SE, don't overthink Summoner 7.0. Just give people what they want. Just do it.

i am enjoying how summoners have their Advatars in the big open world in vana'diel <3

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...202&height=676

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...202&height=676

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...202&height=676



and FFXI summoner get Caith sith <3 soo cute!!!!

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...202&height=676

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

i am enjoying how summoners have their Advatars in the big open world in vana'diel

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It’s such a missed opportunity to me that they don’t have the Egis hang around for the duration of Avatar’s Favour. Wouldn’t it make much more sense if like, you summon Ifrit, he does Hellfire, then stays and auto-attacks or w/e while you perform Ruby Rite / Crimson Cyclone, then you swap him for the next one? They could give Carbuncle auto-attacks or abilities to auto-use too.

I guess the animation would’ve cost too much lol

There's been back and forth on the general reception of SMN as a job in this thread. Over on General, I put up this thread asking for feedback on all jobs, and there's also posts on reddit sharing these surveys. I want to add that with almost 100 submissions so far, SMN is in dead last in terms of job satisfaction (though AST is a close second and the two have danced back and forth a bit).

SMN is most commonly being awarded 1s, and is averaging around a 4-4.5 out of 10.

There's certainly more to the story here, but there's clearly a lot of animosity toward the job from its rework.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

There's been back and forth on the general reception of SMN as a job in this thread. Over on General, I put up this thread asking for feedback on all jobs, and there's also posts on reddit sharing these surveys. I want to add that with almost 100 submissions so far, SMN is in dead last in terms of job satisfaction (though AST is a close second and the two have danced back and forth a bit).

SMN is most commonly being awarded 1s, and is averaging around a 4-4.5 out of 10.

There's certainly more to the story here, but there's clearly a lot of animosity toward the job from its rework.

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I can see why. With how it was prior until now its just got stripped of everything. At this point can you or anyone call it a "smn" ? to me its just a channeller. Reason being because of the how it functions. Yes you do smn Bahamut & phoenix but in between? just channel the power of dump truck titans hands to hit your foes.

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Originally Posted by Axxion

I can see why. With how it was prior until now its just got stripped of everything. At this point can you or anyone call it a "smn" ? to me its just a channeller. Reason being because of the how it functions. Yes you do smn Bahamut & phoenix but in between? just channel the power of dump truck titans hands to hit your foes.

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I can understand why the implementation choice: the animations. The animations are the ultimate lock. I understand about elementals, but I don't understand why the carbuncle should do absolutely nothing. A colossal and endless waste of placement-based gameplay. Previously a minimum was present with SC assigned to the pet, removed for just cause. But I hope the devs and designers understood that the problem was not SC assigned to the carbuncle itself, but the fact that the carbuncle disappears.

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Originally Posted by Axxion

I can see why. With how it was prior until now its just got stripped of everything. At this point can you or anyone call it a "smn" ? to me its just a channeller. Reason being because of the how it functions. Yes you do smn Bahamut & phoenix but in between? just channel the power of dump truck titans hands to hit your foes.

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My take is, in terms of style and concept, EW SMN is more a "Summoner" than the job has ever been before, and I actually like the direction of how the summons work, having carbuncle as a "caddie" of sorts, and having your rotation be a combination of grand summon attacks and channeled personal attacks. That said, I think this concept, while having considerable potential, was very poorly executed. The job is frustratingly rigid, carbuncle has no real utility that warrants having him as a support caddie, and overall feels incomplete and takes simplicity too far.

I want to see this concept really enhanced, possibly even taking inspiration from older iterations of SMN and readopting those elements in a way that fits this new gameplay feel. For example, I mentioned earlier that one possible way to loosen up the job's rigidity is to reverse the way gemstones work on the gauge. Ifrit/Titan/Garuda do not require gems; they have cooldowns and generate gems, and its Bahamut/Phoenix who require 3 different gems to be summoned (and you start instances with 3 gems). This now immediately makes it easier to delay a Bahamut/Phoenix phase in dungeons, or for when a burst window needs to be delayed, and creates room to add potentially a 4th option that can be interchangeable with I/T/G. Perhaps Phoenix gets downgraded to your 4th summon, deals slightly less damage than the other 3, but offers healing, instant rez, and utility. This allows SMN to now choose when to bring out utility if needed rather than being forced to take advantage of it at specific points in its rotation, and creates more decision-making moments for the player. Alexander could perhaps replace Phoenix as the alternative summon to Bahamut, or we could keep Phoenix as-is and have the 4th be something like Lakshmi, or maybe that 4th phase is enhancing your Carbuncle into a big Diamond Carbuncle like the one we see in Idylshire. But at this point, these are just my own ramblings of ideas.

I always said the summons should function like FF7R. Summon comes out and you have no control over then. They do their own thing. They single target attack when it’s one enemy and if two or mor they aoe. Then after maybe 15 seconds they perform their ultimate attack and leave. Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I always said the summons should function like FF7R. Summon comes out and you have no control over then. They do their own thing. They single target attack when it’s one enemy and if two or mor they aoe. Then after maybe 15 seconds they perform their ultimate attack and leave. Just my opinion.

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We kind of have that already with Frey and the Automaton Queen, but those are also criticized for effectively just being DoTs.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

We kind of have that already with Frey and the Automaton Queen, but those are also criticized for effectively just being DoTs.

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Yeah I guess that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

For example, I mentioned earlier that one possible way to loosen up the job's rigidity is to reverse the way gemstones work on the gauge. Ifrit/Titan/Garuda do not require gems; they have cooldowns and generate gems, and its Bahamut/Phoenix who require 3 different gems to be summoned (and you start instances with 3 gems).

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This. In addition to being much more natural and sensible to think of it: because it doesn't make sense that your strongest summon unlocks 3 weaker summons but it should be vice versa, it clearly also makes rotation more natural and makes the rotation completely non-rigid to delay the burst phases when mechs require it. This for the basic rotation of the smn would be a healthy touch. (And the fact that the designers didn't think about it makes me think badly). Personally I wouldn't start with 3 gems already, but I would prefer an ogcd with a 2 minute cd that fills the gems (this would allow, playfully, to potentially vary the rotation)

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I always said the summons should function like FF7R. Summon comes out and you have no control over then. They do their own thing. They single target attack when it’s one enemy and if two or mor they aoe. Then after maybe 15 seconds they perform their ultimate attack and leave. Just my opinion.

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my personal opinion, I prefer that my summons actively influence my gameplay, and that they are not just dots. If having all summons actively controllable is difficult, and I can understand that, I would like at least my carbuncle to have this feature. If with 7.0 they get rid of the thought by giving it an automatic attack and stop, practically haven't made the class more playful and personally it would annoy me.

If summoner could also equip a staff instead of tome I would love that

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

This. In addition to being much more natural and sensible to think of it: because it doesn't make sense that your strongest summon unlocks 3 weaker summons but it should be vice versa, it clearly also makes rotation more natural and makes the rotation completely non-rigid to delay the burst phases when mechs require it. This for the basic rotation of the smn would be a healthy touch. (And the fact that the designers didn't think about it makes me think badly). Personally I wouldn't start with 3 gems already, but I would prefer an ogcd with a 2 minute cd that fills the gems (this would allow, playfully, to potentially vary the rotation)

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A knock on effect of doing it this way is that you'd have a double demi burst every 2 minutes after your opener. This could also be changed to shift away from 2 minute bursts of course, but regardless of the timer restrictions, is that what you're imagining with this concept?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

A knock on effect of doing it this way is that you'd have a double demi burst every 2 minutes after your opener. This could also be changed to shift away from 2 minute bursts of course, but regardless of the timer restrictions, is that what you're imagining with this concept?

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Um no actually that was not what I meant. I imagined that the 3 elementals would unlock bahamuth/phoenix but that these would still have their own recast timer of 60 seconds. Otherwise it would be just (maybe) a little OP. That way instead of going into the 3 elementals forcibly to have the 3 different stones, you could just use ifrit and garuda for example and with this skill (which you can only use every 2 minutes) add titan's and then be able to go into phoenix/bahamut.
Basically I imagine that elementals can be summoned multiple times and each elemental has a 15 (?) second cd, so in the 43 seconds you can summon elementals multiple times and with this skill also avoid using one (or more if they were added) in particular

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

Um no actually that was not what I meant. I imagined that the 3 elementals would unlock bahamuth/phoenix but that these would still have their own recast timer of 60 seconds. Otherwise it would be just (maybe) a little OP. That way instead of going into the 3 elementals forcibly to have the 3 different stones, you could just use ifrit and garuda for example and with this skill (which you can only use every 2 minutes) add titan's and then be able to go into phoenix/bahamut.
Basically I imagine that elementals can be summoned multiple times and each elemental has a 15 (?) second cd, so in the 43 seconds you can summon elementals multiple times and with this skill also avoid using one (or more if they were added) in particular

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So you press the button, and then Mudra-style hit your Summon I/T/G to get their gems basically? Or are you actually getting their attacks? If you're meant to actually summon them with this tool, I think there would be a big technical limitation due to how long they stay out. Even if we can resolve the issue of having multiple pets which I feel is necessary to make Carbuncle a functioning part of the kit, It would probably look quite janky to see all 3 of them appear almost simultaneously, especially in an alliance raid with multiple summons. If you can't take advantage of that later in the fight because Bahamut and Phoenix have a 60 second cooldown anyway, it feels a little unnecessary if it's the former Mudra style example because then I don't really see the point to having that as a button to do what just allowing SMN to start with 3 gems would already provide.

basically you summon ifrit and gain 1 ruby ​​gem, then you summon garuda and gain 1 emerald gem, at this point you would have to summon titan to get 1 topaz gem to be able to use bahamht/phoenix, instead you reuse ifrit (for reason x). At this point you couldn't summon bahamht/phoenix because you lack topaz gem, so you use this skill which gives you the missing gems (in this case topaz gem).

And that's all in 3 GCDs? I don't think that would function given how long each summon stays on the field.

ah no, considering the current operation of summons. So 1 summon at a time (preferably excluding carbuncle), with their own animation lock. But they can be summoned multiple times during the lego phase, but with an assigned CD so as not to be spammed.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

ah no, considering the current operation of summons. So 1 summon at a time (preferably excluding carbuncle), with their own animation lock. But they can be summoned multiple times during the lego phase, but with an assigned CD so as not to be spammed.

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How do you get Bahamut during the opener though? That was what I was initially saying about starting with 3 gems, so that when a fight begins, there's no weird or messy system of trying to get Bahamut out in time. The part about having each summon generate a crystal over its phase, yes. Each has some cooldown so you don't just Titan > Titan > Titan or Titan > Ifrit > Titan, and you can delay Bahamut or Phoenix as needed.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

How do you get Bahamut during the opener though? That was what I was initially saying about starting with 3 gems, so that when a fight begins, there's no weird or messy system of trying to get Bahamut out in time. The part about having each summon generate a crystal over its phase, yes. Each has some cooldown so you don't just Titan > Titan > Titan or Titan > Ifrit > Titan, and you can delay Bahamut or Phoenix as needed.

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Since you have no gems, the skill will give them to you (The skill gives you the gems that you lack or simply, gives u all gems). In opening just use it and you will have instant available Bahamut, so during the rotation every 2 minutes it allows you to not necessarily use all the elementals but to use some of them several times without lose bahamut/phoenix timing.

This solution would incentivize the player to actually do "garuda > ifrit > garuda" every 2 minutes. Personally, I don't find this a problem. Clearly adding high CDs, as you suggested, however, "garuda > garuda > garuda" can never happen.

Staying on the topic of proposals, in my opinion if we free Mountain buster from topaz rite and nerf topaz rite just that little bit to make ruin 3 more damage-worthy, the smn can decide whether to do a little more damage but remain stationary, or use topaz rite to gain movement (as happening for garuda pre 70). In addition, each Mountain buster has a % chance of proc a significant boost damage for topaz rite

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

Staying on the topic of proposals, in my opinion if we free Mountain buster from topaz rite and nerf topaz rite just that little bit to make ruin 3 more damage-worthy, the smn can decide whether to do a little more damage but remain stationary, or use topaz rite to gain movement (as happening for garuda pre 70). In addition, each Mountain buster has a % chance of proc a significant boost damage for topaz rite

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The problem of this system for the current summoner is that it would be necessary to redo all the balancing of the battle system for it to work, because if bahamut is not quickly accessible the summoner, the SMN will not have any opening burst, even during the stormblood and shadowbringer period, bahamut was accessible quite quickly under 15s at stormblood and under a few seconds at shadowbringer the time to weave the 4 egi-assaults in dreadwyrm transe .

I think the best solution would be to make titan, ifrit, garuda ogcd spells and split their spells in the summoner bar, so that summoner can rush bahamut in a few seconds and then use the spells after according to the situation and without specific order
removing the summon gcd from 2.5s -> instant ogcd would put a cooldown of 30s for using elemental summons again,
this would make gameplay less slow and give the summoner real choices then whether they could use the Ifrit Combo, Garuda, or the Titan Combo whenever they want and with no time limit after use of bahamut.

For the problem of Demi-phoenix there are 2 possibilities, either giving the choice of burst with bahamut or phoenix depending on what you want from DPS or support such as the pvp system,
either make phoenix an ogcd which puts a regen or shield on the team and gives us 4 stacks of fountain of fire which replaces ruin 4 and a recharge of 120s.

basically the use of the 3 ogcd garuda, ifrit, titan unlocks the 3 gems which allow Bahamut to be summoned very quickly, then after using bahamut the summoner spends the spells of the respective summons in the order he wishes before the elemental summons are up again,
with this system they could also replace the 3 basic elemental summons by Shiva, leviathan and ramuh during the recharge of 30s.

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Originally Posted by remiff

snip

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uhmm I admit I missed your point, I may have missed something with my reasoning. My proposition also works with the current rotation: when you summon Titan you have 4 topaz rites as usual and you have 4 Mountain bursters. If the 4 mountain busters oGCDs were untied by topaz rite, you could use them as the oGCD during titan. If we now assume that topaz rite does less damage than ruin 3, a hungry dps, if he doesn't need high movement, would prefer to use "Ruin 3 > Mountain burster > Ruin 3 > Mountain burster > Ruin 3 > Mountain burster > Ruin 3 > Mountain burster " instead of topaz rite. Assuming Mountain burster has a % chance of doubling topaz rite's damage at this point instead of using Ruin 3, the player should be careful to use topaz rite to get even more damage. In this way we have:
1) the player must choose whether to do more stationary damage or have more mobility
2) the player must be careful to vary his rotation in case of proc
3) the player must be careful to manage the time and not to exceed with resources

This thing already exists more or less with the smn before 72 but is then lost. Before 72, emerald ruin 3 does less pps than ruin 3, but is instant. then the smn is put to choose whether to do more damage and use ruin 3 or have more mobility and use emerald ruin 3.
This proposal is based only to make, in my opinion, the most boring evocation, less boring. Also, titan mobility would be used for a just cause and not because it has to be done

Anyway, I like your idea to make the smn rotation more interesting and frenetic overall.
I also like the fact that I have to use ogcd elementals as fast as possible in order to get into burst at the beginning and having other elementals inside the lego phase

Of course, it's completely different to how I had thought. i even would have added cast time to the various elementals ahahah In this way having a fairly stationary rotation I would have liked to find a way to manage carbuncle placement.
Giving him skills that involve good positioning: rescue, searing light, radiant aegis 2 (aoe), a heal with a reset cd when phoenix appears, a dot aoe to position.
For the dot I had also thought about the possibility of resetting the timer every time the carbuncle re-enters the area : position the dot under pet -> move the pet out of the dot area -> reposition the pet in the dot area to reset the timer (which might sound silly, but between base rotation and game mechanics it might not be so straightforward in practice) ah clearly the dot cannot be as strong as garuda's. I am not so clueless as not to consider that this dot can get buffs and with the timer reset continue to have them.
Yes, the toilet brings advice ahahah

on phoenix I think the your first option is the smartest choice to make. the oGCD one would be a utopia, but realistically I expect more the first option. Knowing me I will hardly ever use it t.t but it sure makes more sense than it does now.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

uhmm I admit I missed your point, I may have missed something with my reasoning.

on phoenix I think the your first option is the smartest choice to make. the oGCD one would be a utopia, but realistically I expect more the first option. Knowing me I will hardly ever use it t.t but it sure makes more sense than it does now.

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What they could do is cast 1.5s/2.5s gcd on bahamut and add the automatic version like the pheonix everlasting flight spell for bahamut: Megaflare + ahk morn and deathflare to make it the ideal risk taking and burst phase,
since they want to remove the summoner resurrection for 7.0, they could just limit its use to increase phoenix support and interest for example:
Phoenix is summoned and use everlasting flight + every spell are instant cast but overall less potency than bahamut + Renkindle and 1 stack of instant rez ( basic rez deleted),
phoenix would therefore be ideal in situations that require mobility and support but at the cost of a DPS decrease.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by remiff

What they could do is cast 1.5s/2.5s gcd on bahamut and add the automatic version like the pheonix everlasting flight spell for bahamut: Megaflare + ahk morn and deathflare to make it the ideal risk taking and burst phase,
since they want to remove the summoner resurrection for 7.0, they could just limit its use to increase phoenix support and interest for example:
Phoenix is summoned and use everlasting flight + every spell are instant cast but overall less potency than bahamut + Renkindle and 1 stack of instant rez ( basic rez deleted),
phoenix would therefore be ideal in situations that require mobility and support but at the cost of a DPS decrease.

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That seems pretty fair to me. I would only find a way, as it was for the old smn with manage stacks of ruin 4, to still have a minimum of mobility under bahamut. This is to hypothetically make the smn compatible with certain raid mechs

imo all Smn needs is one additional dot..
..
want more challenging, play Blm or hard content

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

imo all Smn needs is one additional dot..
..
want more challenging, play Blm or hard content

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It is clearly not a credible argument that you offer us.

This post is legendary

Just...give me my dots back and ability to spread them with miasma. Maybe a new gauge that gradually gets filled up by dots which allows you to summon something new when it's full or perform some kind of attack so that the "DOTS R POINTLESS" crowd shuts up.

one dot on highe content is already enough, spreading it would very nice
.... but on easy / notmal smn will still remain a sleeping pill, but its fine if some classes renain easy in easyv/ normal content
.... while on hard content, shuffling your primals & skills within them, and now getting that dot off as optimal timed as possible, is no huge change, but adds one extra layer (really missed by smn fans), which shouldn't be hard to implement (and maybe allow a slight dps increase, smn / caster need badly)

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Leviathan.

Ramuh.

Shiva.

That's. It.

Please. Don't overthink this. Don't do something weird and pointless.

We don't need "Ruin 5".

We don't need "Summon Bahamut II".

We don't need "Energy Vacuum".

We don't need some weird fourth gauge that we consume to ride Susanoo around like a mount for 15 seconds and force enemies to engage in Active Time Events.

Please. Don't try to "subvert expectations". Don't.

Just do the thing.

Just give us the rest of the Classic Final Fantasy Summons™.

Just do it.


"But the Lore says that they need to come from a weird mutated Carbuncle gem, or something!"

Okay sure, here:

• Aquamarine Leviathan
• Amethyst Ramuh
• Sapphire Shiva

There, done. Let's move along.

"B-But you can't summon Shiva! That's blasphemy!"

Sir and/or madame. We've been carting around Louisoix's desecrated memory like a designer handbag, in direct disrespect of his final wishes, for 4 years now. The ship of sanctity sailed back in Shadowbringers.

What matters now is, "Will this increase pre-order purchases if it appears during a Live Letter?" And the answer — which SE's board of directors will be happy to hear — is a resounding, YES!

So not only will this make Summoner players happy, but it will also increase SE's revenue, which can then be reinvested back into Forspoken 2. Win/win! (?)

And anyway, you can think of it as honoring someone's memory, rather than an enslavement — since we are, after all, just play-doh'ing Carbuncles into effigies of Primals... not actually performing a true summoning.

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Yes please, I loved the new SMN but it just feels incomplete. I need the rest of the summons.
Also, Odin. It could be another option for the LEVEL 100 ULTIMATE SUMMONER ATTACK.

Well, seeing a part of FF16's use of Eikons, I can see where some of that idea went into each other for that and XIV's summoner.
>Level 90 summoner
>Can only summon a measly 5 summons.
I worry that SE will use the caster DPS slot for 7.0 to try and steer the ship, but it's going to put them in a lose lose situation. If they don't do anything for the concerns, then people are just going to jump ship and consider it a dead job, but if they do a drastic shift and don't include any new caster, then people will assume they used the spot for the sake of it.
But summoner needs the other 3 primals to liven things up a bit. Hell, make any support or utility based on a summon's "skill" as well. If there's a primal that would fit for keeping the rez, then there's that option as well.

As long they don't make me press 50+ buttons they can do whatever, really gets old when having to press so many buttons.

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Originally Posted by Laytnor

Just...give me my dots back and ability to spread them with miasma. Maybe a new gauge that gradually gets filled up by dots which allows you to summon something new when it's full or perform some kind of attack so that the "DOTS R POINTLESS" crowd shuts up.

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I think the ability you are looking for is Bane, Miasma was just another DoT with a different timer.

This is the greatest thing I have ever read... The only thing I would suggest is Leviathan be sapphire and Shiva be aquamarine (ice element is already usually colored a light blue or near white in this game, I think), and for summons to have cast bars for suspense/impact. The slow GCDs for Ifrit phase can be moved over to that

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Originally Posted by DustyBlue

This is the greatest thing I have ever read... The only thing I would suggest is Leviathan be sapphire and Shiva be aquamarine (ice element is already usually colored a light blue or near white in this game, I think), and for summons to have cast bars for suspense/impact. The slow GCDs for Ifrit phase can be moved over to that

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Shiva's weapons (unupgraded, lower ilvl versions with no glow) were called Shiva's Diamond Axe etc, I don't see why they wouldn't use Diamond for her

delete gemshine spam

I will personally would like to have something of 2.0 and 6.0 smn mix where it debuffs and some sort of way to control summons with like the kind of system it has now would make it more interesting or have the 90 smn abilities as the regular smn abilities and add the debuffs to mix in rotation or something like that I kinda miss giving dots up the ass with shadow flare and then burst mode.

Nah, we'll just get "Lunar" primal upgrades. Instead of Fire/Wind/Earth aspect spells, we get generic purple beams of energy.

Garuda's ground DoT (I forget the name) just becomes Shadowflare.
Lunar Bahamuat and Ifrit already exist so it won't be hard to code them in without much issue there.
That just leaves Phoenix, Garuda and Titan's models that need upgrades and I can totally see them reusing Eden Garuda and Titan and P3 Phoenix modes for those with a purple shading.

I hope that I'm wrong but the odds of this happening aren't exactly 0% either.

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Originally Posted by Sinesters

As long they don't make me press 50+ buttons they can do whatever, really gets old when having to press so many buttons.

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Making me press 3/2 buttons over and over gets older much faster for me :)

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Originally Posted by Sottiri

Making me press 3/2 buttons over and over gets older much faster for me :)

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It could've been worse. They could've made Gemshine just replace Ruin when a Primal was active.

Honestly, I'm convinced the only reason they didn't do that, was cause then SMN's hotbar would be even more barren that it already is. I put Physick on my bar just to hide the void of nothingness that is SMN