Are there any plans to fix the 'Haurchefant' localization?

PSA: THIS IS AN OBVIOUS TROLL

Now let me explain the type of troll this is. took me far too long to figure it out. So back in shadowbringers during one of the patchs there was obviously a mass buying of tomestone mats. one player for faerie one day put up this pf that basically said "don't get scammed, sell your mats on mb for more". now this was done in a way to bait people to respond to him. the result of which was alot of account strikes. So why is this important. Simple. he went in to this with a plan. he planned a troll topic he knew would set people off then had a script in place he never wavered from. I know because i talked to him through the month that bull was allowed up on pf. he never wavered on what he said. it was exact same each time. he even got his friends in on it who frankly were scared to be reported so dropped their pfs quick.

now what does that have to do with this thread. this is the same type of troll. Telkira was probably searching through stuff and found something so obscure about a beloved character that not alot of people frankly know about it. then found links and formulated his argument. If you look through the entire thread. its always the exact same points he brings up and never waivers. even went so far as to say that just because a person don't agree with what he says dont make it a troll. then last night 2 others mysteriously popped in and agreed 100% him with. this mirrors the player on pf to a tee. so thats the level of troll you are dealing with and I wish i had realized much sooner

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Originally Posted by Telkira

This is wrong. It was actually a massive uproar within the community about this deviation, to which SE's own localization team had to come out publicly and acknowledge that it was the wrong decision to take, both from a matter of internal procedure and deliberation, to the change itself.

"Theres so much heinous changes of translation that actually damages story scripts and intentions in other rpgs much worse yet you saying that Glenn Haurchefaunt Quagmire is among them has got to be the funniest and most out of touch thing Ive heard somebody trying to seriously argue for."
It's all the same issue culminating from the same broader issue. There are aspects of the change which impact more than just a few funny jokes, it actively impacts how these scenes were written and intended to be received by the original Japanese writers. Overarching mood and pacing is something that has to be considered and planned, and if one thing is altered or removed, it can have a negative impact on the flow of the entire thing.

Much of HW is boring. It is designed to be that way. It grounds itself on politics and intrigue and is perhaps set in one of the most colorless and drab environments in the game, and much of that is intended or outright considered by the designers who work in tandem with the narrative builders. Having "Glenn Haurchefant Quagmire" act the way he does actually throws much of it off and feels like 'emotional relief' rather than comedic relief, which can work when taken into account, but ultimately falls flat when not warranted, which here it wasn't.

He had LITERALLY zero reason to care, to be a 'bro', he is never asked "hey why are you like this", but if his sexual proclivities are there, at least he has something resembling a motivation to help, if not the character's implicit obligations and other facets which ground his character.

I can understand not being amused by it, and there are people who think the character is ruined by it, but that's an extreme position. He's not ruined by this, even among those standards. He's not overshadowed nor defined by it, and in his characterization in the JP script, that point is extremely clear.

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looks like somebody skipped ARR, where he gets introduced and you built that trust with him when you help out Francel clear his innocence. So him already caring for the WoL during HW was the product of that development in ARR, no matter how small it was.

The whole point of localisation is to make something relatable to a different audience. As far as significant changes go this one was pretty well done as it conveys the intended likability of the character to an audience where the initial trope is entirely alien.

From what I've read in interviews, localisation is also carried out earlier than with other games as the fr/de/en/jp translators are in house and with more communication between languages. Even if things like Phlegethon have happened.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

Think I'm just gonna have to disagree. That he is friendly without it having to "come from" somewhere is what makes him so immediately endearing. He's just a good man, and a good friend.

If he kept the "pervy" tropes then, to me, his amicable attitude would have been immediately suspect.
Rather than kindness being extended for kindness' sake, it would have instead come across like he's just trying to get something from me.

Almost transactional in a way. "I'm only being nice cause I think I'll be able to fuck you".

Not pleasant in the least, and even more suspect given that at the point in the story where he "takes us in" we are in a particularly vulnerable state. Our friends are missing, presumed dead, our base of operations is gone, we are on the run from the authorities, and have no where to turn to.
That he would extend the offer of shelter with all of the above in mind would feel like he is taking advantage.

I genuinely believe that if the JP version were more directly translated I would have had a significantly worse HW experience. Rather than mourning the loss of a friend I believe I would instead be celebrating the death of a predator.

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You are over the top and way to sensitive. He isn’t a predator. If you think that is then you need some help and to look up what they really are. I don’t understand how a person so sensitive even indulges Japanese media when alot is like this. Stick to your Western media and let the Japanese writers have what they wrote be shown and not censored.

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Originally Posted by Nyxs

Stick to your Western media and let the Japanese writers have what they wrote be shown and not censored.

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No need, the game already is censored to "Western sensibilities" Thanks to that rogue translator. God bless that person.

Ew, the Elitist Weebs are (asexually) multiplying.

I think EN Haurchefant is fine the way he is.

this still going on. the troll really keeps baiting people lol

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

PSA: THIS IS AN OBVIOUS TROLL

Now let me explain the type of troll this is. took me far too long to figure it out. So back in shadowbringers during one of the patchs there was obviously a mass buying of tomestone mats. one player for faerie one day put up this pf that basically said "don't get scammed, sell your mats on mb for more". now this was done in a way to bait people to respond to him. the result of which was alot of account strikes. So why is this important. Simple. he went in to this with a plan. he planned a troll topic he knew would set people off then had a script in place he never wavered from. I know because i talked to him through the month that bull was allowed up on pf. he never wavered on what he said. it was exact same each time. he even got his friends in on it who frankly were scared to be reported so dropped their pfs quick.

now what does that have to do with this thread. this is the same type of troll. Telkira was probably searching through stuff and found something so obscure about a beloved character that not alot of people frankly know about it. then found links and formulated his argument. If you look through the entire thread. its always the exact same points he brings up and never waivers. even went so far as to say that just because a person don't agree with what he says dont make it a troll. then last night 2 others mysteriously popped in and agreed 100% him with. this mirrors the player on pf to a tee. so thats the level of troll you are dealing with and I wish i had realized much sooner

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I...I'm genuinely at a loss for how braindead this type of response is. I'm not a troll, and just because you may disagree with my opinions, or how strongly I hold or ground them, doesn't make me a troll.
Haurchefant isn't 'obscure'. Anyone who played thru the MSQ knows who he was, and if they're at all like me (who plays with JP voiceover) they would have noticed glaring discrepancies with how the character is depicted in the cutscenes themselves vs. the text that appears on screen, even moreso than usual. That's what peaked my interest with this, and when I googled it, it was the apology post by John Crow LITERALLY the first result I found regarding his character, which prompted me to create this thread.

The fact that you STILL continue to summarize my criticisms and complaints in patently misleading or false ways as a means of rhetoric shows how little faith you have in your own position. You have nothing but insults and garbage posts and accusations with no attempt to rebut my accusations.
I don't waiver on my positions because I don't see a reason to. I respect people's sincere critiques about things, but overall if you're going to attempt to rebut my points and not address the subsequent rebuttal in a way that isn't just you restating your previous point, then you obviously don't know how to argue.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

this still going on. the troll really keeps baiting people lol

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You keep saying it's a troll thread and people should stop posting in it, yet you keep posting in it. You can just walk away, y'know?

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

You keep saying it's a troll thread and people should stop posting in it, yet you keep posting in it. You can just walk away, y'know?

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actually looking for a way to block the thread period but the forums don't allow it so i still see posts but yeah i will

Can we fix the Blue Blood to illuminati faux pas first? I still can't listen to Rise without remembering how bad that one was. :/

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Puritans. You know, the people who scream if there's the slightest bit of change to a game as censorship. Like the whole face touching thing in Fire Emblem Fates. It's creepy as hell in the west because you don't just touch people's faces like that, which is why they took it out for the west. But the puritans screamed at the top of their lungs about it.

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Dont consume jp media of you dont like it. They shouldn’t have to censor for weak people. Also why should they adhere to western culture in a Japanese made game. If you dont like it make your own game and stop pushing for them to change their style.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Can we fix the Blue Blood to illuminati faux pas first? I still can't listen to Rise without remembering how bad that one was. :/

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this one just didn't make sense to me

I love how everyone arguing about the West sensibilities conveniently forget that both France and Germany are part of the West yet neither altered the Japanese script, without any issue.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

I love how everyone arguing about the West sensibilities conveniently forget that both France and Germany are part of the West yet neither altered the Japanese script, without any issue.

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It's why I wish they would just implement a proper JP > EN translation script for all text if users have a setting installed. Literally no harm would come from it, players like myself would have a more faithful and 1:1 experience, while Western EN-speakers would have their 4Kids-tier jokes and the like.

They already do that with FR and GER. It really wouldn't be much more work.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

this one just didn't make sense to me

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Erm, because the illuminati is Epix~!

Actually, I have no idea. Gotta love "localizations". Though at least it wasn't as bad as working designs localizations. (I didn't forget what you did Vic...). lol

The Illuminati was probably just intended as a standardized "powerful conspiracy" joke when their entire role was a cheese war in Brayflox Hard. Of course, then Alexander came around.....

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The Illuminati was probably just intended as a standardized "powerful conspiracy" joke when their entire role was a cheese war in Brayflox Hard. Of course, then Alexander came around.....

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they should have legit just kept it the original name. I don't want to be reminded of boomer ass conspiracy theories while playing my video games.

I mean, Blue Hand (not blood) is a parody of Black Hand, who likely have the same "boomer ass conspiracy theories" the Illuminati does (if you don't feel like putting the effort into reading into the history of the two, anyway).

Why they were called Illuminati is pretty easy, considering these goblins are technically a "conspiracy" parody ("a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful," from a quick definition search)... which now makes your complaints about being reminded of "boomer ass conspiracy theories" kinda silly now lol

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Originally Posted by Telkira

they should have legit just kept it the original name. I don't want to be reminded of boomer ass conspiracy theories while playing my video games.

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Personally, I'm reminded of Malice Mizer's Illuminati...

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I mean, Blue Hand (not blood) is a parody of Black Hand, who likely have the same "boomer ass conspiracy theories" the Illuminati does (if you don't feel like putting the effort into reading into the history of the two, anyway).

Why they were called Illuminati is pretty easy, considering these goblins are technically a "conspiracy" parody ("a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful," from a quick definition search)... which now makes your complaints about being reminded of "boomer ass conspiracy theories" kinda silly now lol

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See, the original name actually beckons you to learn something, rather than just pandering to the lowest common denominator when it comes to 'conspiracy groups', plus it just sounds better overall.
This is precisely an example of why localization is a garbage approach that ultimately waters down the experience.

What and Illuminati doesn't beckon you to learn something? You're just being nit-picky because you hate the fact that Illuminati works just fine for the goblins, since they're being a parody of the Illuminati, much like how the name Blue Hand is a parody of Black Hand.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

they should have legit just kept it the original name. I don't want to be reminded of boomer ass conspiracy theories while playing my video games.

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Think that's more of a you issue. Don't let some crazy boomer conspiracies ruin this wonderful game's story for you.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

I would genuinely prefer all the jokes to be exactly how they appear in the JP version, even if much of them wouldn't land.

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Most people wouldn't prefer that.
FF14 is pretty big game.
It needs to reach the standards of triple A title, and appropriate style and quality of the written word seems like basic expectation from target market and requirement from, well, everyone.

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Here we list some more challenges that you must be aware of and prepare for:

Literal translations are difficult: Translators do not translate literally in almost every language combination that involves languages of distant cultures. They must choose words in the target language that create the same meaning, but these words may mean different things by themselves. With Japanese and English, this is starker.

Certain words in Japanese have no direct or accurate translations in English. They can only be translated for sense, depending on the context of the source contents, and at least we need to learn about the history of the words since they came from Japanese original culture.

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source

(Inspired by the thread I wanted to find something short and sweet to read about challenges of translating english into japanese. I know that the thread is about japanese to english localization. But it made me think of the media I have seen Japan localize less than stellarly from English. Those projects have been for children and teens, who tend to have media localized heavily for variety of reason.)

I also found this bit interesting, since if this is what Japan expects I'd hope they want to give this quality as well. Despite it's localization quirks, I am quite happy with FF14.

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The Japanese market is also a quality-sensitive and mature market. They are used to consuming high-quality localized products. They also have limited English proficiency. It makes localization a near-mandatory step to even enter the market. And, you’d have to aim for perfection, no less, to begin to register on the Japanese consumer’s mind.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

What and Illuminati doesn't beckon you to learn something? You're just being nit-picky because you hate the fact that Illuminati works just fine for the goblins, since they're being a parody of the Illuminati, much like how the name Blue Hand is a parody of Black Hand.

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No, it doesn't. It's so ingrained in Western pop culture here that you have literal Disney cartoons leaning in to it all. It's so contrived. At least 'Blue Hand' beckons you to learn about the 'Black Hand'. It also just sounds better too, and for those who aren't aware of it/not privy to it all won't be taken out of the story, since it actually sort of has that level of quirkiness that the goblins seem to embody.

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

Most people wouldn't prefer that.
FF14 is pretty big game.
It needs to reach the standards of triple A title, and appropriate style and quality of the written word seems like basic expectation from target market and requirement from, well, everyone.

I also found this bit interesting, since if this is what Japan expects I'd hope they want to give this quality as well. Despite it's localization quirks, I am quite happy with FF14.

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I think most people would be comfortable with it, actually, since it's a Japanese game first and foremost and most people are in this game for the story, worldbuilding, lore, characters, and fanbase/culture.
Yes, 'meta' humor is a big part of it all, but they're not what draws people in, nor is it what keeps people engaged.

If your argument is that a simple, faithful translation would detract from the game's quality in the west, then you're horrifically incorrect. Most people who are fans of the series would be just fine with that, minus all the flavortext and minor revisionism employed by the LOC team. The one thing I can commend the EN localizers for is keeping everything in terms of intent/meaning/function in-line with the actual script.

Yes, straight translations are difficult and in some cases impossible, and it's standard practice for translators to pick the closest analog to what is being said in the origin language to ensure that the meaning and intent is carried over.
But that's par for the course with translation, what we're talking about here is problematic localization where the original intent of the writers is watered down by Western revisionists who take extreme liberties with the goal of making it more marketable to Western audiences, which isn't impossible, but it tries to present the game and its content like it's Western and not like what it is, which is Japanese.

It wouldn't be difficult for the developers to just implement a secondary English script, one that's a more direct and literal translation of the JP text, and actually aligns with the Japanese spoken words in cutscenes.
In fact, that would be great because it would allow for them to keep pandering to Western audiences who are satisfied with the localization and those who could live without it or would want something they feel is better.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

No, it doesn't. It's so ingrained in Western pop culture here that you have literal Disney cartoons leaning in to it all. It's so contrived. At least 'Blue Hand' beckons you to learn about the 'Black Hand'. It also just sounds better too, and for those who aren't aware of it/not privy to it all won't be taken out of the story, since it actually sort of has that level of quirkiness that the goblins seem to embody.

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That's what localisation is about though. It's supposed to be something you know and are familiar with (or at least vaguely). That's why I really enjoy the dub of anime like The Disastrous Life of Saiki K. It makes references to things I know and can chuckle at ("help me Doctor Ku! Make that Blue Box teleport me to-" is an obvious Doctor Who reference. In the Japanese sub, I think it's a Doraemon reference, which I have not seen). Heck, Earthbound made hanges here and there so jokes could land for Western audiences.

Anyway, nit-picky.

I understand "Illuminati" to be a secret society thing, but "Blue Hand" would have been meaningless to me.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I understand "Illuminati" to be a secret society thing, but "Blue Hand" would have been meaningless to me.

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Well, one is a reference, there is some attempt at parody.

The other is outright just taking the name of something, that in itself should be regarded as a mark against the choice to change it.

Again, you're nit-picking! Illuminati is a perfectly good name for a group of goblins who are being a parody of conspiracy groups.

aka Illuminati.

But I prefer English version though. Japanese one is too creepy for my taste.

While it would be neat to have Haurchefant flirting with my character in English, I don't mind that they changed his dialogue. It's my headcanon that Haurchefant still felt the same way in the English localization, but was just keeping things professional.

Can we all agree the reason OP and other people are being salty for the change is because they're all being creepy, degenerate horn dogs and its very, very, VERY hard to see them actually caring for anything substantial with the localization besides that.

You're all not fooling anyone here. You expect us to believe that you care about the integrity of the script, but its really about wanting to fulfill your haurchefaunt sexual fantasies with your WoL and wanting it to be full on canon.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Can we all agree the reason OP and other people are being salty for the change is because they're all being creepy, degenerate horn dogs and its very, very, VERY hard to see them actually caring for anything substantial with the localization besides that.

You're all not fooling anyone here. You expect us to believe that you care about the integrity of the script, but its really about wanting to fulfill your haurchefaunt sexual fantasies with your WoL and wanting it to be full on canon.

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Whatever you want to think I guess bud. Some people do play the game for the story if you are unaware so we would like the intended script.

So can we all agree this guy is talking out his ass and making assumptions about people who don’t want things americanized. We can? Good.

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Originally Posted by Fredco191

While it would be neat to have Haurchefant flirting with my character in English, I don't mind that they changed his dialogue. It's my headcanon that Haurchefant still felt the same way in the English localization, but was just keeping things professional.

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At this point that's the fanbase canon, that Japanese Haurchefant was his thoughts, while English Haurchefant is what he was actually saying.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

At this point that's the fanbase canon, that Japanese Haurchefant was his thoughts, while English Haurchefant is what he was actually saying.

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The canon is the JP presentation, as explicitly stated in the apology post by the head of the LOC team at the time.

The problem with Western localization is that Westerners begin to feel entitled to revisionism of this type, so they begin to aggressively impose their views and values which are inadvertently (if not explicitly) at odds with the true vision, which is what we are entitled to.

I want Haurchefant to be corrected, I want the dialog text that plays during his cutscenes to be reflective of the Japanese being spoken, in addition to the rest of his dialog to be reflective of his actual speech and characterization.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Can we all agree the reason OP and other people are being salty for the change is because they're all being creepy, degenerate horn dogs and its very, very, VERY hard to see them actually caring for anything substantial with the localization besides that.

You're all not fooling anyone here. You expect us to believe that you care about the integrity of the script, but its really about wanting to fulfill your haurchefaunt sexual fantasies with your WoL and wanting it to be full on canon.

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My brother in christ, can any of you actually come up with some sort of criticism or rebuttal that isn't "no u" or an outright insult??

I've made my point very clear in the OP, and so far all I've received instead of counterarguments or points were insults. It's amazing that SE even bothered pandering to people like you, fans like yourself are exactly what foreign media should strive to avoid enticing and pandering to.

I've made my point about why a faithful, proper translation would be a better approach, wherein the intent and focus of the writers is preserved and properly communicated. Artistic and literary integrity matters over what is essentially a fool-hearted business decision, whereby SE admitted flat-out that their handling of Haurchefant, from the way it was handled to the fact that he was changed at all - was a mistake.

If you like the Haurchefant localization, good. You should be allowed to keep it if you choose to play the game with English cutscene audio.
Myself and the silent majority of others who make up this fanbase do not. We want to feel like we can trust that what we read, see, and experience is the 'true' version, not some Americanized revision because they mistakenly believed that I'm as intellectually dishonest as you and others like you, because that's ultimately what the Localization approach is about - being a business decision.

If you want my broader opinion, it's a fool's errand to localize foreign content if your goal is to appease them and connect with them, you might as well start from scratch and finance a whole new game, with Westernized tropes, narratives, characters, names, etc because ultimately the content in question will inherently be foreign. The way the story is written, the way the characters are designed and written, etc.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

My brother in christ, can any of you actually come up with some sort of criticism or rebuttal that isn't "no u" or an outright insult??

I've made my point very clear in the OP, and so far all I've received instead of counterarguments or points were insults. It's amazing that SE even bothered pandering to people like you, fans like yourself are exactly what foreign media should strive to avoid enticing and pandering to.

I've made my point about why a faithful, proper translation would be a better approach, wherein the intent and focus of the writers is preserved and properly communicated. Artistic and literary integrity matters over what is essentially a fool-hearted business decision, whereby SE admitted flat-out that their handling of Haurchefant, from the way it was handled to the fact that he was changed at all - was a mistake.

If you like the Haurchefant localization, good. You should be allowed to keep it if you choose to play the game with English cutscene audio.
Myself and the silent majority of others who make up this fanbase do not. We want to feel like we can trust that what we read, see, and experience is the 'true' version, not some Americanized revision because they mistakenly believed that I'm as intellectually dishonest as you and others like you, because that's ultimately what the Localization approach is about - being a business decision.

If you want my broader opinion, it's a fool's errand to localize foreign content if your goal is to appease them and connect with them, you might as well start from scratch and finance a whole new game, with Westernized tropes, narratives, characters, names, etc because ultimately the content in question will inherently be foreign. The way the story is written, the way the characters are designed and written, etc.

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As someone who actually researched and read the original JPN script for most of Haurchefaunt's lines....yeeeeah I'm gonna actually have to give it an L on the writing department for that one. Like I said, the character was expected to be a somewhat major player in the story that was supposed to be taken seriously. You really think JPN Haurchefaunt would've been much more substantial if he was a walking erotic stereotype rather than how they handled him to be more of a humble and respectfully optimistic individual? Its baffling people like you wanting to regress rather than improve. Pretty sure SE only apologized because the rabid fanbase was at their throats about it and they were clearly trying to save face, otherwise they'd retconned his personality already. But they did not because it turns out people like how he's written now compared to the original script.

I'm all for wanting to keep the writing as close to the original intention of the script, but Haurchefaunt's case is one of the rare moments where the localization improves on the given character rather than taking away his value.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

As someone who actually researched and read the original JPN script for most of Haurchefaunt's lines....yeeeeah I'm gonna actually have to give it an L on the writing department for that one. Like I said, the character was expected to be a somewhat major player in the story that was supposed to be taken seriously. You really think JPN Haurchefaunt would've been much more substantial if he was a walking erotic stereotype rather than how they handled him to be more of a humble and respectfully optimistic individual? Its baffling people like you wanting to regress rather than improve. Pretty sure SE only apologized because the rabid fanbase was at their throats about it and they were clearly trying to save face, otherwise they'd retconned his personality already. But they did not because it turns out people like how he's written now compared to the original script.

I'm all for wanting to keep the writing as close to the original intention of the script, but Haurchefaunt's case is one of the rare moments where the localization improves on the given character rather than taking away his value.

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I don't think it detracts from people's ability to take him seriously. He already does so much for the player at that point, so in my view, as a character, he has earned his right to be comedic.
I personally don't see what's wrong with it, since it's perfectly appropriate for the 'T' 13+ rating and no worse than anything else that seeks to appeal to this demographic. Jiraiya from Naruto is 'worse' in this regard.

And yes, I genuinely do think JP Haurchefant would be better because changing him also required them to change other aspects about his character, including interactions which drastically changed the mood of these scenes. I'd rather have him as a bombastic and humorous pervert than a what he is now, because it's very clear that in the JP version that's not all he is.
I personally found it creepy how he was re-written, it didn't feel right, it felt like he was trying to establish an emotional connection when the pieces for that simply were not there.

And I think you're assuming too much, it's very clear what they apologized for and even agree that going through with the change itself, in addition to how they handled it, was wrong and they admitted it was wrong, even admitting that they deprived us of a proper character. Whether or not certain people gravitate more towards how he was re-written than they would the JP variant is irrelevant, that type of argument would be something to deal with procedurally in the way of feedback with the scenario writers, NOT by flat out revising the script because they were afraid of offending people.

Why they don't go in and retcon it, I genuinely don't know. I would be satisfied with a flat-out overhaul of the text based on what language preferences the player sets in-game, if not having the text align with the spoken JP in the cutscene.