And in FF14, you can pay 30$ over two month trying to get your savage BiS. Or you can pay PF around a hundred million to get everything in one week. Or employ RMT service if you want to spend real money.Quote:
Originally Posted by VerdeLuck
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10-30-2024, 03:38 AMRaven2014
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10-30-2024, 04:01 AMVoidmageGenshin I pull a character, get them leveled up and ascended to maximum in about 3 hours because I naturally farm the resources by just doing my dailies. If I don’t have them I just do my dailies anyway and explore the world to get the gathering resources. Boss drops I just farm them about 5x a day but I could go far more because I have so much resources to replenish my daily resin limit anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi
Furina took me about a week to get to maximum because her materials where introduced in the same new map.
Then I do the domains to get artifacts if I don’t have them anyway. Weapons I have so many I just take them from another character if I don’t even have copies lying around.
Not the perfect ones? Eh doesn’t matter because the game is easy anyway.
You get all you need by doing dailies and events and if you explore the world.
Because I don’t pull for every character I have still about 300 pulls, more money ingame than I ever need and so much upgrade materials I could level up some characters twice.
Honestly with all respect I don’t think you completely know what you are talking about.
You saw a bad gacha system and push it on every other one without being neutral.
It’s the same as saying every MMO is the same hardcore grind it was so many years ago.
If you think the grind in Genshin or Honkai is anywhere near for example fate go then I don’t know what to say.
There is a reason why gachas are so successful for f2p players and low spenders because there are those that are NOT a huge grind.
Wish I could agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven2014
That’s what annoys me the most. Saying Gacha is bad while defending MMOs.
Both are systems on a scummy principle and both have bad sheep and good quality games that are completely fair.
You can take the expansive shortcut in both types of games but it’s not needed in either of them. -
10-30-2024, 04:02 AMVerdeLuckgetting the character is the end of the time limited grind yes, everything else can be done as fast or as slow as you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi
time limited weapons are not needed and really just the limited characters matter in terms of getting them right now
the grind whales skip is they can pay 2,000 dollars to get 6 copies of the character and limited weapon to roll over content right now. -
10-30-2024, 04:23 AMkiotsukete
Maintaining a full time sub to FF14 is absolutely not worth it with the current 4.5 month patch cycle. Since you can’t sub for just half a month, the cost per major patch if you stay subbed the whole time is: 5 months x USD $12.99/$14.99 = $64.95/$74.95. Which is the full price of a AAA game.
Is each major patch worth the price of a AAA game? Seems like lots of FF14 players are saying no. So only subbing for 1-2 months when a major patch drops is the only decision that makes financial sense for most players. -
10-30-2024, 04:51 AMRaven2014A common trend among these posters seem either they talk out ignorance, or prejudice, or both. It's like if you ask an average FF14 player how much does the game cost or how grinding it is ... the most common answer would probably 15$ a month on average, maybe 20-30 extra occasionally for skin/fantasia, grind is probably 2-3 months for BiS, a month of two for an EX mount .etc. Instead, someone with an agenda gonna say: oh it will take YEARS for you to get the best mount (tiger hunt), and you gonna spend hunred if not close to thousands of dollar to get everything in the game!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidmage
And that's exactly you see what happening here. These people take the biggest whale and try to frame it as the "average player experience", while the fact that the average gacha players don't really spend any difference than an MMO players.
Quote:
Wish I could agree more.
That’s what annoys me the most. Saying Gacha is bad while defending MMOs.
Both are systems on a scummy principle and both have bad sheep and good quality games that are completely fair.
You can take the expansive shortcut in both types of games but it’s not needed in either of them.
It's a perception things. People can spend 3k for a weekend at Hawaii they thought you're just living life. But when they hear you spend 3k for a weekend at Las Vegas, they think you probably have a gambling problem. And you can tell the people who think like that are the one who never had set foot to Las Vegas, and they won't believe you if you tell them 3k actually go a lot farther in Vegas than a place like Hawaii.
There is a reason why bias is often the biggest enemy of objective thinking. I play FF14 for 10 years now and I have not buy a single glamour items from the mogstore despite there is a lot of them I want, and despite there were a period where I was deeply in love with FF14. Simply because I find the idea of paying 20$ or more for an item that is NOT account bound is scummy. So for one, I find self control is not that big of a deal. And for two, between that and the house demolition things, I find it pretty moronic when people try to argue on behalf of FF14 on the ground of morality. -
10-30-2024, 05:12 AMVoidmageCompletely agree it’s prejudice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven2014
Honestly this whole conversation is stupid because no one asks for gacha in FF14.
What you, me and others advocate is to look at what those games do good and use it to make this game here better.
They wanted us to play other games, we did and now people bring ideas from those games.
The whole gaming industry is crashing right now regarding the big developers like Ubisoft or BioWare and if SE doesn’t pull the thumbs out of their butt regarding FF14 and other titles they will follow sooner or later. Maybe not with Dawntrail but finally.
Games like Genshin or Fate are not liked because of gacha but because of story, gameplay, listening to feedback and pure customer satisfaction and I hate to see the good sides of those games disregarded just because someone has a hate for the system of them.
This is the console wars all over just in more stupid. -
10-30-2024, 05:15 AMSaidoshaYou're vagueposting me, but I'm gonna call you out on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidmage
Gachas may not handle duplicate character pulls the same way, but the reality is many provide significant incentive to their acquisition through stats and additional abilities. For some it's as simple as one extra character per upgrade levels, often up to 5. Others employ a shard system that frequently translates to needing 6+ copies of a character due to escalating costs per upgrade level. A few go even further by wanting character combos at specific upgrade levels for further bonuses. Many of these games also have "challenging content" implicitly aimed toward whales with rankings and (the rich get richer kind of) rewards and the like where not having optimal parties and configurations makes it mathematically impossible to compete or even complete. This isn't fiction. This isn't hyperbole. You may have been convinced you're getting the same value per dollar, or maybe more, but as someone who played and complete RPGs before all this BS existed, I can't really stress enough that gacha gamers are not getting a superior experience. Not all subs are $5, either. For all the games I've tried, $10-15 is more the norm. You can't exactly refute some lock QoL features behind it, either.
Far as I'm concerned, Genshin is right up there with Dark Souls in distorting perceptions of video games and what makes them good. Go play Suikoden. 108 characters to recruit. Not all combat-oriented. Not all are great or get much story relevance... not unlike gacha. Regardless, it's proof that an RPG can expose a player to a wide cast of characters without relying on a slot machine for acquisition. Plus you're not waiting 3+ years for a completed story that may not even finish because oops NA/Global just wasn't profitable enough. And for every game I've tried where people say it's all doable with free story characters, you're always making the game harder for yourself by taking that route. Always. You're grinding longer, wiping more often, losing ways to counter mechanics, and generally just falling behind. That's a lesser experience.
Go play Another Eden, the unfortunate successor to Chrono Trigger, and only use main cast units sticking to base difficulty. Even the difference of power between old launch pulls and those today is a sweeping gulf of difference. You know what? This is another one of those games people have tried to argue is F2P Friendly because of the usual tired litany of copium catchphrases and self-inflicted blindness brought on by sunken cost fallacy (You, too, can have a max light Aldo running the same dungeon 2000 times over 300 days at the expense of all others!). Is it a bad game when you peel away all the deliberate gatekeeping and partitioning? No, and that's what makes it all the more infuriating because a good, standalone RPG could've existed instead.
Sometimes it's sad how that can and does apply to MMOs, too. Both styles get so caught up in their own trappings that the game itself suffers. -
10-30-2024, 05:45 AMVoidmageI played Suikoden 4 and 5 these are a really strange comparison tbh. The only thing they have in common are a massive amount of characters. Suikoden you need a guide to get all characters and unlock the best ending.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saidosha
In Genshin you have your main character and just pull for the characters you like or the meta if that interests you but you know what? You don’t need perfect C6 characters to solve the hardest content spiral abyss in that game and the rewards there are just normal ingame currency and a few more pulls.
And you don’t need any characters other than the free starters to get the best story experience.
Heck you can play the whole story without even pulling once because the story fights are made easier anyway.
Dark Souls also didn’t do anything of that sort. It just gave way to a new genre if we can even call it that but that is another discussion (it could also be that I misinterpret your words because I am not sure what exactly you mean here).
No one here says that gachas are a saint for the customers or that you can’t take shortcuts with money.
The original matter was that modern gachas have good things that ff14 could take as inspiration and those posts were anlmost outright denied because “no gacha in ff14” even though that was never the wish. People just started listing all the bad things of gachas in a broader light instead of actually asking WHAT those good things are. Why do we bring the story or the events as an example, why do we think the patch cycle is great in those games.
Instead it all devolved into explanations why gachas are the work of the devil and now here we are discussing back and forth about something that doesn’t even matter in this discussion.
The reason I replied to you was because you reviewed gachas in a broad term and threw all together when that is not the case and that is why I explained how it works in Genshin.
All I am saying is that it is plain wrong to deny good ideas just because they come from a gacha and that it is wrong to regard all gacha as the same. If Blizzard has good things I also think the devs should get inspiration there but I don’t play wow so I don’t know.
All I ask for is to look at gachas fair and neutral like with all games.
There are bad games and there are good ones.
Would I love Genshin as a full blown single player rpg with all character? Of course but times have changed and either I go with them and pick the few good games or all that is left will be indi games.
Gachas aren’t a perfect system but it is better then what the marked transforms into in my opinion. -
10-30-2024, 06:04 AMRaven2014And I gonna call you out for being intentionally misleading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saidosha
I'm playing Wuwa right now, lvl 70, all of my character except the MC is either a base or 1 dub max. I have cleared my enter quest log, I had beaten boss and challenge 20 level above mine, and I did so with 4* character using 4* weapons (not even 5* SSR or signature weapon). There is no content that is not accessible to me, there is no content I can't beat except the level cap that I'll eventually get to in another month. And before you comment on that, ask your self if someone start playing FF14 right now, how long it gonna take them to reach the highest level content, assuming they don't want to spend on skips? It's no difference here, I can drop the cash at be at max level already just one month in, but you know ... I think I prefer to take my time and play the game.
Some other games I played I also had done the math, 8 months to max out a character for F2P, whale can do it in a couple weeks with a few hundred dollar, and any amount of time in between depending on how you manage your resource. So what's the difference between a player with no dub/no special weapon and a fully kit out whale? I spend 2 min killing a boss, a whale can do that in 10 seconds ... and that's it. There is no other content a whale can do that I can't, and I'll be where that whale is in 8 months at most even if I don't spend a penny. Your claim about whale getting more reward in the sense of "the rich gets richer" is completely false. Because NO gacha game will "physically" reward whale more, because they will discourage them being a whale next time. The only thing Gacha games enrich Whale is their ego. That ranking system you're talking about, sure the top 5% is whale ... but what is the reward they get for being there as opposed to someone like me who sitting at 30-40%? They get a special chat bubble/picture frame that they have to fight to keep every week, so that whenever they make a post on the forum everyone else can realize they're in the presence of a whale.
That's it, at least that's the case of all the gacha games I'm playing. I don't know whether intentionally or not, you and some others are purposely wording your post in a way to imply whale players have some exlusive access to actual content while they really don't. In fact, I'll go farther and say that in all of the Gacha games I play, I can get literally EVERYTHING eventually if I stay around long enough without spending money. Can you say the samething about FF14? Like I said, I've been playing this game for 10 years and still own ZERO mogstation glam, and I can play for another 10 years and that still gonna be zero unless I fork out the extra cash ... soooo which model is exactly more F2P friendly here?
The rest of your post make no sense. Why are you bringing in Single Player game into this? We compare MMO and Gacha because they're both live service games. This is like trying to make a case an orange is bad because an apple taste better.Quote:
snip.
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10-30-2024, 07:15 AMSaidosha
I already explained why I brought up Suikoden. If collecting characters is your thing, it had been done before predatory monetization entered the chat. The further the comparison, some would be like N rarities, other would be your SSRs. Some might have been harder to get than others, like Clive on Suikoden 2, but it was always game play that got them. And that's a big part of my point: Gacha sacrifice game play. Kind of like of SE just putting things in the store sacrifices giving them an acquisition in-game, be it a quest, boss kill, achievement, or whatever. It's a continuation of getting the lesser experience. Mechanically, a lot of gacha are barely at the PS1 level of play.
Now, Wuthering Waves is a comparably new game. Assuming it doesn't go the way of shutdown, prestige content is inevitable. It's pretty much always a bad idea for a gacha to shoot that stuff out at launch because the whales aren't going to have their minnows and F2Pers to dominate over because they can't even access the stuff and get their happy feelgood brain juice. Passing rewards off as just border portraits is also being disingenuous, and perhaps more telling of your lack of genre exposure as a whole. Sometimes these rewards are the only source of replacements for dupe pull growth. Others it can be specialized upgrade components that minimize or even eliminate RNG. The old Pay-To-Win phrase didn't spring out of nowhere, even if you're doing your best to try and dilute it down to Pay-To-Progress-Faster. Not all are as hardcore (pseudo-)PVP, but they exist.
Again, I'm going to point back to Another Eden. If you're a new player starting today, you've missed out on 5+ years of dungeon keys. There's no catch up mechanic in this vein and more established players will forever be ahead. This same investment frequently leads into disconnect on the new player experience and what they should or shouldn't be capable of. Chant Scripts would be an example of the bottleneck. Drop rates are bad. You'll probably get 1 every 3 weeks. You need 5 to promote a 4* character to 5* alongside a character specific book (or multiples of them) that may be rare drops of their own. Not all characters are 5* capable. Some are stuck at 3* and are just pull wasters that add zero benefit to the game and weren't even worth using at launch. This is before getting into grasta, upgrade components, equipment materials, and so on where overlap is literally not guaranteed. A modern game where you can never be collectively on par with older players because your only crime was not starting sooner is dumb. I don't care if you think you have a solid main team or that what you do is easy. Someone else is going to have six teams and be better prepared for the future.
Going to this weird length of trying to compare the gacha experience to the MMOer is folly because you're trying to make it sound like everyone must take 8 months just to get fresh to current. Does it happen for the most extreme of casuals? Sure. I've played multiple MMOs, though, and most of the good ones tend to trivialize progress up until the current expansion or equivalent. It's not like going into Shadowbringers demands you do Ivalice and the Omega line weekly for months. But much like AE or other time gated gacha systems, there's no overcoming it once you're out of whatever freebie resources. Even if you're a scrub, the games inevitably tell you to go away until tomorrow, or worse, some specific day if they're one of those. If you want to argue a casual going at a snail's pace is wasting $120 for 8 months, I'm not really going to disagree, but I'm also not going to discount external factors that determine their schedule. Someone else could also go zero to current in a month. Would I encourage it? No. Is it healthy? Absolutely not. The artificial babysitting is at least absent until you hit endgame. The honeymoon phase of gacha, their releases, and how players get treated tends to last about a month before they're put on the drip. A little bonus currency or event here or there is hardly a replacement, as F2Ps tend to see one premium equivalent 10-pull a month. "Just wait 3 months spending nothing you get daily and maybe you'll get the character you want!" isn't a sales pitch. It's an alarm. You've had game play taken from you, but you happily ask for more of the same, and these companies will continue to do it as long as you let them. If going to indies it what it takes to get developers that respect the player, so be it. Entirely too many potential RPGs have been lost to the siren song of the live service model and I can't even blame the authors/coders/artists/musicians/testers/etc. for that. The industry's gone to great lengths to figure out how to hoodwink players and maximize cash extraction. I'm not even saying you can't have fun while it's happening, just that you could've had more fun in a less corporatized package. -
10-30-2024, 08:05 AMBabyYoda
In the end we are not asking FFXIV to have gatcha in it,
but we ask that 12$ monthly must be valuable like how gatcha games did it right -
10-30-2024, 08:12 AMRaven2014And you explanation made zero sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saidosha
Using the same logic, one could also argue Square already have 13 different main line Final Fantasy, they already know how to tell an epic story driven, having summon (or primal or whatever name you want to call it), they have been doing that for decade, so why do they need to create an MMO version like FF14 with a subscription model? I see you've been playing FF14 as long as I have, I don't know if you had played their other FF entries, and if you don't I'm sure plenty of people playing FF14 had played many of those SP Final Fantasy before. If you can figure out why people paying 15$/month to play FF14 while they also had played many SP fantasy game before, then maybe you figure out why I'm saying you're not making any sense.
I know we had repeated this point for ad nauseam, but I doubt they will ever want to address or acknowledge it. It distracted from the narrative they want to push (gacha game is evil!!) despite it's irrelevant to the point, and they know without that narrative they don't have an argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyYoda
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10-30-2024, 08:16 AMVoidmageI’ll be honest with you and I don’t mean it in a bad or rude way because I wished it was like that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saidosha
I have the feeling you want the old gaming times back when every game was a finished product and not life service.
Those times will not come back. The market changes and if things like Dragon Age are an indicator then everything will just get worse.
I think we fundamentally disagree on the topic of gacha because your whole text about how gacha sacrifice gameplay or that those games only have a short honeymoon phase are exactly not what is happening.
Fate go goes for years now stronger than ever, Genshin lives of the gameplay of overworld exploring and HSR has so many different game modes alone in events it is mind blowing.
I won’t try to change your mind.
Gachas are there and they will continue to exist. There will be bad ones but the industry learned that high quality ones bring in more and Myhoyo has become a global player in the video game industry as is china itself.
These games survive by accepting feedback and evolved to perfectly playable games that are in some parts better than established games.
Either games like FF14 learn to accept feedback and improve their quality like the top gachas or they will sink into obscurity in my opinion because more and more players will see that the other games give more for no to less money and sooner or later a gacha will exist that is the direct competition to the mmo’s. I would even bet right now players here are just waiting for an mmo that gives the old FF14 feeling in optics and play style (and catgirls probably).
One last thing on Suikoden.
Like I said. Getting all characters there is a pain and only done to get the best ending normally. Yes it was a big part of what made it popular but what is its status now? It is dead because the rest of the games was standard jrpg stuff and the characters themself did nothing really. So I don’t understand that comparison. I already played them so why should I do that again?
Collecting characters is not why I play gachas (only those who interest me) but because games like Genshin are just FUN.
That’s all I will say about that all.
Like I said I won’t try to change your mind nor will I defend the worst gacha practices.
But I will defend the good points of those games and stand by the fact that no you do not need to spend money to get all you need in them. -
10-30-2024, 08:26 AMKurenXIVDon't forget thats the minimum, thats not counting players with extra retainers (an extra $2 per month). Nor is it counting the money from MogStation, merchandise, fanfests (yes they turn a profit as per SE) and soundtrack sales.Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyYoda
(fully agreeing with your point, just driving home how its not even like the monthly sub fee is their only source of income for the game) -
10-30-2024, 08:47 AMSaidosha
Or some of us recognize "games as a service" for what they are (you'll own nothing and like it!), with both gacha and MMO pursuing that. I don't know where you're getting the idea I personally want gacha introduced into XIV. Rather, we're pointing out elements are shared that aren't player-minded. Or even things that used to exist, but no longer do or have been minimized in priority of the service model.
Either way, why they opted to make XI and XIV MMOs is simple: Money. The devs onboard might want to make the best game possible, but what makes a good MMO and a good RPG, perhaps with multiplayer elements, is going to have conflicts. Time spent is largely going to be the difference between the two. MMOs and gacha will try to sell the platitude that development takes time, so of course pay while the game is in progress. On the flip side, the traditionally offline experience is going to be one and done. If it's popular, maybe it gets a sequel/expansion/DLC. Bonus points if there's replay value. We can at least liken this to an expansion drop in an MMO, but finality is almost something implicitly avoided. A 2-3 year dev cycle isn't unreasonable, so if you're the truly budget conscious sort, waiting for a release (or an eventual sale) is always going to get you more bang for your buck than the sub model. Side benefit, you could enjoy other games in the same 2-3 year span, as I'd argue the sorts of gamers that cling to a game only being good if it's their main game are doing themselves a disservice. I think this is where Yoshida's "Play other games!" line rubs some MMO purists the wrong way, but there's still merit in concern that development is maybe being a bit to slow, lazy, uninspired, underfunded, or whatever.
Social aspects play their part, too. Having a solid friend group can be a make or break experience, and just hanging with them could get you more life out of a game it normally would have. MMOs can take advantage of this, and some players even try to normalize it through the hardcore experience because constantly rolling with randos on the same content is just gonna leave you frustrated. Other games like Among Us or Lethal Company thrive more on player interaction than game play, but it doesn't mean they don't share their own commonalities with MMOs. If I'm playing a solo game, I don't have to worry about my party wiping. If I wipe, it's usually my fault. If it's a learning experience, then I learn. If it's a grind problem, I grind. If your AI party members are Goofy and Donald, you're screwed, but you know what you're getting into. I'm a firm believer that a solid MMO actually needs a solid single-player game foundation, and even XIV isn't quite there despite people who will gnash and claw about trusts or progression after a point. Ironically, the same "you don't need that" energy is shared between raiders or the gacha-defenders when it comes to dictating what other players should want of their experience. My take has always been that content should be developed to be seen. If the only reasons why it isn't are a social or time barriers, you've still got some developing to do. Futureproofing content is also an important aspect of game development and a lot of MMOs suffer from "dead raids" often for little more than genre purity reasons instead of contemplating content alternatives/solutions.
A little less executive meddling would do gaming good as a whole.
Edit: Personally, I encourage some to dig up Josh Strife Hayes' "Worst MMO Ever" series of videos, as he's also not shy about going into predatory monetization. A sassy British voice will probably do more than my text dumps ever could even if I'm saying a fair bit of the same things. -
10-30-2024, 09:00 AMRaven2014I gonna slightly disagree here. There is always room for both. What you said is exactly what drive the current AAA crisis. Baldur's Gate 3, Space Marine 2, Black Myth Wukong, Cyberbunk are all example of a complete and finish experience is still highly sought after. I also played a lot of minor AA tittles as well that's perfectly functional and profitable. The reason the market is crashing is despite the high demand for single player, instead of trying to meet that demand, companies want to chase the bigger reward in the over-saturated life service game. And that means if you want to compete in such an environment, you have to be the best or close to the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidmage
And that's what change with FF14 and I think Yoshi's tone in recent interview. 5-6 years ago he could say with confidence that it's okay for people to stop playing FF14, play other games. He was confidence people would always come back to FF14 because in those time, FF14 was the top dog of the live service space. Your alternative was either WoW, or some 2nd string F2P (like Guildwar) or the yearly Korean F2P slops that you gonna lose interest in 3 months. But these days, that space is heavily contested, not just in number but quality as well. That's why now you see him asking people to give him time, don't retire. No longer you see the "it's ok to quit the game and come back", because if people leave to play other games this time, they may find out there are actually better games out there.
It's not like we haven't been here before. Remember when WoW was at its peak? Everyone declared SP was death .. and for a time ... it was. But not because there wasn't interest, but because every companies decided to abandon it to chase the dream of becoming the next WoW, and that last for a almost a decade. In the end, how many "WoW 2" did we see? None. Not even WoW 2 itself can be the next WoW, what we did have is a mountain of coprse of all the WoW wanna be. Many companies collapse or downscale or bought up. Heck, Bioware was a prime example of this,their gamble with MMO is what led them to be acquire by EA. So what happened after the MMORPG collapse? Single Player came back with a vengeance ... until Overwatch and Fornight came out, and the chase to become the next Overwatch begin. And honestly, we're probably at the end of that cycle now with so many live service failing. Ironically in a way I find the Hoyoverse games like Genshin in this cycle is similar to what FF14 is in the previous cycle. Just like FF14 is one of the very few survivor and eventually flourish from the "next WoW race" by finding the right balance between casual and hardcore. Games like Genshin and FGO set up to be the winner of the "next Overwatch race", and it did so by finding the right balance between F2P and monetization.
Like I said, the people arguing against us will never want to acknowledge it, but pre-datory or not, games like Genshin success because it's simply a good product. I mentioned that even now, we still get a yearly dose of Korean MMO/F2P slops. Gacha or not, most people know a pile of shit not worth their money when they see one. If the majority of gamers is as gulliable as these people are making them out to be, I figure the top ten chart in the last decade would have been dominated by "predatory" Korean F2P. I tried the last Descandant for 2h, uninstall and never looked back. I play WuWa for almost a month before deciding dropping the first 5$, because the combat, the exploration, the writing were all a league above FF14. It was like someone who eat beef jerky his whole life bite into steak the first time. And none of this has anything to do with the "Gacha" system.
Like I said, I implore people to try it out for a month. Don't worry about money, don't even worry about the Gacha stable such as "pulling new character". Just play the game for the shake of exploration. After you finish exploring the first 2 zone in Wuwa, I'm pretty confident you will find it's extremely difficult to come back and stomach the open world "exploration" in FF14. See, I'm not asking FF14 to include Gacha, but I want the FF14 dev to go play Wuwa and see the fact that engaging, interesting, meaningful, and varied open world content is not a myth. And guess what, it's a new game, it's a new story. Each characters are given a roughly 3h story arch and they are all come out better than the you know who NPC that took up a whole 40hours in DT! -
10-30-2024, 09:54 AMHallarem
Lot of gambling money and preying on people wanting the newest "hot character" funding the success and development of the game.
It's a waifu collector with gambling mechanics, all of them are. Good gameplay sure, good story, sure.
Do yourself a favor, and never try these games, save your money. You hear these people talk about "F2P is the way" while dropping "When I dropped my first 5 dollars" in the next sentence.
It's the scummiest way to monetize and hooks you in. Protect your bank and be wary of harpoons, brothers and sisters. The Emperor protects.
Also the logic of comparing gacha lootbox mechanics gambling games of chance VS direct purchases where you know what you get is the wildest take I've ever heard.
If this is a troll, it's the best one I've seen in a while, it's totally devoid of logic and some under the bridge topsey turvey trickery.
Spending a hundred dollars abusing gambling addicts and young people who want waifus on pulls to get a character you like and materials you like to skip PURPOSEFULLY GRINDY MECHANICS vs buying a 5 dollar shirt on a cash shop, like buying a 5 dollar shirt in a real shop. I WONDER WHICH IS MORE PREDATORY, HMMMMMMM! I wonder which company makes more money for development HMMMMMMMMMMMM!
I'm not even arguing which game is better, that's up to opinion, but trying to gaslight the forums into thinking gambling is somehow on equal level to direct purchases is some wild copium whale-oil merchantry. -
10-30-2024, 01:20 PMRaven2014Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallarem
I'm curious ... for someone who has such a rigid definition and an obsessive fixation on gambling ... what are you doing playing FF14?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallarem
In case you don't see it, let me spell it out for you:
- You pay 12$-15$ a month for a chance of "four rolls a month" on the items you want in savage. If you're lucky, you can win it all in one month. Not that lucky, better do another sub. Still not getting it? Better do another sub and congratulation, after 3 subs you're now guarantee a full set of BiS even with the worst of luck because of the pity system. So 39$ to 45$ for a guarantee set of gears, less if you're lucky. And I hope you're lucky because what is that I hear? You want to BiS out a second job? Oh boy.
- You want a house? The most sought after feature of the game? Ready to participate this fun mechanic that we literally, officially call the housing LOTTERY!! Like ... how often do you visit the Housing subsection of the forum? Do you know how often you find someone who keeps an active sub just to get a house, they do nothing but to log in, place a bid, log out, log back in a few days later to collect the bid you lost, rise and repeat. Some people got lucky first try, but there are also some who've been doing it for months, years even. You look at them and they look miserable, defeated. But hey that's all fine right, after all because FF14 doesn't have the word "Gacha" in the name so I guess even a lottery system wouldn't be consider gambling.
- OHHH, before I forget, even that win come with a catch. Now you get hosed into the game that no matter how much you want to take a break or bored of it, even though you know in the next 3 months you won't have anything to play. But hey, keep that sub money running 'cause if you dare to take more than one month break, you can kiss that house goodbye.
So ... for once, again, what are you doing here playing this game, are you a hypocrite? And for two, it's one thing if we're discussing this on a general gaming forum. But like I said, to play FF14 and then trying to take a moral high ground attacking the practice of F2P/Gacha game to the extend you do ... like seriously, you don't detect even a hint of irony?
To be clear, I'm NOT complain about FF14 monetization policy or scheme, at least not in the same angle you're attack F2P game, it's a dime in a dozen. I'm just trying to point out that for your case, I don't think you're realizing your attack is just a classic example of the pot trying to call the kettle black. I said it before, I'm at a point where the question is more about what do I get in return and less about how much I give out. If I spend 5$ and getting ****, that's still a waste of money. But if I spend 15$ and receive a premium service, that would still be money well spent. And FF14 at this juncture feels like I'm paying 15$ AND getting ****, that's what I'm complaining about. I'm not complaing about the money they're trying to get out of me, I'm complaining about the return of my investment for that money. -
10-30-2024, 04:06 PMHallarem
Its not a "rigid definition" of gambling. Its THE definition. No matter how much you try to gaslight the sun is the moon, that wont change.
"Actually from the right angle, and they both are round" lol get outta here.
Real money rolls being AVAILABLE vs a regular mmo grind? You dont use actual money for rolling on gear in FFXiv. You cant compare a solid sub to that. Thats like saying netflix is gambling. Im not going after your precious games gameplay or story.
Im going after its real money gambling mechanics.
Cash shops are scummy, sub without proper content scummy. Gambling mechanics for real money scummiest. Not the same level, scummy but not the same level. -
10-30-2024, 05:49 PMVoidmageIt’s honestly pretty scummy to gatekeep others from forming their own opinion and the thing with the 5 dollars and f2p is completely out of context to make it sound different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallarem
If anything f2p are perfect to try out because they are free.
Those 5 bucks are also not regarding a pull or anything but for a “you just log in daily reward” kinda like a sub.
But anyway it’s fine to hate gacha and the more predatory ones but let people form their own opinions on them. At least by watching videos to see how they work or to see how they present story and such.
The emperor would also not care what game you play because he is busy with war… and Deus vulting space abominations. -
10-30-2024, 06:45 PMMoqi
Y'all have been arguing about something completely unrelated to the thread or FFXIV for 3 pages now...
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10-30-2024, 06:47 PMLarirawielYes. But the management as a whole seems to be completely disconnected from reality. You can see it when they introduced the NFT game. If they would live in reality then they would know, that you can safely replace the word "NFT" with "crypto scam" and you are always right. But no, they made the NFT game, which was a big flop. And they had Forspoken, which was a huge flop. And this is the reason why FF14 carries the whole company now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aco505
Cheers -
10-30-2024, 07:25 PMCalvinDescoles
i would really like to see any investement that proove my cash is going to be usefull IN FFXIV ... It is the first time in 10 years of this game i feel like it is not. having to wait 4/8/12 month to see a QoL or a job change is very disrepectful, not talking about the hat/hair situation with rhothgirls (since the same drama with bunbuns).
Yeah... for me this article hit right where it hurt. -
10-30-2024, 07:31 PMVeyaAkemiYou are severely misrepresenting how those games work for two core reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by VerdeLuck
1. You cannot endlessly grind gacha currency in those games, there is a limited, carefully measured amount of rolls available from free play within a time frame, there is no world where if you spent 720 hours per month playing where you could get enough currency to bridge that gap, they aren't paying to "skip the grind", they are outright buying the power their characters have, impossible to gain save for some extreme measures, like spending years not rolling for any characters so you can have one single hyper powered character, which, as I am about to explain in the point bellow, the game punishes you for doing due to the multiple character necessity.
2. A sizeable amount of the currency is gained in such trivial manner, from merely engaging with the game's basic systems, that it takes no real grind, in ZZZ you don't even need to play the game to earn your daily drop of currency, you complete all your dailies by briefly clicking a few micromanagement systems, the remainder comes from either log in events, or from... whatever they call it in any given game, I forget what Genshin and HSR calls it, but WuWa(not a Hoyo game but they did copy that damn homework so fair enough) calls it Tower of Adversity, and ZZZ calls it Shiyu Defense, it requires high level, properly geared characters to clear, and it awards a very decent chunk of currency, making properly geared characters much more pressing, not only that, but the way those systems work press you to level and gear up multiple characters, forcing you to engage with the aforementioned dogwater gearing system, and therefor making it much more time-limited than you made it sound, sure Domains will be available for as long as the servers are online... but the currency you could've earned if you had got good drops right away isn't.
Like I said several pages ago, I have played gachas for almost 10 years, and have been through most major titles in the genre, their systems are entirely indefensible, and exist to make the player's life as miserable as they can to push you to swiping that card, it's manipulative to the extreme. -
10-30-2024, 10:21 PMAt0msk
People really in here trying to equate gambling mechanics where you pay for a chance of getting something you want, within a lootbox that you don't know the contents of to a cash shop and sub where you know precisely what you're paying for and what content is involved. Whales are absolutely cooked and seething
Go play your game and keep mention of it off the forum you bunch of mind addled goobbues.
A little louder for those in the back with ears clogged with lootboxes; WHO ASKED. -
10-30-2024, 11:02 PMFlay_wind
You know, the readiness of people on these forums to belittle and insult those, whom they disagree with, have always been fascinating, really.
But hey, what do i know, i am not exactly playing anymore, and only have posting privileges due to free login campaign. -
10-30-2024, 11:11 PMVoidmageYes we will play our games and we will keep mentioning them because:Quote:
Originally Posted by At0msk
This thread is about how the sub right now isn’t enough for the content.
We bring other games in here as comparisons to that.
It doesn’t matter if you or someone else thinks those examples don’t count because it’s from something you don’t like. This is a forum and people are allowed to post.
This is my final post here you can then go and defend this perfect mmo again against all other evil games out there oh great knight.
FF14 sucks right now in many departments.
Some Gacha have a better story, better events and a better patch cycle and actually listen to feedback.
Edit:
Not the reason for the report but honestly you just make it worse right now.
Go ahead I don’t care anymore. -
10-30-2024, 11:24 PMAt0msk
Too bad they neither read nor care about a single mote of feedback coming from this forum or just about anywhere else. They'll fix healers any day now, right? RIGHT!!? Guys...? It's only been three expansions! They'll fix them soon!
Yeah, please look forward to it. Anyway I'm out. -
10-30-2024, 11:55 PMRaven2014Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallarem
This is like me telling people to check out Las Vegas to see what it has to offer, and you yelling from the top of your lung "NO GAMBLING IS BAD, DON'T GO TO VEGAS IT GONNA RUIN YOUR LIFE" while being entirely oblivious to the fact that Vegas has a lot more to offer outside of gambling, like the botanical garden, the restaurants, the national landmarks, the festival .etc. That's what I advise people to check out but your prejudice is so bad that you can not see Las Vegas for anything beyond the poker table.
Remember Guild War 2? I played that game at launch and played it for 2-3 years. By the time I was done, I had 10 characters and 4 Legendary weapon. The number of dollar I spent gabling on Black Lion Chest? 0. At the same times, I know some people spending hundred dollars a month on it in hoping to win big. I used to recommend that games to people because it was a good game, I just told them not to try to gamble on the Black Lion chest.
In most Gacha games, assuming you're playing nonstop a F2P players usually will catch up in 1 or 2 years depending on how long the game has been out. And I didn't take that statement for granted and hearsay. I've played enough that I'm passed the so call "honey moon" period, meaning now I have an exact number of in game currency I will get each patch. And most of them is enough to get whatever content coming out, guarantee, without spending a dollar. Is that gambling to you, 'cause that doesn't sound like gambling to me. Now can you pay to get more? Sure can, but like I said, you don't have to sit down the table just because you go to Vegas.
Am I saying I'm a F2P players? No. In fact I don't think any of us here had said we are F2P. We openly said we have no problem paying F2P games the same amount of money we put in FF14 because we realize we're getting a better value for our dollar. (So it's kinda funny a few post back you make it out as if we were lying).
Ah, so just another case of rule for thee not for me and I'm the one making the rule. Just like I expect, thanks for the confirmationQuote:
Cash shops are scummy, sub without proper content scummy. Gambling mechanics for real money scummiest. Not the same level, scummy but not the same level.
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10-31-2024, 02:08 AMHallaremSorry mah dude, but its not an opinion. It's a fact, game of chance = gambling. And gambling is by definition worse and more predatory than direct purchases, let alone aimed at a younger audience with low self-control with their money as they are vying for gacha waifus and power in a game thats designed to be slower for people who don't swipe. I can 100% admit that it might have better gameplay and story, easily. A lot of games have better story and gameplay than FFXIV, ESPECIALLY gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven2014
I'll even extend an olive branch and apologize for making this personal, I just feel very passionate about gambling mechanics and lootboxes inserted into games. It was unfair of me. But calling out gacha games for predatory monetization is something I will not stop doing. -
10-31-2024, 03:37 AMRaven2014Then why the heck you keep try to derail our discussion. How many times we had told you that we're not asking for Gacha mechanic to be implement, we simply want FF14 to have better writing, world exploration, better patch cycle, THAT'S WHAT WE WANT. The Gacha games are merely examples if people want to see how a modern game should feel and look. Just like when Yoshi told his team go play WoW a decade ago before in order to save 1.0 because at that time, WoW was the best of its class. And today, I want his team to look at modern Gacha games because the biggest one is certainly a golden standard in term of quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallarem
I don't know if you're realizing it or not, but by showing extreme prejudice against gacha game you're basically giving FF14 a free pass. You're basically making excuse for them, that because they don't make as much money, and Gacha game only has that quality because they make more. That ... is ... BS, and run counter to the discussion. Like I said, it doesn't matter if FF14 not making as much money as Gacha games, if it makes enough money to fund the fail NFT experiment, if it makes enough to sustenance the company when all other under-performance games, than it:
- Make enough to have a 3 months patch cycle instead of 4.5.
- Make enough that we shouldn't be waiting 3+ years for Viera hat
- Make enough that they shouldnt have downgrade VA quality in DT
- Make enough to innovate world exploration that has been the same for a whole 10 freaking years.
- Make enough that we should';t have that sorry tome grind for Relic in EW
- Make enough that people should be participate in a lottery for a house, and have to stay sub to keep their house.
NOBODY was advocating for gambling, NOBODY was saying FF14 should go the gacha route until You show up and go a tangent rant about gambling this gambling that. Again I don;t know if you recognize it's what you're doing, but you basically hand SE a pass by saying "hey since your game is not a gacha it's ok for you to delivery worse product and keep making it worse", that's exactly what you're doing. Your personal belief about gambling hold zero value in a discussion about how can FF14 be improved, in fact it has negative value here because all it does is derailling the discussion from what actually is important. Your personal prejudice is clouding your eyes on what the actual issue being discussed. -
10-31-2024, 03:48 AMZsavooz
Just returned to Dawntrail during the free time they gave this month and all I can say is Yuk. What a bore fest this game has become and they still force you to do Dungeons and Trials to advance the story line, c'mon. How is this fun!? Good luck guys, hope you are enjoying this, I'm not.
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10-31-2024, 04:13 AMHallarem
I tried, I really did. All I hear now is more whale noises.
And it seems my whale language is a bit rusty because simple logic isn't getting through to you and you go off on wild tangents on me being prejudiced against GAMBLING, yes, yes I am. Because I don't partake in whale mechanics in games that are predatory, condone them, support them or like them.
Gacha game mechanics are trash, games that have them are slot machines in the disguise of a game. Good evening sir. I'm outie 5000
Or in rusty whale: "Waowowoooo wooooowoowooooooooo 5 star 5 star 50 dollars 50 dollars wawowowowowo" -
10-31-2024, 04:24 AMJojoyaYour "not enough" is about the same amount we got from the release patch in the past few expansions. We got MSQ. We got EX versions of the first two MSQ trials. We got the first 4 bosses of the 8 man raid series on both Normal and Savage. We got an additional two level cap dungeons. We got the usual 2 world boss FATEs. We got 2 new jobs to level. We got new crafting recipes and gathering nodes. We got a new treasure map dungeon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidmage
Why is it only not enough now and not in the past when the price of the sub hasn't changed?
I'm definitely behind people pulling their money from a game when they're no longer happy with the game but let's not act like the amount of content released has suddenly decreased.
Not sure why you expected differently when dungeons and trials have been required to advance the story going all the way back to your forum join date.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsavooz
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10-31-2024, 04:41 AMKisshuLets take a look at Shadowbringers release. Back then we were just coming off of the 4.5 patch that gave last part of Eureka. For the people that liked that type of content, that gave us a lot to work on. Last raid in Ivalice was also a highlight for some with the difficulty. Then we got BLU as the first limited job. Several new gates at the Saucer. A very heavy patch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
Then comes SHB during the summer, brings a rewamped combat system (for some jobs, the third or fourth revamp), and a good story. 5.0 is a bit light, but the parts we got were well received and people were content. Patch 5.1 doesn't bring much new, it's more along the lines of future 5.1 patches. And then we have corona.
Corona is said to be the fault of a lot of delays and content, and it last for a very long time, all the way into the release of EW.
And same as SHB, EW story was well received at first. But we all know how the patches were received along with the content.
And now with DT and the not so well receive story, I guess a lot of peoples' patience is finally used up and they're more likely to complain.
Also the game doesn't seem to evolve, but rather stagnate in content types. FFXI at least brought something new at the start of each expansion that I played (from ToAU and onwards), FFXIV not so much.
TL/DR: SHB and EW had well received stories, but as patches start becoming more and more same, along with not well received story in DT, people start to complain. -
10-31-2024, 04:47 AMVerdeLuckIt also was not enough in the past but in the past there was a good story to mask the lack of quality in other areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
Now that Dawntrail's story is bad and all signs point to it not improving any time soon, it's showing the cracks elsewhere -
10-31-2024, 04:48 AMWolfereyI think you have the wrong game buddy, FF14 is the one that has not just 1, but 2 whale mountsQuote:
Originally Posted by Hallarem
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10-31-2024, 04:51 AMVoidmageIt’s criticism since 6.1 just louder now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
My “not enough right now” is just my wording. English is my third language (and tbh I don’t understand what is wrong there).
I was already annoyed by it in EW.
My not enough was also not only regarding quantity but also long lasting content. In another post somewhere I even said that DT has the problem of EW already not delivering for example field zones.
The price of the sub didn’t increase that is true but the time between patches did and the amount of content didn’t. -
10-31-2024, 11:12 AMRitsugameshBut it is less because it's gone from 3 months to nearly 4.5 months over the past few expansions. The game earns more money than it ever did during 2.0-4.0 and yet we're waiting longer for the same volume, meaning we're legitimately getting less for our monthly sub. Simple as.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
I could pick further fault with what you're saying - essentially 'we gave the exact same meal for the 6th time and it tastes the same and is as one-and-done as the other meals were and you're not happy?!'. Like, who would actually want to run the 2 level cap dungeons if they weren't in Expert roulette? Noone. Who cares about the EX fights once Savage came out? Noone. Who is excited to zerg a fate that basically has no mechanics? Some people, apparently. Who wants to flip a coin on the exact same treasure map dungeon you've done for years and years? Noone. Who cares about crafting when it's useless after week 1 savage? Noone.
It's not just that we're getting content at a slower pace, it's that it's the EXACT SAME CONTENT for the 6th time. It's old. -
10-31-2024, 11:01 PMEponaTBHSMHFor me the "not enough" isn't because I think there's been a decrease in content (There hasn't been)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
I think, as mentioned in the article, it's the staleness and the rigidity of the content that makes it so every single expac since Stormblood we have to wait until at least .25 to have an area where we can freely grind without being locked behind having to make PF like for blu content, or weekly/daily limit for roulettes or raid.
This is why I loved the concept of Variant Dungeons, and I think once they tweak a little more the normal rewards it will be a great piece of content for drought periods like this, those are definitely a step in the right direction
I just believe Covid and the development of FFXVI made YoshiP and his team camp too much on their "just go play something else" stance, they need to be more lenient with people that want to play only FFXIV because some have their reasons (mine was because my computer was potato and I couldnt afford to play any other games until I finally got my new rig). Some people just simply don't have other videogames they like aside from FFXIV and I think they should be taken in account as well.
Being able to do so would help them at least consider changing the formula, because sure as someone mentioned on social media, there's stuff like crafting, gathering, tribe quests, but for people who just wanna hit stuff I personally feel restricted, once I'm out of my weekly normal raid, my soon weekly 7.1 24 man raid, and my expert, what can I run that would help me work towards i720 gear with different stats for example?
Dev isn't flexible, that's what hurts about paying the sub rn