No Arrows in ARR?!

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Originally Posted by Rokien

OH SORRY, forgot it was SUUUUPPPERR easy to get gil right now....

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It is...and always has been.

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

GG SE, you mock the integrity of RPGing everywhere and every time.

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Please list all of the FF games where you have to actually buy the ammo for your bow/gun/etc.

I find it funny how people complain about stuff being unrealistic in this game while at the same time have no problems accepting that you can conjure balls of fire, lightningbolts, blizzards and so on.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

That aside...

Can I have a show of hands who has had the "Oh No!" moment where you run out of arrows in the middle of a primal fight or raid and have tried to hide that fact from the rest of the party?

EDIT: Just hit the like button if you're too shy to admit it! XD

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Hiir you have no idea how many times this happened to me in aleport.

Arrows and bullets are archaic old MMO relics that should be happily discarded. In ffxi, before the great ranger nerf, people used to defend RNG's amazing damage by saying "they pay for that damage". To prevent balance issues and maintain damage output equality, this is a necessary change.

Currently, the ammunition system isn't really even a gil sink., it's just a transfer of gil from archers/bards to crafters at max level. Now if max level arrows could only be purchased via NPC's, then this might be a different issue (removal of a frequently used gil sink could cause economic issues). Since that's not the case, I say to hell with them.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

They still make bows and lances as well. CRP will be far from useless.

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You completely missed my point. Each crafting class has at least one recipe that results in several consumable items, and generally requires few materials to craft them (certain potions, foods, and arrows are all good examples.) These items are usually very good to craft through certain levels, and often profitable. Weapons and armor are never in as high demand as expendables, and the only equipment people bother to buy repeatedly is often high-level gear due to the way materia crafting works.

So yeah CRP will be useless, since it will only be profitable at endgame, and it won't be worth grinding levels on gear that no one buys to get it to endgame, never mind the millions of gil you would have to make in order to just break even. Why not just admit you can't accept anything in an MMO unless it follows WOW's example?

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Originally Posted by Deakka

Arrows and bullets are archaic old MMO relics that should be happily discarded.

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Careful there buddy. Inconvenience and archaic design is the same thing as challenge to most of the XI drones around here. Also, this idea sucks because WoW did it.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

No, but gaining gil, playing the economy is a lot harder than "here ya go, hand holding more!"

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You play the economy to buy items in the multimillion gil range, not to buy arrows
I'd be more angry about the materia nerfs in 2.0 personally

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Originally Posted by Amherst

Careful there buddy. Inconvenience and archaic design is the same thing as challenge to most of the XI drones around here. Also, this idea sucks because WoW did it. Just getting that out there.

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You have used up your generic bullcrap reasoning tokens for the day, please come back tomorrow for more bull crap tokens.

:D (I get you were playing with him lol)

I would care more if different arrows actually did different things in this game.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

You completely missed my point. Each crafting class has at least one recipe that results in several consumable items, and generally requires few materials to craft them (certain potions, foods, and arrows are all good examples.) These items are usually very good to craft through certain levels, and often profitable. Weapons and armor are never in as high demand as expendables, and the only equipment people bother to buy repeatedly is often high-level gear due to the way materia crafting works.

So yeah CRP will be useless, since it will only be profitable at endgame, and it won't be worth grinding levels on gear that no one buys to get it to endgame, never mind the millions of gil you would have to make in order to just break even. Why not just admit you can't accept anything in an MMO unless it follows WOW's example?

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So what consumables do goldsmiths, blacksmiths, armorers, weavers and leather workers make?

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Originally Posted by KaplanHomahru

It is...and always has been.



Please list all of the FF games where you have to actually buy the ammo for your bow/gun/etc.

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actually there are a few that does. i'm trying to remember which ones did... cause you'd have to buy 99 instead of just 1. I believe in the original 4 you had too. May hap 5 and possibly 6. I never played the original 3 never got very far into 2 and 1 i never used a bow. I also forgot XI

btw with the throw option you had to use ammo for it like Edge with his throw attack you had to buy the shurinken for it to even work some what decently unless you wanted to throw an extra weapon at the enemy

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Originally Posted by Rannie

actually there are a few that does. i'm trying to remember which ones did... cause you'd have to buy 99 instead of just 1. I believe in the original 4 you had too. May hap 5 and possibly 6. I never played the original 3 never got very far into 2 and 1 i never used a bow.

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Yeah, not saying there are none, just not usually so people shouldn't make it out as a staple of all RPGs that must remain.

I don't know why people are complaining about arrow costs now. You knew before you went archer that you had to buy arrows. Infact, different choices in arrows added a level of customization not available in any other job, that alone makes it worth the price.

If you didn't want to buy arrows, maybe you should have leveled a different job? No, instead you whine until developers gut the system to accommodate your hobo lifestyle.

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Originally Posted by KaplanHomahru

Yeah, not saying there are none, just not usually so people shouldn't make it out as a staple of all RPGs that must remain.

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agree with that I hated that fact about those games the only saving grace for it there was better drops for those said items so you never had to worry about running out of them

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Originally Posted by Hart

I don't know why people are complaining about arrow costs now. You knew before you went archer that you had to buy arrows. Infact, different choices in arrows added a level of customization not available in any other job, that alone makes it worth the price.

If you didn't want to buy arrows, maybe you should have leveled a different job? No, instead you whine until developers gut the system to accommodate your hobo lifestyle.

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Quite a fallacy you build yourself on.

Because something is doesnt mean it has to be as.

And SE whipped that one out on their own, I've seen almost zero complaints on arrows at least from the NA side.

I for one... am a mainjob Bard so i spend like 2 stacks of Arrows on Event Days mabe a bit less. In order to compansate the prices for which i buy Arrows, i Lvled Carpenter to 50. Turned out to be a Profit.... now the loss of Arrows would almost hurt me.... then again there will be Furnishings..... so remains to be seen if its really bad. And on the upside I like to craft.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

So what consumables do goldsmiths, blacksmiths, armorers, weavers and leather workers make?

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Chakram, throwing knives, throwing axes, shall I go on? And yes, people do use them.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Because something is doesnt mean it has to be as.

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Speaking of fallacies -- You know, your statement will still be factual even when the arrow change-up has occurred. So I find it odd that you would use it to try and debase my argument.

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Originally Posted by TimonLoon

In his defense... You're spending money trying to min-max. That's perfectly normal. ARC/BRDs are spending money just to deal white damage. From Lv1, all the way to 50, and at end game.

Maybe they don't spend as much money as someone that is min-maxing but to say that they don't spend more money flat out for doing basic things is not only disingenuous, it's not true.

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This man speaks the truth.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

She was pointing out the hypocrisy of Zumi's statement.

You also seem to have forgotten one other important thing, many people level carpenter for ammunition, either to sell, or for thier own personal use, in addition, the arrow recipes are pretty easy to gather materials for, making them good to level on. If you get rid of them, you might as well get rid of carpenter as well, seeing as furniture would require more materials to craft, and it leaves the class with no expendable items worth crafting. (idk about you, but most of the levels I have gained in crafting have been grinding out simple to make, single-use items.)

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I already explained this and you still don't get it, Archer and Bard needs to spend gil to preform their basic function no other class has to spend gil to preform their basic function.

You try to make your point by bring in consumables however, everyone has access to potions and food that increase their performance, they may not be the exact same food or potion but the option is there to use food and potions to increase your performance.

Seeing as carpenter can still make, bows, staffs, lances, some swords and other random armor they won't be doing too bad.

This is a good change and makes bard/archer on par with everything else in the game.

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Originally Posted by Hart

Speaking of fallacies -- You know, your statement will still be factual even when the arrow change-up has occurred. So I find it odd that you would use it to try and debase my argument.

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I never said it had to be one way or another way. I just said you saying it cant be this way was a bad choice for a base of logic.

Specially since SE has said this is the way they prefer the class to be done, so your argument just got bitch slapped by SE lol.

I find the arguments on realism more reliable. Arrows are consumable, consume them.

However my personal opinion is that I'm glad they have removed the arrow upkeep - it is extremely obnoxious to see someones class become useless because they forgot to buy more arrows.

I'm sorry you can't cast anymore spells you forgot to buy crystal points at home - so, too bad the tank needed that cure 5 seconds ago.

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Originally Posted by Hart

I don't know why people are complaining about arrow costs now. You knew before you went archer that you had to buy arrows. Infact, different choices in arrows added a level of customization not available in any other job, that alone makes it worth the price.

If you didn't want to buy arrows, maybe you should have leveled a different job? No, instead you whine until developers gut the system to accommodate your hobo lifestyle.

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I'm sorry, but this is another "Illusion of choice" that a lot of MMO's fall victim to (former WoW, SWTOR etc). What possible benefit can a lv50 archer have by using mythril arrows opposed to cobalt? Weathered composed to bronze? If anything, it's just a tool designed to punish those who don't research out of game (in other words, busy work that pulls you away from actually doing content). If there were status and enfeebling arrows, it'd be a different story. But no, it's all flat damage +

There is no hobo mentality with this (other than some JP's using weathered arrows until cobalt). It's simply an artificial gate in a genre where those gates are seen as old and, quite frankly, pointless. Why not simply bake the arrow damage into normal bard/archer formulas? Since every level capped bard doing bleeding edge content will be bringing cobalt arrows anyway. There's no sense to it other than reducing player performance for those who don't do "busy work". It's not a skill check in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Archer and Bard needs to spend gil to preform their basic function no other class has to spend gil to preform their basic function.

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So what? I started out as an archer, I leveled it all the way to 50, then unlocked bard, and as I said before I never once cried about the fact I had to buy ammo. I have given multiple reasons why removing ammo is more trouble than keeping it, the only response I have recieved pretty much amounts to "well I don't like it" in one form or another.

Therefore, I'm just going to claim victory in this debate since the naysayers couldn't come up with anything better than selfish reasons or statements of entitlement.

Ciao.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

So what? I started out as an archer, I leveled it all the way to 50, then unlocked bard, and as I said before I never once cried about the fact I had to buy ammo. I have given multiple reasons why removing ammo is more trouble than keeping it, the only response I have recieved pretty much amounts to "well I don't like it" in one form or another.

Therefore, I'm just going to claim victory in this debate since the naysayers couldn't come up with anything better than selfish reasons or statements of entitlement.

Ciao.

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It's a quality of life improvement for Bard and Archer and puts them on par with everything else in terms of spending gil. Some people on here keep acting like its a bad thing when nobody should be complaining about it.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

So what? I started out as an archer, I leveled it all the way to 50, then unlocked bard, and as I said before I never once cried about the fact I had to buy ammo. I have given multiple reasons why removing ammo is more trouble than keeping it, the only response I have recieved pretty much amounts to "well I don't like it" in one form or another.

Therefore, I'm just going to claim victory in this debate since the naysayers couldn't come up with anything better than selfish reasons or statements of entitlement.

Ciao.

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You lose, I win.

Why because a bunch of baseless reasons similar to the ones you gave.

Arrows is an outdated mechanic, SE could revamp the arrow system and maintain its consumption but they have however choose not to. If you want to revive it then give a good reason why, not ask us why not.

If you are trying to make motion it is on you to give good reason why. And as far as im concerned "it costs money and I think im cool for paying it, makes me l33t" is not a good reason.

More reasonable points to take down:
Gilsink lost - carpteners are getting housing items
Realism lost - Its easy to argue this one either way and I think this is the best bet for argument

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

So what? I started out as an archer, I leveled it all the way to 50, then unlocked bard, and as I said before I never once cried about the fact I had to buy ammo. I have given multiple reasons why removing ammo is more trouble than keeping it, the only response I have recieved pretty much amounts to "well I don't like it" in one form or another.

Therefore, I'm just going to claim victory in this debate since the naysayers couldn't come up with anything better than selfish reasons or statements of entitlement.

Ciao.

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Just because you didn't complain about it, doesn't mean there is nothing wrong with it.

The fact is, arrows are a gil/timesink that archer/bards must participate in to do any content at all. You can spew forth nonsense about optional/enhancing consumables all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that arrows are/were technically an imbalance.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

Chakram, throwing knives, throwing axes, shall I go on? And yes, people do use them.

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Lol... you're so sure that they will remain. Even if they do they'll no longer be spammed nearly as much since TP is becoming pure regent based and not generated.

And that's how the cookie crumbles.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

So what? I started out as an archer, I leveled it all the way to 50, then unlocked bard, and as I said before I never once cried about the fact I had to buy ammo. I have given multiple reasons why removing ammo is more trouble than keeping it, the only response I have recieved pretty much amounts to "well I don't like it" in one form or another.

Therefore, I'm just going to claim victory in this debate since the naysayers couldn't come up with anything better than selfish reasons or statements of entitlement.

Ciao.

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You gathered those arrows because you had to. It was just a part of the game mechanic at the time, and now it's changing. It's a quality of life adjustment. I frequent these forums often and I rarely (if ever) saw requests for dropping ammunition in game. You're bringing the mentality of "If I had to do it, so does everyone else" into it.

I have a bard at 50, and I still spend an hour or two farming mats for the week. I never complain, I just accept it. Now I'll be glad that I won't be stuck doing busy work for said hour in the future.

In addition, remember the entire TP system is changing (one of the biggest reasons why people use those consumables is to increase their TP gain). So chakrams, bomb arms, beans etc will just be used for pulling. In fact, they may not even be needed for that (referencing the new DRG ranged tp attack from the gameplay vids). Those throwing items are going to lose their value in utility dramatically, so we'll see far less people using them. So any argument based on those consumables will become void in ARR.

It's a brave new world, and it's changing. Things become obsolete (ammo, throwing items), new things take their place, eventually some of those may become obsolete. Fearing change leads to stagnation. Yoshi-P is bringing us progress, even if he has to drag us...kicking and screaming all the way

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

So what? I started out as an archer, I leveled it all the way to 50, then unlocked bard, and as I said before I never once cried about the fact I had to buy ammo. I have given multiple reasons why removing ammo is more trouble than keeping it, the only response I have recieved pretty much amounts to "well I don't like it" in one form or another.

Therefore, I'm just going to claim victory in this debate since the naysayers couldn't come up with anything better than selfish reasons or statements of entitlement.

Ciao.

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We're all really proud of you. Most of us actually enjoy keeping our gil for other things.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

Chakram, throwing knives, throwing axes, shall I go on? And yes, people do use them.

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You don't need these as a core part of your job. More about min-maxing your performance.

ARC/BRD are useless without arrows.

I really hope my CRP will have a new purpose in 2.0. One of the few crafts I actually liked.

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Originally Posted by Holy_Dragoon

I really hope my CRP will have a new purpose in 2.0. One of the few crafts I actually liked.

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Furniture and housing pieces. SE also talked about possibly needing a carpenter to install new roofing.


(Housing system is still very much so in development)

If they can make quivers, they'll be about as useful as the other crafts (assuming the other throwing items are being reduced to single equip items)

Either way, SE has plenty of time to balance the crafts before 2.0. CRP being obsoleted using the old mechanics isn't a good reason to keep expensive ammo.

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Originally Posted by Holy_Dragoon

I really hope my CRP will have a new purpose in 2.0. One of the few crafts I actually liked.

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Furniture! :D

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I never said it had to be one way or another way. I just said you saying it cant be this way was a bad choice for a base of logic.

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You're either talking in circles or putting words into my mouth. I never said it can't be anything. It's like you totally disregarded anything I actually said and decided to rebuke just on a whim.

The system was fine, you had no problems with archer using ammo until they planned on changing it and you decided to play devil's advocate.

As for running out of ammo... it sucks, we get that. No one does it on purpose, and everyone makes mistakes. With that said, as an archer, you know you have a limited amount of ammo and you know it is your primary attack. It is your responsibility to keep track of your own inventory. Everyone does this to some extent. Why now is this an issue?

If we really need to address conserving money I think SE should implement some sort of majicked lunchbox that will supply me with unlimited food dishes so I don't actually have to pay to feed myself.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Furniture and housing pieces. SE also talked about possibly needing a carpenter to install new roofing.


(Housing system is still very much so in development)

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New crafting class: Contractor
Levels up by taking exams priced at 100k gil per level

Draws up blueprints. Blueprints can then be sold at a ridiculous profit. Is then hired out by players to actually do the work.Contractor can then swing by Gridania and sub hire non capped crafters for 5gil an hour to do the actual work.

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Originally Posted by Hart

You're either talking in circles or putting words into my mouth. I never said it can't be anything. It's like you totally disregarded anything I actually said and decided to rebuke just on a whim.

The system was fine, you had no problems with archer using ammo until they planned on changing it and you decided to play devil's advocate.

As for running out of ammo... it sucks, we get that. No one does it on purpose, and everyone makes mistakes. With that said, as an archer, you know you have a limited amount of ammo and you know it is your primary attack. It is your responsibility to keep track of your own inventory. Everyone does this to some extent. Why now is this an issue?

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Just because the system is in place doesn't mean it's fine. Players do what they have to do in order to do content and be competitive. Most people don't complain because they accept the system as is. It doesn't mean it's a good system by any means though. It's an extra wrinkle in micromanagement that no class has to deal with.

It all has to do with "busy work", content (like farming gil for arrows or materials to craft them yourself) whose only goal is to let you do other content. That differs from content that has it's own rewards and leads you to higher level content (progressing in missions/quests etc). Most MMO's have been leading away from "busy work" content for awhile... since it's truly the definition of grinding. It's just not fun content. Why have 1/8th of the player base waste time (above and beyond what everyone else does with food/potions etc) doing said busy work when they could be doing more fun content. Now if you can say with a straight face that you enjoy having an extra hour or two farming (or spending extra gil just to remain on par), then I'm shocked. It's just not actual content, it's an artificial gate.

Busy work needs to die in a fire

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Originally Posted by Holy_Dragoon

I really hope my CRP will have a new purpose in 2.0. One of the few crafts I actually liked.

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I'll commission you or someone in the ls to make the furniture and stuff for my house ^_^ there you're needed holy

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Originally Posted by Hart

If you didn't want to buy arrows, maybe you should have leveled a different job? No, instead you whine until developers gut the system to accommodate your hobo lifestyle.

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Lol ok I just had to comment on this one.

Looking at the archer/bard forum, I see one thread asking for arrow removal that is buried under a few pages, but that is about it. One thread, that is it. I can't comment on the other languages, however, I am pretty sure there was little demand for it...

With all of these changes we are getting, maybe they aren't doing them because people are whining, but rather because... *gasp* these changes make sense...

We are seeing many changes in 2.0 that are clearly being made to make the game more enjoyable to a larger audience. It is obvious these alterations are causing you some amount of mental distress, yet here you remain. Instead of griping about them catering to certain "lifestyles", maybe you should take a step back and realize that they have a clear vision for 2.0, and you were expecting them to cater it to your "lifestyle".

I'm a big proponent of "no-ammo" ammo systems, what I lose in realism is made up for in freedom from monetary constraints.


and my big buggabo about having to buy ammo is simply... Mages don't have to buy each indavidual spell cast, mellee's don't have to buy Pockets full of axe heads, blades and spear tips for each indavidual attack... so why should the Ranged classes be totatly reliant on wether or not the ammo they need to actually play that class is affordable/available in sufficent quanities

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Originally Posted by Shougun

If you are trying to make motion it is on you to give good reason why. And as far as im concerned "it costs money and I think im cool for paying it, makes me l33t" is not a good reason.

More reasonable points to take down:
Gilsink lost - carpteners are getting housing items
Realism lost - Its easy to argue this one either way and I think this is the best bet for argument

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Dunno why I'm even going to grace this with an answer...

where the hell in my argument did I EVER say I was rich or was leet?!?! If you really must know I currently have less than 100k on my char right now, and the most I've ever had in this game at any time was 3 million gil (which is not much in this game) and I still have no problem affording ammunition for my bard, I have yet to beat garuda or van darnus on hard or even extreme mode yet, I hardly consider myself leet. I used myself as an example, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of main job arcs/brds who got to level 50, and never once cursed the fact that they had to buy ammo.

Also, justifying getting rid of something because you think it is archaic or outdated is just concieted of you. As I stated before, no one has given a good reason to get rid of the feature. (and given that you keep repeating the same garbage, it's unlikely there is one) Until I hear otherwise from say a mod or a dev, I say to you again: I win, debate over, goodbye.