As long as when I log in, the game actually lets me in, I don't care what steam numbers or any other numbers say.
FF has always been a niche game and community. I hope it remains that way.
We lost 70% of our player base half a year in
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06-23-2022, 11:27 AMDBriggs304
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06-23-2022, 03:59 PMhagarewhat about vermicelli code?Quote:
Originally Posted by technole
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06-23-2022, 04:24 PMAvoidy
That falloff happens a lot in this game because of how the development cycle for XIV works. If you look back at shb, the same trend occurred. A massive spike in activity when the new expansion launches, followed by a drop once people beat the expansion and realize there isn't much to do. Loads of people just play this game when the content drops, and they (understandably) don't stick around when nothing's happening. Square addressed this in that famous interview where Yoshi seemed fine with this and encouraged players to just play other stuff in the meantime.
I can empathize with your frustration. I love this game and wish I had more things to do when I logged in that felt personally meaningful. Even if it was just a mogtome event or something. But this is just how it is, and how it's been for a while. It'll probably get worse with EW since we'll have that additional month or whatever between new content drops. -
06-23-2022, 09:34 PMAkibaws
This is normal. You see the same trends in every MMO. People leave until a new patch. The only exception I've noticed is Lost Ark because it has major FOMO.
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06-23-2022, 09:43 PMIvtrixu mean botsQuote:
Originally Posted by Akibaws
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06-23-2022, 10:51 PMHanayumi
1)This is the norm for FFXIV, devs dont want folks to feel like they have to play and run this game like a daily chore, so a lot of people break after doing what they want to do
2) Post expansion has some of minimal amount of new additional content, but each adds something entirely new while updating current content
3) A hefty chunk of people bailed on steam cause of launcher/licensing issue -
06-23-2022, 10:59 PMKatt_Felista
It's the same thing every expansion, there are allways content drought between two patches, this year is no different then the last 10 years of this game's service.
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06-23-2022, 11:11 PMPaduduI play the game and have a lot of good to say about it. Doesn't mean I can ignore that the game has glaring problems in a lot of aspects, I think I've said before in a lot of ways this game is a 9/10 when it comes to some content - eureka, bozja, MSQ, presentation, ect.. and then you turn the corner and see hrothgar/viera, housing, healers and it becomes a 6/10. I think we're playing the same game thoQuote:
Originally Posted by Kes13a
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06-23-2022, 11:15 PMSqwall
NGL. After finishing this current savage tier (P3S nearly broke me), multiple EX trials (mounts), multiple unreals (mounts), dipping my toe in UCOB (not for me).
I took a break.
There are SOOOOO many games out there. Books. Movies. Sports. People.
I know it sounds weird, but sometimes I WANT to distant myself from the game and static group sometimes. Because when that next patch comes out...I log in and it's like seeing an old friend again. For me it's all or nothing style of playing.
Pulling up the duty finder and figuring out what I want to level...if I don't feel it....I don't even want to play. I log out and load up a different game.
Honestly, I have been playing WoW Burning Crusade Classic and just enjoying the ride to 70. Never thought I would even want to do that...but WoW was a good game during that time and it's still fun.
FFXIV is an anomaly in the MMO space that actually values your time. WoW and other MMO's had this FOMO feeling like no other. I know when I come back to the game I can catch up pretty fast, and it's better to let things take time in FFXIV. Blowing through the content isn't my goal. Taking my time and not feeling like I have to hurry.
This savage tier was my main goal for the game. I wanted to clear it before echo is allowed. Don't care about parses, don't care about perfection, and I don't strive for that. I just play the game and have fun with my static, and there are some things that I will remember from this savage tier. So many good times....and bad. (P3S...seriously) -
06-23-2022, 11:28 PMShougunI feel WoW is a few steps away from being great but has a weird direction and is not sure who it's trying to please most.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqwall
Like if you added more value your time and less FOMO to WoW, making it /more/ casual friendly, fixing up Garrisons to also include a housing component, ensuring using alts was essentially like changing your job in FFXIV- man I think you'd have some SERIOUS competition in that field of players. Stop being so weird with the story would be another. Like even on a bad day with FFXIV story I think to myself "at least we're not WoW" lol. There are good stories in WoW in the past and current, but it just seems like the quality and more particularly the referential quality is really all over. There are a lot of things the game does right, better than FFXIV I'd argue, but there are a lot of things that I look at WoW and I go 'hahahaha nope, smack me in the face and tell me in a more clear way you're trying to manipulate me and mess with my time".
One point that might be harder to 'fix' is they've seriously burnt their good will credits. So every 'meh' action is met with a lot of very negative media (more than FFXIV would have had for doing the same thing). I think Blizzard needs to be biting the bullet on a few things to gain that back, but clearly whoever is rolling in the cash at Blizzard doesn't think so lol.
Alternatively lean more into the crazy hardcore raids, though my supposition on that is it was, for all games, and will always be, the minority- so I'm not entirely sure going all in there is the best idea if you're wanting to gobble all the cash lol (particularly now that MMOs are frequently being designed with other groups in focus, back when WoW was young WoW was actually 'the' friendly MMO for casual minded players). BUT if you did that at least those players would have a home like no other, and you can see those people have pretty epic high energy stories that mean a lot to them. Like to me- the guy who leads WoW has an obvious bias that is clearly put into the game (he's pretty hardcore raider, at least in a general sense of it- like Yoshida but I think Yoshida does better separating his own personal desires over what might be good for the game.. even with people up in arms about BLM), so there is a lot of FOMO and a lot of content directed at a narrow band of players with large bias to many rewards on top of it with sometimes quite unfriendly reward systems (WoW has waffled a few times and I have read about quite friendly systems, but it seems they then remove those so.. yolo). That they have the Garrison system and have for a while been like "housing doesn't fit into WoW" is evidence to me that perhaps they had (imo) misaligned perspectives to what is more and more a majority type environment (be friendly to your casuals, respect people's time, stop trying to scare everyone with FOMO, making a place to call home away from home is important, stop showing up as the company that preaches to players but then harasses their own employees, wild ideas..., etc). -
06-24-2022, 12:12 AMSqwallCurrent WoW could be great if it looked at the game less as a "personal goal driven" and more as a "shared experience driven". Things that resonate with me are the lead up to the goal...not the goal itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Take this current savage tier. I will probably forget that feeling of elation after dropping Hespheros. But I will NEVER forget the frustration of FOF, FOA, Flow 3, Chains, Pinax, Curtain Call, etc. etc. Overcoming those moments was the REAL goal. Finished P4S was kind of sad for me....it's over...it's done. I won't have that moment again. The only thing left is all the memories and shared experience I had with my static group. Talking about strategies. Listening to the healers talk about when to use strong heals and mitigation (no idea what there talking about unless its AST). My OT and I on the same wavelength an understanding when to shirk, voke, stance on stance off, invuln, toss out nascent to them, gives me TBN.
Those are the moments I will cherish....
Climbing a mountain is long and arduous, followed up with shear elation of reaching the summit as your reward....so is the climb back down...
WoW was weird as when it came out it was unlike ANYTHING out there. I have life long friends that I still talk with till this day that I met back in 2004 when I was 21. WoW came at a VERY opportune time in my life and I found an outlet for myself through the game.
FFXIV gives me that in neat little packages that I can continually visit. Once I complete the goal the only thing I remember is everything I encountered along the way. I almost never remember achieving the goal. Is that wired? -
06-24-2022, 12:54 AMShougunWhy would that be weird~Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqwall
Enjoying the experience is usually a main part of the fun of it all. Of course this does vary from person to person, so you can't always hit a one size fits all formula. For example I'm sure some people felt elated getting their ARR relic after all the FATE grind.. to me that was like a slow form of torture lol. Though that's where I think, generally, FFXIV does pretty good at giving many different types of players the opportunity to experience something in the means they'd like (most of it being a function of time). If I think "wow that grind is just.. that's just pure awful" for the most part I know I can just wait and then it'll be more my pace later, meanwhile the people who do need a bit of 'pain' (to create powerful memories) .. there it is lol. Of course FFXIV also tends to be a bit more friendly with the pain as they've added more and more systems that are kinder like "ehy good job! now here is something relevant, cherry on top of your rush you're feeling!" rather than some MMOs (particularly older school designed) which are like "good job, but you got nothing.. so.. go again amirite?".
Of course there is rush to that pain as well, for people who try to get their kirin asode, club, turtle shield or whatever fraction of a decimal drop rate item lol, but I look back at such things and think to myself- way too much pain to offset that moment and specifically a very real chance that all that pain is not worth it 'ever' (very real chance you could spend hundreds of hours for a 0.X% drop item and never get it, meanwhile you'll be filled green with envy and maybe even rage when some person 'gets it on their first try'). Alternatively, especially in context of those hyper painful designs, I can simply play a fantastic game that doesn't require almost anything perceivable as 'pain' and still have an amazing time- for example.. witcher 3. I remember that game exceptionally well, and never did I really feel like I was being disrespected or taken advantage of nor did I feel like "there is a high chance my efforts here are being manipulated or will likely be worthless" (unlike high pain grind / low drop rate designs). I'm very much in favor of respecting my psychological health, my time, and trying as best as possible to view that journey as 'fun'.
I think that's why for me, on the more casual side, I occasionally talk about movement systems like.. you know... it sounds silly but.. I think you should invest more in how you navigate the world... the journey itself is gameplay! Or in a similar thought but different system, ensuring the open world has a bit more of a journey itself (I did like the ShB gem system, but still need some more ideas I think for their open world - with other MMOs we can reference as examples.. not like we're waving blankly in the air and saying "do something", or I've, suggested ideas and you can see ideas out there in action).
I think that's a thing WoW would benefit from by killing their love of FOMO- there is some content that you can't just wait till it becomes your style. More often WoW is like "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY", now of course there are MMOs far more hardcore than WoW lol, but such an unnesccary approach that prays on the minds of players in a sort of "how can I manipulate you into being forced to take action now" and some of that might just be general game design 101 you have to consider.. but it's also blatantly obvious and therefore feels insulting. To which I give FFXIV credit for because there are many times where I think FFXIV's team looks at something as says, "you know what, we could abuse the psychological fear more but we're going to not do that anyways".
Coming back around more to your point though- absolutely the journey itself is important. That's where I think of course those hardcore raids shine, I mean I DO NOT WANT TO DO THEM- AT ALL (because to me it's going to be A LOT of time lost to gaining nothing, given my limited time and perhaps luck if I find a group that can learn or can't.. even worse then), but ... you can read those stories, you can hear Yoshida talk about those stories, I have those stories, they're pretty powerful. It's why I love that rolling mountain design FFXIV generally uses, 'for the most part', everyone gets to approach the content in a way that will suit them.
There are amazing stories in WoW about that high energy journey, but overall I still feel the game doesn't do a very good job of respecting time, helping encourage players to enjoy majority content via functions (like time, though they do 'do that' just things like FOMO are in direct opposition), and in general the company itself seems like it's very addicted to psychological manipulation / abuse currently :(. -
06-24-2022, 01:27 AMSqwallOK. THAT actually got me right in the heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
We now understand one another.
/cheers -
06-24-2022, 01:40 AMAyuhraTry Guild Wars 2 if you haven't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqwall
Huge open world, great wardrobe (glamour) system, fun story and it is horizontal progression. You might spend a year crafting a legendary but that legendary will be great for the rest of the game. Nearly everything is account bound.
FFXIV still has more polish, being a subscription game, but its weaknesses are things GW2 excels in and GW2's weaknesses are things FFXIV excels in. They make good palate cleansers for each other. -
06-24-2022, 01:48 AMShougunNani?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayuhra
GW2 is horizontal based game? Or how does that work, sounds cool lol.
Does it create the classic MMO problem where people are like "yeh.. you don't have these three different staffs to cast each individual spell on.. so we don't want you" -
06-24-2022, 01:53 AMDerio
This is normal considering we see a large drop off during X.1 patches and a huge player spike in X.5 patches leading up to the next expansion.
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06-24-2022, 02:03 AMAyuhraBasically, you level up and leveling is the tutorial, but does still take a while. Once you are level 80 you will be level 80 forever, expansions don't lift the cap. You progress forward through story and gain experience called "masteries" that change things you can do in the world like better fishing, faster run speed in cities, quicker time to resurrect downed allies etc. Masteries do not make your character more powerful, just make the world more interactive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Different classes can have a number of different builds and some are meta but I've noticed the community is starting to ease up on that since hyper meta builds aren't needed outside the hardest content.
I haven't experienced instant content in it much, but so far it hasn't been on par with FFXIV's. So don't expect lots of dungeons and raids. Those are definitely there, but they are not THE end game experience.
GW2 does have world bosses though. Imagine FATES but crazier. Way crazier.
I think why I like playing GW2 and FFXIV is GW2 is buy to play and insane. FFXIV is an extremely elegant vertical experience. I feel like it is highly curated by the devs, they have an experience they want to guide you through. Guild Wars 2 once you are out on the world map you can do whatever you want. There is a story in GW2 to guide you, but you can just wander off from it. -
06-24-2022, 02:22 AMShougunThat was very informative thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayuhra
Sounds like it is as you described it, a good partner to FFXIV.
I've been trying to suggest FFXIV does I guess what you described GW2 has. Damnit GW2!.. (In context for FFXIV I was hoping SE would revamp it's gameplay assisted roleplay, which I feel is something they're a bit weaker on, via systems that allowed players to better exhibit whatever they were investing into- like a Dragoon might unlock no fall damage or charged jumping passive in zones they've unlocked flying, etc).
I feel I have to try them out now, long ago I was like "mounts with personality could be really cool!" (to which I was mostly told this isn't a racing game lol), but then GW2 came out with mounts that I hear from 'most' people as a really neat system. I usually point at GW2 for that (and I've watched the videos, it looks really fun), just didn't try it because I always felt worried about having too many online games biding for my time. But.. hearing they have a horizontal like system in place that isn't aggressively "get rekt cause you didn't play 24/7" is really nice.
I think the main thing that had me not go "oooh that game looks fantastic" is the graphics look alright. Not horrible, just say I think more recent WoW and definitely FFXIV look much better. Specifically FFXIV's combat effects are really pretty (in comparison to most MMOs to be honest).
But the systems I hear from them consistently sound appealing. Seems almost a bit unfortunate that they don't have a larger backing as whoever makes their systems seems quite capable (and friendly to players, the more I hear). Perhaps that's just the nature of being B2P though. -
06-24-2022, 02:34 AMAmpelioB
these 70% are the people that only log for story, nothing new here. You can see that around April there's a fluctuation that permeates until now, that's the actual player base for steam users.
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06-24-2022, 02:36 AMAyuhraGuild Wars 2 has the best mount system of any MMORPG out there, it's true. You have several mounts in the game with tons of skins for customization (but nearly all of them are in the shop which is a bummer). Each mount offers different types of movement. Gryphon glides, drake is like a helicopter but needs to land for rest, raptor is a horizontal leaper, rabbit is a vertical leaper, jackal creates portals etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
I think if GW2 sounds interesting to people they should try it out. The base game is free. You won't get masteries or elite specialization traitlines or mounts since those are all expansion features but you will have enough content to see if the game clicks with you. And if it does the expansion bundle is cheap. I will warn that expansions don't include a feature called "Living World". Think of Living World in GW2 as the update/"post MSQ" stories in FFXIV that take you from one expansion to the next. In GW2 you need to buy that separately. There is a lot in them like new maps, gear, etc that is worth having and they make the story make more sense. It is a weird system and one most people who play GW2 hope changes. The Living Worlds are free if you are active when they go live but they are a barrier to entry for new players. Since they are in the gem store you can farm gold and convert to gems to get them but it's still...obnoxious, frankly. -
06-24-2022, 03:43 AMMonsutaMan
Well, FFXIV was a popular game, because popular people played it.
It is not happenstance its predecessor was the most profitable game in the series until that WoW wave occurred.
Steam is not the entire picture, but the perhaps the most successful gaming platform....So a great snapshot of what is happening with a particular game. Could the drop be worst? We don't know....companies do not release bad press.......
Steam charts cannot be taken as an entire picture.
As someone who played Marvel Heroes, Kritika reboot, Landmark, Defiance to name a few, it cannot be ignored neither....... -
06-24-2022, 03:52 AMMonsutaMan
Also....The free login thing.
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06-24-2022, 05:12 PMVelKallorSteam is less than 10% and is not any kind of accurate metric.Quote:
Steam is not the entire picture
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06-24-2022, 05:25 PMLarirawiel
Those losts in the player base are normal for every theme park game. :) So i would not worry about that. :)
Cheers -
06-24-2022, 07:18 PMCarin-EriFOMO was a big factor in my leaving a game I'd played for slightly over a decade behind. Not going to name said game, as have no interest in discussing it out of context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqwall
I played said game on a daily basis from late 2011 until December 2021, when I realised I'd had enough - I had no tolerance left for the overwhelming mobile-gaming-cashgrab mentality that drives that game's business model these days. An overwhelming commitment to FOMO, gambleboxes (with preposterously low chances of winning anything worthwhile and the company refusing to disclose the odds), and 'micro' transactions that contradict the term (I don't consider £300 for a single-character unlock item to be a 'micro' transaction) at the cost of content. We're talking one or two new episodes, worth about 45 minutes of play time, every four or five months.
Personally, I find the FOMO fueled gaming sleazy. Its a model designed to coerce or funnel players into a specific activity which they don't necessarily like, but feel like they have to tolerate, in order to get a limited-time reward (the Devs can also then reference predictably-high engagement numbers as "proof" that players actually like that activity).
I refuse to be the sort of player who bemoans a game's business model and then gives them money anyway - that does nothing more than communicate the sort of nonsense you are willing to accept in the only language they understand/care about.
For me, FFXIV has been a breath of fresh air. None of that FOMO rubbish. No gambleboxes. No big-ticket bundles with triple-figure pricetags, and the content updates are consistent and engaging. -
06-24-2022, 09:08 PMSamSmoot
I have my NIN maxed out to mostly 600 gear (not doing savage), so my interest in him has declined. Just for something to do, I leveled a Summoner to 90 and gearing it now via tomestones and nutsacks. Hairstyles would give me about 1 minute of gameplay to check them out and ignore.
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06-24-2022, 10:30 PMAlyaNimfa
Someone get me an umbrella, the sky is falling!
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06-24-2022, 11:19 PMIvtrixsource?Quote:
Originally Posted by VelKallor
also it takes way less than 10% to identify patterns in a body of study -
06-25-2022, 12:45 AMDPZ2"FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn is estimated to have 1,854,888 players per day this month." (Source: https://mmo-population.com/r/ffxiv)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivtrix
The OP's graph from Steam, rounded up, is 26,000. That's about .014%, which is certainly way below 10%.
Stats indicate an average of 3,460,103 active players in Januay 2022 (right after 6.0 launch), and 3,682,079 active players in Jun 2022 (after 6.15 release with new Ultimate). It appears that the Yearly population chart has a dip down to about 600,000 active players in the mid-March to early-April time frame, before the 6.1 release.
Yeah, that means an 80% drop in the active player population for the last of a 4 month lull in new content, followed by 600% increase in active player population when the new patch came out.
And yes, the numbers are as dubious as any other when talking about populations for online games, although I trust them more than I do some count of the Steam gamer population statistics that say nothing about all of the console and PC users of FFXIV who do not play through Steam. -
06-25-2022, 01:37 AMZephyrMenodoraThe steam numbers are concurrent though, not total for a day. In content lulls I play 20 minutes a day to run a daily and log out, so since I'm assuming most people aren't logged in all day it's a bit hard to determine total daily users from steam.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
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06-25-2022, 01:53 AMLittleImpThis website gets debunked every single time it gets posted. It unironically estimates game populations based on the number of reddit users / activity in the games subreddit.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
At least Steam is providing a legitimate user count of some portion of the games population, and the trends tend to match up with trends seen in places like Lucky Bancho. -
06-25-2022, 01:59 AMNezeriusAh yes, mmo-population. The website that puts an MMO like Wildstar at #40, with a total player count of 1.35 million. Even lists a few player spikes in 2022!Quote:
Originally Posted by DPZ2
Y'know, the same Wildstar that shut down its servers in 2018. -
06-25-2022, 02:17 AMShougunThey play with their hearts!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezerius
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06-25-2022, 02:43 AMNaoki34That's 70% of 15% of the FFXIV community, all good, and what about the non-Steam, Ps4 and Ps5 accounts?Quote:
Originally Posted by hunkygladiator
And then it's still the norm, there's people for MSQ and content that lasts 2-3 weeks and people will come back for the next big patch.
There is only a minority who keep their subscriptions active and play at least once a day, like people who have a house and just like to play FFXIV daily for example.
It reminds me of the topics on WoW is dead every month for 10 years, everything is fine, I tell you!
It's almost as good as those who announce the end of the world for 2000, then 2012, then... -
06-25-2022, 03:38 AManhaatohttps://media.discordapp.net/attachm...02/unknown.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Naoki34
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06-25-2022, 07:49 AMMapleineI actually don't think it's even double digits. It's a really small part of the community, which makes sense as there's only negatives associated with buying the game through another arm of DRM.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryouma17
Game isn't any less healthy than the same point in StB or ShB though, anyone saying otherwise was probably not here. There's significantly more people around and groups up than the doldrums of 4.1 and 5.1, when Yoshi P said the game is still growing he wasn't running PR, it is.
Deliberately lying about your products health and status would also be an easy way to get it in trouble, this is why Blizzard simply stopped reporting numbers instead of starting to lie.
Now I just wish the unacceptably thin early expansion content would grow with it. -
06-25-2022, 11:00 AMStriker44Speak for yourself, please! As a casual player with a full-time job who only has a few hours a week to play, I found the early expansion content more than acceptable. I finished the MSQ and my first role questline almost exactly when the new Alliance raid dropped. Likewise it's just my opinion, but I was very happy with it :)Quote:
Now I just wish the unacceptably thin early expansion content would grow with it.
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06-25-2022, 11:41 AManhaatoI work 40 hour weeks and still think there’s next to nothing to do :shrug: and even so, I’d be fine with them loading us up with an overwhelming amount of content, even if I don’t have enough time to do all I want, as long as it’s not timegated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Striker44
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06-25-2022, 11:44 AMVelKallorHorsebiscuits.Quote:
also it takes way less than 10% to identify patterns in a body of study
"We interviewed 10% and that means that the other 90% think the same way"
No. Not even close. -
06-25-2022, 12:39 PMangelar_
this thread badly needs statistics majors