expect their 'Ancient' counterparts as well) Because every job/class needs to be balanced in how many abilities/spells/skills they have.

Again, we're only MIDGAME level... if you notice, yes, White Mage CAN cast 2 elemental magics...Stone and Aero. But they CANNOT cast the 'Ancient Magic' counterpart. More than likely, Black Mage will get Quake, Flood and Tornado as 'Ancient Magics' and WHM will unlock bigger heals and restorative spells once level caps are raised.

I love the fact that WHM can deal some damage, and not like it's s ton anyway. They do need to amp up holy imo. It's wasn't as strong as I thought it should have been in 1.0. That's besides the point. Having Aero, Stone, Water all make sense to me. I would hope down the road they will get the stronger elemental skills though like tornado, break etc.

Mychael's pretty much described my thoughts on all the subjects in a much better way than I have. I'm sorry that I can't get it clear enough like other people in this topic do, but I try. :(

I looked at those old skill sets, and i thought they were awesome ;D Looking at that, it would have made more sense for CNJ->BLM, but that would be to OP, since CNJ has cure etc. so you'd be a heal/nuker.
It would have been better if Jobs were separate from classes; so you get CNJ->BLM, but BLM can only use the elemental skills, but not healing/protection; which are CNJ specific.
Looking at old CNJ, i can see it becoming BLM, Geomancer, WHM.
THM could become Necromancer instead, some debuff class.

The point of Umbral BLM is interesting too.
So it would make sense for THM->BLM/Necro. and CNJ->Elementalist/WHM/GEO.

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Originally Posted by Mychael

Not to derail, but--even more simplistically, the shroud is a deep forest. It is abundant in soil, trees, streams (which keep the forest alive, and air (again life for the forest). Fire, ice, and thunder have no place in the shroud other than distruction.

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Yet there's fire, ice, lightning elementals :)
Everything in nature isn't all about creation; Destruction plays a part in nature and creation as well. You have soil erosion which give gradual nourishment to the forest. You have volcanoes that spew out large amounts of minerals and nourishment as well; even though it might destroy the forest nearby, the forest will regrow more abundantly. We wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for a star exploding.
There's creation in destrution, and destruction in creation; it's 2 sides of the same coin.

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Originally Posted by Bowen

Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't Aero and Stone have side effects that are very beneficial to WHM? Like, I remember one has a dispel effect, while the other has a DoT. They definitely do have a purpose if this is the case. That, and I think that WHM should have some nukes, so that they can DD when they don't need to heal.

Then again, I've never really used WHM (I only got to level BLM/THM to max before the end came. ): ) so maybe I am stupid and should leave.

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Ive always hated that. Dispell and some of the other debuffs need to be their own spells. Aero is ok to have its Dot (which actually makes aero do more damage than the listed potency...) but everything else that 1.0 did with spells.... not so much. Having Dots attatched to some attack spells to make them do lesser up-front damage is fine, but a dispell? I never liked it. Dispell and Dispellga please.

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Originally Posted by Bowen

Very much this. The job that could come from CNJ could be a Geomancer/Elementalist (Though, Elementalist would probably be confusing considering the localization of CNJ in other languages.) that would focus on using terrain magic.

The same could be said for THM. They could make another Job (Necromancer?) that gets all it's old Sacrifice and resurrection spells back.



I remember this faintly. There's an egg the CNJ's have, a Dragon Egg (I think.), that is associated with Wind. Their Patron Goddess, Nophica (I think.), is a goddess of Earth and plenty. So, naturally, it can be seen why those three elements were chosen. Earth for the soil, water to make the soil fertile, and wind to scatter the seeds.

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I for one never said anything about removing elemental magic from CNJ, but removing them from WHM. Simple way to do that is when you equip that soul of the white mage, you cant use those anymore and are instead given other things for attacking. That is one way they can separate the solo aspect of the class (which they wanted) from the party aspect of the job (which they wanted). All classes and jobs need to be done that way to give reason to use the class after getting the job, but there never has been a reason other than THM because it was just broken like that. Classes can also be a whole different thing for party play that way, making the number of avaliable 'classes' to play in a party actually 16 instead of 8.

Elementalist/geomancer coming off of CNJ at some time is an excellent idea, and for them, potency increases on cnj base spells and more advanced earth wind and water spells.

you people realize BLM won't be limited to thunder and fire in 2.0, right? you people realize it was a quick-fix design choice to maintain balance while overhauling the combat system and keeping things simple and effective UNTIL 2.0, right? you people realize that the devs mentioned time and time again that it was temporary and things would be more fleshed out for 2.0, right?

okay, so why does this thread keep popping up and why are people still beating the pink pulp and mist that used to be the dead horse? fuck's sake. this forum is overrun with neuroticism.

BLM has become to weak, that's the issue. It's basic a thunder mage.

It needs the elmetntal balance. WHM and the lore are light based. BLack mages use dark arts and the elements... right now both jobs are a mess, not following story line, and lore.

THe other issue is available jobs out of THM.

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Originally Posted by kazaran

BLM has become to weak, that's the issue.

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by "too weak" you mean "one of the most consistently strong and borderline-OP jobs in 1.0", right? right? is that what you meant to say?

because if you think BLM was weak, i can *absolutely assure you* either you and your friends were playing it wrong, or you live in another universe.

You're kidding right? Spamming thunder was your only joy. Except against trash mobs.

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Originally Posted by kazaran

BLM has become to weak, that's the issue. It's basic a thunder mage.

It needs the elmetntal balance. WHM and the lore are light based. BLack mages use dark arts and the elements... right now both jobs are a mess, not following story line, and lore.

THe other issue is available jobs out of THM.

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WHM only has heals, buffs and Holy. the rest is from...CNJ!
BLM only has Element skills, and sleep, convert. the rest is from THM!
The problem is that Jobs have to few skills, and rely on other classes.

oh, i get it. you're confusing difficulty/depth with strength/potential.

then just to be clear- being so easy you can headbutt your keyboard to do fair DPS doesn't mean the class is weak. they're two completely different things.

and anyway, i refer you back to my "you realize...?" post on page 14 in answer to BLM lacking depth.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

WHM only has heals, buffs and Holy. the rest is from...CNJ!
BLM only has Element skills, and sleep, convert. the rest is from THM!
The problem is that Jobs have to few skills, and rely on other classes.

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The error here is that THM is the one with fire ice and lightning magic (tho it shouldn't be that way) and BLM only really learns the ancient magic. The heals are mainly fron CNJ, and WHM only lears Regen and benediction. Jobs learning only 5 more skills was one of the major errors in 1.0. You cant majorly separate the class from the job with 5 measly skills, and no new traits. I think if the Job portion was avaliable by at a lower level, such as 20, and jobs had their own skills spells and traits that were avaliable at level up, while the class had different ones, the system would have been a lot better and the class other than THM wouldn't have become un-used and unimportant.

A THM would still have scourge, poison, and bio - basically what it use to have. if you switch to the job at level 20, some of those become unusable and instead, the first elemental spell you learn at lvl 20 becomes usable, then another one at 22 and another one at 24 - in perfect time for the lvl25 dungeon.

Or, you can stay as THM and continue to use dark spells, as well as still have the sacrifical heal spells and ressurect usable. Now THM and BLM are totally different, and one doesnt simply replace the other. They would have different traits, different spells, different playstyle. I would like to see this out of all the classes and jobs.

They can also go deeper into the classes lore and have AF and relics for them. While WHM has a WHM Relic that increases the damage of Holy and things specific to being a good healer, CNJ could have a relic that does things specific to CNJ and being a better elementalist for the 3 elements it has.

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Originally Posted by fusional

you people realize BLM won't be limited to thunder and fire in 2.0, right? you people realize it was a quick-fix design choice to maintain balance while overhauling the combat system and keeping things simple and effective UNTIL 2.0, right? you people realize that the devs mentioned time and time again that it was temporary and things would be more fleshed out for 2.0, right?

okay, so why does this thread keep popping up and why are people still beating the pink pulp and mist that used to be the dead horse? fuck's sake. this forum is overrun with neuroticism.

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No one but SE knows how black mage will play in 2.0. The only thing we have seen of black mage in 2.0 is meteor limit break, and low and behold a lightning-ish spell. They have talked about many class/job reforms such as monk, and shown tons of videos of Archer, Dragoon, and white mage. Talked about more reforms between warrior and paladin.

But they haven't even mentioned ONCE since the limit breaks anything good about black mage.

Beating it to a pulp shows the team that, we as players want more variety to our black mage/thaumaturge class than Thunder/Thundara. Fire as aoes don't even matter for trash mobs either. Any jerk with an aoe attack can take care of trash mobs with enough people. Which why sleepga is next to useless as well, there are so little chances to actually use it when everything dies in 5 seconds.

so, you're running with the assumption that the only classes/jobs that will see any work in 2.0 are the ones they've specifically commented on primarily because they want to change how the job works?

(in other words- this is a safe bet that the FUNDAMENTAL WAY BLM WORKS [ie: castz tha spellz omg] won't change in 2.0- but this doesn't mean NOTHING ABOUT THE JOB WILL CHANGE)

and in those "tons of videos" of whm/arc/lnc you, i don't know, didn't notice anything new or different?

and, you know, you're not maybe possibly forgetting that we had videos of those three classes and not others because that's what was available in alpha?

but, you know. black mage gonna get hosed omg omg. and, you know. making 247 (expletive deleted) threads about the subject is supposed to remind them NOT TO FORGET ABOUT BLM? just in case they were going to? even though they're redesigning everything else, somehow, BLM...

yeah okay. ooooookay.

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Originally Posted by kazaran

BLM has become to weak, that's the issue. It's basic a thunder mage.

It needs the elmetntal balance. WHM and the lore are light based. BLack mages use dark arts and the elements... right now both jobs are a mess, not following story line, and lore.

THe other issue is available jobs out of THM.

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It was a thunder mage in XI also whats your point?

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Originally Posted by Firon

It was a thunder mage in XI also whats your point?

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nevermind the fact that you bought like 200 spells you never ever used- the point is... you had them! just in case! and that makes all the difference!

You know what I think would be great for all classes and jobs, okay we know that at some stage after the launch of ARR we'll be having a cap raise, so, for each class and job make every skill learn't after lvl 50 class exclusive and job exclusive, meaning that for say Cnj and Whm, Cnj will be able to use all of it's skills up to 50 and past 50, whilst Whm could only use Cnj's skills up to lvl 50, from that point on Whm could get more of it's own exclusive abilities and with there being no new Cnj skills to apply there'd be room for Whm's new moves.

My grand idea would be to have Cnj from lvl 50 onwards learn it's own exclusive skills whereby only Cnj can equip them, whilst Whm would continue evolving it's own skillset. This idea would leave room for the exclusive abilities, allow each job and it's associated class to grow their own personality so to speak and become much more diverse than Whm just being an extension of Cnj.

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Originally Posted by Antonius2004

You know what I think would be great for all classes and jobs, okay we know that at some stage after the launch of ARR we'll be having a cap raise, so, for each class and job make every skill learn't after lvl 50 class exclusive and job exclusive, meaning that for say Cnj and Whm, Cnj will be able to use all of it's skills up to 50 and past 50, whilst Whm could only use Cnj's skills up to lvl 50, from that point on Whm could get more of it's own exclusive abilities and with there being no new Cnj skills to apply there'd be room for Whm's new moves.

My grand idea would be to have Cnj from lvl 50 onwards learn it's own exclusive skills whereby only Cnj can equip them, whilst Whm would continue evolving it's own skillset. This idea would leave room for the exclusive abilities, allow each job and it's associated class to grow their own personality so to speak and become much more diverse than Whm just being an extension of Cnj.

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What would be better is if they went back further, to like..... lvl 20 (I said this already)

Since this thread has moved so fast I'm reposting what I said several pages back for good measure:

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WHM has the spells is has for two main reasons:
1)Increased flexibility so as to not be helpless in solo play
2)Ability to defend oneself to some extent in PvP

Removing these spells would be detremental. I don't really give a rats behind if any WHM in any other game learned the spells or not, or what spells WHM "usually" learns. Let's just squelch developer creativity to match one player's vision!

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I think these points are solidified by the Cleric Stance ability, giving you the ability to pull out your damage spells if you really need them, or maximize your healing for when that's your primary role.

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Originally Posted by Antonius2004

You know what I think would be great for all classes and jobs, okay we know that at some stage after the launch of ARR we'll be having a cap raise, so, for each class and job make every skill learn't after lvl 50 class exclusive and job exclusive, meaning that for say Cnj and Whm, Cnj will be able to use all of it's skills up to 50 and past 50, whilst Whm could only use Cnj's skills up to lvl 50, from that point on Whm could get more of it's own exclusive abilities and with there being no new Cnj skills to apply there'd be room for Whm's new moves.

My grand idea would be to have Cnj from lvl 50 onwards learn it's own exclusive skills whereby only Cnj can equip them, whilst Whm would continue evolving it's own skillset. This idea would leave room for the exclusive abilities, allow each job and it's associated class to grow their own personality so to speak and become much more diverse than Whm just being an extension of Cnj.

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or WHM should be its own class, with its own personality, and traits, to begin with :)
It shouldn't take to lv75 or whatever, for a job to start being independent, and have a good skill set selection.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Since this thread has moved so fast I'm reposting what I said several pages back for good measure:



I think these points are solidified by the Cleric Stance ability, giving you the ability to pull out your damage spells if you really need them, or maximize your healing for when that's your primary role.

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All that does is bring up yet another balance flaw.... WHM shouldn't be able abilities to increase their Attack M potency at all. That is just another ability you shouldnt be able to use when you equip the sould of the WHM. If WHM wants to do some damage, it should unequip soul of the WHM and become a CNJ to get its Attack M Potency.

Of course people would not be ok with BLM being able to heal, and having an ability called Sorcerous stance, which increases Healing M potency at the cost of attack M Potency :/. You make it seem like all this anti-remove elemental spells crying is to be able to Heal and DD at the the same time. Broken is broken.

How unbalanced people seem to want this game to be. I hope that ability is erased in ARR or fixed to be WHM unusable.

Eh people seemed to derail off the point once again so I gave up for a while there.

Alhanelem: My original suggestion wasn't to remove WHM's ability to be offensive, but to simply open up the spectrum of elemental affinity by giving WHM more consistent spells (that have low resistance), and giving BLM the full elemental wheel, to be able to take advantage of elemental weaknesses.

So a sideways trade for WHM, but an upgrade for BLM & the elemental affinity that is currently barely existent..

However this topic keeps going off on a strange & twisted tangent so I've pretty much given up on the thread.
Have fun chasing each other's tail !

IF you played BLM as a thunder mage in XI, you played poorly and wrong. There are many isntances lightning based spells did no good, and you need to know your element tree, how to cast one element first to lower the mobs resistance to the next, to increase damage. There are many times Fire was stronger, and others where wind based were.

WHM is light based, BLM is element based. IT isn't balanced right now. THey awknowledged that, and hopefully will address it. BLM are pure DD, as as such, need the ability to control high damage, and elements against specific mobs (since that is being introduced again).

WHM shouldn't be acting like a scholar class. Even tho a weak form. IT should have light based, with a couple potent light based spells tossed in.

In other words... you don't want WHM to be able to solo like all the other classes can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lady

In other words... you don't want WHM to be able to solo like all the other classes can.

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WHM would be able to solo just fine with light based attacks. I dont remember having an issue killing things with scourge and banish back in the day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lady

In other words... you don't want WHM to be able to solo like all the other classes can.

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In other words people should read posts, instead of hitting the reply button straight after reading the subject line.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altena

In other words people should read posts, instead of hitting the reply button straight after reading the subject line.

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wow... just wow... little bit grumpy this morning?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lady

wow... just wow... little bit grumpy this morning?

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Nope, I'm peachy :)

But my statement still stands.

so, remove elemental nukes that fall in line with WHM lore in FFXIV because WHM doesn't have them in other FF titles with different lore.

oooooookay

i'm starting to see a recurring theme of stalwart bias in these threads

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altena

Nope, I'm peachy :)

But my statement still stands.

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Well it was rude...

Stating a whm could solo with Banish is ridiculous. But again, I think this is another situation where someone wants FFXIV to be FFXI-2