Yoshida-san: Please Give Us a BETTER System for Relics and Future 2.0 Challenges!

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

100% drop rate or bust huh? hah i am so glad whiners here are just the 3% of entire population.

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no kidding, thanks for the clarification btw on that drop rate, now im curious about something else

the top 3 drop seal, its %, or more importantly, can it drop from a rank 1 hamlet...

I dont think we'll see lv1 for a while with everyone spamming turn ins XD

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

I dont think we'll see lv1 for a while with everyone spamming turn ins XD

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on balmung we probly will, i dont think we saw a level 2 for 2 weeks before today

i bet its back to level 1 by monday here

I can't believe it but I'm in agreement with the OP.

Less RNG, more effort.

/signed

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Originally Posted by Dragon

I can't believe it but I'm in agreement with the OP.

Less RNG, more effort.

/signed

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im loving people who are ONLY reading the op at this point and dont see that the drop rate was raised

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Originally Posted by LackingLadyLover

I'd say it would take roughly a year to get a AF weapon.

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Better tell those people who are pretty much done the quest allready to slow down then.

Drop rate wasn't raised; higher level chest for over 60k points with better drop rate was introduced in the god-forsaken hamlet. That fact is only a very teeny tiny part of the OP's post however.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

im loving people who are ONLY reading the op at this point and dont see that the drop rate was raised

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I love it that you're always making ASSumptions about other people.

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Originally Posted by Dragon

I love it that you're always making ASSumptions about other people.

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it isnt an assumption if its true, you can tell the difference

well, you cant, but still

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

it isnt an assumption if its true, you can tell the difference

well, you cant, but still

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I read the entire thread, so yes, it was nothing more than an ASSumption. But hey, keep on rolling like a twit like you always do.

60k chest has a slightly higher drop rate it seems. Seals aren't a big deal really. It's the double melding that is giving me heartache. Getting the obelisk without purchasing it is annoying enough, but needing 2 savage mights is killing my wallet. It really shows compared to something like WHM weapon that need MND materia lololol

It's expensive because people rarely spiritbond the slot that drops savage mights. We've gotten like 20+ savage mights last spiritbond.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

It's expensive because people rarely spiritbond the slot that drops savage mights. We've gotten like 20+ savage mights last spiritbond.

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im so glad i dont have to get that one lol

but when it comes to spitbinding, the cost of the materia really is nil if people wouldf not be lazy and do it themselves
then it becomes the cost of the weapon itself over and over depending on how long it takes you

but as usual, worst case scenero is what people will focus on

your 80% drop rate doesnt matter, people will focus on the 20% who wont get it every time and that 20% who wont get it every time


people really are spoiled and want everything always no matter what

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Better tell those people who are pretty much done the quest allready to slow down then.

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And how many months do you think they invested into farming gil, seals before the patch, materials, and so forth? I'd say at least 8. So, from scratch, its about a year with normal play hours of 6-11 PM.

I guess I better count all the time I've played the game to count how long it takes me to do anything.

Took me over a year to beat Garuda.

*Edit*
Sorry for the snide comment, but I hope you see what I'm saying. Hell I farmed someone materials for a snarga(Bow?) and it took him no money and little time to get it at all.

The "Time" commitment is extremly subjective. I bet even start to finish if someone started a new character it would take far less than a year hell I bet with support of friends (Who all started at level 1 the same time you did) it would take maybe 2 months from level 1-50 to get your AF weapon.

For those citing FFXI as example, it took me 2+ years to make my Claustrum (BLM for life) earning enough $$$ to buy all the currency.

Note that when it was first introduced, Dynamis required about 2 alliances to run, so you need an LS of over 30 people to HELP you make 1 relic...assuming that it is "you". So much drama back then lolz.

Yes, some finished in ~6 months but many of those who do mainly used some shady means. The few legit ones were either super-hardcore or had support of many many nice people.

Yes, you can solo Dynamis in FFXI at lvl 99 but that was then.

Despite the RNG, these requirements are definitely a lot more palatable. Mining HQ ore is about 10%. Double IV meld is 10-18%.

This is lv50.. isn't even considered relic time or even true endgame. I wasnt even expecting the relic quest to be that long... owww well. Not everyone can own the weapon or its not even considered good.

You know I'd be fine with all of this if they only removed the whole using crafted items bit. Hamlet Defense seems like a pain in the ass but I'm okay with that. Tedious but at least everyone has an equal shot. When dealing with double-melds on a ridiculous thing like class weapons (which are likely to go up in price within the next few days as everyone attempts this.) it's a step that should easily be passed upon. The only ones who are going to benefit off this is crafters who can easily jack up their prices.

So unless you're a crafter and gatherer yourself you're SoL at the mercy of relying on others to do it for you or praying you've got friends/LS members who can do it for you.

If 2.0 only goes into Roll dyce, Luck......im out. I dont have time to play 7 days / week to get all those crap done(dont forget to lose your family, friends, school and work to play MMO). And i guess that the 9 seals are lost after getting 1 weapon and you have to re-do all this damn roll dyce luck all over again if you want a 2nd relic weapon.........comon!

I skimmed through that first post, but...

Really?

This is getting ridiculous. I would totally be down for boycotting this game if we could get enough people to sign on to make it effective. Think of all the frustration and wasted time we'd eliminate in the end.

Player feedback regarding drop rates and random numbers has been pouring all over the forums and we're ignored time and again.

I think I'm now more frustrated with the company than the game.

We want steady progress, not random/no progress!

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So unless you're a crafter and gatherer yourself you're SoL at the mercy of relying on others to do it for you or praying you've got friends/LS members who can do it for you.

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Well they already said in big red letters that its gonna be time consuming.
You can't get a relic in FFXI without a 100 craft and a weekly income of 1m gil either.

I would just like to point out that given enough time in XI you could at least accomplish something like a relic weapon. In XIV it is just not the same because there is a huge chance that you can spend many hours in a day with absolutely no progress towards your goal. This is a mistake and turns people off from wanting to continue.

Not to mention getting 60k chest in hamlet is not possible for every LS nor is a speed run in CC or AV. In XI you could enter dynamis with a group of like-minded adventurers and even if you couldn't beat shadowlord you could still work towards multiple other goals and feel like you accomplished something regardless of the final outcome. Here in XIV if you screw up, someone disconnects, power goes out, whatever, your run is done.

If they are going to stick with the RNG thing at least lower the difficulty of the raids and hamlet defense so that its possible for more casual groups to still work towards their goal, even if it may be slower than what a hard core group can accomplish.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

To: Yoshida-san and the FF14 Team

Seeing the requirements for just opening up the Quest for the Relic Weapons (not even earning the final Relic), I have one plea:

* Please STOP relying on the "Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rate" to use as a Time Sink to keep the players busy. :(

We realize you have to keep the players busy while you work hard on 2.0. Many of us are *fine* with Long Term Goals and needs to draw out content.

But NOT through the current "Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rate" style of rewards we've been suffering through from Ifrit Weapons to Darklight to Materia Melding and Primal Seals, and now with the rest of the steps of the prerequisites for the Relic Weapon Quest (and this isn't even the final step).

For those that don't know, thanks to Sniper and other veterans we've confirmed that the steps just to activate the Relic Weapon Quest are:



Yoshida-san, this is essentially just "Rolling the Dice / Gambling / Playing the Lottery." It emphasizes REPETITION and DUMB LUCK to stretch out content.

I realize you can't create brand-new, detailed Story-based Missions that are full of Unique Monsters that we'd have to take down (for example, Chains of Promathea's Story Missions (early days)) since you're focusing on 2.0.

But using Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rates to make things last longer *doesn't* make the content or rewards "difficult." It's simply the easiest, most mind-numbing way to stretch out content. :(

How about *rewarding* players for their *effort* and *skill* instead?

Here are some quick ideas using your CURRENT ASSETS (with minor work at best) that would make the Relic Weapon Prerequisites more fair and based on Player Effort and providing CHALLENGE:

• Prove Your Skill & Teamwork by: Defeating Aurum Vale & Cutter's Cry without dying (no deaths).

• Prove Your Tenacity and "Learn" to bond with your Weapon by: Defeating 500 Enemies (Equal Level or Higher, or whatever specific Mob) with your "Broken (early) Pre-Relic Weapon."

• Prove Your Valour by: Defeating Certain "New" Notorious Monsters (NMs):
  • Infected Great Buffalo: Re-use the SAME Buffalo NM Model, but buff it up.
  • Infected Uraeus: Re-use the SAME Uraeus NM Model, but buff it up.
  • Infected Mosshorn: Re-use the SAME Mosshorn NM Model, but buff it up.
  • Infected Dodore: Re-use the SAME Dodore NM Model, but buff it up.
  • "New" Guivre / Drake NM: Re-use the *awesome* looking Guivre / Drake monster (we already have in-game), but scale it up 20% and balance the damage on its moves.
    
    For those that have never ventured to the farthest reaches of Eorzea, you should walk around and see these awesome looking creatures we have in-game. :) The Doomvoid Guivre, for example, looks amazing and glows when it attacks, etc. SE can easily turn this into an "NM" with some tweaks, without having to make a brand-new Model.
    
    http://ffxiv.zam.com/Im/image/177621
    http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Fi...voidGuivre.png

• Defeat All *3* Beastmen Strongholds using your "Broken Pre-Relic Weapon" Without Dying.

• Overcome the "Secret / Reverse Path" of [Dzemael / Cutter's Cry / Aurum Vale]" and gain the [Enchanted Item] at the end to continue. This would be re-using our current Dungeons, but let's say after you clear it (going forward), a new "Gate" highlights and you open up a Side Path (or run the dungeon in Reverse) with BUFFED UP Mobs, new Objectives, etc. (using the same mobs as before), etc. (Obviously Boss placement would be at the "end" of the new path / reverse dungeon path.)

• Incapacitate All Body Parts from [Certain NM] and Defeat them: This would challenge players to work on destroying various Body Parts of an NM before defeating them, and it would emphasize, weaving in and out, avoiding attacks from various sides, overcoming the Adds perhaps, while breaking down a Boss.

I'm not saying these are the best ideas (at all), but they all are MUCH BETTER than rolling the dice and playing the Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rate game that you have now.

Even the mundane task of "killing 500 Enemies" that I listed (with your broken Relic) is at least a *measurable* task that EVERYONE can gain the benefit from.

The key point is that it's much more palatable, encouraging, and desirable to know that you are making positive progress each time you effort, instead of just hoping and praying that you get the lucky DICE ROLL and you happened to get your drop for a Primal Seal (which you need 9 of from 3 separate Hamlets (that need to be in Stage 2, that need a 60,000+ Point Total, and that has a low drop rate), or a drop for your HQ Mats to craft one of the new hard Synths (Class Weapons), or you get the lucky roll for your Double Melding Materia on that Weapon to turn in.

And in addition to measurable progress (like a Point System, or # of Kills, or Ancient Currency (like Dynamis)), is the hope of something that also rewards more Skill and Effort instead of just pure dumb luck.

Yoshida-san, the new 2.0 Screenshots and Artwork and your new Interviews are all wonderful and encouraging, and it gives us hope.

But then at the same time, we get punched in the gut with YET ANOTHER "RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR / Dumb Luck / Gambling / Rolling The Dice" task with the Relic Weapon Upgrades.

Please reconsider the Quest Path for Relic Weapons, and especially for the *majority* of 2.0 End Game Content.

And note that we're *NOT* asking for everything to be "easy" or "given to us fast." Long Term Goals are OK (and I love them)! But we need to have Rewards Systems that actually reward Player Skill and Effort and provides Good Challenge, instead of just making us SPAM / Throw Ourselves at a certain task over and over and hoping for a Blind Luck Dice Roll. :(

There's NO skill in praying that you can Double Meld 2 Tier IV Materias onto your costly Class Only Weapon. It's just gambling and rolling the dice.

Same for hoping you get 9 Primal Seals dropped into your inventory, spamming the same Hamlet Defense over and over.

2.0 shows *so* much promise. Please don't ruin our expectations and demoralize us with any more of this Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rate-style content.

Thank you!

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Yet another perfectly well put and valid thread about the stupidity of the current
"RNG everything" system that will somehow miss the DEV's and Yoshi's eyes thus
not taken under consideration.
Don't expect their reply in here peeps.

Even knowing the 2.0 website and more information is coming after E3, I find that I can't get psyched even about 2.0 anymore.
What if this is really the future style of the best "shinies" in XIV? Imagine a level cap rise, and the first section of the patch notes details the ever-heightening twenty-step absurdities that the lucky lifeless few must do for a shot at upgrading their weapon. I'm calling it now: double-melding the relic weapon itself for the second upgrade, and having to start from the beginning with each break.

Honestly, this is the worst I've felt about XIV in the entire two years.

Man people are over-reacting just a smidgen here.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

smidgen

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I lolled!

Ya you totally right, RNG is just fine the way it is. We can all
rely our entire progress in this game on our LUCK and the amount of time we
can spend to the game daily instead of our skillz. totally makes sense.

Unlucky people u can stop playing right now. no need to go on. lol.......

It's RELIC weapons...
This meant to be hard to get, only few who have patient and dedication can have it.
It doesn't mean it's for everyone.

The one that can wield those weapons will be praise from community for their hard work.
Do you guys expect to get relic weapon in 2 weeks of playing nonstop?

This is ultimate item and it should take many many months to complete it not just few weeks.
Face it and enjoy it.

i will support the OP if it says to me that i need to kill over 5000 monster to charge my weapon.

It would have been better to have postponed these kinds of weapons until 2.0 was up and running fully rather than trying to fit it into the currently available content. Random luck is not something I want to see be continued past this version, but with the amount of it being implemented it's hard to discern whether the trend will continue or if it is simply being used as the easy way to stretch content.

I would prefer a ridiculous amount of an item to be obtained, of which at least one of the item is guaranteed to drop in the event it comes from, than only need a few items that have a random chance to appear with an amazingly tiny drop rate. For someone soloing, 25k seals can take a while to get but at least you know each time you get some you will eventually get there.

This is where looking back at XI would be a good idea. A lot of people wanted the relics, but only a few got that chance (talking about the old days, naturally) to actually finish one. Time is obviously a big factor in getting said weapons, and the same is seen here. And there is nothing wrong with that, providing that it is possible to see that every second of that time turning into progression. When it comes to random number generators (and without knowing the nature of said RNG that is used here - it's not hard to throw extra rules into it like only calculating the RN 1 hour after the last drop of said item to really limit the amount of said items being instantiated) it's hard to know even roughly how long it could take you to get your item(s) and so the majority of players are going to be turned off straight away from pursuing even 1 weapon because they would rather spend their time doing something else in which that time does turn into potential progress.

There's also a missed opportunity to have people decide between speed running end game areas or not by having needed items drop randomly from normal mobs. Even if you needed 10k of an item and only got 50 out of the whole run (and even had to wait 15 minutes to get back in), at least there is progress as opposed to pure random luck.

The other downside I see is the same as with the primal weapons: Once a player has got the item(s) they need, they probably won't do that event again simply because they've either already burnt out on it (in which case they may not even start the quest line anyway) or have been burnt out trying to get these items. And if they are in fact extremely lucky and get them quickly, well then they are just going to be the envy of every other person still being whipped by the slave machine that is the RNG.

Luck will always be a factor when it comes to RNG (and that's acceptable) but there is a difference between being lucky at getting 1 of 3 items and being lucky in getting 100 items on a single run through an instance where the expected average is only 50. The latter is a good day, the former a damn relief.

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tl;dr

Put this kind of stuff off until 2.0 if you can't think of better, more happy-inducing ways of implementing a new system where you can actually build content around the quests rather than building the quests into existing content.

Players whining about stuff that don't exist yet are far fewer than those who have been shown the ridiculous nature of this quest and are now complaining.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I hope you understand the RNG is going to be part of everything you do in some way / shape / form.

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Probably, but, you see, it can be mitigated. Example? Garuda drop system. Ok, it was glitched, so it failed, but that's the way. If you're lucky you get weapon, if you're not, you still get tokens for defeat (and 2 if you're faster).

That's the perfect system.

And it's also used in most of modern mmos. You get tokens for whatever you do, and drops if you're lucky, but those are not required, since you at least get something.

Also raids drops are totally stupid in this game. Even in WoW (please, forgive me) when you beat a boss in a dungeon, EVERYBODY in the party get at least something, and it ALWAYS drops 1 final weapon for 1 class.

Why SE doesn't do it? Because there is not enough content to keep us busy, so we have to repeat AV/CC/Hamlet/Primals 300+ times to get 2-3 items we want. That's lame.

Hope it changes with 2.0, or I'll drop this game as I dropped XI.


At the moment I'm honestly waiting for new GC gear. Those weapons are even better then some primals, and only require GC seals and 5+ GC equips (that are better then AFs on some jobs). They will probably require a ridiculous amount of seals (like 10k I'd assume), but you don't need luck to get them, just hard work. And, guess what, you can obtain them in a lot of different ways, so it's not even boring.


More contents like Garuda or GC please. Stop this madness.

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Originally Posted by Petdo

It's RELIC weapons...
This meant to be hard to get

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I know right???
Its very hard to be lucky.. you have to have crazy skillz to
triple meld your character with Crazyassluck Materia IV!

A friend of mine got his Gambler's Crown 1st try and another one on his 2nd...

It took me insane hours of crafting and SBing full sets of Hempen clothes and Copper accessories,
hours of crafting gear over Lv 45 to meld, hours of minning for carbonized matter.
I ended up having to do about 200ish tries....

It wasn't hard for them.. it was very hard for me.

Thats ur idea of hard?

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Originally Posted by Disc

Playing casually just means it will take longer to get those end game items. I consider myself casual since I generally can't play more than 2 hours if that during weekdays, but there's nothing preventing me from scheduling end game content runs on weekends when I do have time.

For example: In FFXI I did weekend Sky/HNM or Sea/Limbus on rotation with my LS. With multiple 75's the only items I didn't have when I quit were relic weapons & RDM AFv2 hat, items even most hardcore players never got. Still tanked every endgame HNM & burned gods.

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Reminds me of me, and how I had hoped to be able to do things in this. While yes it'll take me 5x as long(real time) to get "XXX" but I know that after the same amount of play time as that guy I will have it.

Rolling a thousand sided die enough times for it to come up on 1 is nothing more than what we have here. It could happen on your first roll, or it could NOT happen until your 350000th.

I think the funny part is that the people that have relics in the first week won't be the ones that are "Good/Hardcore" it'll be the ones that either got lucky, which means that 12 year old that doesn't know what provoke does but was able to kill crabs for 6hrs a day to NPC to 50mil can be right there, or ones that roll the die until it finally comes up 1. If that's what hardcore means now, I can try so many times I'll always win, then hardcore has shifted from always trying to be the best player to I'm gonna sit here til I beat this slot machine. That's sad. Elitism used to mean I played the best, now it means I'm the most stubborn?

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Originally Posted by YuriSan

I know right???
Its very hard to be lucky.. you have to have crazy skillz to
triple meld your character with Crazyassluck Materia IV!

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Some of the hardest work I've ever done was flipping that coin til it came up heads 10 times in a row.

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Originally Posted by Petdo

It's RELIC weapons...
This meant to be hard to get, only few who have patient and dedication can have it.
It doesn't mean it's for everyone.

The one that can wield those weapons will be praise from community for their hard work.
Do you guys expect to get relic weapon in 2 weeks of playing nonstop?

This is ultimate item and it should take many many months to complete it not just few weeks.
Face it and enjoy it.

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The point is:
It will take a random amount of time, some will get them in a week going 1/1 on everything, others not for months of everyday attempts because they get mushroom stamped by the RNG. It's not hard. It's random. That's F'in stupid.

I can do hard, I can't do maybe 3times or maybe 33times or maybe 333times. I don't have enough time in my day/week/month to do random. I do however have enough time to do slow/painful/brutal/hard as nails/soul crushing/hellish progression through content where I WILL lose/die/wipe but EVENTUALLY(as in over time) ALWAYS see SOME progression. Not maybe this last 4 hours will be worth something ... roll the die ... nope today's gaming was a waste, stupid dice game.

Well off to do /random and hope ftw ... Yeah I didn't say I'm not gonna go for it, just that it's F'in stupid how we're doing it.

I really don't get how anyone is ok with the idea of random being the deciding factor.

"Hardcore/No Lifers(These terms are BS btw I use them but don't agree with their meanings now adays)" should be pissed that if I'm lucky I'll go 1/1 and be sporting a shiny new relic by next week while they might go 1/280 on everything and not have one for 6 months.

i do prefer Sea Sistem into Limbus for be a general way to do things get items drop off 100% of a very high challenge Rute events and mix then to pop 2-4 type NM to drop diferent type of Gear like 2-3 body pieces 100%



example


we alreadfy have 4 instances soo we can go ahead and have [hard mode] of each one... no Speed runs on it and 100% drop 1 special coin

lets says each drop 1 coin


Toto -> copper
DH -> Mythril
CC -> Silver
AV -> Gold


to pop Instanced NM will requir coins combinations like Sky-demy gods and limbus style combinated


lets says you want to pop NM for Tank Gear wise 100% drop 2 pieces

you must have gold+silver coins

for NM for mages copper+gold

NM for DD leather gear copper+silver

NM for DD armorer Gear mythril+gold

and a full Scale HNM pop off 4 coins combination to drop weapons 1 100% drop randown weapon goin into the loot.....


this is a way everyone will get progress and share into a move comunity game....

we have the basics WHATS WOKRS......

soo dont need to add new areas or BS just work what we have on a way we can see progress goin one 1 direction!!!!!

Oh boy, all that whining here reminds me of all the whine as the first server merge suggestion came up. SE took action and earned a whine+1 lol

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Originally Posted by Skinwalker

Oh boy, all that whining here reminds me of all the whine as the first server merge suggestion came up. SE took action and earned a whine+1 lol

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If there is a change, there is always whine. Sometimes it's wrong, sometimes it's right.

I don't believe ppl are wrong this time. This content is based mainly on luck, not skill. Can you deny it?

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Originally Posted by Petdo

It's RELIC weapons...
This meant to be hard to get,only few who have patient and dedication can have it.
It doesn't mean it's for everyone.

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Luck does not = difficulty. as yuri said above. person a gets lucky 1/1 double meld and manages to get 9 seals in 9 hamlets. person b might take 10 meld attemps and 200 hamlets. for person a all of that was a cake walk. done in a few hours laughing to himself I thought this was hard. person b is thinking wtf..... after weeks of crap luck. there is no consistency at all

Also I'm of the belief that Everything should be attainable by everyone who puts in the work to get it. If for example it took you a consistent 100 hours of gameplay to get a relic weapon then it shouldn't matter if you play 2 hours a day or 20 as long as at all points you make a little progress.

so in this 100 hours of gamplay example. person a may grind the crap out of this stuff and have a relic weapon in 5 days.
person b may only play a couple of hours each friday night and it''d take him 50 weeks to get done. as long as at the end of his couple of hours he's made progress the fact it may take him 50 weeks is less important to him as long as he can be sure he's making progress. and as long as at the end of those 50 weeks both players a and b have done the same amount of work / quests / whatever to get there weapon then they both deserve it.

in the current system player a can be lucky and have everything done in a few hours nonstop. player b may take weeks non stop. how is that consistent or in any way measurable.

hell i wouldnt mind if they turned round and said seals are 100% drop but you need 50 from each hamlet. least then i know it's a guaranteed 150 hamlets i had to do. as long as everyone else has to do t he same amount of work. whether i did 1 hamlet a week or 100 it's still a measurable progress

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Originally Posted by WinnipegJet

Seems fine to me. There should be difficult and time consuming content. Every FF has had elite items that required a significant time investment to obtain.

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but it's not difficult. going to relate to xi for a moment CoP. some really hard fights there in the early days. we'll take 6-4 airship as an example. would you
A:- rather make that fight was easier, grind it 100 times hoping that it drops the mystical item that let you progress to chapter 7. or
B:- would you rather leave it hard like it was in the early days where you may fail it 15-20 times but upon finally beating it you were guaranteed to progress to chapter 7.

dunno about you but for me its option B everytime

i cant get it, since the begining all the MMORPG had lucky as something u have to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by WinnipegJet

Seems fine to me. There should be difficult and time consuming content. Every FF has had elite items that required a significant time investment to obtain.

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How can you say it's difficult? Is hard to attach a materia to an item? You just need luck to double meld, it's not based on skills. Can take you 1 attempt or 2000.