SE Please implement a Chonoscroll/PLEX system in FFXIV: ARR

Totally against it for the reasons mentioned above.
It will only give gil more "power" and make people more fanatic about it.
Sure, the real money was paid by someone else, but there will be people playing free because of it.

I can afford to sell my wares cheap or simply give them away (loss of gil profit on my side). If this system is introduced, every time I'll be doing that, I'll be effectively granting free time to another player. I can't do that.
I'm giving away things, incurring losses of gil profit because I want to help a player knowing that everything is sealed in the game, for entertainment.
The moment it stops being the case and game time can be bought with gil, I'll be put at a disadvantage while pushing up that person to be able to play for free. Heck, I'm not rich in real life. I would like to play for free too! So, I'd increase my prices, stop giving away stuff and try to charge everyone and anyone for services in-game whenever possible. I might even become irritated when I'll be missing gil near the end of my subscription. FFXIV won't be a game for me anymore then and I'll simply end up quitting (and sell my account, why not).

That's not what I want. I want FFXIV to remain an occasion of entertainment for me and remain the generous player I am now.

So, no.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

TERA is dead in europe because frogster handled it terribly. It has nothing to do with Chronoscrolls, even just because, as a matter of simple fact, chronoscrolls are only available on US tera, which is alive and well. They're not available in Europe at all.



Guess what? Helping to get people to play and stay is exactly the primary purpose and effect of this system.



Personal taste is a tad weak as an economy-related argument. Telling that something is "bad" or "unfair" doesn't make it so.

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Like i said in about two posts, the reason why i'm against this isn't economical related. If you read my first post, you'll clearly see my reason.

Another reason why i disagree is that this system would devalue hard to get in-game items, by allowing people who dont put the effort in to be able to get them.

I like using in-game examples so here's another.

The luminary achievement items.
When I'm walking down uldah and i see someone crafting with a luminary item, at first i go like "whoa"

But then i go
"pffft.. 50% chance its some botter who cheated his way into it."

but

WHen I'm mining at halatali and i see someone walk by with a luminary gathering tool (which you can't bot for), I'm like

" /bow "

Point being. Introducing or allowing systems that could ruin the even playing field of everyones chances at getting things they want shouldn't be allowed.

If the system is implemented and monitored correctly there won't be any way of exploiting it.

As Abriael stated earlier:

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Originally Posted by Abriael

EVE Online is a truly player-driven economy where exploit is part of the sandbox system and where people infiltrate corporations for years in order to spy, steal their assets or destroy them.

The fact that the PLEX system isn't exploited in that kind of environment is plenty insurance that it could be safely used here.

I'm sorry (and I don't mean it as a positive thing anyway, it's one of the reasons why I hate part of the EVE community), but the FF playerbase is made of harmless infants in comparison, exploit potential-wise.

We don't have Goonswarm here, thank goodness. If a large number of them were to move here for some reason, they'd own the economy in a month.

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They were, and still are, unable to find a way to exploit this system. If they can't find a way, the FFXI/XIV-playerbase won't be able to find one, aswell. You may not like the idea of Abriael, but he sure knows what he is talking about.

I spent my 2,5 years in EvE with Pandemic Legion, well known pioneers in the field of exploitation, and i dislike the game for the same reason he does: The average EvE-player's mindset is destructive and agressive.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

In TERA Chronoscrolls have completely destroyed RMT. In EVE it didn't, but it still serves as a rather large obstacle, in fact RMT is a lot less widespread in EVE than in any other MMO (besides TERA).

Economy isn't mumbo jumbo, it has rules.

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It took me less than one minute to find 35k gold for sale on tera, as well as chronoscrolls for sale less than the original purchase price. This shows that RMT is alive and well and profiting off of chronoscrolls through recapture. Adding this sort of system might be convenient for some players, but i would much rather just see us be able to trade Crysta to our friends if they happen to be behind one month (except that would lead to linkshells forcing members to pay for certain other members).

Economics is indeed not mumbo jumbo, unfortunately it seems that you are a bit naive as to how an economy actually functions. Wealth creation is not a zero sum equation, even in this game.

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Originally Posted by Huginn

It took me less than one minute to find 35k gold for sale on tera, as well as chronoscrolls for sale less than the original purchase price. This shows that RMT is alive and well and profiting off of chronoscrolls through recapture.

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In what way does an "offer" show you how well gold and scrolls are selling? How do you know if the person buying or selling won't be banned for RMT? EvE, as well as TERA, actively ban ppl who spend real money on any ingame-item outside of the game's boundaries or via 3rd parties.

Most players involved are afraid of losing their account due to a EULA violation anyway. Those who take the risk may get away with it once, twice or trice but they'll never be safe buying from 3rd parties.

The problem that is RMT won't disappear by itself. This way SE profits from it because the good used for such transactions is limited in supply. Also the amount asked from RMTers is hardcapped due to the fact that SE is "RMTing" aswell, which makes it less profitable.

sorry for bad language, not a native speaker.

From the perspective of the player who would buy the scroll, it can make the game effectively F2P (provided they spend the gil to keep their subscription up)

On the surface, it seems like a great alternative way to generate revenue and increase playerbase in an MMO game. It allow gamers who have more time than money to actually play the game. -- I'm sure we each know of a person or two in this situation.

Not only that, but supply and demand will definitely keep the gil transfers in check. (ie, a player might put $5,000 into *Crysta* for trade, but flooding the market would drop the gil value, and he might end up getting no more than 10gil per $1 invested)

I'm sure SE would do some serious analysis of the benefits vs drawbacks before they implemented something like this, but I from what I've seen, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it.

It really seems like the best of all worlds~

I have read through the first some odd pages of this thread, so I have to apologize in advance if this has been raised already. But, I have to get to work soon and I'm dying to ask the question below.

I have played TERA and other MMORPGs myself, and I have seen the PLEX system in TERA. I have not played any other game which had a PLEX system, so I will just use TERA here as an example since it's been raised so often. I think it is much easier to farm gold in TERA than it is to farm gil in FFXIV. Because most of the top-level gear in FFXIV is untradable and only obtained through instances such as primals and raids, the rate at which one can earn gil in FFXIV is different to that of TERA. I remember just mindlessly killing anything around my level for a few hours and I would have some gold I can spend in TERA, but in FFXIV you are limited to ways of making fast money. Whether you choose to gather, meld, sell materia or farm using DoW/M, I still think the two games are hard to compare because of the vastly different ways you have to go about making money in them. Actually, I would argue even further that it is hard to compare FFXIV to most other MMOs I've played. In most games, monsters drop gear/money directly that you can sell or pocket for money. In FFXIV, you have to level DoL, DoH or at least a job you can take to spiritbond to gain cash.

I believe SE has already said that materia will be changing in ARR. Given that materia is one of the largest source of income presently, I expect there will be lots of changes to the economy in ARR. There are a lot of questions that one cannot answer for at the moment as far as a PLEX system goes. How do you price these PLEX items? If you price them too high, veterans will benefit more than others. If you price them too low, you are likely to cause a disturbance within the economy. What is "just right?" Given that FFXIV is a complex game, and likely to become even more complex, you don't simply sit there and kill any monster to make money like you do in other MMOs. While everyone does have the freedom to take up crafting and gathering, not everyone has the time to do this. Yet, without a gathering or a few crafting jobs, it is really difficult to make money. You can spiritbond but we don't know how materia will handle themselves in ARR. If you choose to ignore DoL/DoH, then you have to farm monsters for crafting materials to sell. You will have to compete for these camps in ARR, and I imagine on a much larger scale than you have to do now.

Are we then splitting the game into those with money can just sit and relax while watching their bank grow, but those without have to farm and compete? We are creating very different experiences, and I don't think that is how a good MMO should be. There are a lot of MMOs like that thanks to a pay-to-win system (cash shop) or whatever other form of real-money system in place, and they phase out overtime. They have no lasting appeal because of the ability to pay to win.

I like the idea but I think it is premature to assume it will work out well in FFXIV. FFXIV is a unique MMO where many aspects doesn't follow traditional MMO roots. I'd hate to wake up one day and find that a Final Fantasy game has been infected with a cash shop or cash shop-alike system. PLEX is a cool concept, but maybe it is more the more traditional MMO setting where anyone can make a feasible income without having to commit to crafting/gathering. The way it is right now, I believe a PLEX system will allow those with crafting and gathering jobs to completely dominate the market, because they have the ability to make a large sum of gil very easily. While it is fair in the way that everyone can level these jobs, not everyone has the time to do so and I believe the economy will not be balanced. Imagine crafters buying out every chronoscroll on the market and just re-selling them for profit. What's there to stop them since you have to allow these scrolls to be tradable?

It would certainly benefit me as I have nearly all DoL/DoH maxed, but I think it would cause a lot of newer players to turn away to other games, and since I love FFXIV, I would rather just not have a PLEX, at least for a long while.

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Originally Posted by Applesnap

It may work well for other games, but it won't work well in FFXIV for many reasons. One is, SE need the funds from the subscriptions at the game's launch to float happily and be able to pay costs. After such a terrible start with v1, I don't know how anyone can not realise the significant importance of this fact. They lost a lot of money and need to recoup costs, get subscription numbers up and drum up interest for new players. You might argue they'd get the funds eventually, but until all the transactions are sorted out ... the money technically doesn't exist. "Free" subscription fees certainly don't help here either.

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Huh? you're not making sense here. The PLEX system does not REPLACE subs, it exists in tandem WITH subs. PLEX doesn't create "free" subscriptions that the devs have to deal with, it is actually exactly the reverse - the PLEX system gives the dev money for subscriptions that doesn't even exist yet, as a PLEX is in effect a promissory note guaranteeing future service.

This right here tells me you actually have no idea how the system functions even on a basic level.

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Originally Posted by Applesnap

After seeing the debacle with Atomos gil-hoarding and selling what is effectively a win on certain fights (Garuda, Rivenroad - Hard), I have no desire to see these people earn even more gil and certainly not real-life money.

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Huh? The PLEX system does NOT allow conversion of gil into RL money, so how will those players earn RL money through the PLEX system?

Oh right, they can't :rolleyes:

Again, you show a complete lack of understanding of the system.

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Originally Posted by Applesnap

You've all seen how an over-saturation of gil raises prices in general, because sellers start to get greedy and the rich are too rich to care.

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Except a PLEX system doesn't saturate gil, as it doesn't create a single gil - yes, the PLEX system injects less currency into the in-game economy than if you go out and killed a lv.10 human mob.

I'd drop the line about you having no clue about the system here, but it's starting to get repetitive.

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Originally Posted by Applesnap

we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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Of course, except one side has logical reasoning, while the other side is doing nothing more than "LALALALALA I can't hear you lolololol"

Not saying FF14 will or even should use the PLEX system, but if you're going to debate the issue, at least understand what you're debating against.

My apologies, the reference i made to trading crysta was not meant to be for RMT. I realize it will not be permitted because it could encourage RMT. I guess the real solution for this is having ultimate pay let you use one credit card for more than one account or allow you to buy crysta for someone else without kicking it back incessantly and claiming that you can call customer service who ultimately is unable to help you at all. I only meant crysta trade for things such as helping a friend who cant pay for a month.

Real world money for in game (non U/U)items/money destroys a game. It really does not matter if the company who owns the game runs the trade or not. It destroys a level playing field. in XI, if you wanted a scorpion harness or peaock charm circa 2006, you would either need to spend $20 real life money or farm and craft and sell rare items for months to gather up the 40million gil (unless you were one of the few obtaining the items or in a good HNMLS which would make you the top 3% of players for gil/item generation) So how is it fair to let someone pay real life money to circumvent playing the game normally in order to have what is generally unobtainable to the rest of the players?

What would happen if best korea were able to use the souls of its citizens to get resources from the Æther, making it able to destroy all other nations on the earth? in effect, this is what happens when you allow RMT. RMT means real money trading, it is not explusive to illegal RMT endeavors (all of which are currently illicit in this game, even though they are permitted in some other games.)

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

Of course, except one side has logical reasoning, while the other side is doing nothing more than "LALALALALA I can't hear you lolololol"

Not saying FF14 will or even should use the PLEX system, but if you're going to debate the issue, at least understand what you're debating against.

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THe opposing side isn't lalala'ing. We do know what were debating against nd if you read thru this you'd see the many reasons that have been brought up.

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Originally Posted by Yoona

Imagine crafters buying out every chronoscroll on the market and just re-selling them for profit. What's there to stop them since you have to allow these scrolls to be tradable?

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Irrelevant. What's there to stop the crafters from buying out EVERYTHING on the market and resell them for profit RIGHT NOW? Chronoscroll/PLEX isn't something unique in this regard, this is something that can be done with any and every item.

To answer your question though, what's there to stop them is the exact same thing that stops the rich from doing so in other games that employs this system - supply and demand.

People are not forced to buy Chronoscroll/PLEX to keep their accounts alive, if the market on those items are driven up too high, then less and less people will be willing to fork over the money to purchase them. For example, Eve player A is paying 400mil per month for a PLEX to fund a pvp alt, but if the price of the PLEX rises to 600mil, he will either cancel that account, or switch it back on traditional sub. This happens all the time (I've done this multiple times throughout my Eve years).

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Originally Posted by debola

THe opposing side isn't lalala'ing. We do know what were debating against nd if you read thru this you'd see the many reasons that have been brought up.

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Most of the arguments I've seen are against RMT/F2P cash shops/what people THINK the PLEX system is.

I've yet to see someone debating the pros/cons of that system who actually understands what that system is and what it actually does in practice. Though I have to admit I haven't read every single posts in this thread, but that's my impression from the pages that I have read.

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Originally Posted by Huginn

Real world money for in game (non U/U)items/money destroys a game. It really does not matter if the company who owns the game runs the trade or not. It destroys a level playing field. in XI, if you wanted a scorpion harness or peaock charm circa 2006, you would either need to spend $20 real life money or farm and craft and sell rare items for months to gather up the 40million gil (unless you were one of the few obtaining the items or in a good HNMLS which would make you the top 3% of players for gil/item generation) So how is it fair to let someone pay real life money to circumvent playing the game normally in order to have what is generally unobtainable to the rest of the players?

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Is Eve Online destroyed? Sweeping statements are bad mkay?

Whether a game is suitable for a PLEX/Chronoscroll system is largely dependent on the game's design. In Eve, in-game currency is even more relevant than in FF14, as it is used for everything - there is no U/U equivalent in Eve, all "gears" (ships/equip etc.) can be bought and traded, even the "best". Yet the doomsday scenario you described doesn't happen in Eve, why?

It's because there are a number of game design elements/dynamics that largely negates the issues that you worry about. Despite being able to acquire practically whatever in game item you desire provided you have enough money, actually having these items doesn't magically make you better. Player A can sell a bunch of PLEX and buy himself a 20bil isk faction battleship loaded with the best officer gear, all he's likely to get out of it is a lol-kill mail when he gets suicide ganked in highsec or got jumped somewhere in low/null space. On top of that, the massive scale of Eve's single-shard environment relative to your typical multi-shard MMO (350-400k ppl vs. 5-6k) means any meaningful manipulation through the use of PLEX is outside the realm of possibility for just about anyone who's sane.

Would FF14's system be able to accommodate a PLEX-like system? I would have to say that at least as far as 1.xx goes, it would be a no. Whether 2.0 would be suitable however remains to be seen.

Realistically speaking however, I doubt SE will ever go for this type of system.

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

Not saying FF14 will or even should use the PLEX system, but if you're going to debate the issue, at least understand what you're debating against.

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Sure, Aenarion. As long as you understand that when someone opposes your idea, you respect their opinions and don't argue each and every one of them down.

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Originally Posted by Huginn

Real world money for in game (non U/U)items/money destroys a game.

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You exchange real world money for crysta. You exchange crysta for gametime or for the amount of gil another player is willing to pay for the amount you're offering. You receive either gametime or gil. The player who bought your stock receives your crysta. Why would he buy crysta? Because he wants gametime. He exchanges your crysta for gametime. The crysta are gone, the gil changed hands. End of story.

Now, when exactly was the game destroyed in your opinion? The gil were redistributed, not generated. Why do you expect whoever exchanges crysta for gil to be a bad person? Maybe he wants to help out a friend who's short on money or recover from an absence?

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Originally Posted by Huginn

It really does not matter if the company who owns the game runs the trade or not. It destroys a level playing field. in XI, if you wanted a scorpion harness or peaock charm circa 2006, you would either need to spend $20 real life money or farm and craft and sell rare items for months to gather up the 40million gil (unless you were one of the few obtaining the items or in a good HNMLS which would make you the top 3% of players for gil/item generation) So how is it fair to let someone pay real life money to circumvent playing the game normally in order to have what is generally unobtainable to the rest of the players?

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I don't know what's fair in your opinion. What i do know is that RMT run, regulated and hardcapped by SE will earn money for them. Money they so desperatley need to keep going. Also, the guy buying his gear still is a bad player bcause he's lacking experience, otherwise he would have access to enough resouces and jobs to craft it himself.

People were, are and will always be RMTing.
RMTing is like a Drug.
Don't ban it.
Legalise it, regulate it, tax it.

Also: Damn, 3 month of work ingame or 20$ worth of RL currency? Sounds like a really fucked up economy.

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Originally Posted by Huginn

What would happen if best korea were able to use the souls of its citizens to get resources from the Æther, making it able to destroy all other nations on the earth? in effect, this is what happens when you allow RMT. RMT means real money trading, it is not explusive to illegal RMT endeavors (all of which are currently illicit in this game, even though they are permitted in some other games.)

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I know the meaning of the term RMT, thanks for reminding me though.

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Originally Posted by Applesnap

Sure, Aenarion. As long as you understand that when someone opposes your idea, you respect their opinions and don't argue each and every one of them down.

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I respect your right to your own opinions, as everyone is entitled to their own.

However, you're not entitled to your own fact, and I have every right to tear down the posts that are factually incorrect.

You sound a lot more like demanding this to be implemented ..nothing to do with the "please" in the thread title lol so..what if SE doesn't feel like it? stop already you are not gonna gain anything by getting aggressive with the big majority that opposes your idea

Chronoscrolls/PLEX do favor people with a disposable income, but it also makes it so people without a disposable income can theoretically play for "free/gil". It has worked in other games... perhaps a limit on how many Sub Replacement Items one can buy per 30 days... eliminate normal subs, cap it at 4, so Buyer uses one for himself and has 3 to sell.

It's kinda like speculating on Gil Futures, $9.99USD = ?? Gil.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

You sound a lot more like demanding this to be implemented ..nothing to do with the "please" in the thread title lol so..what if SE doesn't feel like it? stop already you are not gonna gain anything by getting aggressive with the big majority that opposes your idea

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You're mixing things up, Aenarion isn't the OP of this thread.
Also, you're keeping track of the people and their opinions in this thread? Great, what's the score then?

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Originally Posted by Halvaard_Vidan

Chronoscrolls/PLEX do favor people with a disposable income, but it also makes it so people without a disposable income can theoretically play for "free/gil". It has worked in other games... perhaps a limit on how many Sub Replacement Items one can buy per 30 days... eliminate normal subs, cap it at 4, so Buyer uses one for himself and has 3 to sell.

It's kinda like speculating on Gil Futures, $9.99USD = ?? Gil.

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The big thing is, you cannot make IRL money with PLEX. In the case of PLEX the only money going into the system is for an in game item. You can't turn around and sell your PLEX for $15 (at least, not legally) The real money is given to the game company and elminates middle-man RMTs.

It turns the completely negative RMT into a monitored/protected transaction. (Square Enix isn't going to sell your gear for gil)

Edit: This is a great way of looking at it.

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People were, are and will always be RMTing.
RMTing is like a Drug.
Don't ban it.
Legalise it, regulate it, tax it.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

You sound a lot more like demanding this to be implemented ..nothing to do with the "please" in the thread title lol so..what if SE doesn't feel like it? stop already you are not gonna gain anything by getting aggressive with the big majority that opposes your idea

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Reading comprehension fail/10

I also like how I'm apparently demanding for this to be implemented in game despite having said multiple times that I don't think this fits FF14 or that it'll ever be implemented by SE. :rolleyes:

Are some of my posts aggressive? hell yes, because I was ripping apart posts that contained factually incorrect information, just like this post of yours.

Interesting thread. 2 questions for those in favor:

1. Wouldn't this allow RMT to remove their own subscription costs, since they will clearly have gil to spend on these tokens? While I can see decreased demand for RMT gil as a function of this system, I am guessing RMT has decreased costs as well.

2. What's to stop RMT from cornering the market in these tokens? Can they not be resold? I'd think that RMT, with unlimited (hypothetically) gil, would almost be forced to buy all tokens and then resell them at the same rate they sell directly. Is that observed in other games?

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Originally Posted by gahoo

Interesting thread. 2 questions for those in favor:

1. Wouldn't this allow RMT to remove their own subscription costs, since they will clearly have gil to spend on these tokens? While I can see decreased demand for RMT gil as a function of this system, I am guessing RMT has decreased costs as well.

2. What's to stop RMT from cornering the market in these tokens? Can they not be resold? I'd think that RMT, with unlimited (hypothetically) gil, would almost be forced to buy all tokens and then resell them at the same rate they sell directly. Is that observed in other games?

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RMT's could effectively remove their own subscription costs, however in order to make money (dollars) they would still have to sell gil itself. In the case of buying crysta to trade for gil, you buy crysta from SE directly.

They could corner the market on the tokens, however the singular price of X amount of gil will always be limited by the price of 1 month subscription. (Based on the demand of crysta and current gil inflation)

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

I respect your right to your own opinions, as everyone is entitled to their own.

However, you're not entitled to your own fact, and I have every right to tear down the posts that are factually incorrect.

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Just...stop...arguing everyone down. I'm done here. Not going to internet-argue with people who think they are constantly right.

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

Reading comprehension fail/10

I also like how I'm apparently demanding for this to be implemented in game despite having said multiple times that I don't think this fits FF14 or that it'll ever be implemented by SE. :rolleyes:

Are some of my posts aggressive? hell yes, because I was ripping apart posts that contained factually incorrect information, just like this post of yours.

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ppl paying monthly fee with gil is as beneficial to SE as ppl paying tickets with community service is to government :D

Me:

• Have a gazillion of real life coins to spend

• Buy game time items

• Sell game time items to other players for gil

You:

• Don't have as much real life coins as me

• Are willing to grind some gil ingame

• Decide to buy game time item from me

Me:

• Now have more gil than I used to

• Decide to buy more game time items (since I still have a gazillion more real life coins to spare)

• Sell those game time items

• Now have even more gil

• Now can afford to pay 40k gil for an item I need (like a double-melded weapon for relic quest, or whatever else I desire from the wards/AH since I'm rich now ingame just as I'm rich in real life)

Other players 1:

• See the transaction history in wards/AH

• Decide they will put up their items for higher prices, since obviously someone can buy them

• Hope the rich person will buy their stuff so that they can afford a game time scroll or the high-priced items, of which the prices in gil they themselves raised that high

Other players 2:

• Don't have that much money in real life, but can pay for subscription

• Don'T have the time or the will to grind 40k for an overpriced item

• Checks wards/AH transaction history

• Says "Oh f*ck"

• Curses the playerbase for inflating the prices

• Curses SE for allowing it

Me:

• Can now buy whatever I want from wards/AH

• Do so whenever possible since I know that if I need gil, I can always sell more game time items as I'm still rich in real life

• Gil has no real value for me, I can buy whatever I want, for whatever the asking price

Other people:

• Can't. . . .

Some people:

• Still think it this has no impact on the ingame economy

Me:

• LOL!

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Originally Posted by gahoo

1. Wouldn't this allow RMT to remove their own subscription costs, since they will clearly have gil to spend on these tokens? While I can see decreased demand for RMT gil as a function of this system, I am guessing RMT has decreased costs as well.

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You're right. The person RMTing against SE's EULA would definetly be able to keep his account(s) running without spending one dollar as long as there's enough supply of PLEX/Crysta/ w/e available on the market.

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Originally Posted by gahoo

2. What's to stop RMT from cornering the market in these tokens? Can they not be resold? I'd think that RMT, with unlimited (hypothetically) gil, would almost be forced to buy all tokens and then resell them at the same rate they sell directly. Is that observed in other games?

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The PLEX/crysta is meant to be tradeable and resellable, so in theory, this could happen.

This, however, never happened in EvE Online. There are people in the game that could easily do so, but they don't. The fact that CCP is hardcapping the price on PLEX is key.

No more PLEX for an acceptable amount of money available on markets would result in all players currently using PLEX return to the normal method of recurring payment via bank transfer. Actually, every EvE-player is at all times subscribed via a payment method, CCP simply isn't pulling any money as long as theres gametime via PLEX active.

All players who want to sell PLEX to receive ingame currency in return simply buy them from CCP and put them up for the usual amount.

Sorry for language, not a native speaker.

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Originally Posted by gahoo

Interesting thread. 2 questions for those in favor:

1. Wouldn't this allow RMT to remove their own subscription costs, since they will clearly have gil to spend on these tokens? While I can see decreased demand for RMT gil as a function of this system, I am guessing RMT has decreased costs as well.

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Naturally, though the final effect is probably a net negative for RMT operations, as other operating costs such as employee, equipment, electricity etc. cannot be negated this way, while the PLEX system sets an artificial price ceiling on what they can charge for their currencies.

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Originally Posted by gahoo

2. What's to stop RMT from cornering the market in these tokens? Can they not be resold? I'd think that RMT, with unlimited (hypothetically) gil, would almost be forced to buy all tokens and then resell them at the same rate they sell directly. Is that observed in other games?

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The supply of those PLEX/Token is unlimited, as long as there are people willing to pay the devs real money in exchange for them. Buying all the ones one the market and reselling (a typical market manipulation technique) may give them some profit boost in the short term (and carries the risk for losses should the bubble implode while they still holds stock), it's an unsustainable cycle as higher in-game price for PLEX only serves to incentivize others to purchase PLEX from the devs and sell for ingame currency, creating additional supplies (in most cases, oversupply) that can only create a bubble that will inevitably burst, as demands for PLEX goes down as price goes up.

Volume is a huge factor here. In Eve the daily trade volume of PLEX is immense (approx. $45,000 to $60,000+ USD worth in the central market hub alone), it's really beyond the capability of any one entity to have anything more than a temporary effect on PLEX price, much less corner its market. As far as the market is concerned, think of PLEX more as a commodities like stocks or gold. Many people uses PLEX as hedge against inflation, and any abnormal price spike is only going to cause the stockholders to release their holdings to make some easy profits.

Would this happen in FF14? it's hard to say, as Eve has one of the largest, most robust and complicated economy/market system in any MMO, so it behaves differently than your typical MMO economy does.

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Originally Posted by Applesnap

Just...stop...arguing everyone down. I'm done here. Not going to internet-argue with people who think they are constantly right.

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LOL

This has nothing to do with whether I think I'm right or not. You stated your arguments, which I countered with my own along with the reasons to show that you statements were in fact incorrect, and that's somehow "arguing people down", whatever that even means. This is a forum, it's used to debate stuff, it's not just used for circle-jerks or undeserved mob pilling-ons like you were doing, which ironically you seem to have no problem with.

The best part of all this? you didn't even once try to actually debate the points I raised, instead immediately resort to "omg you disagreed with me you're a big meanie!!!!11!!"

@Nuinn

you're wrong. nice troll.
3/10 for the attempt.

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Originally Posted by AhmeraMae

@Nuinn

you're wrong. nice troll.
3/10 for the attempt.

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Prove me wrong or a troll :) Yeah, I thought so. . . .
Btw how long did it take for you to switch accounts? Just curious ;) Shhh, your secret is safe with me *angelface*

The PLEX system is one of the things that interests me about EVE, and for that game I think it is a perfect fit. EVE is INCREDIBLY economy based, the entire game is based around it. Your guild is not a guild, it is a corporation. There is industrial espionage, there are guarded convoys for moving materials to market. Tieing the currency to something with a real-world equivalent goes hand in hand with the rest of it.

Does that fit with FFXIV? Not so sure. There are some pros to the system for sure, the big one is that it cuts down on the more aggressive RMT. 1.0 managed to avoid these problems because they pretty much just sat in cedarwood and killed leve karakuls all day, but I remember in XI having to fight for claim with someone who would scream at me in chinese every time I succeeded. It adds more wide-spread competition, which means their corner of the market is smaller, and less will try to occupy it. I foresee that it would increase the number of people who make the real world money > gil transfer, but cut down on the amount of RMT farmers in the community. Maybe a worthwhile change, hard to say.

For me though, the reason that would bother me to see it in this game, is that it does tie a real-world equivalent to your in game currency. For EVE this is fine because a lot of the game is about playing with market factors and having that little extra bit of risk when you take your ship out adds to that. But for FFXIV, I feel it doesn't. The best gear in XIV is all untradeable, and that pattern will likely continue in 2.0. So what it means is that the few big-ticket items are really expensive comparatively. The $-gil comparison is only visible if you go looking on RMT sites, but with the introduction of a PLEX-like item it becomes very obvious. Would you be willing to spend the equivalent of $50 on that double-meld relic weapon? Money becomes more of a concern if there are fewer steps between it and the real world, and to me that ruins some of the "fantasy" in the game.

And it doesn't help that for a lot of us coming from XI, ANY form of RMT has a horrible stigma attached to it because we did interact with the farmers. They were everywhere. We remember the christmas gil sale and how it devastated the economy, and how it took years to recover from. In any case, I doubt SE will be doing anything like this for the launch, alternate payment models seem like something to mess with after the game has been out for a bit and the community more stable.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

ppl paying monthly fee with gil is as beneficial to SE as ppl paying tickets with community service is to government :D

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fail again.

Under the PLEX system, no subscription is paid with gil, as a PLEX is created only when someone has paid the game company real world money first.

The correct ticket analogy would be that instead of cash, the ticket was paid with check instead.

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Originally Posted by Nuinn

Prove me wrong or a troll :) Yeah, I thought so. . . .
Btw how long did it take for you to switch accounts? Just curious ;) Shhh, your secret is safe with me *angelface*

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That's my only account. Prove ME wrong on this one.

Regarding your "request": The GTC-Item is capped in it's value by the currency you buy it with, rl money. If you raise the price above this threshold, no one will buy from you. But there are competitors who also want to get rid of their GCT-Items. They'll undercut you. Some maybe by a fair bit. Also, selling GCT-Items isn't a infinite source of wealth b/c supply of gil and ppl who want to extent their gametime is limited.

Let's assume you tinkered some deals and suddenly own a large amount of money. You spend 30M on a doublemelded weapon, required for your relic-quest. Other ppl see your purchase in the history and adjust their prices according to your wallet. Great.

Now they all offer their weapons for 29M per piece... and wait, adjust their price to be lowest offer... and wait... a competitor undercuts prices by 200k... all adjust... And so on, ans so on. Prices may go crazy for the first week but they usually adjust pretty quickly to a healthy amount.

That's how the cookie crumbles.

the OP is tired of paying so much on RMT gil.

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Originally Posted by Quesse

Agreed. RMT or no RMT, SE does not allow buying gil for RL money. For good reason. This post is like arguing since some people in the USA smoke crack, might as well make it legal so they can get less-expensive clean crack.
Being able to buy gil period hurts the game, especially for the reasons listed above. I don't want a legitimate way or an illegitimate way to buy gil. Keep it out of FFXIV altogether.

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People will always buy gil. Accept it. Am I the only one that's accepted that? My biggest annoyance of RMT was never the people that buy gil to get ahead. I hated that RMT spent ALL day at NMs I was trying to get so I never even stood a chance on my ps2. It was borderline depressing. Every time Anti RMT systems are put into place, it screws us over. Can we please refrain from using sanctimony in our arguments? Buying gil is naughy, gotcha. What solutions can WE as a community come up with. Pro tip: Nothing is ever 100% fair. Since I started with my education analogy, I'll continue. In life, *FFXIV isn't RL, got it* we all have the same opportunity (In America anyway, and under decent circumstances) to realize our aspirations if we put in enough work. Even then it sometimes isn't enough. How fair is it to everyone that a person who was born with means, is able to get into Yale because his parents knows people in admissions, or made a donation, when you had to work X3 as hard or more, just to get a scholarship. Or, you got accepted with no way of paying tuition. It isn't, and complaining about it in life is a gigantic waste of emotional time (IMHO).

Yes, we want our FFXIV time to be completely separate from RL. There are just somethings that will always transfer over into MMO's since the way the game world works is still left in the hands of people. I'm truly interested in hearing a meaningful idea. All I keep seeing is "RMT is bad!" "I don't like RMT, no!" It's like we want FFXIV to be our perfect little world where SE moderates everything, even how expensive people are allowed to price things so supply and demand would vanish. If we had things our way,(assumption INC) some of you would love it if SE made multiple HNMs so we won't have to compete with one another and everyone wins.

My long winded point? Solutions people. I saw this as a great idea. I'm still waiting to see any other solutions. Any ideas on how to close some of the loop holes in the issues you see with this idea?

Oh, and people who buy crack don't do it to get ahead in life.

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Originally Posted by AhmeraMae

That's my only account. Prove ME wrong on this one.

Regarding your "request": The GTC-Item is capped in it's value by the currency you buy it with, rl money. If you raise the price above this threshold, no one will buy from you. But there are competitors who also want to get rid of their GCT-Items. They'll undercut you. Some maybe by a fair bit. Also, selling GCT-Items isn't a infinite source of wealth b/c supply of gil and ppl who want to extent their gametime is limited.

Let's assume you tinkered some deals and suddenly own a large amount of money. You spend 30M on a doublemelded weapon, required for your relic-quest. Other ppl see your purchase in the history and adjust their prices according to your wallet. Great.

Now they all offer their weapons for 29M per piece... and wait, adjust their price to be lowest offer... and wait... a competitor undercuts prices by 200k... all adjust... And so on, ans so on. Prices may go crazy for the first week but they usually adjust pretty quickly to a healthy amount.

That's how the cookie crumbles.

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Except we're forgetting that RMT and botting will still exist, meaning easily obtained gil in large amounts will still exist for the ones willing to risk their accounts or the companies that deal with RMT. If they chose they could still sell gil on their site, in a model close to this:

10$ = game time item = for example, 1mil gil ( if 1mil would be the average price of such item on a server)

RMT company takes notice and adjusts their prices resulting in:

10$ = 2mil gil on a RMT site

SE can only do as much to prevent/ban/terminate RMT or botting accounts. They can't exterminate them completely, and I'm sure that the RMT companies are financially doing just fine not to be upset if they lose 10, or even 50, accounts.

I'm just not sure why people claim, or fail to see, that introducing real money 'advantages' (as in, I can earn gil without actually playing the game for more than 30 minutes) has no long term impact on the game's economy. Just makes me go Jackie Chen face. Furthermore, why they refuse to acknowledge that it is an advantage.

As it is, we're all of different economic status right now => we all play the same game, the same way (not talking about those players that opt to take the illegal route paying for RMT gil).

If game time items are introduced => our economic status allows some to bypass the gil-grind, though true enough, allows people who can't pay for the game with real life money, to still play it.

To be honest, if you can't afford to pay for subscriptions, then you can't play. If you can't afford a decent computer to run the game on, then you can't play. If your real life is crammed with changing jobs, moving to other country, loosing the roof on your house etc. then you can't play.

Tough cookie, but FF XIV will not suffer, as people are leaving and coming back to any MMO constantly.

I'd rather if SE offered deals like 3 months worth of crysta (game time) purchased = get 1 month for free, or something along those lines. Cheaper crysta prices during big holidays or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Nuinn

YOU: Now can afford to pay 40k gil for an item I need (like a double-melded weapon for relic quest, or whatever else I desire from the wards/AH since I'm rich now ingame just as I'm rich in real life)

• Can now buy whatever I want from wards/AH

• Do so whenever possible since I know that if I need gil, I can always sell more game time items as I'm still rich in real life

• Gil has no real value for me, I can buy whatever I want, for whatever the asking price

Other people:

• Can't. . . .

Some people:

• Still think it this has no impact on the ingame economy

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Except you forgot a VERY important part in your equation, and that is, for every dollar you spent and covert into GIL, is gil that you will spend for your item purchases and in fact benefits many other players because they can convert their play time into gil-profit to also better themselves.

This by nature also sets a more true balance supply and demand cycle for the market, as people now can set a cost range for in game items against real money. IE: Back when I was playing EVE, PLEX was pigged at 300m, so players were calculating on the bases of 20m = $1.

So no, it doesn't just benefit you as you have envisioned it. It benefits all parties.

Someone just brought up that RMTs can corner the market by buying all the PLEX and resell at higher prices. Besides the fact that it takes thousands of dollars and really illogical for them, don't forgot the given condition here is that ANYONE can buy PLEX with real cash and place a sell order on the market to fuel the supply. So when the in game price goes up, more players will go buy PLEX and add it back into the market. So if anything, RMT really wants to avoid cornering the market this way, as they want your money, not spend their money.

jc

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Originally Posted by Lirion

I think it would mess up the economy in the game. Stuff would get more expensive because gil would be easy to get for the people with a big wallet irl, leaving the other players behind. Remember that Atomos crystal exploit? Ward prices got crazy, only difference was that everyone in the game could do it.

I'm ok with buying stuff in the game with real money as long as those items are cosmetic only and untradeable. Anything that would give players an advantage will never get support from me, the ideas might be good but as soon as people can buy gil with real money this idea will become something else. The thing Ubisoft is doing with AC3 where you can buy yourself the best stuff in multiplayer is something that needs to die in a fire.

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So, gil wasn't being bought and sold in the game right? People who have the RL money to spare weren't doing it all the while. Is that what you're saying? People keep making statements that insinuate that RMT don't exist already. You pretend they don't exist and have no real idea how the economy has been affected already. Then you come and project that great economic peril we befall us if something like is implemented.

"Anything that would give players an advantage will never get support from me, the ideas might be good but as soon as people can buy gil with real money this idea will become something else."

Gil sellers already exist. They are going to exist in 2.0. People will buy gil. People will complain about Gil sellers. Nothing can be done because we know that we've seen obvious RMT names (uyouffffffu) that have been around for long periods of time without being deleted. Gil sellers are subscriptions that provide SE money. Let's accept these facts ok?

What is the objective? To increase subscribers by allowing a modified FTP model? or to combat RMT?

If the former, then yes I would agree that this could probably help, but right now whether or not the game needs the help is unknown, so seems premature to me.

If the later, "legalizing" the purchasing of gil would certainly increase the number of people to buy gil (obviously). Legalization is, at times, a response to a belief that the costs of prevention are outweighed by the problem. Here, the costs of prevention are predominantly absorbed by SE. They expend X amount to combat RMT, and while one can argue that those resources take away from development, I think that's a pretty flimsy argument. The cost to players of RMT is really if/when RMT is destroying some aspect of gameplay by monopolizing something. Again, not sure right now we are facing this issue.

So seems like adding this system would possible damage unofficial RMT, but at the expense of increasing RMT overall. I don't think we are facing a situation where unofficial gil selling is so rampant that we need to legalize in order to better control/tax the system. Looking at IGE, for example, prices for gil are such that it would seem nobody in their right mind would be buying ($13 for 1300 gil). Are we really facing some major unofficial gil selling issue that we need to legalize and increase RMT?

After reading through all 16 pages I can tell that this debate is divided between the people who:

1. Have no real idea what the plex system actually is and are just scared of the acronym RMT.

2. The people that do know and are trying to explain its benefits to no avail. and

3. The people who somehow got ont he subject of a cash shop/ buying items besides plex and are arguing this even though it is not even a part of this argument lol.

I support this idea of a Plex like system, however I feel like the game systems as they were in 1.0 would support it poorly. We will need to see how 2.0 shakes up to determine whether or not it is feasible.