Doesnt feel like the WoW migration improved the community.

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Originally Posted by keichirou

i swear... WoW lives rent-free in some many ppls minds xD

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Wow use to live in mine for 17 years. I just recently kicked their ass out of my head back in May of 21 and started letting FFXIV live there in the same month of last year. Thank God cause FFXIV is a better tenant.

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Originally Posted by Moonsprite

People are obsessed with trying to compare mythic + to regular ffxiv dungeons and you literally can’t. That level of gameplay doesn’t exist in dungeons in this game. You are trying to tell me if you went into a heroic dungeon in WoW (which is equal to normal ffxiv) that you have to heal more? I doubt that. When comparing equivalent content the rotations are similar and not engaging in either game. I even said several times in other posts that the exception is higher level of content. Mythic+ is that higher level of content that again DOES NOT exist in ffxiv.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgn9SyLObMM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nrbvBfBNRM


Yes, you have to heal more, even in heroic dungeons. Because the incoming damage is higher and the heals are weaker compared to the hitpoints of the players. In WoW you cannot top 8 people to 100% only with two or three heal spells if you are not completely overgeared. And you can see it in the logs. Healers in WoW use heal spells way more often than in FF14. The main role of a healer in FF14 is doing damage. And this is a misconception, IMHO. I can only assume why the game designers decided to turn healers into crippled DPS jobs.



Cheers

People are try hards and elitist because nowadays you can make a career out of it if you can play exceptionally well. Who doesn't want a job playing video games all day long.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Ya know, when I see a video presenting an opinion I don't agree with, I see the first five minutes and move on. I don't bemoan that the community as a whole is a disease-filled pile of garbage that a certain group of players are adding on to. Complaining that the community sucks because two people said the game has things they don't like is doing the same thing the two people did - blowing stuff out of proportion.

I kinda agree with your takes but being antagonistic towards others won't get those same people on board with you.

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So I agree with EVERYTHING RobynDaBank said. but I will take it further; I watched the video and that guy can go to hell along with EVERYTHING else he said. He is the type of person I avoid and stay away from. He gives off that vibe that says I am better then everyone else. And I can't stand people like that.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

the "like WoW" banner could hold as varied of stuff as "I want more roleplay functionality," "I'd like more to do in the open world," or "I'd like instanced/personal housing."

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I am unsure why you picked those three items, given that FF14 massively surpasses WoW in all three of those areas, I would have picked some other topics.

In any case this whole recent "WoW-refugees-turn-FF14-into-WoW" is predominantly based on the recent wave of expats, there's no great tricky philosophy to it. The guys who wish WoW was like WOTLK are all currently sitting in the Classic BC waiting room waiting for Classic WOTLK, the rest of us are modern WoW retail refugees who got sick of regrinding borrowed power and having every expansion delete the one before it, along with cynical timegating and terrible story-telling made by a bunch of workplace predators. WoW wasn't always like this, true, but this is its most recent incarnation and cause of a lot of migration we aren't talking about the 4 guys who want WoW Cata.

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Originally Posted by Novae

Aion cleric was super fun in ow pvp, but a bit broken with magic resist.

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Holy moley that is an understatement, max MR cleric was unkillable even 10v1.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

FF14 is simply not designed for m+ to work because it would need around 8-13 more buttons solely focused on forms of utility and you are gonna start running out of hotkeys by then xD

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You mean... 2-5 (averaging 3), depending on the particular spec and the "pure" raid environments you'd compare M+ toolkit usage to?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You mean... 2-5 (averaging 3), depending on the particular spec and the "pure" raid environments you'd compare M+ toolkit usage to?

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No, because I ve included dcds, slows, stuns, roots, immunities etc as utility because all can make a huge change on how you approach an encounter and a big dangerous pull.

Not only that but they have enormous self heals and defensives while ff14 dps at best have 1-2 defensives and they are some weak 10-15%

Some old examples:
-Venthyr mm hunter DPS: aoe root, threat redirection, 6s immunity, 20% DR for 6s, personal heal cd 30%+15% dot, single target slow, aoe trap slow, single target 60s cc, speed boost cd, enrage dispel, short range jump covenant ability, stealth detect flare and obviously interrupt.
-Necrolord shadow priest DPS: Detect radius reduction, 4s silence, personal HP boost by 25% that also heals that amount+10%, CC undead, Covenant 40% shield on 2 min cd with 3s cast time, small absorb shield with low cd, mass magic dispel, magic dispel from enemies, disease dispel, aoe fear around you, threat removal from yourself, grip friendly, talented targeted stun, heal cd that heals based on damage


The fact remains that all those are very important and useful utility skills that good players can use in order to survive or approach an encounter differently in dungeons, those are far too many to be added in ff14 and the only reason they exist in WoW is because dps rotations have been dumbed down so much.

I would like more utility in ff14 to make dungeons more interesting but the fact remains that if they add all those on top of a dps class right now they would need space for 10 more buttons

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

Because my initial reaction is definitely not which isnt surprising considering the type of people wow players are.

I first played FF14 during Shadowbringers before the big WoW migration wave from the disaster that was shadowlands and later on the lawsuits.

I quite enjoyed the game though the lack of dps utility kinda made dungeons boring dps spam but that was just a personal preference, nothing game breaking to start doomsaying.

The sentiment about the game and the forums were very positive at the time, people were friendly and happy and discussed their class issues in a less negative way with the exception of 1-2 tryhards complaining about a casual not doing well in DF as if it matters for that content.

Now I come back after a while and the community looks worse, forums have a lot more complaints, the amount of tryhards complaining about the game being casual friendly has vastly increased and the same people are now screaming doom because Yoshida dares not to treat raiders and high end content as special like WoW does and instead tries to be accessible. And in general there's a lot more negativity coming from the typical tryhard crowd which was very common in the wow playerbase.

You now even see the typical wow streamer youtube complaining that the game isnt hard enough because of course they only care about inflating their ego by *checks notes* "beating a video game that is literally designed to be beaten" and not the MAJORITY OF THE PLAYERBASE aka casuals who pay the bills.

Which seems weird cuz honestly, if you want to be treated as special for doing high end content you should be going back to WoW that will forever treat non raiders and casual players as 4th class citizens, FF14 is thankfully not following WoW's example.

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I stopped reading after you said forums were positive before the wave LAWL

What lengths must we go thru to justify FF14 crap to the point we are blaming other communities LMAO

Also like to add that I’m utterly sick of this discussion and it’s frequency. Many great topics, Job skewering, the brick mentality pandering, lack of Gill sinks, lackluster Open world/ world map, leveling fatigue, PvP, housing crisis, role responsibilities and their applications ect ect many topics I’d love to hear valid debate over absolutely overshadowed by “gee it’s annoying to hear people complain” complaints

People need to grow the hell up, the games flawed, very flawed. Let’s talk about it not piss on eachother on the thought that maybe juuuust maybe ff14 isn’t Jesus incarnate. Games don’t improve by hyperbole and bootlicking, that’s how they take advantage, and here comes SE watching from the shadows

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

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Again, how many buttons would be added relative to what you'd be doing if no challenging dungeon content (or PvP, for that matter) existed. That those buttons see use in M+ does not mean they'd need to be uniquely added just because a game might now have challenging light party content; all but 2-5 per class also see significant use outside of M+.

We don't stop using defensives in raids. We don't stop using immunities in raids. We don't stop using utility in raids. In certain raid encounters, even slows, stuns, roots, stuns, interrupts, and snares can all see use, too.

A raid team in WoW will quite often take Druids, Warriors, Priests, Warlocks, and the like specifically for Leap of Faith, Demonic Gateway, Stampeding Roar, Rallying Cry, etc. Those skills' use are not limited to solely M+. Hell, there have been times when seemingly flavor skills like Mind Control allowed for tremendous advantage in fights or Mind Soothe in readying a council fight room, etc.

Else, we may as well strip the likes of Rescue, Dark Missionary, Heart of Light, Shake it Off, Divine Veil, Passage of Arms, Troubadour, Shield Samba, Tactician, Magic Barrier, Nature's Minne, Warden's Paean, Everlasting Flight, Riddle of Earth, Shadeshift, Third Eye, Bloodbath, Second Wind, Nascent Flash, Intervention, and Oblation, The Blackest Night, and Heart of Corundom's ability to be used on others, etc., etc. They surely couldn't ever see use in any raid encounter after all, right?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

relative to what you'd be doing if no challenging dungeon content (or PvP, for that matter) existed

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Well in that specific case you dont need any which just means dungeons are gonna remain boring dps spamfest, all that utility I mentioned would mainly be useful if dungeons ever became similar to WoW's m+, which I find superior to raids because in raids half of those abilities are usually useless because bosses are immune to roots, slows, ccs and adds dont always exist. (And people who know how to use all of that rather than the few a guide tells them to are quite ahead of others)

Even then though, WoW does have more defensives with each DPS class usually have at least 2-4 defensives or big self heals/immunities that do work in raids, again though I assume the reason those dont exist in ff14 is to make the raid encounters more choreographed.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Else, we may as well strip the likes of Rescue, Dark Missionary, Heart of Light, Shake it Off, Divine Veil, Passage of Arms, Troubadour, Shield Samba, Tactician, Magic Barrier, Nature's Minne, Warden's Paean, Everlasting Flight, Riddle of Earth, Shadeshift, Third Eye, Bloodbath, Second Wind, Nascent Flash, Intervention, and Oblation, The Blackest Night, and Heart of Corundom's ability to be used on others, etc., etc. They surely couldn't ever see use in any raid encounter after all, right?

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I am not sure what you are trying to say, I am already saying that FF14 classes have very limited utility, and the fact that this list was made by combining multiple class AND role skills just goes to show it compared to WoW where one SINGLE dps class has 10-13 non dps abilities that can affect an encounter, if we combine all classes and roles it ll be pages of abilities.

Plus the fact that ff14's utility is far weaker, second wind for example is a pretty pathetic heal compared to heal utility dps get in WoW that can almost heal more than half your health.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

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Right, but my point is that we already have quite a few buttons that could easily be fit to those purposes. The number of discrete keys that would need to be added, then, are far less than you make out. Rather than some "8-13" additional keys just to have a chance at interesting and challenging light party content, we'd only a need a small handful.

It is fine for some skills to be more valuable in environments capable of CC, for instance, than they are outside of it. A Kaiten-Yukikaze, for instance, could have a significant heavy+slow, a Kaiten-Oka a radial pushback, a Kaiten-Mangetsu a radial draw-in, etc., etc., all at the cost of one button that most SAMs already want back. That wouldn't change how Kaiten works in raids, unless raids themselves went back to having CC-able adds, but that's fine; it's okay (even if, imo, not preferable) for raids not to make use of every portion of our utility.

And considered the "far weaker," to nearly the point of being so watered down as to be uninteresting, discrete utility we already have.

Why have separate, individually flimsy, and thematically-incohesive skills in Second Wind and Bloodbath, over a fewer number of more powerful and/or integral, job-specific defensives with a more diverse use cases? What of the likes of Feint and Addle, the difference of which can almost never save a life nor GCD heal? We don't have to add new defensives atop the ones we have now, especially if the existing ones are uninteresting. We can improve upon the buttons we have, especially if we opened them up to job trait contexts by freeing those capacities from Role Actions.

Also, at present, a huge amount of our "utility" is devoted to simply moving numbers from one player's addon bars to another to then be sorted back into place by a website despite there being gameplay effect from any raid buff used beyond whatever margin is worth holding a given action for. (And at present, because everything is so synced up anyways, there's also little to no decision-making or remotely complex planning involved in that anyways.) If they add no gameplay beyond the first to set a given window of opportunity, why are we removing more pivotal skills like Touch of Death or Kaiten just to support the next Dragon's Eye v2 or what have you?

All that is why, again, I don't think it'd take more than some 2-5 skills more to be able to support a full range of interesting and challenging mechanics (i.e., across new or revamped light party content). If the devs were ever in a position to allow midcore players or those who want to be dependent on fewer other variables or want to spend less time just grouping up --despite still, yes, wanting to play in and as a team-- finding the space for those new (or, quite often, returned) capacities would be a comparatively miniscule effort.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A raid team in WoW will quite often take Druids, Warriors, Priests, Warlocks, and the like specifically for Leap of Faith, Demonic Gateway, Stampeding Roar, Rallying Cry, etc. Those skills' use are not limited to solely M+. Hell, there have been times when seemingly flavor skills like Mind Control allowed for tremendous advantage in fights or Mind Soothe in readying a council fight room, etc.

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Fun fact, any serious raid team will have at least one warlock, even if the class or player does no damage, purely because their utility is so good. Gateway, healthstones, soulstones, basically mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Right, but my point is that we already have quite a few buttons that could easily be fit to those purposes.

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True, if they choose to redesign them, second wind could definitely become a strong defensive skill if they boost its healing by a lot for example

Though at least from the dev perspective I assume that will make their encounter design a lot more complicated which might be the reason they dont do it.

But i would personally love to see utility/strong personal defensives/heals be a thing for dps classes as well as a lot of slows/ccs/stuns and the creation of actually interesting dungeon mob that require good use of utility to be efficiently at least.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

Though at least from the dev perspective I assume that will make their encounter design a lot more complicated which might be the reason they dont do it.

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Yeah, but it's come to about the extent of refusing to leave one's wheelchair because knee surgery would be "too much effort." They're losing out on a ton in the long run just to feign efficiency for the time being.

Though, I suppose sunk cost fallacy likely plays a part, too. They spent so much time and effort shallowing out and homogenizing utility; surely it'd be "disrespectful" to their time if ever they were asked to un-gut those systems...

Been complaining about healers ever since I saw Dissipation in the trailer back in HW. But it was still bloody amazing to be a scholar, despite that terrible skill.

Been complaining even more since ShB with the hope that it was groundwork for EW.

And now, been complaining even even more since nothing was changed, even more bitter that Yoship spat in the face of healers ("nothing we could change about scholar, go play ultimate"). At least they created a healer with an amazing visual and lore identity, and an acknowledged dps to heal identity. But it's still the same homogenization and gameplay.