Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

I want to touch on the voice chat topic (Not the rest directly, this is a bit too inflammatory for me)

Ultimate, at the time of the content introduction, was thought to be unpuggable. Something like UCOB is mainly an execution check, and the ease of entry (direct queue) meant that you did have people get reasonably far in the opening days. Once strategies started to become more normalized, it became feasible, but that came through years of community effort through guides, toolboxes, videos, and simulators. Shoutout to clees.


It's awful.

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Yeah , I am not even arguing against voice chat. It is obviously useful, especially for blind prog. I have used voice chats before mostly in statics.
And sure ultimate is the hardest content in the game and it must have been a mess on introduction.

However, FT isn't ultimate level content , it's arguably not even savage level. And I have pugged ultimates and some of the hardest savage tiers from week 1-2 onwards with really no need for organized runs or VC. Once the 'puzzles' are solved there is almost no benefit to VC, in fact it can be a distraction.

That's why this is so absurd to me. The mechanics aren't the issue. FT has been solved since week 1.
The issue is the amount of organizing it takes, to get a prog-able instance going and the punitive system around wiping which enforces discord only organizing, and VC callouts in an attempt to minimize those wipes. Which again not even ultimate PF prog enforces.
This leads to a huge problem even within the discord servers where there is too few runs hosted to meet the demands, cause everyone that wants to do said content is funneled through servers with limited capacity.

It is just a huge flop on SE's side that this has to happen.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

To me it's weird because while I agree that Square created a problem where some toxicity might arise, it's also that clunky weird way of designing this content that built a community around Eureka and BA, and it's where I met a lot of people I am currently friends with. It's why I say it was probably intentional, and why I can't decide if it's terrible design, despite people calling me a discord elitist narcissist and being hostile towards me.

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Yeah, I understand where you are coming from with that, but we have to think of what's best for the majority of people trying to do this stuff, in both regards. I think we can agree that if someone yoinks a spot in a premade, and causes an instance wipe via this mechanic here that 0blivion so kindly sourced, there is more "suffering by the majority". And I do mean direct suffering, not ambivalence. This entry method is causing a lot of direct suffering in the content by the majority, and of those who are not, are probably veterans like us who are used to SE screwing us over like this, doesn't mean it's acceptable. Most won't have the experiences we did. We could have still got that experience if it was more like DRS, those still require significant coordination and didn't cause this much blowback because it was designed better in this regard.

We made some battle brothers in those trenches, I know. But SE said they wouldn't do it again, and they did. The well is poisoned.

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

I am an avid white knight of Square and 14 but Forked Tower and most of their recent updates are not defendable at all.

I root for Square and 14 to succeed as I am in love with this game but they have to be better. Always the goddamn shitty fights that are nearly impossible for the average player. No wonder most of my friends stopped playing already. It's so frustrating.

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Do you mind if I ask you why? After everything that has happened in the last two expansions? I'm not saying you are wrong. But I am wondering why would you hope for better, when not even the developers seem interested? How do you maintain that belief?

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

People talk when they play video games together. The game requires strategy, and some things can only be accomplished by a team that is on the same page. It's easier to get to that point when you can speak your thoughts than type them, if you are not already following the same script/raidplan.

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I don’t really disagree with the „speaking“ and voice chat point as I also used it from time to time but I think people often forget that many have not English as their first language and so are averse to a Discord voicechat (I know others exist but English is the biggest language) or they have other reasons to not wanting to speak like privacy or even simple “I don’t want to use Discord”.

But I think the biggest thing some overlook, even if they mean well with Discord (and I agree that it first and foremost exists to help players) is that it partly goes against what a good number of players actually expect of this game or like of it.

This game since forever gave people the ability to play an MMO with others while only interacting in chat at most.
It was enough to clear even savage. A macro in chat and you were good to go.
Just doing a 180 from SE and going full „lol no, use voicechat“ goes pretty much against it.

I am not saying Discord is bad but I think it’s also important to at least try to understand why some people are so averse against it.
It’s not right to hate on those who use Discord but it’s also not correct to attack those who don’t want to use it.

Some people are maybe antisocial but others might have completely different reasons and content shouldn’t need it, at least not in a game that invited people with the promise of “you can do your things completely ingame”, and especially not in content that is supposed to be for the more casual crowd.

At one point I predict the casuals will become fed up.
Not only because they get no content but also because they get hate for simply not wanting to use a third party tool.
And I can’t blame them.

I would even go so far and say that for a good number of players FF14 is some kind of “safe heaven” that didn’t force them to interact with others outside simple chats ingame and I don’t see how anyone has the right to judge that.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

They think what they're doing is great regardless. See: their response to the negative Island Sanctuary feedback.

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sad part about the island is unable to make a house on it. would have fixed many thing overall

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I mean the way you call me Discord Elitist makes me think you're scared of engaging with people through voice. Like Discord's a standard for playing games online, you can go into OverwatchMarvel Rivals ranked with a group and you will 99% of the time use Discord.



I wanted to give him some grace but it's starting to look like that for me as well lmao.

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I wouldn't call you discord elitist at all but mostly your prefered way to play. But try to see that not everyone might enjoy it in itself so if a content cannot be done thro in-game chat for me there is a problem. Making thing hard is fine but forked is well kinda in a bad spot because of how you enter and then people pushing away the others that doesn't use discord make it not just unfriendly but damage the content overall.

You being there gravely hinders their chance of clearing the content. They know it, and you probably know it too, given you managed to live through 1st boss and the corridor afterwards. As long as the group intends to clear, you will not be raised, you were even warned.
Besides, I don't necessarily believe you were sniped by the 2nd boss's TB on purpose, given how that TB works, would had to be a rather impressive snipe.

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

I wouldn't call you discord elitist at all but mostly your prefered way to play. But try to see that not everyone might enjoy it in itself so if a content cannot be done thro in-game chat for me there is a problem. Making thing hard is fine but forked is well kinda in a bad spot because of how you enter and then people pushing away the others that doesn't use discord make it not just unfriendly but damage the content overall.

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TBH I'm not even into Discord that much, I mostly prefer to play without voice, but I am also not especially against it since this content in particular doesn't require me to talk to anyone but to listen to someone guide me through the dungeon. It's why I'm surprised at the hostility and thinking that discord is the "scourge of humanity".

Trying to see the silver lining here for me is that just like Odin says, the clunky way this was designed forced me to interact with people and eventually make friends over trying to clear BA and Eureka.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

TBH I'm not even into Discord that much, I mostly prefer to play without voice, but I am also not especially against it since this content in particular doesn't require me to talk to anyone but to listen to someone guide me through the dungeon. It's why I'm surprised at the hostility and thinking that discord is the "scourge of humanity".

Trying to see the silver lining here for me is that just like Odin says, the clunky way this was designed forced me to interact with people and eventually make friends over trying to clear BA and Eureka.

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This simplest explanation is that many players have had extremely negative experiences with FF14 Discord.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

This simplest explanation is that many players have had extremely negative experiences with FF14 Discord.

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The FF14 Discord is run by REDDIT.

Of course their experience is going to be horrendous!

As a side note though I think it's a mistake to make a savage-level raid 48 people. It should be 24 people, like chaotic. Keep the 48 people for more casual alliances. Cause that on itself is a breeding ground for toxicity and discord gatekeeping. How are you suppose to coordinate 48 people and make sure there are no griefers? It's kind of crazy to me that they went with this.
It's literally stacking every possible thing that could lead to time wastage and griefed runs, on top of eachother and putting it out as content.

Yeah, there's literally specialized discords for Field Exploration. Nobody is using the r/ffxiv discord for that, and people in this thread implying that they thought so reveals that they didn't even try to engage with FT.

/e: We shouldn't be deprived of 48man savage runs just because some people refuse to coordinate, discord or otherwise. DRS is obviously the preferred way to do it, but the concept of a 48man savage itself is good and fine. Plus, FT is kinda free aside from instance gacha and snipers griefing, it's around Chaotic difficulty, but more unforgiving because of the boss 2 memes and the res limit.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

Yeah, there's literally specialized discords for Field Exploration. Nobody is using the r/ffxiv discord for that, and people in this thread implying that they thought so reveals that they didn't even try to engage with FT.

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Can you stop with your gaslighting and barely disguised attacks at players at this point?
No one even said they use the ffxiv Discord for that.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

I mean, why bring it up if not to imply that they think that being in the r/ffxiv discord is the same as joining one of the like, 5 major field exploration discords.

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Because it was just an example completely unrelated to Forked tower?

Edit:
I honestly just blacklist you at this point.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

This simplest explanation is that many players have had extremely negative experiences with FF14 Discord.

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I mean, why bring it up if not to imply that they think that being in the r/ffxiv discord is the same as joining one of the like, 5 major field exploration discords.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

Yeah, there's literally specialized discords for Field Exploration. Nobody is using the r/ffxiv discord for that, and people in this thread implying that they thought so reveals that they didn't even try to engage with FT.

/e: We shouldn't be deprived of 48man savage runs just because some people refuse to coordinate, discord or otherwise. DRS is obviously the preferred way to do it, but the concept of a 48man savage itself is good and fine. Plus, FT is kinda free aside from instance gacha and snipers griefing, it's around Chaotic difficulty, but more unforgiving because of the boss 2 memes and the res limit.

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'48 man runs are fine'

Goes on an unhinged tirade against people 'sniping' your precious premade instance. No sir, it was not fine.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

I mean, why bring it up if not to imply that they think that being in the r/ffxiv discord is the same as joining one of the like, 5 major field exploration discords.

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I was talking about the multiple Discords associated with many areas of FF14 not the reddit thing.

That makes more sense - I only frequent two of the major OC/DRS/BA discords because the others have absolutely rancid vibes, but that's the game.

And again, if DRS system was here, we could just dodge people who behave like the OP of this thread. And then none of the people who are snipers today would ever run it, lol.


/e: But until then, I expect the basic courtesy of people stepping off the pavilion when told to kindly by a premade, as seen in OP's screencap. You don't do dribbling practice at a basketball court where two teams are organizing a real match, do you?

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

That makes more sense - I only frequent two of the major OC/DRS/BA discords because the others have absolutely rancid vibes, but that's the game.

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I'm global mod for a small (~6k members) Discord server for a different game. I'm positive about Discord in general.

I've also been a member of about a dozen Discord servers related to FF14 PvP and other content.

With a single exception, "rancid vibes" is a fair description of FF14-related Discord servers that I have joined (and left).

I think we've solved this mystery of why many players avoid them.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

Yeah, there's literally specialized discords for Field Exploration. Nobody is using the r/ffxiv discord for that, and people in this thread implying that they thought so reveals that they didn't even try to engage with FT.

/e: We shouldn't be deprived of 48man savage runs just because some people refuse to coordinate, discord or otherwise. DRS is obviously the preferred way to do it, but the concept of a 48man savage itself is good and fine. Plus, FT is kinda free aside from instance gacha and snipers griefing, it's around Chaotic difficulty, but more unforgiving because of the boss 2 memes and the res limit.

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What on earth are you even talking about. I am literally IN 2 of the field op discords. And I have been in the ABBA one for years. So your argument that we don't know what we're talking about is moot.
The experience fucking sucks, with or without discord. 'FT is free he says'. After I just told him people PF ultimate and yet they can't PF FT. Yeah, quite free. All of the people I know that have been hard progging this IN discord since day 1, have either barely cleared or not cleared. (most of them haven't). Stop with the SE bootlicking. This isn't the time for it.

Are you telling me ABBA doesn't host reclear runs despite being the ones who made the strats? Because if so, I seriously gotta level my alt to see that. That said, CS3 sucks, but then individuals deliberately making harder for others sucks even more. Go on, try to organize an in-instance run that goes past first corridors without sniping premades. I'm not holding my breath though.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

Are you telling me ABBA doesn't host reclear runs despite being the ones who made the strats? Because if so, I seriously gotta level my alt to see that. That said, CS3 sucks, but then individuals deliberately making harder for others sucks even more. Go on, try to organize an in-instance run that goes past first corridors without sniping premades. I'm not holding my breath though.

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of you join a FT in a server and randoms join the run and you are in a premade you should try to work with them and if one of the person stream it doesn't mean they want to snipe that person. we call this welcome to something you can que with anyone! I know and don't watch people streaming 14 so if I am call a stream sniper and get left behind I will see it as griefing me and reporting the whole group.


Gate keeping and griefing are both against ToS

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

We shouldn't be deprived of 48man savage runs just because some people refuse to coordinate, discord or otherwise. DRS is obviously the preferred way to do it, but the concept of a 48man savage itself is good and fine.

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We shouldn't have been deprived of a CLL equivalent for the third piece of savage content in like 7 months.

I agree that discord shouldn't be required. I mean, you can get away without it for most other things like Extreme and Savage. However, we filter these to just people who know the mechanics via Party Finder instead. So there's a filter either way.

The issue is we can't filter it to people who have prepared properly with the way it works. Someone could enter thinking it's like Dalriada, have no clue what they are doing and wipe everyone and it fails. Which is unfair to the 47 other players, and that's the truth.

And because SE made it require this much coordination to avoid being ejected unlike, say, CLL and Dalriada, it would probably be hard to progress as a bunch of randoms. But you know what, the people here are free to try and gather 24 people to enter it as a PUG. I actually never see any discord groups entering it when I'm in there - everyone just ignores it, so why not find an instance where the discord groups don't care and enter it? See how far you get.

After that, you might see why there are Discord servers there, purely trying to help you, trying to work around SE's poor entry system. Which, to be clear, you should blame SE for, not discords.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

Are you telling me ABBA doesn't host reclear runs despite being the ones who made the strats? Because if so, I seriously gotta level my alt to see that. That said, CS3 sucks, but then individuals deliberately making harder for others sucks even more. Go on, try to organize an in-instance run that goes past first corridors without sniping premades. I'm not holding my breath though.

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Barely? The reclears just started popping up and it's maybe 5% of hosted runs. How long has this content been out? It's taking people longer to clear than a bloody ultimate. And it isn't due to the difficulty.
But yeah still think 48 man raids suck, what are you even worth in a team of 48 people? It just feels completely out of place for the level of self achievement you want from savage level content and just sets the raid up for infinite griefed runs due to lack of cohesion and RNG. I seriously do not get the appeal. The entry progging just completely kills any reason to do it.

They really need to look at FT in general since it seems so poorly designed. OC is essentially casual grind content where you can meander around solo or in haphhazard groups, only to remove part of the experience to be exclusive to organized groups. They really need to look at this so people can get the entire experience.

OP's message seems like a fair discussion of the behavior people are experiencing for just trying to enjoy what little content is released supposedly for the non-static raider players. Most probably wouldn't even know that they aren't allowed in or that it's not possible for them to complete the story of the zone due to the content being designed in a way to encourage gatekeeping.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I agree that discord shouldn't be required. I mean, you can get away without it for most other things like Extreme and Savage. However, we filter these to just people who know the mechanics via Party Finder instead. So there's a filter either way.

The issue is we can't filter it to people who have prepared properly with the way it works. Someone could enter thinking it's like Dalriada, have no clue what they are doing and wipe everyone and it fails. Which is unfair to the 47 other players, and that's the truth.

And because SE made it require this much coordination to avoid being ejected unlike, say, CLL and Dalriada, it would probably be hard to progress as a bunch of randoms. But you know what, the people here are free to try and gather 24 people to enter it as a PUG. I actually never see any discord groups entering it when I'm in there - everyone just ignores it, so why not find an instance where the discord groups don't care and enter it? See how far you get.

After that, you might see why there are Discord servers there, purely trying to help you, trying to work around SE's poor entry system. Which, to be clear, you should blame SE for, not discords.

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And what instance is that? How are you suppose to know this? The system is FFA and anyone can put ciphers in there and participate in the bidding war, it is atrocious design when you think about it. The raid should not be in the instance , at all.
Atleast if they did DRS equivalent you would not have this clash between instance farmers and discord raiders, and you would also be able to funnel some of the host requirements through PF instead of overwhelming discord servers. (They need to set up PF so it can filter for phantom jobs).
The whole thing is just very poorly thought out. I could literally do a better job.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

We shouldn't have been deprived of a CLL equivalent for the third piece of savage content in like 7 months.

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I'm a Savage raider (just saying that so I don't have anyone accusing me of being a complaining casual) and I completely agree that it sucks the more chill laid-back exploratory zone content didn't get a more chill puggable instance like Dalriada. CLL and Dalriada had enough teeth to be interesting while also being something that those in the instance could band together and manage their way through. It really is a shame there isn't community-minded content like this. I agree that even Chaotic had a much more narrow audience and we need more fun and interesting and even a little spicy content that the majority of people can enjoy. This benefits the entire spectrum of playstyles and experience levels because it's something we all enjoy together.

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Originally Posted by itachi-otsutsuki

And what instance is that? How are you suppose to know this? The system is FFA and anyone can put ciphers in there and participate in the bidding war, it is atrocious design when you think about it. The raid should not be in the instance , at all.

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Cipher design is there to force people into the instance. Makes OC appear fuller when the raiders are forced to hang out there to get into their raid.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I don't know if I could call out SE on this one given how popular and liked the Baldesion Arsenal is, and how doing that on discords was okay for almost 10 years now, but suddenly out of nowhere Forked Tower is an outlier?

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How popular do you think BA actually is? Outside of those discord groups running it, what new players are actually clearing it? FFXIV Collect only has 16% of registered players with clearing BA once. DRS at 8.8%. These raids aren't that popular. But even then, BA was at the end of Eureka. DRS was outside of Bozja. They weren't the initial raid of a field ops zone (fine, BA was, but again was at the end of Eureka release). And, whatever anyone wants to say, FT is able to be queued by anyone walking up to it. That is CBU3 design philosophy for it, as much as people want to claim about sniped spots.
FT is an absolute mess and I wont be surprised if OC is dead, by the next patch, given what CBU3 have released. And remember, this is their FOURTH iteration of field content.

The other drawback to FT that I've noticed is that when 2/3 of the instance are in it, it's a lot harder to do the content in the zone itself because you have less people available for CEs and FATEs. I actually saw Calamity fail again for the first time since the first week because there just weren't enough people doing it and there were some that were obviously either new or just not as experienced in it. Usually you can muddle through tricky CEs with brute force and tons of raising but not when you're crippled in numbers.

This wasn't as much of an issue with CLL and Dalriada because the available instance size was much larger.

If "sniping" was not intended it would not be possible. SE designed DRS to make it impossible there, so I'm going to assume this is meant for people in the instance to be able to join. If it cannot be cleared with pugs then the difficulty of it needs to be nerfed significantly. No queue system = no Savage

Put the Wandering Minstrel in the Phantom Village with a queue for a hard version! Give everyone what they want.

At the end of the day, I think this is where I stand:

1. Players without question should provide feedback ("complain") about the mismatch between Forked Tower's entry mechanics and what the Tower requires in terms of execution. The free-for-all entry requirements should align with the lack of Baldesion Arsenal's fifty check boxes of, "Are you sure you understand that this is hard content??"

2. In the meantime, any one, any party, any premade trying to queue for Forked Tower should have a plan for working with and helping players who don't understand how demanding the content is. If you're in the premade who has done all the prep, either leave some spots free and be ready to help the folks who take them, or have a spiel ready to recruit hopeful folk for your next run. On the other hand, if you're the solo player trying to queue, then understand that you might be told that you do not have the phantom jobs or knowledge or willingness-to-read-and-join-a-voice-chat to be a helpful presence.

Ive said it before and say it again overtuned garbage. you cant que, you cant choose instance, you can randomly enter tower, you NEED certain jobs... you basically can not clear on randoms, can not just "prog" due delevel and all AND today i learned from the forums as german player the last boss screws us due them MIXING UP HIS ATTACK NAMES!

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

2. In the meantime, any one, any party, any premade trying to queue for Forked Tower should have a plan for working with and helping players who don't understand how demanding the content is. If you're in the premade who has done all the prep, either leave some spots free and be ready to help the folks who take them, or have a spiel ready to recruit hopeful folk for your next run. On the other hand, if you're the solo player trying to queue, then understand that you might be told that you do not have the phantom jobs or knowledge or willingness-to-read-and-join-a-voice-chat to be a helpful presence.

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Typing out an explanation in chat is not going to be sufficient for what are effectively savage fights, and a person that doesn't know the script can easily cause a wipe and waste the time of up to 47 other people. Groups would need to either direct them to videos, wait, and hope that they can retain the information, or bring them into the Discord server anyway, give them a pamphlet, and hope that they can retain the information. CS3's special brand of stupidity with this has left both sides without a clear solution that resolves things amicably.

all i can see is that people politely asked them to not interfere with their premade, even using "please" a couple of times

I doubt that he got killed by a tankbuster and whatever drama he came up with there (how do you even get hit by a tankbuster when you flock with the group).

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Originally Posted by YumieYumiki

And this is why i dont touch high end pve content with a ten foot pole. But excusing harassment of players who just join something through a public queue? Jfc this playerbase's hypocrisy is off the charts.

Great community BTW

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This wouldn't happen in literally any other piece of high end content because you'd be hurting your own prog. Not to mention, you could simply back out and kick someone from your party if they lied about their prog point or were simply causing to many problems. This is uniquely a Forked Tower problem due to how shortsighted the devs were. While they shouldn't have deliberately killed the OP and their friend, they're under no obligation to help them via raises or whatnot. OP queued solo, thus it's on them to deal with being solo. Even killing them isn't necessarily to be jerks, but to prevent two randoms who may have no idea how to do the mechanics from wiping everyone else.

All in all, this is entirely on the devs for creating a raid that is far too difficult due to the needed coordination yet didn't allow groups to queue in.

I'm so sorry to see the negativity you're dealing with in the comments. Please don’t let them get to you—their hostility is a reflection of their own issues, not of you. It’s been disheartening to watch the FFXIV community grow more toxic over the last few years, especially when it's a game meant for enjoyment. You did absolutely nothing wrong by simply queueing up to play. I'm rooting for you and hope you get that clear soon!

Is there anything at all in the entry process that indicates that this is even a fight that needs progging, let alone one where specific comps are required?

I think it's important to remember that most players are smarter than us forum posters and don't waste their time here. As such, all they know is that they have leveled OC to the point where the next step is the raid. And naturally they attempt to join it.

Imagine the confusion and hurt such people will experience when they complete all these steps, get into the raid preload area, and are then told they should leave.

It's quite incredible that, hot on the heels of CAR, SE could push out content that was 100% guaranteed to produce more player conflict.

Edit: just saw Carin-Eri asked the same question earlier in this lovefest.

This is staggeringly bad game design. (I know, and water is wet.)

"Queue" and "Stream" sniping to me are hilarious, because who are you and why would I watch your stream? Why do these people think we all sit and watch them drool for a few hours-we come home and we log in with what little time we have. I don't care what you're doing. I don't care who you are. No one does. You're not allowed to kill someone because they logged in and queued into content. I've never heard of that streamer in my life. I read his name 3 minutes ago and I don't even remember what letter it starts with.

FFXIV community is very interesting. Year after year they pat themselves on the back for winning a community award, and then they go right back to griefing each other in game, and writing up google-doc call out posts over ebreakups. Now the new scandal is queuing into content without first consulting twitch and discord moderators. Lol. Just report him and get him banned. That would have gave him a good ratings bump and then also ding his account-so a win win for you both. He gets the attention he clearly craves and isnt getting at home, you get to know he's on borrowed time from here on out.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because pre planned groups would simply leave if they got spots taken by randoms because you can’t force groups to baby randoms in this content.

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actually SE already put rules down for this in the BA era because of people who were joining BA and leaving immediately to grief groups.

if you leave the content immediately its considered griefing and is reportable! FT/BA work different so leaving right when you enter cause you dont like who you are with is a reportable offense.

dang this thread blew up while i was at work. 17 pages and counting?!

You can quite literally step of the platform the second that counter goes above 48, i.e. before going in-instance. If sniping got more common, that is indeed what would happen. And choosing to not deal with RNG is very much not griefing or reportable.