Viper Changes Thread - Share your thoughts

Very disappointed in these changes myself. I don't dislike Viper without Noxious Gnash by any means but I do think it was a very cruel rug pull when everyone was expecting to lose Dreadwinder Positionals instead. Absolutely awful communication on their part.
Would hope to see it reversed personally.

Job complexity in the future? The Lies of (yoshi) P

This change is terrible. I’d say it’s even worse than the kaiten removal.

I think it’s pretty messed up that they said they would remove positionals and busyness only to remove buff management. The feedback they have been getting was for the former and we didn’t even know removing the latter was on the table so we weren’t even able to express that we wanted to keep NG

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Originally Posted by einschwartz

Oh bummer!
My VPR may only be Lv92 before patch, and I'm never great at playing melee myself; but the changes sucks. It's even more disgusting that now it even highlights the first button as you alternate between combos. There's no thought process needed while playing apart from positionals. Just press the glowing button and have zero worries about buff upkeep.

I dislike it. 1 month is really so short to be changing a NEW job like this.

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No! It's not working the way you think! The highlighting does NOT tell you what to use next. The highlighting states what has a potency buff or what limited skill is available to use! That is why the change is bad because it is deliberately sabotaging the learning experience on how to dps on viper. The fundamental rule of DPS jobs is to use limited resources first ahead of common resources. If I have an ability with two charges and it has double the potency of a primary GCD, the idea is to use that skill first. However, once someone is in the throw of the main GCD cycle, that information gets lost because the highlighting is going to keep highlighting one or another skill on the main GCD plus the OGCD attached to them. So what happens is that people miss using the important skills. That was my experience going through the target dummy test and the expert roulette. On top of which, forcing myself around that problem by actively paying attention to cooldown buttons and changing the layout of the hot bars to compensate resulted in getting hit by easily dodge-able attacks. If the job were a bit slower paced this might work okay: An example would be dancer since they generally have a slower pattern except on the dance steps. But it is pretty clear Viper wasn't designed for this current iteration.

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

Viper had one status effect to watch. The two buffs come automatically when played right, focusing on the GCD one on fight initiation.

Funny you're calling be the beginner here lol, been playing the game for some time now.

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Idk where people get off on acting like they are an authority on a job when there's receipts available on the internet that show, that in fact, they are far from it.
All job mechanics are simple when you don't play the job correctly.

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Originally Posted by SeaJae

Idk where people get off on acting like they are an authority on a job when there's receipts available on the internet that show, that in fact, they are far from it.
All job mechanics are simple when you don't play the job correctly.

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And the job was never hard, ever. Implying keeping up a debuff took skill can be seen in many ways, most not good.

Reapplying a debuff is an unnecessary mechanic. I prefer Viper without Noxious Gnash

I really hope they revert these changes. Gnash was one of the few choices this job had, a very small but fun optimization.

A lot of people are saying that "this change didn't do much" to the job, and I'd like to take a moment to dispel that opinion.

On a training dummy, yes, you are mostly just alternating between Steel Fangs and Reaving Fangs, and in a full-uptime fight situation, Noxious Gash was just something you applied and kept up without thinking about.

But this world doesn't exist in a full-uptime situation. In fights where the boss would leave, or new additional enemies would appear, Noxious Gash became very interesting. For instance, take Valigarmanda's phase before ult, where he summons the additional enemies that must be DPS'd down. The Viper now has some new problems they must face:

1. How do I apply Noxious Gash to the first add I'm fighting?

2. How do I apply Noxious Gash to a second add if the one I'm fighting dies first?

3. How do I reapply Noxious Gash to Valigarmanda when he reappers?

It was possible to do all of these things without hitting an enemy that didn't have Noxious Gash. You could save a Dreadwinder charge for the start of the phase, and use Dreadwinder on the first add you hit. Then, you could finish 1 combo, and use Uncoiled Fury on your add so you don't have to start another combo until your add is dead. Since you are on a fresh combo for the next add, you could start with Dread Fangs, and DPS the last add down. And, at this point you had another Dreadwinder charge, so when Valigarmanda came back, no matter where you were in your combo, you could immediately reapply Noxious Gash to prepare for the 2 minute window.

Interesting choice. Optimization. Skill expression. Saying "Noxious Gash did nothing for the job, these changes are meaningless" is a bold-faced lie. Imagine how interesting Viper could have been, planning Noxious Gash around Ultimate trios, downtime phases, two-target bosses. . .

Now we have a sterile rotation that is decided for you the moment you pick your first GCD. What do I do when Valigarmanda summons his Nails? Just keep pressing the flashing buttons, I guess. Just like before, and just like every other time, ad infinitum.

PLEASE listen to the experienced Vipers here, we know what we're talking about. . .

Yep, it's bad. Job actually became the "press the glowing button" Yoshi-P had to reassure people wasn't the case in the pre-release Liveletter showcase. Oops.

It was already pretty dull below 90, and it's even worse now. Triple Reawaken seems like it might have some memey fun, but it only adds to the issue that most jobs now are only allowed to have fun for 15 seconds every 2 minutes.

I am happy they didn't remove the positionals. The gnash debuff, I don't have feelings either way. I was able tp keep it up and do my rotation without much thought. Now with it gone, I do notice that I am not watching timers like I was before.

Regarding the AoE streamlining between single target and multitarget, I do like that. It feels more fluid. I wish they had that in the original spec.

Overall, I am going to still keep playing it. I like the job, and hope they don't change it even more. I used to play AST when it first came out, but after they did the major rework right away, it didn't feel right after that, and ever since, it bugs the crap out of me. I am happy that to a degree, nothing to major has changed. I can still play Viper and have fun. Even took it into Savage today, and it wasn't to bad.

I just wish the devs would say something on the matter, to know whether it's worth to expect some reversal to the changes or just straight up abandon ship and move onwards to another job.

My 2 cents after going ham on my training dummy this morning:

It's fine, if not better, now. I would argue that the new interactions better express the flow the job was going for, moves empowering one another and using the proper follow ups.

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Originally Posted by Memyx

My 2 cents after going ham on my training dummy this morning:

It's fine, if not better, now. I would argue that the new interactions better express the flow the job was going for, moves empowering one another and using the proper follow ups.

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Every job is a braindead nothing burger on a training dummy. Of course it didn't matter there.

The problem is that Viper no longer interacts with the fight -- with 1 minute enhanced combo timers and no Noxious Gash, nothing short of a CUTSCENE in the middle of the raid will interrupt your scripted, step-by-step, glowing button rotation.

People need to stop with this "it feels the same" argument. It is objectively, indelibly changed to be less interesting and less complex at a higher level. You can like that, but it doesn't make the claim not true. I personally don't want to play melee Summoner.

So what Im basically reading is that there's 0 reason to bring viper to basically any fight over more pictomancers. Now that the job doesnt have a debuff+ on enemies, it's essentially useless.

*picks up rock*

Who I gotta throw this at now? Which developer? Which player(s)?

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

So what Im basically reading is that there's 0 reason to bring viper to basically any fight over more pictomancers. Now that the job doesnt have a debuff+ on enemies, it's essentially useless.

*picks up rock*

Who I gotta throw this at now? Which developer? Which player(s)?

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It only affected Viper damage.

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

So what Im basically reading is that there's 0 reason to bring viper to basically any fight over more pictomancers. Now that the job doesnt have a debuff+ on enemies, it's essentially useless.

*picks up rock*

Who I gotta throw this at now? Which developer? Which player(s)?

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This has no affect on Viper viability, it's solely about game feel. That damage (de)buff was baked into your potency and got unbaked in.

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Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer

This has no affect on Viper viability, it's solely about game feel. That damage (de)buff was baked into your potency and got unbaked in.

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They couldve easily put the debuff on both skills that start your opener. you'd have 100% uptime at that point. instead, they removed it entirely. so there's 0 reason to bring dps other than x4 pictomancer (even with the most novice players playing the job). 0 reason.

I am not a fan of the noxious changes. It's a single change that completely torpedoes how good it felt to play. I would be happy if they reverted viper to 7.01.
It would be absolutely insane to delete any other job's core mechanic, I cannot fathom how they thought it a good idea here.

Slither does feel a bit snappier, which I appreciate though.

edit: the edited skill names vicewinder etc aren't as cool to me either.

This change was so unnecessary and extremely tone-deaf. They really should revert it and refrain from laying a single finger on the job. I'm not sure how much it needs to be said before the message is understood, leave the job alone.

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Originally Posted by Alice9

This change was so unnecessary and extremely tone-deaf. They really should revert it and refrain from laying a single finger on the job. I'm not sure how much it needs to be said before the message is understood, leave the job alone.

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Right, isn't that frustrating? It's not like we said explicitly "don't touch the positionals," I believe most of us were saying "Leave the job the same." I know I was, at least. They need to implement some sort of patch-preview system so feedback can be given before they ruin something. . .

The fact that they decided to do this during the first week of savage is a slap in the face. Imagine getting up at 3am and looking forward to savage, only to find out you get nerfed (with a minor potency buff) and have to now scramble to find another dps to play (when there's already a picto in the static). That mightve hurt a lot of viper mains going into it. Shouldve just waited 2-3 weeks after savage to see the progress of the jobs and what needed better adjustments or nerfs. They shouldve just copypasta'd noxious gnash to both steel fang and reaving fangs. this way you can keep your debuff up while not really worrying about it (and still use the skills in the same function they had before).

The change to ngash was totally unnecessary. We did not need a melee class easier than rpr. If you really want to be melee and fall asleep at the wheel just hover in melee range on smn, sheesh.

These changes were completely unnecessary and unwanted. I was excited for the Savage patch but waking up to this has killed my mood and made me anxious about ever getting comfortable on a job.

I really hope they undo this, and then learn to just leave it alone.

The changes doesn't affect me as it... Doesn't change really the way it is meant to be played. Neither did the change affect the fun of it since, again, it doesn't change the way it plays. Would be weird if my fun was ruined because a little indicator was removed over the health bar of the boss i didn't even needed to really check before.

And, to be honest, i don't understand, at all, the whole "noxious was the core of Viper". Viper was (and still is) a job that wanted (and still want) to altern between two things with its self buff anyway. And that is the core : alterning between your skill.

Well, now that i've said that, i realise the changes actually reinforced that identity. So i guess it affect me, finally. In a good way.

I feel people are focusing too much on the noxious change when the extention of your buffs (haste, damage up, and positionals) are also awful changes. VPR went from a job that at first sight seemed to be a "click the shiny button" job to one that was actually all about priorities, you had to make sure you didn't cap both of your gauges while also making sure you didn't drop your debuff or your buffs, it wasn't much but it was something AND fun. but with these changes they truly turned VPR into that shiny button job I tought it was at first. before you had to make sure you had at least 30 seconds of naxious before the 2 min, before you couldn't mindlessly triple reawaken as you would lose something. There's 21 jobs in this game, if people don't like one or find it too hard then there are 20 more they might like. To me the 7.01 changes made VPR perfect, it felt great while needing some modicum of tought, but now it has become a shell of what it used to be.

im not a big fan. from the way its just pressing 111 222 111 222 over and over again now makes it feel so much worse than the alternating buttons. the dps diff between the debuff and the potency increace does not match up so it deals less dmg now.

probably the biggest gripe i have with the job rn is the fact that the thing that made it special is now gone. it really had a uniqe feeling that i didnt get from any other dps whilst scratching the itch that tanks couldnt help with.
i really looked forward doing EXs, savages and maybe even ultimates with this job but this patch really just killed that feeling for me. such a shame, one of the REALLY few good things that came out of Dawntrail and now its gone.

Posting for the first time to say I really dislike the viper changes and it kills my desire to play the job. Managing the debuff was just one of those little bit of brain engagements that was interesting to me, especially when you're trying to dump resources into burst. I especially don't like how it makes it makes viper's two combostarters identical - if they are going to do the same, thing, why are there even two separate buttons? Hoping this will be reverted but as I understand they don't tend to do that, so I guess I'll just find another melee to play.

Hmm, maybe… hopefully… a lot of people drop viper. Will make PFs easier to get into moving forward, possibly.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Hmm, maybe… hopefully… a lot of people drop viper. Will make PFs easier to get into moving forward, possibly.

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It's even more braindead now, so maybe the opposite effect. Hopefully they revert these changes.

I'm a bit surprised people are actually upset about the loss of this thing. Maintaining it was the most annoying part of playing the job.

Noxious Gnash seemed totally at odds with the design of Viper, which is mechanically simple, but the challenge is the high APM required to play it. You frequently have to double weave OGCDs and failure to do so results in a substantial loss of DPS as you either *lose* one of the OGCDs or drift your GCD, both of which are really bad. Not hard to do on a target dummy but challenging to do while avoiding mechanics. Especially since Viper is a selfish DPS, so any loss of DPS is a big deal as you don't bring anything else to a party.

It was just this stupid debuff you had to make sure was applied before you did anything major, like spending Rattling Coil charges or going into a Reawaken combo.

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Originally Posted by Kaceto

im not a big fan. from the way its just pressing 111 222 111 222 over and over again now makes it feel so much worse than the alternating buttons. the dps diff between the debuff and the potency increace does not match up so it deals less dmg now.

probably the biggest gripe i have with the job rn is the fact that the thing that made it special is now gone. it really had a uniqe feeling that i didnt get from any other dps whilst scratching the itch that tanks couldnt help with.
i really looked forward doing EXs, savages and maybe even ultimates with this job but this patch really just killed that feeling for me. such a shame, one of the REALLY few good things that came out of Dawntrail and now its gone.

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Maybe look at Reaper? They don't have the extremely high APM requirement, but if monitoring and maintaining a debuff on your targets is what you desire, they have Death's Design. It's also not nearly as clunky to maintain as Noxious Gnash was.

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Originally Posted by Zakon

the challenge is the high APM required to play it. You frequently have to double weave OGCDs and failure to do so results in a substantial loss of DPS as you either *lose* one of the OGCDs or drift your GCD, both of which are really bad. Not hard to do on a target dummy but challenging to do while avoiding mechanics. Especially since Viper is a selfish DPS, so any loss of DPS is a big deal as you don't bring anything else to a party.

It was just this stupid debuff you had to make sure was applied before you did anything major, like spending Rattling Coil charges or going into a Reawaken combo.

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This right here is the reason for the complain.
Allowing the class to require at least a bit of brainpower in decision making.

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Originally Posted by Erwann

This right here is the reason for the complain.
Allowing the class to require at least a bit of brainpower in decision making.

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Listen, if you're a gamer who is able to play Viper optimally without ever drifting your GCD or losing boss uptime while also perfectly dodging all mechanics in savage boss encounters, and you think it needs to be even MORE challenging by adding complexity to its rotation that requires pre-planning, I really am sorry that they did this to you.

But I suspect most people who are complaining about this aren't actually able to do that.

Viper is very much like Black Mage. The challenge isn't in the rotation, it's pretty easy to do on a targeting dummy. The challenge is doing the rotation with as little loss of uptime as possible, with the understanding that you don't bring anything except damage, so you have nothing to fall back on to contribute to the group if you play sub-optimally.

Feels even more braindead than it did before. Quite literally press the shiny buttons, then Reawaken when every one uses their 2 minute buffs. It's the Summoner of melee now - absolutely zero complexity whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Zakon

But I suspect most people who are complaining about this aren't actually able to do that.

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They always have the option of learning how to do that. The game shouldn't be changed because people don't want to engage with it.

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Originally Posted by Rhael

They always have the option of learning how to do that. The game shouldn't be changed because people don't want to engage with it.

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I think you misunderstood what I was saying when I said that, since I was talking about the people who are complaining about this change.

All this hype up for Viper at Fanfest-- just to nuke the job skills and job identity in lore. But the devs have a long standing history of pissing all of their lore too (considering sch), so lol.

Meteion: "And when one asked: What was the point? There were no devs left to answer."

Personally I'm with the Japanese players. I'm feeling very indifferent with the change. I did some runs with my Viper after the changes and it doesn't feel like it's really changed all that much from what we had just now we have an extra shiny button at the start of our 123 combo. I didn't really find NG to be all that hard to keep up unless I screwed up and or just didn't notice it was about expire, or any other number of things. It hasn't ruined the job for me but it was definitely an unnecessary change.

Made an account to post my dislike for the changes to Viper. The idea behind Noxious Gnash had given it that little extra bit of edge to make the class one of the few in-game to have some slight complexity to its kit like Reaper. Of course, not many people will understand it from the get-go, but I think it should be known that that's okay. Having a class that takes some time to understand makes it more rewarding to play when players put the time in. But to then take the complexity away shows an unfortunate lack of confidence in its design and subsequently its players for trying to understand their vision for it. Please revert the changes.

I setup my forum account just to post I absolutely hate this change to Viper. It feels much less engaging and makes the rotation feel mechanical in nature. The job hasn't even been played for a full patch cycle to warrant a complete revamp of the job. Please revert the change.