Endwalker is the most controversial expansion

When I got to that part in Endwalker and realized I was about to go back in time I audibly uttered 'Oh No' to myself in my empty house at the time.

Time Travel is and will always be a giant minefield to implement into a story and requires the utmost care and skill to successfully pull off without leaving giant plot holes.

In this instance, Endwalker tripped and landed face first into a shrapnel mine.

My main issue with Endwalker(a lot of other things annoy me too, such as hydaelyn's genocide, glorification of suffering, lack of consequences and bad time travel usage, but way less than this) is that they raised the stakes way too much , to the point it kind of ruins the future story for me. We defeated the civilization-ending blue chicken that managed to beat our godlike ancestor-selves with mostly our own capacities/power of friendship, so I don't see many ways how a future villain could come and cause us to struggle without feeling like Ran'jit for me, a random guy who could kick our asses pretty hard because reasons. We should have defeated Meteion with some kind of borrowed power(that couldn't be borrowed again, ever)or using some sort of device, spell, whatever, from some old civilization or even created by Hermes himself in case Meteion became dangerous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Snip.

---

What do you mean when you say '' backlash in response to Heavensward '' tho?
Are you talking about Heavensward as a whole or aspects of it?
Because what I see in regards to EW is really no different than with other expansions, the main difference is that we have memberberries and when we think of Heavensward we think of the completed expansion and not 3.0 etc.
I also think that perhaps because this was '' the end '' to '' the story '' ( I think you get what I mean ), that people will be significantly more touchy about issues they have.

We don't have the completed EW yet so I dunno how fair of a comparison it is really.
I don't really want to get too much into the story thing because I really just don't think that it's as '' controversial '' as people here say that it is, I see almost only praise towards it.
I do have some issues with it but not anything that enormous.
But there are certainly things I wish would've gone differently but I could say that about every other expansions MSQ too.
Or any other game for that matter too.

My issue when it comes to the story thing too and how people talk about it isn't that they didn't like it, it's the hyperbole and how personal it gets.
This isn't a FFXIV thing specifically tho I think it can be seen with other games too, people get very personal about it and almost act like the story broke into their house and beat up their dog and pooped on their carpet or something lol.

I don't think that you're wrong about the issues, but a lot of these issues particularly with Job design for example aren't as simple as right or wrong and I think it's an endless struggle trying to please everyone.
I really don't think that the Healer situation is easily solved, there are a lot of different players you need to juggle at the same time.
Which often means that you won't fully please anyone.

My hope and wish would be some added complexity and engagement, but that will also introduce problems for portions of the playerbase too and you'd see people take to the forums angry about that too.
We already have a fair amount of people who think that Jobs are too hard to play as it is even.
I don't exactly feel safe in the hands of every Healer I run with whether it's just dungeons or Savage as it is either.

I personally disliked the changes to MNK so much that I ended up switching altogether too.
It's not like I don't have a dog in the fight same with SAM, but these things happen every expansion.
And people also ignore the good changes and hyperfocus on what they dislike.

The devs are human beings and are dealing with millions of players at the same time, are they actually tone deaf or are we?
Or is it somewhere inbetween?
A vocal minority on the forums doesn't necessarily always represent the majority. It's a very difficult job to try and gauge this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ameliaw

My main issue with Endwalker(a lot of other things annoy me too, such as hydaelyn's genocide, glorification of suffering, lack of consequences and bad time travel usage, but way less than this) is that they raised the stakes way too much , to the point it kind of ruins the future story for me. We defeated the civilization-ending blue chicken that managed to beat our godlike ancestor-selves with mostly our own capacities/power of friendship, so I don't see many ways how a future villain could come and cause us to struggle without feeling like Ran'jit for me, a random guy who could kick our asses pretty hard because reasons. We should have defeated Meteion with some kind of borrowed power(that couldn't be borrowed again, ever)or using some sort of device, spell, whatever, from some old civilization or even created by Hermes himself in case Meteion became dangerous.

---

I didn't like Ran'jit at all in SHB, he reminded me so much of Kai Leng in Mass Effect lol...
I do agree with you on the stakes I feel that way in WoW too I think it's a problem with MMO's when you want to have '' moar coolerer and biggerer '' enemies to fight to make things more exciting all the time and escalate thing in terms of gameplay.
At some point things reaches a point where it becomes a bit ridiculous.

Like my character in WoW has fought and killed Gods, but next expansion I am struggling with a Murloc?
Okay...

Edit: I actually remember talking about this pre-EW too, that I was a bit worried about our characters being too powerful for the future.
Like what's the next threat and how could it be dangerous enough?
But yeah I feel like this has been an escalating thing throughout.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

It also left a very ugly question hanging in the air of just how much Venat/Hydaelyn knew was going to happen and just let it happen because "the future said so", and makes some instances where she claims have been trying to prevent tragedy (Such as with the First and the flood of light) feel like she was going through the motions because it had to happen in order to maintain the loop.

---

The devs explaining that letting Emet escape the sundering was a conscious decision only makes this hangup funnier. Poor Arbert was damned to watch his world burn 12k years before he was born.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

As much as I enjoyed Emet & Hyth, being in another situation of 'you're Azem but not really' wasn't particularly satisfying.

---

What other situation was there?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

I am a fucking white mage. Death star laser is not part of my fantasy.

---

Gimme that shit then. I'll use it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rokke

The devs explaining that letting Emet escape the sundering was a conscious decision only makes this hangup funnier. Poor Arbert was damned to watch his world burn 12k years before he was born.

---

Ardbert's story is colossally dark now. Not only morbid context given to this already heartbreaking quote:

"We did everything right, everything that was asked of us, and still--still it came to this!"

But Hydaelyn was already shady about leaving his soul to wander the First for a century, now it was all just part of the plan. He was born to suffer but, then again, that seems to be Venat's jam. It's even more twisted when you realize she has a history of using and abusing the Azem soul, regardless of incarnation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Haruka_R

What other situation was there?

---

All of ShB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

All of ShB.

---

You mean, towards the end?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

No.

Is what I would say, but it won't let me cause I need more characters. So instead I will say that I liked the old PVP in Frontlines. I liked being my role in PVP. Everyone is going off about how the pvp changes are somehow better for class fantasy.

I am a fucking white mage. Death star laser is not part of my fantasy. Healing my party is.

---

Hah, frontline always was and always will be a joke. Three teams of 24 results in individual contributions meaning nothing, and the big teams means that RNG and the more coordinated death ball wins the game. Also the pvp healers are way more fun now then they ever have been thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

Ardbert's story is colossally dark now. Not only morbid context given to this already heartbreaking quote:

"We did everything right, everything that was asked of us, and still--still it came to this!"

But Hydaelyn was already shady about leaving his soul to wander the First for a century, now it was all just part of the plan. He was born to suffer but, then again, that seems to be Venat's jam. It's even more twisted when you realize she has a history of using and abusing the Azem soul, regardless of incarnation.

---

This is when I think back to Elpis and when we were forced to reveal what happens in our future, and Venat says "but why would I ever do such a thing?" That's what led me to believe at first that her development into the ultra shady figure of Hydaelyn was probably born of desperation, and her methods continued to become more desperate and underhanded as she tried and failed in the next 12k years to find a way to actually put an end to the Final Days. Finding an iteration of Azem, grooming them into being one of her heroes, and seeing what they can do. It's why up until the end of that arc I was SO expecting her to say "I'll make sure I don't end up like that, ever" and either creating a new timeline or finding herself slipping into those ways no matter how hard she tried not to. But no, we told her all of the lives she would expend and she was like "ok cool I'll be sure to do that in the future thx." In the end she had a choice and ended up choosing the path of most cruelty because we told her to. I think the 2 week delay was purely about adding in her escaping the memory wipe and then the lines at the end of Elpis about "but they wont buhleeeeeev me if I tell them what happened" just to change the context of the cutscene that followed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Necrotica

SOCIAL CONTENT-Once they add Island Sanctuaries that will be the equivalent to instanced housing, everything will be fine. Yoshi P came to me in a dream and said it would be so. I will not believe otherwise.

---

Except the part where Yoshi-P literally said it's not instanced housing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

The problem with Endwalker was that it attached a causal loop to one of the most fundamental far-reaching events in the game's lore that shaped the world and the motivations of several characters in ways both direct and indirect.

It also left a very ugly question hanging in the air of just how much Venat/Hydaelyn knew was going to happen and just let it happen because "the future said so", and makes some instances where she claims have been trying to prevent tragedy (Such as with the First and the flood of light) feel like she was going through the motions because it had to happen in order to maintain the loop.

I feel like it cheapened a lot of the decisions made by various characters in general. IE, the context for Emet-Selch saving us from Elidibus was no longer just a matter of him having been convinced to place faith in us and the sundered; nope, he already knew us personally beforehand and that we were to be instrumental in stopping the Final Days.

---

I think I’ve made my feelings on the “she made sure things happened as we described” reading clear elsewhere so I’m gonna let that bear lie. What I will ask however is why is the ambiguity really a problem? It isn’t necessary to understand to make sense of the plot, as having several wildly different interpretations that all can work shows that it’s not a requirement for the story. It’s not a failure of the writing when it’s meant to be up for interpretation then, which given Yoshi Ps comments it seems it was meant to be. So what’s the issue?

I am hoping that the Sundering might not be relevant to any further plot points, and we can ignore it and pretend it happened some other way if we don't like how the authors wrote it.

I just think it doesn't line up with what we were previously told, and they may have been too fixated on trying to make it match the lyrics of "Answers" (a song written for a different setting years ago) over anything else more concrete they wrote in the meanwhile.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I think I’ve made my feelings on the “she made sure things happened as we described” reading clear elsewhere so I’m gonna let that bear lie. What I will ask however is why is the ambiguity really a problem? It isn’t necessary to understand to make sense of the plot, as having several wildly different interpretations that all can work shows that it’s not a requirement for the story. It’s not a failure of the writing when it’s meant to be up for interpretation then, which given Yoshi Ps comments it seems it was meant to be. So what’s the issue?

---

What ambiguity is there? We have a time loop or we don't. Supposed ambiguity isn't the issue, revealing the time line to be predestined all along is the issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Larirawiel

No, it does not work. Or try to answer this question: who invented the name "Hydaelyn" in the game?


Cheers

---

More than likely the people after the sundering, and or Vanet herself. They never answered however the world used to be called Ethyris, then it became known as Hydaelyn after the summoning. You could say the same for Zodriak, it was more than likely herself, and she has interacted with people making her will known and probably told them. Doesn't break the time travel. Is that your only argument for how it's "broken" when it took me 5 seconds to give a plausible answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

I am hoping that the Sundering might not be relevant to any further plot points, and we can ignore it and pretend it happened some other way if we don't like how the authors wrote it.

I just think it doesn't line up with what we were previously told, and they may have been too fixated on trying to make it match the lyrics of "Answers" (a song written for a different setting years ago) over anything else more concrete they wrote in the meanwhile.

---

Trying to tie both the Crystal Tower and Answers to everything really does seem to be the common thread that compromised a lot of the story. I don't even think they did a great job making Answers relevant because the song is - like Dragonsong - largely about Hydaelyn lamenting the state of the Sundered world and the behaviour of the people residing within it. Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense now that we know that the Sundering was intentional and that Venat had knowledge of what it would be like.

Having Venat lose her memories alongside the others in Elpis and/or making the Sundering an accidental consequence of binding Zodiark would have made her come across as a lot more authentic and tragic.

If nothing else I do hope that the game is less preachy moving forward now that is has firmly embraced a broken aesop and 'rules for thee but not for me' approach to morality. The writers should be letting people draw their own conclusions about such things, arguably.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

If the entirety of the Elpis story arc was presented through Echo flashbacks, that would be a huge amount of time spent watching a plot that does not involve us.

I think it was quite clever to have us directly go there, though it should have wrapped up more neatly with everyone including Venat losing their memory of us. (Meteion still needs to remember us, but she leaves before the wipe goes off.)

Also, I'm not sure why you're describing Alexander as a "static time loop" and Endwalker as a "linear timeline" as if those are different things. Both are equally stable time loops which by nature take place along a linear timeline.

I've previously put a lot of thought into resolving the mismatch between Alexander and Shadowbringers (which I don't think is full multiverse, just a single rare split only possible because a time traveller broke their own past), and Endwalker is consistent with the theory I had worked out for those earlier events.

I'll spare you the full essay this time, but the linear timeline along which a stable loop forms does not need to be the only timeline in existence. The Elpis time loop only involves our branch of the split timeline, and doesn't need to involve the Eighth Calamity timeline at all because what we did at Elpis remains part of the other timeline's history.

---

Sorry, I forgot the term so I used the closest possible word.

The problem is that Alexander created a constant loop so it could finally be defeated by the WoL. But in EW it's contrived and predetermined taking away all the meaning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rokke

What ambiguity is there? We have a time loop or we don't. Supposed ambiguity isn't the issue, revealing the time line to be predestined all along is the issue.

---

Fundamentally it’s a difference of whether the timeline was only capable of being changed by acting irrationally or if it was intentionally set up to play out the way it did. Think of it like a stream flowing down a hill versus flowing down a carefully dug creek.

And once again I don’t think the timeline being casual determinist is an issue, and if it is then unfortunately there’s some bad news for folks about our own existence.

Endwalker msq sucked. I feel there shouldve been something inbetween shb and ew. They tried to do too much, tried to wrap things up too hastily, and left a trail of plotholes in their wake. I wonder why they seemed so eager to tie things up. 5.4 and 5.5 felt strangely paced after 5.3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhNooo

They could've just kept us with the transparent looking bodies and let us walk around and observe things as it happened.

---

This is what I initially assumed was going to be happening, that we'd just observe the events but not be able to interact with or be seen by anyone there. We'd find the info we were searching for eventually then return to the present day.

But of course if we had a boring plot like that we wouldn't have had all these POGGERS twitch reactions to getting to meet and hang out with past-Emet. We need those pog twitch reaction moments ofc. Time paradoxes in our writing? Who cares, we need le ebin react worthy moments in our serious story.

https://i.imgur.com/I6ufOVt.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KurohNeko

More than likely the people after the sundering, and or Vanet herself.

---

It cannot be. You tell Venat in the past, that she will become Hydaelyn.


Cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I think I’ve made my feelings on the “she made sure things happened as we described” reading clear elsewhere so I’m gonna let that bear lie. What I will ask however is why is the ambiguity really a problem? It isn’t necessary to understand to make sense of the plot, as having several wildly different interpretations that all can work shows that it’s not a requirement for the story. It’s not a failure of the writing when it’s meant to be up for interpretation then, which given Yoshi Ps comments it seems it was meant to be. So what’s the issue?

---

I'm mostly confused as to why they would want to even leave that question open for a character whom the narrative frames as unanimously good and a hero and Yoshi himself wanted the audience to view as such. It created a dissonance for some that left them feeling detached from the story.

Had they simply had her memories get wiped at the end of Elpis and thus left all of her choices untainted by knowledge of the future, it would've eliminated basically all of the reasons people took issue with how the story portrayed her. I remember you saying you'd feel like that would "cheapen" the decisions she'd made, but I feel like it would've made things much more gratifying if she had actually had to grapple with the weight of whether or not she made the right choice, as opposed to the angle of "It hurts to do this, but it's going to pay off eventually".

Stormblood was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Stormblood was.

---

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...45/unknown.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

Had they simply had her memories get wiped at the end of Elpis and thus left all of her choices untainted by knowledge of the future, it would've eliminated basically all of the reasons people took issue with how the story portrayed her. I remember you saying you'd feel like that would "cheapen" the decisions she'd made, but I feel like it would've made things much more gratifying if she had actually had to grapple with the weight of whether or not she made the right choice, as opposed to the angle of "It hurts to do this, but it's going to pay off eventually".

---

Had her memories been wiped things may have turned out the same, for sure.

What would have changed, however, would have been the lack of the Sharlayan "mission" that resulted in the creation of that spaceship, since Venat would not have recognized the need to go to the ends of the Universe (or at least evacuate the populace of the world to another planet) in order to address the real problem.

Heck, there could even be a Universe where every soul is quietly screaming for eternity because they were all drawn to the edge of the Universe and stuffed into that great big ball of Depression. Two, in fact. One where the Ancients eventually died in despair on an unsundered world where Venat lost her memory, and one where we died in despair because Hydaelyn was still called, but Venat knew nothing about the real cause of the Final Days.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anhaato

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...45/unknown.png

---

You know what they say, you never truly appreciate something until it's already gone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Had her memories been wiped things may have turned out the same, for sure.

What would have changed, however, would have been the lack of the Sharlayan "mission" that resulted in the creation of that spaceship, since Venat would not have recognized the need to go to the ends of the Universe (or at least evacuate the populace of the world to another planet) in order to address the real problem.

Heck, there could even be a Universe where every soul is quietly screaming for eternity because they were all drawn to the edge of the Universe and stuffed into that great big ball of Depression. Two, in fact. One where the Ancients eventually died in despair on an unsundered world where Venat lost her memory, and one where we died in despair because Hydaelyn was still called, but Venat knew nothing about the real cause of the Final Days.

---

I disagree. If she didn't know that Meteion was the cause then the plan to use the moon ship would have made more sense in context. As is, there is no reason to assume it would actually keep people safe and she should know that. But if she didn't then the assumption "just get off this planet" could be considered reasonable. It would even make our discovery of Meteion and the plan to get her better because we would be revealing that just fleeing wouldn't work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VentVanitas

You know what they say, you never truly appreciate something until it's already gone.

---

I always thought SB was good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Had her memories been wiped things may have turned out the same, for sure.

What would have changed, however, would have been the lack of the Sharlayan "mission" that resulted in the creation of that spaceship, since Venat would not have recognized the need to go to the ends of the Universe (or at least evacuate the populace of the world to another planet) in order to address the real problem.

---

I think it could have worked well if she had been memory wiped, created Hydaelyn for her own not-influenced-by-future-spoilers reasons, and then regained those memories upon entering the aetherial sea. She could have been trying her best to break the time loop once she's aware of it, just knowing that if she fails to do so, we're still waiting here as a backup plan – a final stop if she can't break the cycle sooner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aluja89

Especially since Elidibus can summon other WoLs, so all he had to do is tether our other reflections to us so the echo can remember that time. Appearance could be poked fun at by Hyth that Azem was fiddling with glamour magicks again, it almost writes itself.

---

That makes no sense though. Elidibus was only able to summon people because he was using the Crystal Tower's power to do so. This is specifically said during Shadowbringers. And in Endwalker he says that since he's beginning to fade he no longer has complete access to the Tower and opening the portal is pretty much the last thing he's able to do. He's never had the ability to tether people together in whatever way you're thinking of and the Echo doesn't even work that way anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aluja89

Especially since Elidibus can summon other WoLs, so all he had to do is tether our other reflections to us so the echo can remember that time. Appearance could be poked fun at by Hyth that Azem was fiddling with glamour magicks again, it almost writes itself.

---

I missed this earlier but then it got quoted above so I'm double-picking on you.

Elidibus says something to the effect that he isn't even fully summoning the souls of the heroes he draws to us – just, somehow, their desire to defeat evil and not the rest of them. (Best to not think too hard on the consequences of that for the rest of their soul, but hopefully Elidibus's death means that the splattered remnants of their aether gets restored to them, like the Exarch hoped his death would restore the Scions.)

There's no suggestion that he can "tether" souls to us at all, or a guarantee that he can find all the Azem pieces he would need to do so. And if he did, for all that we've seen the Echo can and cannot do, you'd still get their individual memories rather than their past life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rolder50

Regarding the story, I also did not enjoy how they introduced the big bad half way through, made her the cause of literally everything else that has gone wrong in the world, and then wrapped her story up a few levels later. Just feels like a cheap, out of nowhere ending.

---

This is the major reason why I disliked the story so much. We didn't see anything about Meteion or Dynamis prior to EW, and they were given so little time to develop that they felt completely out of place in the FFXIV story. Other reasons why I disliked EW were the fake death scenes of all the Scions. Like c'mon SE, we know you're not going to kill off all the main characters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

When you go around acting as though it's a requirement to not being a miserable human being that you enjoy the story - wtf are you even smoking at that point? I'd like some of it.

---

LOL. It's just someone trolling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

LOL. It's just someone trolling.

---

All I did was commend someone for enjoying the story and people got mad ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Other reasons why I disliked EW were the fake death scenes of all the Scions. Like c'mon SE, we know you're not going to kill off all the main characters.

---

Death in this series nowadays just exists for momentary shock value before revealing the beloved character is perfectly fine. A death scene has no other purpose than to trick the low iq intended audience who will actually fall for it and be shocked, then relieved and happy when they see their favorite character wasn't actually dead or did die but was brought back. It is nothing more than pure emotional manipulation and it is utterly shameless. It began with the 50 fakeout deaths of post-HW (one of the major reasons I think post-hw was actually bad) and hasn't really stopped. The writers genuinely wanted you to believe the scions were dead in Ultima Thule because they believe you are actually that stupid and easily manipulated.

but and hear me out here we skip the moon, we kill fandaniel in garlemald, we travel to elpis to figure out why this is all happening still. we DON'T enter a time loop by actually being transparent only being noticible due to our aether. (like emet did to notice us) venat opens the way out of the memory wipe. but hermes was actually successful in stopping her but not us as we escape before the wipe happens. (we could still be fully visible and technically physical as long as venat doesn't escape the wipe i feel like that would still stop the time loop and not force them to come up with an entirely different game zone instead) the sundering still happens but since venat still wouldn't agree with emets plan (if you actually paid attention to their chemistry and how venat acts, it wouldn't be that far fetched that venat would be against the basically mass extinction of themselves to save their existence. and only after zodiark failed does she then decide it needs to be done and gathers her followers/survivors becoming hydalean.) trying to find some way to stop this from happening in the future. (trying to create a champion thats strong enough to overcome any potential second apocalypse or zodiarks reawakening)

while she's waiting she thinks about potentially escaping the second apocalypse. since the ancients didn't try that. therefore making the lopporits still on their own space ship that she sends us to, after we fight her to prove ourselves ready to tackle meteion (we explain to her about meteion and how we know about the first apocalypse. SHB could answer the knowing of the apocalypse part) the lopporits a bit confused cause they and the ship was made for escaping the apocalypse refuse to help us. but we manage to convince them to build a teleporter to our world and at least help the sharlayans finish their ship, they see how wonderful the world below is and agree to pilot the sharlayan ship to the edge of the universe.

now here is where we get funky while we were busy fighting meteion and exploring ultima thule. zodiark sensing that his chains were breaking (zenos was going to release him anyways but seeing how pitiful he was at that point decided against joining with him and returning to us and our planet. this still keeps zenos character arc) breaks free and travels towards the largest source of power he can find to finish his mission (the restoration of the ancients) so yadda yadda we fight meteion on zenos back but once we weaken her. out of nowhere zodiark rears his ugly head an absorbs the now weakened meteion transforming into his true final form. now to save meteion and prevent the resurrection of the ancients (which would destroy us anyways) we now have to fight zodiark at his legitamate full power. after we kill him once again with the help of zenos. meteions soul is released and we still have our 1v1 against zenos at the edge of the universe

we stop the potential plot holes/endless questions that time loops cause. we actually still have zodiark be the final big bad, he's actually a threat now. and while yes cliche the big bad WHO'S BEEN BUILT UP THE ENTIRE GAME MIND YOU is the final big bad. it would feel far better in terms of overall story. instead of a bird we knew pretty much nothing about except for the like half of the expansion we got with her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silvarer

That makes no sense though. Elidibus was only able to summon people because he was using the Crystal Tower's power to do so. This is specifically said during Shadowbringers. And in Endwalker he says that since he's beginning to fade he no longer has complete access to the Tower and opening the portal is pretty much the last thing he's able to do. He's never had the ability to tether people together in whatever way you're thinking of and the Echo doesn't even work that way anyway.

---

I never said he should summon our reflections, just tether them together for a brief moment so the echo can take effect, if he can send us back in time, he can do that as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

I missed this earlier but then it got quoted above so I'm double-picking on you.

Elidibus says something to the effect that he isn't even fully summoning the souls of the heroes he draws to us – just, somehow, their desire to defeat evil and not the rest of them. (Best to not think too hard on the consequences of that for the rest of their soul, but hopefully Elidibus's death means that the splattered remnants of their aether gets restored to them, like the Exarch hoped his death would restore the Scions.)

There's no suggestion that he can "tether" souls to us at all, or a guarantee that he can find all the Azem pieces he would need to do so. And if he did, for all that we've seen the Echo can and cannot do, you'd still get their individual memories rather than their past life.

---

I hear you, but I just dislike time travel as a plot point out of nowhere. If the premise had something shouldering time travel it could be forgiven. As it stands I'm just trying to find anything conceivable and in the realm of possibilities.

However, whether there is a possibility of being connected to our other reflections or not is not the point. The echo is.

Edit: There is also Azem's crystal to use as a driving device.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Having Venat lose her memories alongside the others in Elpis and/or making the Sundering an accidental consequence of binding Zodiark would have made her come across as a lot more authentic and tragic.

---

They could have gone the Greek tragedy route wherein by trying to avoid the future the WoL tells her about Venat ends up inadvertently causing it, which would have kept events with the same outcome, not stripped everyone of their agency, and maintained Venat's integrity as an actual good character. I'll never understand why they went the route they did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kolsykol

We don't have the completed EW yet so I dunno how fair of a comparison it is really.


I don't think that you're wrong about the issues, but a lot of these issues particularly with Job design for example aren't as simple as right or wrong and I think it's an endless struggle trying to please everyone.
I really don't think that the Healer situation is easily solved, there are a lot of different players you need to juggle at the same time.
Which often means that you won't fully please anyone.

---

They’ve had 6 years to fix healers. They’re able to rework dps jobs numerous times but not healers? They had 3 years to give hrothgar players hairs, they promised race exclusive hairstyles and guess what? That was all a lie and instead they get racial features cut off instead.

As for endwalker, the story is completed. They specifically said the endwalker story would be completed in 6.0 and that 6.1+ is an entirely new story as opposed to the typical expansion story ends in 6.3. It is a fair comparison and in comparison to the past expansions this expansion was absolute rubbish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

As for endwalker, the story is completed. They specifically said the endwalker story would be completed in 6.0 and that 6.1+ is an entirely new story as opposed to the typical expansion story ends in 6.3. It is a fair comparison and in comparison to the past expansions this expansion was absolute rubbish.

---

What, you didn't like the brand new characters that have not even been hinted at for the last decade as the main antagonist? Also, you know that great good vs evil fight that has been building up for said decade? Here it is at long last, a lv 83 8 man fight! What do you mean you didn't like how the Goddess "sacrificed" herself (and the rest of her civilization) to start the story of ARR? Don't look into the story too much, lol. :^)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

Had they simply had her memories get wiped at the end of Elpis and thus left all of her choices untainted by knowledge of the future, it would've eliminated basically all of the reasons people took issue with how the story portrayed her. I remember you saying you'd feel like that would "cheapen" the decisions she'd made, but I feel like it would've made things much more gratifying if she had actually had to grapple with the weight of whether or not she made the right choice, as opposed to the angle of "It hurts to do this, but it's going to pay off eventually".

---

Sorry, but they should never let Elpis into the game like this. The problem is, since we are active in the past, there is no way to fix the causal loops without introducing new different ones. If you let Venat's memory being erased then there would never be a space ship. Because Venat would not know, that Meteion is responsible for the first final days etc. And even with this knowledge, Venat acts really stupid. I guess, the story writes must do that or they would have to retcon bigger parts of the story. And if you look more accurate on it, they have already made a big retcon. After dealing in Elpis in the past we are already in an altered reality. In ShB Emet-Selch tells us, that Hydaelyn fought with Zodiark and then she used the sundering ability and sundered everything except herself, Elidibus, Emet-Selch and Lahabrea. But in the EW story, she does not fight Zodiark. She went to the Convocation of Fourteen and said: "Loool, you all are sundered now!" And bammm, we are in an alternative universe.

Time traveling is hard. If the story writers have no clue how to do it right then they should not try it.


Cheers