7.2 MSQ opinions (spoiler obviously)

Maybe it would help if the brains of the operation were studying the thing to figure out how it works, rather than us hauling it around like an emergency ham-n-cheese sammich.

I like that the scions have been backgrounded in ways that make sense for their characters. This allows them to be present to summarize background information, instead of the WoL needing to run around town and asking three citizens to complete a survey. It also frees up dramatic space for new characters to fill - Sphene for 7.2, Galool Ja and Koana for 7.1, Wuk Lamat for 7.0.

However, Krile and Graha felt more present than necessary in the early quests of 7.2 simply so they could serve as trust NPCs. The shallowness of this mechanical justification for their presence is emphasised by how little relevance they have to ongoing events. I like all the scions but I feel it would have been more appropriate to background Krile and Graha like what was done to Yshtola and Alissae, and instead allow Shale and Geode to join us as trust NPCs (great voice acting got Shale this patch btw). Foreground Graha and Krile when the material warrants their presence as major characters and when they can be done justice.

To my delight, 7.2 continued the understanding of elevated stakes that was featured all throughout 7.0 - the narrative stakes here are never "can disaster be averted" but rather "at what cost will these characters survive this trauma". The question of whether we will save the day is no longer interesting enough to keep on the table.

The Rite of Succession centered on Wuk Lamat's necessary character growth to become someone who can lead; the role she took uniquely prevented her from saving others in the Alexandria section of 7.0 from their self-appointed fates. In 7.1 we saw Koana and Gulool Ja both question the nature of their origins, for better or worse. And now we see Sphene struggling against walking the same path as her Endless counterpart. Will she resist the temptation of utopia as the consolation to her people's suffering? At what cost will Wuk Lamat prioritize the happiness of her own people, if it comes at the expense of others? I hope we see these two characters clash when it becomes evident that their similar ideals may lead to irreconcilable differences.

Calyx is an awful villain. I know he's centuries old, but the whole "kid genius" vibe is one of my least favorite tropes in any media. "I'm super serious and only think about science, so much that I'm apparently incapable of being without my constant data readouts." It's just old. I can already see him having his breakdown moment where he gets redeemed and we're all friends because SE clearly loves characters like this. Bonus points if he gets a fake-out death that lasts all of one patch before he's shoehorned back in.

Fake Sphene exists to be coy and make poses at the party, which had a shelf-life of about 3 seconds before becoming annoying.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

Calyx is an awful villain. I know he's centuries old, but the whole "kid genius" vibe is one of my least favorite tropes in any media. "I'm super serious and only think about science, so much that I'm apparently incapable of being without my constant data readouts." It's just old. I can already see him having his breakdown moment where he gets redeemed and we're all friends because SE clearly loves characters like this. Bonus points if he gets a fake-out death that lasts all of one patch before he's shoehorned back in.

Fake Sphene exists to be coy and make poses at the party, which had a shelf-life of about 3 seconds before becoming annoying.

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And we have the good "kid genius" in the 8-man raid story. I didn't need it on both ends lol.

I don't really dislike the 7.0 story as much as (apparently) everyone else, but I did hate that for 7.1 they went back to their tired old "screw around for 95% of it, then end with a cliffhanger" formula. This was a big improvement on that for starting right with Sphene and having everything tie directly to the main plot. Like most people, I also quite like Sphene, and the sections where you went around Solution 9 with her actually felt meaningful rather than like filler.

The attempt to just take us out in one huge strike was a pretty good change of pace, but I also don't really care about Calyx as a villain. Anyone is better than Zenos, but emotionless science kid is, like, second to the bottom of the barrel for me. All his animations with the stylus, tablet, and floating info screens are so hokey.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

Calyx is an awful villain. I know he's centuries old, but the whole "kid genius" vibe is one of my least favorite tropes in any media.

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I swear the ppl doing the writing just sit around watching anime and eating all day with all the tired anime tropes and that weird food fetish that is leaking into every aspect of every narrative. I still say that no one behind the keyboards these days would survivie a high school level intro to writing course. It all just reaks of bad anime/food fanfic.

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Originally Posted by smashBG

Do we know what the production timeline for patch content is like? Something that struck me is how ambiguously Sphene is written; there are plenty of reasons for her both to stay and pick up Endless Sphene's mantle, and to leave so she can protect her people indirectly with the Scions. It has me wondering if SE wanted to get fan feedback before deciding whether she joins the cast or not.

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The plot is planned and written out for most of the expansion long before production. They might make some tweaks, but they won't radically change the story beats based on feedback until several patches have passed.

This is because the scenario has to be written before they give stuff to the art designers, the battle designers, Souken and the music teams, etc. I know Yoshi P won't let them start working on the patch content until the base expansion is released, which is why 7.1 was relatively thin in terms of content, but the actual story up through 7.3 was planned out, because the scenario writers are Step 1 in a long development process.

(Hell, the writing team is already probably brainstorming ideas for 8.0, since they'll use patch 7.4 and 7.5 to introduce some of the topics/areas/ideas we will see in the 8.0 expansion.)

That said, Sphene probably was left open ended to some extent. Much like we loved G'raha Tia and they found a way to make him stick around, they will undoubtedly find ways to use her in the future, whether she stays with the Scions or remains the leader of the Alexandrians.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

The plot is planned and written out for most of the expansion long before production. They might make some tweaks, but they won't radically change the story beats based on feedback until several patches have passed.

This is because the scenario has to be written before they give stuff to the art designers, the battle designers, Souken and the music teams, etc. I know Yoshi P won't let them start working on the patch content until the base expansion is released, which is why 7.1 was relatively thin in terms of content, but the actual story up through 7.3 was planned out, because the scenario writers are Step 1 in a long development process.

(Hell, the writing team is already probably brainstorming ideas for 8.0, since they'll use patch 7.4 and 7.5 to introduce some of the topics/areas/ideas we will see in the 8.0 expansion.)

That said, Sphene probably was left open ended to some extent. Much like we loved G'raha Tia and they found a way to make him stick around, they will undoubtedly find ways to use her in the future, whether she stays with the Scions or remains the leader of the Alexandrians.

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Depends. Ishikawa said that she already had created 2 scenarios for 5.3; one where graha survive (basically what we got) and one where he doesn't. Then she waited to see fans feedback for him before deciding his fate.

But I do agree with you that they likely will leave her ending open. Maybe she won't join the scion right away or even in 8.0. Maybe we recruit her for 9.0 when we eventually go shard hopping (as I predict 8.0 will be meracydia).

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

I swear the ppl doing the writing just sit around watching anime and eating all day with all the tired anime tropes and that weird food fetish that is leaking into every aspect of every narrative. I still say that no one behind the keyboards these days would survivie a high school level intro to writing course. It all just reaks of bad anime/food fanfic.

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I swear, idk what's the obsession with foods lately in ff14. Like, I get it, you want to show some nice looking food or the engine physics for liquid, but can't that be done in side quest? It's always the same scene anyway when character gets introduced to a food, took a bite, then have sparkly eye reaction because apparently it's so good.
Either that or spicy food joke.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

I swear, idk what's the obsession with foods lately in ff14. Like, I get it, you want to show some nice looking food or the engine physics for liquid, but can't that be done in side quest? It's always the same scene anyway when character gets introduced to a food, took a bite, then have sparkly eye reaction because apparently it's so good.
Either that or spicy food joke.

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There's a lot of potential for cash shop emotes stemming from food.

Anyone fancy a fried egg?

Honestly is more of the same, one of the main problems with DT (besides characters) is the fact that is a re-hash of the last two expansions in terms of "narrative" that also breaks XIV own worldbuilding, remember in ARR-HW it got hammered into our heads that when shards began to "merge" is a really bad thing? But in DT is all good we have the pseudo-Alexandria shard still "attached" to us bcs we need to "understand" and learn from them according to Wuk Lamat, which it's nonsense.

One thing i'll give to 7.2 is that Sphene feels like a real character and she made the """story""" kinda engaging but that's pretty much it. I really don't care about Calyx and his glorious EVOLUTION, because we seen this before with the Omicrons, the OA, and so on. Honestly the most enjoy i had with this patch (expansion in general) is the Arcadion. It has a good storyline that actually tries to emulate a WWE PPV and they done a really good job.

I've been so negative about 7.0, I ought to post my positive impression now, too:

I liked this one a lot actually, and after having been very critical of 7.0 and 7.1, and indecisive on if I should hope for the team's ability to course-correct one more time or just cut my losses and accept that my game had ended with Endwalker and was gone now, I was seriously surprised. I barely minded that I was too busy to play until the weekend after patch day, and while I'd retained some idle curiosity what they'd do now, I mostly expected to skim through and then unsubscribe after the last chance had failed, or a middle ground of "Well, this is slightly better, maybe one more patch..." - but no, this was in many ways a story for me again. There were so many aspects big and small that showed they had listened to those of us who had the same complaints I had, and most importantly, wrote a story I could actually enjoy.
I don't think we'll ever know what happened in the writer's room, for 7.0 or for 7.2, but for all intents and purposes it feels to me like they let the talented writers out of some mysterious confinement and let them write.

I felt like my character was a part of the story again. Things actually mattered. It was focused on the city's problems. We were not dropping everything to save the rroneek. (Sincerely, thank you.) Real Sphene is lovely and actually credible and endearing as a character. She's also distinctly our friend and confides in us, and the battles are our shared problem with nobody barging in.
And yes, less Wuk Lamat. It was such a relief to get breathing room from her and have her out of the spotlight most of the time. She's not the one problem with DT's writing, but the way she was handled was an issue and part of the whole. I also appreciated the distinction that while Endless Sphene was her social connection, new Sphene is ours, and they're treated as different characters essentially.

The people of Solution Nine have multifaceted and differing stances on the regulators and Evil Sphene's doomsday cult; that was my first big surprise in the patch after the ending of 7.1.
We get a terrorist plot instead of wholesome shenanigans with tribes, I mean Allied Societies that can do no wrong and must never have flaws. Actual stakes, actual events.
During the terrorist plot, our character is shown in a cutscene with their equipped weapon actively doing some fighting! That both looked very cool and was amusing in a way as a blatant response to the reception of 7.0's infamous throne room scene. Proof that they can listen and actually implement things. It's just a second or two, but it made a big difference to me as a signal.

The Scions are waking up from their cryosleep and sound like themselves again. Still a bit groggy and finding their bearings maybe, but we're getting there. I know opinions on their continued presence are divided, but as someone who enjoys them and wants to keep them around, just as themselves, not cardboard cutouts, this was good for me. G'raha had some good lines and got to be thoughtful again and communicate with us, you know, actually asking questions and having us answer, manually with choices in phrasing (we'll ignore that the outcome is the same, it's how it's always been), and shows concern for us as a person. Alisaie gets to show some spirit, and if it's just yelling over the phone. It's a signal that someone remembered who she was. Krile needed a bigger role but got to be the scientist again, and that's a step up from before too.
We got to actually call our people and talk to them one-on-one.
When we were out in the field and things got bad, our people called us. (And not Wuk Lamat to relay information to us.)
When talking to NPCs optionally during quests, they had real lines to say that showed some personality or insight that their specific character would have, instead of 7.0's style of "I can't believe [the thing that just happened, happened]" or "We should [complete the quest objective]" (or "Where is Wuk Lamat?").

These are all small things, but after DT's disaster, they matter to me greatly.

Also? Calyx is immensely anime but I'm enjoying him. He's somewhat fresh compared to DT so far, he's entertaining, and I want to be entertained for once.

After 7.0 being compared to SB, I said I wanted a rescue à la SB's patch stories. When an evil Sphene and a possibly nice Sphene got added in 7.1, I expected a retread of the Tsuyu story in some broad elements. Real Sphene has already shown herself as her own character, who can gladly stay around for longer, but I still see the parallels, not that that's a bad thing. If Calyx is the Asahi in this scenario, I won't mind either because I love Asahi as a character. I don't know where they're taking this, and I suspect they don't know yet either and are testing for reactions first, but for now I feel like I got my game back, earlier than expected. The remaining wrinkles can be ironed out as we go along.

All I'm saying is, the sooner we stop pretending that these "endless" have feelings or need to be emphatized with, the better. They aren't real people. I REALLY REAAAAALLY hope they don't pull out a lame "feel sorry for Calyx" plotline before we kill him. Just let him be the single-minded drone he is and let us shut him down.

And no, this is nothing even CLOSE to what the Ascians were doing and what Emett felt like. Actual real souls vs memory amalgamation thingamajigs.

And for Twelve's sake, kick Wuk Lamat out of the scenes already. She doesn't need to be here, doesn't she have a nation to rule? Sure is meddling a lot for someone who said she isn't meddling!

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

All I'm saying is, the sooner we stop pretending that these "endless" have feelings or need to be emphatized with, the better. They aren't real people. I REALLY REAAAAALLY hope they don't pull out a lame "feel sorry for Calyx" plotline before we kill him. Just let him be the single-minded drone he is and let us shut him down.

And no, this is nothing even CLOSE to what the Ascians were doing and what Emett felt like. Actual real souls vs memory amalgamation thingamajigs.

And for Twelve's sake, kick Wuk Lamat out of the scenes already. She doesn't need to be here, doesn't she have a nation to rule? Sure is meddling a lot for someone who said she isn't meddling!

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Very much agreed, and I would very much like an option, "Yes, I am in fact completely okay with shutting down ChatGPT."

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

I REALLY REAAAAALLY hope they don't pull out a lame "feel sorry for Calyx" plotline before we kill him.

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Too bad that is *exactly* what they're going to do.

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Originally Posted by Darnuss

Honestly is more of the same, one of the main problems with DT (besides characters) is the fact that is a re-hash of the last two expansions in terms of "narrative" that also breaks XIV own worldbuilding, remember in ARR-HW it got hammered into our heads that when shards began to "merge" is a really bad thing? But in DT is all good we have the pseudo-Alexandria shard still "attached" to us bcs we need to "understand" and learn from them according to Wuk Lamat, which it's nonsense.

One thing i'll give to 7.2 is that Sphene feels like a real character and she made the """story""" kinda engaging but that's pretty much it. I really don't care about Calyx and his glorious EVOLUTION, because we seen this before with the Omicrons, the OA, and so on. Honestly the most enjoy i had with this patch (expansion in general) is the Arcadion. It has a good storyline that actually tries to emulate a WWE PPV and they done a really good job.

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Honestly I think that’s about the only thing that base 7.0 did right. The fusion of the fragment of the 9th that is the everkeep was an enormous and dangerous upheaval for both sides and completely messed up many people living in yassoulani at the time. The bulk of the 9th is still sitting there untouched as you can see outside the barrier after shutting off living memory

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Originally Posted by Kozh

I swear, idk what's the obsession with foods lately in ff14. Like, I get it, you want to show some nice looking food or the engine physics for liquid, but can't that be done in side quest? It's always the same scene anyway when character gets introduced to a food, took a bite, then have sparkly eye reaction because apparently it's so good.
Either that or spicy food joke.

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As much as I find "constantly watch someone or yourself eat" a very stupid take on things - it's still miles better then the "turn screen blank and play silly munching sounds" trope they used before (e.g. SB physical ranged job quests).

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Originally Posted by Gwenkatsu

As much as I find "constantly watch someone or yourself eat" a very stupid take on things - it's still miles better then the "turn screen blank and play silly munching sounds" trope they used before (e.g. SB physical ranged job quests).

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Oh that was awful. Hearing someone eat messily is unpleasant under any circumstances, but to deal with it after every quest was just idiotic.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Oh that was awful. Hearing someone eat messily is unpleasant under any circumstances, but to deal with it after every quest was just idiotic.

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Seems I'm not the only one to remember this quest line :D

I love engaging with a game's lore, reading quests and watching cutscenes. But after years of playing FF14, I identified three topics which are an immediate nope on my side:

• Anything Hildibrand related
• Anything regarding the company of heroes morons
• Screen turning black and munching noises

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Originally Posted by Paintedtarget

You summed up all of my views on the bad. Wuk is a damaged character that cannot be salvaged for me at this point. I hit space bar or skip cutscenes when she is in the game which is something I have not done since ARR started. I really hope we move on from that character or they drop her out of the MSQ as soon as possible.

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You are correct, Wuk is burned, she must be gone, most of the player base link her directly to the horrible add-on that dawntrail is!
I even suspect that Wuk is a self insert of one of the developers who want to be the one character that is superior to the warrior of light! She steals all the attention of the warrior of light, even to the point where she steal our boss fight. As example for what i expect of the warrior of light you should watch this https://youtu.be/XXsmvmlBiOA that is a story of the last patch of Wuthering Waves. You are the hero, you are the one who get it done. A thing Square Enix never had done. We are only be called the warrior of light, but in most cases we never be the bad ass god killing hero!

And they should really really stop give us even less than a visual novel, in a visual novel we have choices and bad endings. But in this game we are have not even a choice and now they even cut us out of the story. We are only the mentor, the obi-wan of luke or should i say the WoL of WuK? The story must be around US the players protagonist, the WoL, everything must be the story of the WoL not the scions, they are only the addition to the WoL.

No thank you, don't want the story to try to position WoL at the center. Blank slate silent protagonists are not suited to that purpose.

Another negative I wish to add.

STOP

USING

MACHINATIONS!

I am SO over hearing that piece of crap excuse for music in cutscenes etc! I mean, I don't understand why they're using such an outdated music track so late into the game. It never really suits the scene or the story and there are FAR better options (though no music at all would be in improvement over Machinations).

I generally mute my speakers or skip cutscenes when that catastrophically boring excuse for music plays anyway but seriously - why are they still using it?!

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Originally Posted by Exmo

No thank you, don't want the story to try to position WoL at the center. Blank slate silent protagonists are not suited to that purpose.

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Did you play the same game as i am? From ARR to Endwalker its the story of the Warrior of Light, from the build up in ARR to HW, to the hero story who rescue two nations from the garlean empire, to shadowbringers where you rescue yourself! Than you are the one who walks to the end, to the end where you kill a god, the personification of despair, who want to end every life in the known and unknown universe! And than you go to be the mentor of the even more awesome wuk lamat. Dawntrail was the only part of the story, that was not yours! The problem is not the story that was, no the story of dawntrail with the invading wuk lamat.

Also why do you have so many blank slates in anime? From Sword Arts Online Kirito to Solo Levelings Sung Jin-Woo? Because you need a blank slate for insert the viewer in that characters. In a movie you need to do the choices for the viewer and square enix done exactly this. While they should give us option where we as the silent protagonist choose, even if all the choices in the end lead to the same outcome, this is how you tell a good story and give the player aka viewer the choice of inserting themself in such a character. We want to experience the role of the protagonist! And that is why a silent protagonist is a good thing! Yes it would be nice to have that choices also with a voice. But it is not needed, because when you have choices, to be cocky or barsch or direct or smart or something else. We experience the story on our own way. But square enix do not deliver us that!

So sorry to say, but your arguments are weak, we have that WoL centric story all the time, but SE is only to incompetent to deliver it to us. And these incompetence peaked now in dawntrail! In Shadowbringers and Endwalker the incompetence was not that high, because the overall story was not that bad. But the railing of that story, where we are forced to a story path, was there every time! With some exceptions, when we had to chose like with zenos where we had at least the option to say "yes i want to be on your side, lets fight" but than zenos say "no no, that is not your way!"

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Another negative I wish to add.

STOP

USING

MACHINATIONS!

I am SO over hearing that piece of crap excuse for music in cutscenes etc! I mean, I don't understand why they're using such an outdated music track so late into the game. It never really suits the scene or the story and there are FAR better options (though no music at all would be in improvement over Machinations).

I generally mute my speakers or skip cutscenes when that catastrophically boring excuse for music plays anyway but seriously - why are they still using it?!

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Did you not see, that SE is a one trick pony?

• Every time they use the same music, from combat to imaginations, remix it and use it again.
• Story, its every time the same, in every add-on we beat the big evil and rescue the world. At least we do not team up with the the orcs and tauren every add-on!
• Combat, mostly every class is only a variation of the others. What is the difference between a bard and a dancer, some small changes and visuals.
• Dungeon, every time 2 trash packs, boss and again, every dungeon, very add-on!
• Bosses, every time a closed room with aoe bullet hell mechanic and since 7.2. in faster that you get migraine from it.
• NPCs, oh here we have Minfilia, than we get the other Minfillia, than we get the winged Minfilia and now we get the FF9 Minfilia and named her "Sphene". Its everytime the damsel in distress who can't safe herself and need us the Warrior of Light to get shit done. And i can't wait to see the new ascians, that stand behind the.. oh wait we get that in 7.2. and will get it later when behind that guy is a bigger enemy. I wonder what the 8.0 minifilia looks like.
• Enemies. We get Garlemald from 1.0 to Shadowbringers an what we get in Dawntrail? Garlemald from FF9?! With magitec, with a prince who want to be the strongest, with a person behind the price who has a higher motivations and what we get in 7.2. The same thing AGAIN! with sphene who was behind the prince, has now a guy behind her, who is the ff9 version of the guy in the chair out of stormblood who do exactly the SAME "evolve" thing.

Square Enix is a one trick pony... they reuse there old work, over and over and over and over and over and over and over.. oh sorry i have stroke from the new 7.2. raids.... to much flashy aoes with so much internal server lag....

I like machinations………because it’s the easiest indication that this is a skipable cutscene if you are someone who skips cutscenes

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I like machinations………because it’s the easiest indication that this is a skipable cutscene if you are someone who skips cutscenes

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Oh machinations is the theme of wuk lamat... now i get it... if i hear that or see her i can skip...

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Originally Posted by Sharindel

Did you play the same game as i am? From ARR to Endwalker its the story of the Warrior of Light, from the build up in ARR to HW, to the hero story who rescue two nations from the garlean empire, to shadowbringers where you rescue yourself! Than you are the one who walks to the end, to the end where you kill a god, the personification of despair, who want to end every life in the known and unknown universe! And than you go to be the mentor of the even more awesome wuk lamat. Dawntrail was the only part of the story, that was not yours! The problem is not the story that was, no the story of dawntrail with the invading wuk lamat.

Also why do you have so many blank slates in anime? From Sword Arts Online Kirito to Solo Levelings Sung Jin-Woo? Because you need a blank slate for insert the viewer in that characters. In a movie you need to do the choices for the viewer and square enix done exactly this. While they should give us option where we as the silent protagonist choose, even if all the choices in the end lead to the same outcome, this is how you tell a good story and give the player aka viewer the choice of inserting themself in such a character. We want to experience the role of the protagonist! And that is why a silent protagonist is a good thing! Yes it would be nice to have that choices also with a voice. But it is not needed, because when you have choices, to be cocky or barsch or direct or smart or something else. We experience the story on our own way. But square enix do not deliver us that!

So sorry to say, but your arguments are weak, we have that WoL centric story all the time, but SE is only to incompetent to deliver it to us. And these incompetence peaked now in dawntrail! In Shadowbringers and Endwalker the incompetence was not that high, because the overall story was not that bad. But the railing of that story, where we are forced to a story path, was there every time! With some exceptions, when we had to chose like with zenos where we had at least the option to say "yes i want to be on your side, lets fight" but than zenos say "no no, that is not your way!"

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You are confusing "the WoL did a thing" with "the story is about the WoL". None of the previous expansions centered the WoL at the center of the story.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

You are confusing "the WoL did a thing" with "the story is about the WoL". None of the previous expansions centered the WoL at the center of the story.

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You can make arguments for any of them but if ShB isn’t about the WOL then who the hell is it about

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You can make arguments for any of them but if ShB isn’t about the WOL then who the hell is it about

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Emet Selch and the Crystal Exarch primarily. Ryne, Ardbert and Elidibus secondarily.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You can make arguments for any of them but if ShB isn’t about the WOL then who the hell is it about

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It's about the warrior of darkness, duh.

Seriously though, the player character has always been the main character, hence y'know, you playing them. You're watching/experiencing the journey of the WoL 99% of the time. The primary narrative of every story in the game is filtered through your character, not someone else. The fact that other people have more backstory for why they do something is inconsequential. It'd be like suggesting that Martin is the main character of Oblivion because he's the most prominent NPC despite the entire rest of the massive game.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

It's about the warrior of darkness, duh.

Seriously though, the player character has always been the main character, hence y'know, you playing them. You're watching/experiencing the journey of the WoL 99% of the time. The primary narrative of every story in the game is filtered through your character, not someone else. The fact that other people have more backstory for why they do something is inconsequential. It'd be like suggesting that Martin is the main character of Oblivion because he's the most prominent NPC despite the entire rest of the massive game.

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You're describing a point of view character. That's not the same thing as a protagonist or main character (in terms of story focus).

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Originally Posted by Exmo

You're describing a point of view character. That's not the same thing as a protagonist or main character (in terms of story focus).

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Being a POV character doesn't exclude them from being the main character and in fact a lot of POV characters are considered the main characters of their respective tales. Pokemon's Red, Zelda's Link, as a few examples.

I know you think you're clever with the whole "Uhmn actually the WoL is not the main character" but by every sense of the definition, they are. Perhaps you are the one confusing what a protagonist is and what a main character is? Because if you look it up, you'll see the WoL is the definition of a main character. Protagonists and main characters are different after all (if we're going to be pedantic). Emet and G'raha are protagonists/antagonists, but they're not main characters.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

...

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Rude, so not interested in discussing this with you tbh.

All I'm saying is centering a story on a blank canvas silent character like the WoL because they are habitually a passive agent, do not engage in ideological dialogue, have very limited modes of expression, and can only feature limited growth of character to avoid infringing on player self-insertion. Please don't respond to this, cheers.

The conversation about WOL being main focus or not is quite interesting read.
I personally never felt I was the "main center of focus" because everyone except the WOL got the answers to the question.
WOL however, has to "GATHER" information, in order for the other NPC to "GET" the information (see what I did there!)
Sometimes WOL throws their two cents of "Ah, perhaps it's this..."
It's ALWAYS been like that. WOL is there to listen, nod in silence.
Emet Selch described in the story the WOL very very well few times (I forgot the exact quotes). That said, it never bothered me. However, what bothered me for the first time was WOL really going along wih /anything/ and /everything/ and lost a huge part of personality. Instead of us discussing with the Scions/others what we may do, an NPC appearing out of the sky who is known to one NPC means we instantly agree.

7.2 was... breath of fresh air. I don't think it had anything for me to do with Wuk Lamat because I play Japanese language and so also Japanese voices. Wuk Lamat's voice actress is my favourite Leporitt (Mapping Way) so I love her voice a lot and her enthusiasm (I only dislike her impatience and immaturity like most others). To me I did not look forward to this "new introduced character" because I thought it had something to do with what they spoiled already "the new people in the arts". What I did not know however, was that Sphene was also returning as her genuine self. And the most shocking was, I really like her more than I thought (I am really, really, really not a fan of Sphene and that is putting it feather lightly) what I dislike about her is who she is like as a person. "I am fine, let's do it this way, and everything is okay"... "No everything is not okay everything is about me and I feel left out wah wah" I don't like these type of girls and she annoys me (it is kind of a personality type known in Japan but I cannot find a better way to explain it) I hope I warm up more to her. But I am very envious how she is pretty and I wish I can have a character with her body type/face (and the new guy) also her wearing hoodie with hair and hair I always wanted made me feel sad because it will become another mogstation item 5 years from now on if lucky. But that is me being petty.

What I do complain are the villains in the Dawntrail story:
- They are not intimidating
- They are childlike
- Immature and their goals are as shallow as child-story books
- The feeling of "we are in real danger" or "danger is ahead" is severely lacking.
I feel like I need to just smack that boy out of his office chair
But before we are able he will press the "Oh sh&* button" and summons a Monster
- I cannot help but wonder if he turns out to become a 'good guy'
Trying for another "emotional bait" only for them to ditch the character like Zero and Golbez, Rynn and Reina.

I feel I cannot get attached to any character anymore after what they did with Zero.

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Originally Posted by Akamadoshi

- I cannot help but wonder if he turns out to become a 'good guy'
Trying for another "emotional bait" only for them to ditch the character like Zero and Golbez, Rynn and Reina..

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I do believe Calyx is being painted to be quite irredeemable as a villain, which THANK GODS, I was tired of this whole trope of 'sad, misunderstood villain' that Shadowbringers shoved in our throats since.
His presentation has been brief, and truth be told, all the characters that were villains had very vain and shallow motivations without being intimidating, literally, the only villain that carried an intimidating vibe was Zenos. Not even Emet was, and yes, Emet reasoning was shallow and very ignorant. People just love him because they made a simple trope right with an emotional gut punch that worked for some.

What I take from Calyx is that he is no longer capable of processing the will of mankind's survival and acceptance of a flawed nature of self and mortality. He is desensitized from the basic concepts of what it means to be a human at that point, even more so for living over 400 years, pulling all the strings behind all the events within Alexandria. His knowledge matching things that only our group of heroes know is perhaps the most interesting. The principle between shards, how each reflection is named, and even a degree of understanding of the Azem's Crystal. It has potential to become something interesting, and more of a villain that you debate morals/knowledge, not measure might. What comes from it, we have yet to see.

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Originally Posted by OMGJesuis66

Not even Emet was, and yes, Emet reasoning was shallow and very ignorant.

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How is his reasoning shallow and ignorant?

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Originally Posted by Kozh

How is his reasoning shallow and ignorant?

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Inter-planetary genocide in an attempt to revive a bunch of people while dismissing completely what is to be alive, what makes one alive, and understanding that their time has passed is quite shallow and ignorant to me. Even more, he spoke about how he tried and even had kids. That was the moment that my complete suspension of disbelief crashed down, and I could not see him past a bland villain. It just could not make any sense that he wasn't at the slightest affected by his life experiences, and wanted to pursue only the return of a very bland society, twisted and horrifying, settled in their own ways without noticing the ignorance path they have taken (which was hilarious given they were presented as scholars and always evolving under friendly debate of perspectives), at the cost of billions of lives? Yeah, no. It felt too much out there for me to relate, felt silly at every step. But it will devolve into another argument that's not really the point here.

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Originally Posted by OMGJesuis66

Inter-planetary genocide in an attempt to revive a bunch of people while dismissing completely what is to be alive, what makes one alive, and understanding that their time has passed is quite shallow and ignorant to me. Even more, he spoke about how he tried and even had kids. That was the moment that my complete suspension of disbelief crashed down, and I could not see him past a bland villain. It just could not make any sense that he wasn't at the slightest affected by his life experiences, and wanted to pursue only the return of a very bland society, twisted and horrifying, settled in their own ways without noticing the ignorance path they have taken (which was hilarious given they were presented as scholars and always evolving under friendly debate of perspectives), at the cost of billions of lives? Yeah, no. It felt too much out there for me to relate, felt silly at every step. But it will devolve into another argument that's not really the point here.

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Didn't he claim a rationale that he didn't regard sundered beings as truly alive, thus wiping them out en masse was no biggie?

I'd agree it's a questionable argument, but if you reject it, you're also compelled to become a vegan.

Emet’s selch I think less represents veganism or the old “destroying an ant hill is tantamount to ant genocide” and more wilful dehumanisation of people you see less than yourself in pursuit of a goal; ie detachment of problematic consequences

16 does this as well with the bearer system where the people justify any treatment of bearers by designating them as less than human even though nobody can actually justify or point to why a bearer is less than a human. It’s a cruel detachment to attain a goal even though deep down you know it’s bullshit

Emet selch isn’t stupid enough to believe his own bullshit about being less than human especially considering that the other unsundered don’t even agree with him (well at least eldibus considers the aetherical balance of the source to revolve around the sundered which is close enough to saying “they are worth something”), it just reads as self justification for cruel detachment in service of a goal. Venat does the same thing when she accepts the loss of 7.5 shards to bet on the WOL to defeat meteion

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Didn't he claim a rationale that he didn't regard sundered beings as truly alive, thus wiping them out en masse was no biggie?

I'd agree it's a questionable argument, but if you reject it, you're also compelled to become a vegan.

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Yep. It is bullshit argument.
And somehow the game wanted me to feel sorry for the guy. And in subsequent patches, the game kept trying to force me take options as if my WoL had the promise to keep for him, as if the fight was tragic and Emet misunderstood.

It really did not sit well with me, the character over his whole time with you build 0 empathy, spin a lot of bullshit at the end, and I should shed tears for him for the next 5 patches?

Stg, Bozja had a better storytelling and characters than MSQ. But yeah, I know, unpopular opinion, throw your stones.