My “Next job” predictions: “Scouting” and “Fending”

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Casters are ranged DPS making the total of those not counting BLU as 6 and the most saturated role in game.

If you're going to split hairs and call caster and aiming separate then you have to do the same for melee dps making it 2,2,1. The 1 being scouting and all 3 being lower than both types of ranged DPS. There's also the argument that NIN is a hybrid DPS rather than a dedicated physical one.

Then there's also those comments they made about whatever jobs come next will be something new to the franchise implying they won't be grabbing jobs from previous FF titles. Though that raises a question of whether or not other SE titles are fair game. Other titles with job systems I can immediately recall are the Bravely Default series, Dragon Quest series, and Harvestella.

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If we are going to split hairs do all the melee have different looking “Role Actions” tabs. Because casters and physical ranged dps do.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Except that it is an alternate version, and there's nothing in FFXIV's lore that says it uses ice, thunder, or fire.

Where it connects to Conjurer is that our one example of a GEO who isn't just a Feng Shui consultant uses a Conjurer's 1-handed wand and uses water, stone, and wind spells.

There are three reasons I'm against having a geomancer job. The first is that as presented to us so far in FFXIV, the job is not unique enough to stand on its own and this game already has a problem with homogenizing everything that I really don't want to continue. The second is that there is only 1 living practitioner of the art in the entire game and he is tied up in another job's storyline. And thirdly, it can be assumed that there are also no job stones for geomancers because the art has basically died out, with the successors having to find things out by reading scrolls or misinterpreting geomancy altogether.

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I didn't say they use ice, thunder, or fire in XIV. I said they do in other games. You are correct in stating that they use water, earth, and wind magic, however that doesn't necessarily make them conjurors. As per your point about a character who uses a wand and casts those 3 elements, I've already noted that when a class that wasn't in the game has made an appearance, the devs had to use another class as a base. Yet the real class turned out to be different once actually implemented into the game. This is neither the only, nor was it the last time that a class that didn't exist had to use another as a base and if it gets added, it will be changed, as has been done before.

Your point about the last living geomancer, there is a discrepancy as that is not actually true, or at the very least it's the last living humanoid practitioner. The Swallow's Compass dungeon has strong geomancer themes and features enemies that are most certainly not conjurors. They are based on traditional geomancers as they do not wield wands/canes, but bells as weapons. They do cast earth, water, and wind magic, but in the form of terrain and weather spells like a traditional geomancer. It is also said that Seiryu is the god of geomancy and he's definitely not dead either.

All that aside, it wouldn't really take that much to implement GEO into the game as a playable class. There's really no need to rework CNJ and its lore. If they wanted to make some changes with the job and lore to distinguish it further from conjury, they'd only really need to change some lines of text, they've done it before. It's been one of the most heavily requested classes since StB. So there's a possibility it may be added, but that's not a guarantee either.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Casters are ranged DPS making the total of those not counting BLU as 6 and the most saturated role in game.

If you're going to split hairs and call caster and aiming separate then you have to do the same for melee dps making it 2,2,1. The 1 being scouting and all 3 being lower than both types of ranged DPS. There's also the argument that NIN is a hybrid DPS rather than a dedicated physical one.

Then there's also those comments they made about whatever jobs come next will be something new to the franchise implying they won't be grabbing jobs from previous FF titles. Though that raises a question of whether or not other SE titles are fair game. Other titles with job systems I can immediately recall are the Bravely Default series, Dragon Quest series, and Harvestella.

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Our personal opinions on how classes are split aren't really relevant. When you get right down to it, there are several ways we can split jobs in XIV. 12 DoW, 7 DoM/9 melee, 10 ranged/4 tanks, 4 healers, 11 DPS/4 tanks, 4 healers, 5 melee DPS, 6 ranged DPS, the list goes on. You can't even them all out. High-end fights are designed around team comps of 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 melee, and 2 ranged. The devs are mostly concerned with balance and as it stands, we have 4 tanks, 4 healers, 5 melee DPS and 6 ranged DPS. They balance tanks with healers and melee DPS with ranged. Magic or physical aren't taken into consideration. Yes, physical ranged and magic are split, but that's only because classes are split between DoM and DoW. Melee magic classes don't exist. There is a high probability we'll get another melee, as much as I dislike melee classes. It'll be unfortunate if they really do go down to 1 job per expansion though as there's always been at least 1 new job I enjoyed. That won't happen anymore if we're limited to 1 each expac, but I digress.

Actually, regarding melee classes, I'd make an exception for an onion knight DPS class

Bravely Default is basically a FF spin-off, but I like this idea of borrowing inspiration from other SQEX games. It opens up a much wider range of interesting and unique possibilities. Could be fun.

Man, the amount of people using "logic" to only throw it out the window...

Then there are the people saying they'll only start releasing only 1 new job to maybe none. Bruhhhhhhhhh, have you played this game? There's nothing actually new to play other than new jobs in a new expansion.

Anyway, using actual logic, the new jobs will most likely be a Caster and Tank.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

If you're going to split hairs and call caster and aiming separate then you have to do the same for melee dps making it 2,2,1. The 1 being scouting and all 3 being lower than both types of ranged DPS. There's also the argument that NIN is a hybrid DPS rather than a dedicated physical one.

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what? is going by the in-game menu splitting hairs?

https://i.gyazo.com/e78c68edcf029a3d...c94ffe3b81.png

no way we get melee twice in a row

caster(most likely considering its been 6 years since they have added a new one)+tank or phys ranged+tank

the pattern is/was
arr-caster, healer, melee
hw-phys, tank (melee-like), healer
sb - melee, caster
shb- phys, tank
ew - melee, healer

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

Man, the amount of people using "logic" to only throw it out the window...

Then there are the people saying they'll only start releasing only 1 new job to maybe none. Bruhhhhhhhhh, have you played this game? There's nothing actually new to play other than new jobs in a new expansion.

Anyway, using actual logic, the new jobs will most likely be a Caster and Tank.

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You're going to have to elaborate on your logic. Those pointing out why the likelihood of the next job being a melee, and the fact that the next expansion will only release one job are breaking things down to the grain. All you're doing is stating your opinion along with, "Bruuuuuh, have you even played this game?" Is that the extent of your logic?

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

what? is going by the in-game menu splitting hairs?

https://i.gyazo.com/e78c68edcf029a3d...c94ffe3b81.png

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If going by the in-game menu, then you can clearly see how unbalanced the roles are. What exactly is your point?

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Originally Posted by Firework

Our personal opinions on how classes are split aren't really relevant. When you get right down to it, there are several ways we can split jobs in XIV. 12 DoW, 7 DoM/9 melee, 10 ranged/4 tanks, 4 healers, 11 DPS/4 tanks, 4 healers, 5 melee DPS, 6 ranged DPS, the list goes on. You can't even them all out. High-end fights are designed around team comps of 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 melee, and 2 ranged. The devs are mostly concerned with balance and as it stands, we have 4 tanks, 4 healers, 5 melee DPS and 6 ranged DPS.

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There are no opinions on how the classes are split. 4 tanks, 4 healers, 5 melee DPS, 3 physical ranged DPS, and 3 magical ranged DPS. That's it. The opinions start rolling in when players predict what role a new job or jobs would fill. What players such as myself try to point out, is how erroneous it is to think that new ranged jobs are coming to FFXIV because there are only three of each without taking into consideration that by doing this, there will be a total of eight ranged DPS jobs all the while leaving the total of playable melee DPS jobs at five. It is a very faulty mindset to have if taking into consideration how this dev team loves symmetry, and making things nice and neat. Sure, they could do this, but it would be pivotal in the current direction they have taken with the game.

They have touched on the fact that there is only one job that uses scouting gear, and melee combatants are just very popular in general across all genres of games. It is also my opinion that another melee job is the most likely candidate, and I feel it just makes to most sense. Also, two jobs per expansion going forward just isn't very prudent. the dev team simply can't continue to do this with the shear number of jobs we already have available. And as for tanks and healers, it is the most difficult to balance the game around these roles, which is why I doubt we will ever see a new tank and healer in FFXIV. If we ever do, it will likely be down the road, and not in 7.0, or even 8.0.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

There are no opinions on how the classes are split. 4 tanks, 4 healers, 5 melee DPS, 3 physical ranged DPS, and 3 magical ranged DPS. That's it. The opinions start rolling in when players predict what role a new job or jobs would fill. What players such as myself try to point out, is how erroneous it is to think that new ranged jobs are coming to FFXIV because there are only three of each without taking into consideration that by doing this, there will be a total of eight ranged DPS jobs all the while leaving the total of playable melee DPS jobs at five. It is a very faulty mindset to have if taking into consideration how this dev team loves symmetry, and making things nice and neat. Sure, they could do this, but it would be pivotal in the current direction they have taken with the game.

They have touched on the fact that there is only one job that uses scouting gear, and melee combatants are just very popular in general across all genres of games. It is also my opinion that another melee job is the most likely candidate, and I feel it just makes to most sense. Also, two jobs per expansion going forward just isn't very prudent. the dev team simply can't continue to do this with the shear number of jobs we already have available. And as for tanks and healers, it is the most difficult to balance the game around these roles, which is why I doubt we will ever see a new tank and healer in FFXIV. If we ever do, it will likely be down the road, and not in 7.0, or even 8.0.

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Your own post contradicts itself. "There are no opinions on how the classes are split", "The opinions start rolling in when..." You've just acknowledged there are opinions on the subject. Regardless, if there weren't differing opinions, there wouldn't be discourse. Yet there is

"4 tanks, 4 healers, 5 melee DPS, 3 physical ranged DPS, and 3 magical ranged DPS. That's it." No, it's not. As I've stated, for certain higher end content, physical and magical ranged are lumped together. Certain mechanics require players to be up close to the boss and other players to be at a distance. Magical or physical is irrelevant, they just need to be ranged. Another example would be achievements. Titles are split between DoM and DoW, you need to level all 12 physical classes for the DoW title and all 7 magic classes for the DoM title. ShB role quests only split the DPS between physical and magic. EW role quests further split the DPS between melee, physical ranged, and magic. There are several ways they can be and are split. However, it's all irrelevant. They're not all taken into consideration when adding new jobs. Current discourse, however, is just split between those who want to separate magical and physical ranged and those who combine them

You've also miscounted the number of ranged as there are 6. Adding 1 would make 7, not 8 (BLU doesn't count). Unless you're suggesting people are predicting we're getting 2 ranged?

I agree with the speculation that we'll likely get another melee. Whether or not it's the only job we'll get in 7.0, Idk

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You're going to have to elaborate on your logic. Those pointing out why the likelihood of the next job being a melee, and the fact that the next expansion will only release one job are breaking things down to the grain. All you're doing is stating your opinion along with, "Bruuuuuh, have you even played this game?" Is that the extent of your logic?

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Elaborate what? It's pretty clear what I'm saying.

People keep listing the new jobs per expansion and saying how they can clearly see a pattern, only to completely ignore the pattern they themselves listed and mentioned.

ARR:Healer, Caster, Melee
HW:Tank, Healer, Ranged
SB:Melee, Caster
SHB:Tank, Ranged
EW:Melee, Healer
7.0:Let's ignore the pattern because scouting doesn't have another job

I haven't seen any explanation worthwhile to consider removing new jobs from expansions, new jobs have always been the highlight of new expansions because they haven't added or done anything else. Let's say they do remove it, then what would they market instead? Even if they drop it to one new job, that job would always have to be a DPS by Yoshida's own words, this would slowly kill raiding because healers and tanks will slowly stop playing if they get nothing new.

There really doesn't seem to be any discernible pattern to the classes added, I still say despite the two most recent classes being SGE and RPR, there is a possibility of a Healer and a Melee.

The Melee of course being a class that would use Scouting as it's kind of just sitting there being NIN exclusive gear... And between the Physical Ranged and Casters, there's more Ranged DPS Jobs than there are Melee ones. So adding in an extra Melee would even those out to total of 6 of both.

As for the Healer, AST has been reworked twice since HW (first to remove the cards, then to remove Nocturnal Sect), and they were planning yet another rework for it for 6.2 I do believe, but it ended up being such a big rework that it got pushed to 7.0... I could see them pushing out a new Regen healer to take AST's current place as they spend another Expansion or three trying to figure out what exactly they want AST to be.

I vaguely recall reading there's a B-team scion that was studying ninjutsu around the time the whole Crystal Braves thing, and being a student of arcanima, they were trying to see if there was a way of merging the two in some way, maybe that could come up at some point

As for GEO, I just think that the implementation will not be satisfactory due to the way the combat works now. Things are too rigid to allow it. Personally, I'd rather they make BLU able to do actual content and let that be the caster. And if not that, then a new unique-to-XIV job, like how GNB takes inspiration from 8/13 but is 'a new job', and RPR takes some notes from Sice in Type-0 but is 'a new job'

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I vaguely recall reading there's a B-team scion that was studying ninjutsu around the time the whole Crystal Braves thing, and being a student of arcanima, they were trying to see if there was a way of merging the two in some way, maybe that could come up at some point

As for GEO, I just think that the implementation will not be satisfactory due to the way the combat works now. Things are too rigid to allow it. Personally, I'd rather they make BLU able to do actual content and let that be the caster. And if not that, then a new unique-to-XIV job, like how GNB takes inspiration from 8/13 but is 'a new job', and RPR takes some notes from Sice in Type-0 but is 'a new job'

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Our good buddy Coultenet did create a new magic by combining the elemental aspects of ninjutsu from Doma and arcane geometries. Him and Hoary Boulder are currently exploring Corvos.

What exactly wouldn’t be satisfactory about Geomancer though? Not everyone wants it to be a field placing caster/healer, but are very happy with the ascetic exorcist that it is in the FF14 universe. It’s gonna be like any other dps in the game: use certain abilities to build a gauge, use different abilities to deplete gauge, no reason that cant work from a Geomancer standpoint, especially with them only focusing on wind/stone/water. Getting a Far Eastern caster is just going to be a win no matter how you look at it.

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Originally Posted by Firework

Your own post contradicts itself. "There are no opinions on how the classes are split", "The opinions start rolling in when..." You've just acknowledged there are opinions on the subject. Regardless, if there weren't differing opinions, there wouldn't be discourse. Yet there is

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You cut out when I explained how the opinions roll in. If you're going to just omit the part of the post when the point is made, you're not making a valid argument. You can't argue what is fact, and I shouldn't have to explain how jobs are currently set up a second time. I did that in my last post. Yes, there are opinions on the subject, and those opinions reflect why players make the predictions they do.

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No, it's not. As I've stated, for certain higher end content, physical and magical ranged are lumped together. Certain mechanics require players to be up close to the boss and other players to be at a distance. Magical or physical is irrelevant, they just need to be ranged.

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Mechanics don't dictate what jobs are range or melee. Whether you are required to move in or out to avoid getting hit might determine how easy or difficult it is for certain jobs to maintain uptime though.

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Another example would be achievements. Titles are split between DoM and DoW, you need to level all 12 physical classes for the DoW title and all 7 magic classes for the DoM title. ShB role quests only split the DPS between physical and magic. EW role quests further split the DPS between melee, physical ranged, and magic. There are several ways they can be and are split. However, it's all irrelevant. They're not all taken into consideration when adding new jobs. Current discourse, however, is just split between those who want to separate magical and physical ranged and those who combine them

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This I agree with. It is irrelevant because that is an ARR achievement. The irrelevancy also extends to how all the jobs are split into roles. If we want to boil things down, it is simply easier to look at which jobs are ranged, and which ones are melee based.

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You've also miscounted the number of ranged as there are 6. Adding 1 would make 7, not 8 (BLU doesn't count). Unless you're suggesting people are predicting we're getting 2 ranged?

I agree with the speculation that we'll likely get another melee. Whether or not it's the only job we'll get in 7.0, Idk

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I did not miscount, and have been saying there are six ranged DPS jobs this whole time. It's a huge basis for my argument. I said adding one physical ranged and one magical ranged would make eight. This is another basis for my argument because it is my speculation that 7.0 is only going to add one new job, and that isn't based on the lack of another job that uses scouting gear. I make this prediction because I know with the amount of jobs we currently have, it would not be prudent nor practical for the dev team to continue adding two jobs per expansion.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

Elaborate what? It's pretty clear what I'm saying.

People keep listing the new jobs per expansion and saying how they can clearly see a pattern, only to completely ignore the pattern they themselves listed and mentioned.

ARR:Healer, Caster, Melee
HW:Tank, Healer, Ranged
SB:Melee, Caster
SHB:Tank, Ranged
EW:Melee, Healer

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Where's the pattern here? What you're saying is not clear, especially when you say, "Bruuuh, do you even play this game?" That is what I'm saying to you.

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7.0:Let's ignore the pattern because scouting doesn't have another job

I haven't seen any explanation worthwhile to consider removing new jobs from expansions, new jobs have always been the highlight of new expansions because they haven't added or done anything else. Let's say they do remove it, then what would they market instead? Even if they drop it to one new job, that job would always have to be a DPS by Yoshida's own words, this would slowly kill raiding because healers and tanks will slowly stop playing if they get nothing new.

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Again, what pattern? Your wording is also poor because jobs are never removed upon expansion release. No job has been removed from FFXIV ever, nor will this ever happen. I'm not a numbskull though, and I know what you mean, and what you mean is no additions to jobs in new expansions. The lack of another job that uses Scouting gear is only one of many valid statements supporting the addition of another melee job coming in 7.0. Whether or not you deem someone's comments worthy has no bearing whatsoever, especially if you can't come up with valid counter arguments of your own, which you still have yet to do. You seem to be farming for likes more than anything, but that's just my personal opinion. Based on observation, of course.

New jobs are a highlight for a new expansion but they are not the only thing that sales them. Players love to continue the MSQ (especially when sitting on the current cliffhanger), they want to see the changes to their favorite [existing] jobs, new cities and zones, new NPCs, dungeons, and trials. The new tribes and quests, the list goes on, bub. If new jobs are the only thing you look forward to with all the content that comes with the release of an entire expansion, I honestly pity you. That's pretty sad.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Where's the pattern here? What you're saying is not clear, especially when you say, "Bruuuh, do you even play this game?" That is what I'm saying to you.


Again, what pattern? Your wording is also poor because jobs are never removed upon expansion release. No job has been removed from FFXIV ever, nor will this ever happen. I'm not a numbskull though, and I know what you mean, and what you mean is no additions to jobs in new expansions. The lack of another job that uses Scouting gear is only one of many valid statements supporting the addition of another melee job coming in 7.0. Whether or not you deem someone's comments worthy has no bearing whatsoever, especially if you can't come up with valid counter arguments of your own, which you still have yet to do. You seem to be farming for likes more than anything, but that's just my personal opinion. Based on observation, of course.

New jobs are a highlight for a new expansion but they are not the only thing that sales them. Players love to continue the MSQ (especially when sitting on the current cliffhanger), they want to see the changes to their favorite [existing] jobs, new cities and zones, new NPCs, dungeons, and trials. The new tribes and quests, the list goes on, bub. If new jobs are the only thing you look forward to with all the content that comes with the release of an entire expansion, I honestly pity you. That's pretty sad.

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I'm so confused...? Someone please let me know if my wording is as poor as she claims.

This Pattern.
ARR:Melee, Healer, Caster
HW:Tank, Healer, Ranged
SB:Melee, Caster
SHB:Tank, Ranged
EW:Melee, Healer

Farming likes? What am I gonna do with likes? I don't control who likes my posts.

As for the "gameplay" additions you mentioned, literally nothing new, just a new coat of paint. New jobs are the only new things we can interact with. I agree, it is sad.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

I'm so confused...? Someone please let me know if my wording is as poor as she claims.

This Pattern.
ARR:Melee, Healer, Caster
HW:Tank, Healer, Ranged
SB:Melee, Caster
SHB:Tank, Ranged
EW:Melee, Healer

Farming likes? What am I gonna do with likes? I don't control who likes my posts.

As for the "gameplay" additions you mentioned, literally nothing new, just a new coat of paint. New jobs are the only new things we can interact with. I agree, it is sad.

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that person is like talking to a wall just ignore them. theres very obvious pattern in that they do not do the same role 2 xpacs in a row. by that we are sure next xpac will 100% not be a healer or melee dps.

no, we need new range and caster dps

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You cut out when I explained how the opinions roll in. If you're going to just omit the part of the post when the point is made, you're not making a valid argument. You can't argue what is fact, and I shouldn't have to explain how jobs are currently set up a second time. I did that in my last post. Yes, there are opinions on the subject, and those opinions reflect why players make the predictions they do.

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I think you're misunderstanding my point. My first paragraph is only pointing out a contradiction in yours. First you state people don't have opinions, then backtrack and say they do. When, how, or why they exist is irrelevant, my only point was that they do.

You don't need to explain how jobs are set up. We've both already covered it and we seem to share the opinion that we may get a new melee. It has nothing to do with my first paragraph anyway.

As for the original post you responded to, I was merely pointing out that there are several ways classes could be split, but individual opinions on how they should be don't really matter. Saying "We're probably getting x role because I think classes should be split this way" doesn't make sense. The devs are going to add a job based on their own perspective, and it's their perspective we should look at when speculating new jobs. They will take player demand into consideration, but will still ultimately add or change based on what they think needs balancing, if they think it needs any

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Mechanics don't dictate what jobs are range or melee. Whether you are required to move in or out to avoid getting hit might determine how easy or difficult it is for certain jobs to maintain uptime though.

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I was just pointing out typical team comps and how magical ranged and physical ranged are lumped together

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Originally Posted by Gemina

This I agree with. It is irrelevant because that is an ARR achievement.

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??? They've added a new title achievement with every expac. It's still irrelevant, but that statement is just false

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The irrelevancy also extends to how all the jobs are split into roles. If we want to boil things down, it is simply easier to look at which jobs are ranged, and which ones are melee based

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This is pretty much a simplified way of explaining the point I was trying to make, but yes. Jobs can be split many ways, but most are irrelevant

I would be very surprised with we get another Tank/Healer job so soon (if at all).
If we get two jobs in 7.0, then it's most likely Scouting and Casting. But we're probably approaching the time we start to get only one job per expansion, so my money would be on Caster.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

I'm so confused...? Someone please let me know if my wording is as poor as she claims.

This Pattern.
ARR:Melee, Healer, Caster
HW:Tank, Healer, Ranged
SB:Melee, Caster
SHB:Tank, Ranged
EW:Melee, Healer

Farming likes? What am I gonna do with likes? I don't control who likes my posts.

As for the "gameplay" additions you mentioned, literally nothing new, just a new coat of paint. New jobs are the only new things we can interact with. I agree, it is sad.

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I think this is more of a case of seeing the pattern you want to see.
Can you say the same thing about Healers and Casters for example?

Other people would sooner group Tanks and Healers together than Tanks and Melee, and we went one expansion with neither of them.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I would be very surprised with we get another Tank/Healer job so soon (if at all).
If we get two jobs in 7.0, then it's most likely Scouting and Casting. But we're probably approaching the time we start to get only one job per expansion, so my money would be on Caster.

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I expect they will add only 1 job in this or the next expansion, but if 2 I would also bet scouting and casting.

I have a feeling with 7.0 being a 1 and done story, they will want to see how it plays out/how well received the idea is without a long term overarching plot. I imagine this means a lot of focus/energy spent on making the expac successful, especially with the mixed bag that EW was…with how much work it takes to make a unique job, I’m not sure there is time to develop a second.

…that said, they do have perfectly good removed DoT mechanics from SMN that might make a welcome return.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I expect they will add only 1 job in this or the next expansion, but if 2 I would also bet scouting and casting.

I have a feeling with 7.0 being a 1 and done story, they will want to see how it plays out/how well received the idea is without a long term overarching plot. I imagine this means a lot of focus/energy spent on making the expac successful, especially with the mixed bag that EW was…with how much work it takes to make a unique job, I’m not sure there is time to develop a second.

…that said, they do have perfectly good removed DoT mechanics from SMN that might make a welcome return.

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There's also the graphical update which is bound to be taking up significant dev time. I'm honestly kind of expecting 7.0 to be a much more down-tuned expac because of it, so only 1 new job would make sense to me.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I have a feeling with 7.0 being a 1 and done story, they will want to see how it plays out/how well received the idea is without a long term overarching plot. I imagine this means a lot of focus/energy spent on making the expac successful, especially with the mixed bag that EW was…with how much work it takes to make a unique job, I’m not sure there is time to develop a second.

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My personal guess is that Golbez in 6.4 will Exposition Dump at us, which will lead to 6.5 setting us up on the next big overarching story

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I think this is more of a case of seeing the pattern you want to see.
Can you say the same thing about Healers and Casters for example?

Other people would sooner group Tanks and Healers together than Tanks and Melee, and we went one expansion with neither of them.

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I mean, it's literally there so I could say the same to you for ignoring it. The melee+tank job has always been used as a marketing tool each new expansion I don't see it changing any time soon, as we've seen how rigid they are developing for this game.

I can say the same for healers, because we only had WHM in 1.0 it obviously needed more jobs so we got SCH and AST back to back, this is also the reason healers skipped an expansion. Caster is in its predicted rotation.

We went one expansion with no healer or tank and hell ensued but this was more because we stopped getting 3 new jobs and we were promised they'd never do it again and it hasn't happened nor will it IMO.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

I mean, it's literally there so I could say the same to you for ignoring it. The melee+tank job has always been used as a marketing tool each new expansion I don't see it changing any time soon, as we've seen how rigid they are developing for this game.

I can say the same for healers, because we only had WHM in 1.0 it obviously needed more jobs so we got SCH and AST back to back, this is also the reason healers skipped an expansion. Caster is in its predicted rotation.

We went one expansion with no healer or tank and hell ensued but this was more because we stopped getting 3 new jobs and we were promised they'd never do it again and it hasn't happened nor will it IMO.

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Sure the pattern is there, you've helpfully bolded it too. But patterns exist everywhere (people see the face of the virgin Mary in their toast, and numerology, boy where do I start with that) that doesn't mean they're intentional even if you can rationalise them, and it certainly doesn't mean they're immutable. They can, and do, change.

I certainly wouldn't say they've demonstrated that they're rigid with their patterns. The fact that we have several ways of classifying job roles (tank/healer/melee, or physical/magical, or melee/ranged, or gearset, etc.) and that they change up every expansion, is a clear indicator that they've left room to have the freedom to change this pattern at any point they wish to. (In fact, they specifically cited a lack of Maiming classes as a reason for implementing Reaper, I would argue that "the role/gear subset that has gone the longest without an update" is a higher priority factor than any 'pattern'.)

Furthermore, they haven't always used the new job as the marketing tool. Shadowbringers was marketed around Dark Knight, not Gunbreaker, Endwalker was marketed around paladin, not Reaper. They don't need a new melee job to sell an expansion when we already have options to choose from for the poster class, and we certainly don't specifically need a Tank to fill that melee role. (I know you've claimed that new jobs are the only selling point of an expansion, but that's nonsense considering there are people who still play jobs that aren't Reaper or Sage. The fact that you don't see any value in any other aspect of an expansion is a 'you' problem)

With 20 jobs now in the game (FF11 finished at 22) and each one added increasing their workloads exponentially, it has to slow down at some point. It might not be 7.0 that starts that process, but it could be given that EW was the end of the core arc of the MSQ. Maybe I'm wrong and SE miraculously decides to plough more funding into FF14 now that 16 is finished, but I wouldn't be placing any bets on that yet.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Sure the pattern is there, you've helpfully bolded it too. But patterns exist everywhere (people see the face of the virgin Mary in their toast, and numerology, boy where do I start with that) that doesn't mean they're intentional even if you can rationalise them, and it certainly doesn't mean they're immutable. They can, and do, change.

I certainly wouldn't say they've demonstrated that they're rigid with their patterns. The fact that we have several ways of classifying job roles (tank/healer/melee, or physical/magical, or melee/ranged, or gearset, etc.) and that they change up every expansion, is a clear indicator that they've left room to have the freedom to change this pattern at any point they wish to. (In fact, they specifically cited a lack of Maiming classes as a reason for implementing Reaper, I would argue that "the role/gear subset that has gone the longest without an update" is a higher priority factor than any 'pattern'.)

Furthermore, they haven't always used the new job as the marketing tool. Shadowbringers was marketed around Dark Knight, not Gunbreaker, Endwalker was marketed around paladin, not Reaper. They don't need a new melee job to sell an expansion when we already have options to choose from for the poster class, and we certainly don't specifically need a Tank to fill that melee role. (I know you've claimed that new jobs are the only selling point of an expansion, but that's nonsense considering there are people who still play jobs that aren't Reaper or Sage. The fact that you don't see any value in any other aspect of an expansion is a 'you' problem)

With 20 jobs now in the game (FF11 finished at 22) and each one added increasing their workloads exponentially, it has to slow down at some point. It might not be 7.0 that starts that process, but it could be given that EW was the end of the core arc of the MSQ. Maybe I'm wrong and SE miraculously decides to plough more funding into FF14 now that 16 is finished, but I wouldn't be placing any bets on that yet.

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I just can't rationalize how it's random, I don't see it. If it happens for a decade, surely there's a reason for it?

I believe they've said the things they develop have been decided for years in advance, if that's not rigid I don't know what is. And people always play around with classifications to give merit to their ideas. I mean, that's what the last few pages has been about. I wouldn't give it that much thought.

I disagree, DRK and PLD were used as posterboys but not as marketing tools, I remember how people speculated what role Thancred's new job would be for months as they cleverly left that part out, or how Zeno's weapon was concealed during both in game cutscene and in the initial EW trailer, that also had people talk about it for months.

This is certainly not a me problem, it's simply how the game is. Extremely rigid, there are simply no new things other than jobs. Obviously people still play old jobs, new jobs just make it more fun, brings more people to a specific role, broadens playstyle for a dedicated tank/healer/dps.

FF11 has customization, FF14 does not. As for balance, why do you think they've opted to a 2min meta? The devs aren't the brightest but some things are intentional even if they're bad. It's to ease their workload and keep pumping out jobs because they know it's the only thing they have for new expansions.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

I just can't rationalize how it's random, I don't see it. If it happens for a decade, surely there's a reason for it?

I believe they've said the things they develop have been decided for years in advance, if that's not rigid I don't know what is. And people always play around with classifications to give merit to their ideas. I mean, that's what the last few pages has been about. I wouldn't give it that much thought.

I disagree, DRK and PLD were used as posterboys but not as marketing tools, I remember how people speculated what role Thancred's new job would be for months as they cleverly left that part out, or how Zeno's weapon was concealed during both in game cutscene and in the initial EW trailer, that also had people talk about it for months.

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So what happens when they inevitably drop to 1 new job per expansion? How does your pattern work then? Do we only get alternating Tank/Melee DPS for the next 'however many expansions are left in the game'?
They will be forced to change it up.

Also claiming that this pattern has been going for a decade is a bit of a stretch, when ARR hardly counts as it featured every role, and HW had the benefit of three jobs to cover all main roles. At most this is a pattern they've stuck to for three expansions, and the first of those was not part of any pattern because it was the first two-job expansion.

In every other aspect of the game, they've demonstrated they want to change things, and this will apply to jobs at some point.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

So what happens when they inevitably drop to 1 new job per expansion? How does your pattern work then? Do we only get alternating Tank/Melee DPS for the next 'however many expansions are left in the game'?
They will be forced to change it up.

Also claiming that this pattern has been going for a decade is a bit of a stretch, when ARR hardly counts as it featured every role, and HW had the benefit of three jobs to cover all main roles. At most this is a pattern they've stuck to for three expansions, and the first of those was not part of any pattern because it was the first two-job expansion.

In every other aspect of the game, they've demonstrated they want to change things, and this will apply to jobs at some point.

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They won't drop it to 1, I already explained why this won't happen unless the raiding community dies out it will always be 2.

How is it a stretch if it already happened? Even if you don't count ARR, it's still there also we didn't get a new ranged(but back then DPS were just DPS, we didn't have subroles) or tank.

They have demonstrated that in HW and SB but not anymore they haven't, designs have been extremely stale anyone could tell you this.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

They won't drop it to 1, I already explained why this won't happen unless the raiding community dies out it will always be 2.

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This is a non-sequitur, and also delusional.

They cannot sustain 2 jobs per expansion indefinitely, and yet the game isn't dead enough to stop releasing expansions yet.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

This is a non-sequitur, and also delusional.

They cannot sustain 2 jobs per expansion indefinitely, and yet the game isn't dead enough to stop releasing expansions yet.

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Are you forgetting that this is a business first? They'll do it even if it's a detriment.

I said raiding community, not the game itself. The Limsa AFKers are a much bigger part than the raiding community and they'll be here long after raiding is dead.

Didn’t they say they planned on eventually slowing down on job releases? Why is everyone in here convinced that means that 7.0? Especially when 70% of the people in here think we need 3-4 jobs per melee set as well as 4 jobs per role.

I’m also no expert, but wouldn’t the engine overhaul and job creation teams be… entirely separate? I mean I know its a small indie company working out of Yoshi P’s garage but I feel as if they aren’t needing to decimate the job implementation team to work on the rest of the game.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

This is a non-sequitur, and also delusional.

They cannot sustain 2 jobs per expansion indefinitely, and yet the game isn't dead enough to stop releasing expansions yet.

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wym? as long as they keep dumbing down jobs and making them so similar they can def keep pumping out 2 an xpac. dps just need some off-gcds and 2 min buffs and a random gauge gimmick and its ready to go.

I don't think FFXIV needs more jobs, maybe limited jobs but not the regular jobs because they are very homogenized and feel very samey.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

Didn’t they say they planned on eventually slowing down on job releases? Why is everyone in here convinced that means that 7.0? Especially when 70% of the people in here think we need 3-4 jobs per melee set as well as 4 jobs per role.

I’m also no expert, but wouldn’t the engine overhaul and job creation teams be… entirely separate? I mean I know its a small indie company working out of Yoshi P’s garage but I feel as if they aren’t needing to decimate the job implementation team to work on the rest of the game.

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They've cited multiple times that too many jobs are the reason why we're getting fewer weapons (newer jobs don't get older crafted weapons, and now they're reusing more assets for dungeon weapons), and why we're not getting individual job quests anymore and have moved to role quests instead.
Each new job increases the workload of the team responsible for items/assets exponentially. One Expansion they have 9 jobs to cater for, then 12, then 14, then 16, then 20, next it'll be 22, that's more than twice the workload.

Alternatively they could just stop giving us crafted weapons, or have every other EX give us accessories instead of weapons like the mid-expac trial, or maybe every single dungeon weapon going forward will be a recolour of an existing weapon.

I'd rather fewer jobs, especially as they're getting more and more homogenised. What's the point in having 6 Tanks if they all play the same?

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

I don't think FFXIV needs more jobs, maybe limited jobs but not the regular jobs because they are very homogenized and feel very samey.

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I actually kind of agree with this although I'd like another caster in the future.

But in general I feel like I rather they take the time of balancing and reworking existing jobs to be more diverse from each other, In the same boat if they double down on the current job design and don't add anything, I don't really think that would be great, so I rather jobs be added if we keep most jobs the same. (I think refining and reworking what we got would still be ideal mostly though).

We can all speculate about what job(s) we will get (I have and it's a interesting discussion) but at the same time I think we're in need of refining what we've got, it's way more important to me then adding another melee with a 120 raid buff and burst phase, the only unique thing being is "It shares scouting gear".

Like I've said Scouting gear doesn't make ninja Interesting it just makes melee really annoying for most people to gear. (along with maiming and striking separations).

Another reason why I think caster, specifically a certain caster is a quote from the Encyclopedia Eorzea:

“Frustrated with his inability to foreshorten the suffering of his land’s people at the hand of their cruel ruler, an ascetic monk set off on a journey of enlightenment with naught but his staff, Kujo, and the robes on his back. After a year of having journeyed the entire length of the Dairyu Chain, the monk returned to Doma and presented the staff— now primed with the geomantic energies of water and wind— to his lord that he, too, might awaken to his vassal’ plight.”

What ascetic monk do we also know who is on a a journey of enlightenment across Othard?

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

I don't think FFXIV needs more jobs, maybe limited jobs but not the regular jobs because they are very homogenized and feel very samey.

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Job count, in itself, neither homogenizes nor differentiates each job unless looking at things in an incredibly unambitious way (e.g., this is the only job with DoTs; this is the only job with AoE heals; etc.).

Things can share parts while nonetheless feeling distinct; often the number of parts available to job design (which create "homogeneity" in not restricting them to a single job each) allow for those jobs to, through that sophistication, feel more distinct from each other. Moreover, the more jobs you have with various niches, the less likely you are to have some relegated to uniquely "gimmicky" positions.

In short, it cuts both ways and job count does not necessitate homogeneity in any real or meaningful sense; only an utter lack of ambition and/or homogeneity of relatively shallow encounters tends to do so.

We don't have "1 tank because we have 4 tanks". We have, at their core, "1 tank" because the devs have become increasingly unwilling to diversify the means by which a player can contribute value to particular encounters.

Adding a third tank allowed for Paladin to play more distinctly from Warrior, for instance, not less, while homogenization between Paladin and Warrior already went into full effect well before DRK arrived. GNB, meanwhile, did not cause DRK to be increasingly turned into a Dark Warrior.

I'd rather have a big redesign of all jobs instead of adding new ones.

Considering how strict the jobs are with their skills, I was hoping we'd get a sort of customizable talent system.

I think for FFXIV a tier based talent system like WoW used to have with 3 options per row would fit rather well, at least for healers.

One of the consistent complaints for healers is how dull filler downtime can get. We could have the freedom to customize the kits, allowing players that want more healing tools to pick more healing abilities and the players that want more DPS tools to slot them accordingly, making both sides happy.

Next job is going to be chocobo knight. You heard it here first