There's too much strawmanning people who criticize the game

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

This statement is severely subjective. Im sorry. Ive have friends and other people, including myself busying with other things in the meantime.

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What are those things? Please enlighten us, on all the lasting content this game has.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

What are those things? Please enlighten us, on all the lasting content this game has.

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So here's the big question that I have regarding this stuff. I could go off and list EX/Savage, Gold saucer, diadem, map exploration, relics, leveling classes, etc. But it's no secret that each of those things have a defined end. Do you have a problem with the defined end? Because that's part of the appeal to me. When I finish, I move onto another goal, if I have no goal I can either choose to mess around with friends as they do their stuff, RP, housing, etc. But ultimately a lot of times my strategy when I have no goal is to just take a break from the game and come back later. Is that not ok?

Additionally it's nice that each of those things can be paused and picked back up at any time. I need not finish them before taking a break as well.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

What are those things? Please enlighten us, on all the lasting content this game has.

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With Pleasure:

Beast Tribes
Mount/Card/Minion Collecting
MGP farming in Gold Saucer
Leveling Jobs
Leveling Crafters
Eureka
Bozja
Glam Collecting
Gil Farming
Getting BiS Gear
Relic Weapons
Blue Mage
Shared Fates/Hunts
Currently all PvP rewards
Housing (a group of friends finally got their FC house so they're busying doing FC airship crafting things and furnishing etc)
Some even started playing actual alt characters
Achievement Hunting

Thing is that people dont just bum rush all of this stuff, it gets spaced out between game sessions. Please dont even take this as me thinking that we should'nt have new or expect new content. Thats just stupid, OF COURSE we want more and newer things, but just like everything it'll be all in due time and compared to others MMOs FFXIV's patch cycle isnt as long as or inconsistent. What I speak on subjective is that not everyone will want to do some of the things listed here or just dont care. Thats fine, but dont act like you should be entitled to receive content that only "you care about". This is why people say if you already done with what you wanted to do, then its ok to go to play other games and come back when they release something thats interesting to you.

But nowadays people just have this awkward sense of entitlement over products that everything has to be catered to them. You will never be happy if you keep thinking like this. And one last time I say this, we will be getting new content.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

With Pleasure:

Beast Tribes
Mount/Card/Minion Collecting
MGP farming in Gold Saucer
Leveling Jobs
Leveling Crafters
Eureka
Bozja
Glam Collecting
Gil Farming
Getting BiS Gear
Relic Weapons
Blue Mage
Shared Fates/Hunts
Currently all PvP rewards
Housing (a group of friends finally got their FC house so they're busying doing FC airship crafting things and furnishing etc)
Some even started playing actual alt characters
Achievement Hunting

Thing is that people dont just bum rush all of this stuff, it gets spaced out between game sessions. Please dont even take this as me thinking that we should'nt have new or expect new content. Thats just stupid, OF COURSE we want more and newer things, but just like everything it'll be all in due time and compared to others MMOs FFXIV's patch cycle isnt as long as or inconsistent. What I speak on subjective is that not everyone will want to do some of the things listed here or just dont care. Thats fine, but dont act like you should be entitled to receive content that only "you care about". This is why people say if you already done with what you wanted to do, then its ok to go to play other games and come back when they release something thats interesting to you.

But nowadays people just have this awkward sense of entitlement over products that everything has to be catered to them. You will never be happy if you keep thinking like this. And one last time I say this, we will be getting new content.

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Treasure Maps
Gpose
Clearing the yellow sidequest chains
Getting rare items from FATE chains
Relic Weapons (including Bozja and Eureka, yes, but also Zodiac and Anima)
Doma Restoration
Firmament\Diadem
Joke quests like Hildibrand and Scholasticate
Learn how to play an instrument (kek)
Events...
Engage with the community? Not every roleplay has to be ERP

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

..

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So nothing then?

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

So nothing then?

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:| ok come on, now you're just nitpicking Churro...

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

So nothing then?

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For someone who only wants to play one game sure sure find a lot of stuff to not do in said game...

Honestly, at this point I'm leaning more towards some people are just upset that other people are enjoying the game whilst they aren't and so they seek to police what is and isn't content based on some arbitrary standard they've developed.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Honestly, at this point I'm leaning more towards some people are just upset that other people are enjoying the game whilst they aren't and so they seek to police what is and isn't content based on some arbitrary standard they've developed.

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I have a building feeling that people expect lasting content to keep them engaged for months and months on end - which is hard for really any game to achieve. At one point you'll exhaust yourself on things to do in a game and the content won't be engaging as it once was. What do I know, though, since I rejoined rather recently by many people's standards.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

I have a building feeling that people expect lasting content to keep them engaged for months and months on end - which is hard for really any game to achieve. At one point you'll exhaust yourself on things to do in a game and the content won't be engaging as it once was. What do I know, though, since I rejoined rather recently by many people's standards.

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Or some ppl want to be locked into 1 game that they have to play like its a 2nd job in order to stay current in it.

You can try to add content all you want. It will always be moot as long as you fail to provide engaging moment-to-moment gameplay within said content. This is the difference between current PvP and FATE grind. The former has capacity to keep itself engaging and last a bit. The latter is simply dead after two weeks because there is only so long players will tolerate spamming their aoe combo FATE after FATE after FATE...

This engaging gameplay is where SE fails miserably.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

So nothing then?

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Define what you consider "something".

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Originally Posted by Padudu

I have a building feeling that people expect lasting content to keep them engaged for months and months on end - which is hard for really any game to achieve. At one point you'll exhaust yourself on things to do in a game and the content won't be engaging as it once was. What do I know, though, since I rejoined rather recently by many people's standards.

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People want lasting content, yet then do not want grinds, and some of them spend more time complaining and whinging about said grind than they do actively engaging or trying to do such. I'm sorry but a repeatable system will always have a big element of grind or monotony to it. The only question is whether said grind is worth it for many people to actually tolerate.

Furthermore, many people complain about the poor systems, and whilst I do agree, this is largely lent to how thinly they spread their content audience, and yet people want more, and for it to be repeatable??? I'm sorry but the game has plenty of content systems already in the game and it is just a matter of innovating, reworking and improving on them to further incentivise players to engage with said systems. Anything beyond this is just seeking to exacerbate an already long standing issue that people already have with the 'quality' of said content. Spreading too thinly only makes these issues worse.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

You can try to add content all you want. It will always be moot as long as you fail to provide engaging moment-to-moment gameplay within said content. This is the difference between current PvP and FATE grind. The former has capacity to keep itself engaging and last a bit. The latter is simply dead after two weeks because there is only so long players will tolerate spamming their aoe combo FATE after FATE after FATE...

This engaging gameplay is where SE fails miserably.

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This and a thousand times this is the issue. This is absolutely wholly the issue. They shouldn't be developing more systems until they can already improve on existing ones. Open world and the FATE system is already archaic as is. They've tried to improve it, but in the grand scheme of things it is akin to a band-aid.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Honestly, at this point I'm leaning more towards some people are just upset that other people are enjoying the game whilst they aren't and so they seek to police what is and isn't content based on some arbitrary standard they've developed.

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They want the only content to be the content they like and nothing else. Its why I laugh at people that say FFXIV has no content. Its because those people tend to hard focus on a single type of content.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

For someone who only wants to play one game sure sure find a lot of stuff to not do in said game...

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Unfortunately, I have standards.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

They want the only content to be the content they like and nothing else.

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I don't think that's the case at all. Especially since a lot of veteran players have consistently pushed for more variety in terms of content that is dynamic and not a pure, tedious grind.

What's interesting is that many of the same posters who insist that there's plenty to do will engage in strange attempts at gatekeeping by insisting that the game doesn't need more variety.

Which leads to a situation where, conveniently, any suggestion for 'more content' is shot down no matter what. Funny, that...

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Originally Posted by Padudu

I have a building feeling that people expect lasting content to keep them engaged for months and months on end - which is hard for really any game to achieve. At one point you'll exhaust yourself on things to do in a game and the content won't be engaging as it once was. What do I know, though, since I rejoined rather recently by many people's standards.

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This is the very reason that I have, um, 7 MMO shortcut icons on my desktop. Having played WoW in its heydey, there was every reason to go to other games, whether Free to Play or Subscription based, when one became exhausted, or bored, or just in need of more to do.

There are three stages to this, I think:

1. Awe and wonder at this new world you're playing in, including the story
   
2. Experiencing the fun of being competent enough in the game to do harder content
   
3. Boredom because, for the most part, every single MMO out there produces further content on an erratic schedule.

That last one depends on the company producing the MMO. For Square Enix, if they say "4 months" it will be 4 months. In other games, not-so-much. <memories of waiting for 10 months until the next WoW expansion came out>.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Unfortunately, I have standards.

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I mean, I wouldn't consider spending money monthly on a game that has apparently no content I'm interested in "standards".

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I don't think that's the case at all. Especially since a lot of veteran players have consistently pushed for more variety in terms of content that is dynamic and not a pure, tedious grind.

What's interesting is that many of the same posters who insist that there's plenty to do will engage in strange attempts at gatekeeping by insisting that the game doesn't need more variety.

Which leads to a situation where, conveniently, any suggestion for 'more content' is shot down no matter what. Funny, that...

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And there's a lot of veteran players who are fine with the status quo (as in, new systems and content types get added each expansion) . But that always seems to get ignored.

And no one says new content is bad. I've enjoyed most of the new things they've added over the years. The problem is people saying there's "no content".

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I don't think that's the case at all. Especially since a lot of veteran players have consistently pushed for more variety in terms of content that is dynamic and not a pure, tedious grind.

What's interesting is that many of the same posters who insist that there's plenty to do will engage in strange attempts at gatekeeping by insisting that the game doesn't need more variety.

Which leads to a situation where, conveniently, any suggestion for 'more content' is shot down no matter what. Funny, that...

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But nobody is saying we dont want variety. How am I being so unclear with this. Of course we want this game to give us new things, thats not what people are arguing against.

What I'm arguing is the people that act like there isnt anything to do when there's a lot of content that you can focus on, but choose to ignore it and therefore thinking that validates their opinion. Unless you're such a gigachad that you've done and completed every single thing this game offers then there's no argument here, just mindless complaining.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

And those are what exactly? You need to understand something. Content is still content even if you don't like it. I don't like raiding or crafting, it's still objectively content. If someone doesn't like Gold Saucer or even RP, it doesn't matter. They are still objectively content.




Please tell me you don't think people saying there's plenty of content don't think we could still use more content or more content variety.

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RP isn't content. Gold saucer, sure, that is at least an attempt at lasting "content".

I have continuously stated the distinction *lasting* content, there is a difference. Leveling isn't *lasting* content. Especially with how poorly alt characters are treated in this game, even Yoshida says to just buy a boost.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

And there's a lot of veteran players who are fine with the status quo. But that always seems to get ignored.

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Probably because many of those same veteran players make a habit out of shooting down pretty much any suggestion towards the game and/or imply that if someone isn't happy with a particular aspect of the game then they should just quit.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

They want the only content to be the content they like and nothing else. Its why I laugh at people that say FFXIV has no content. Its because those people tend to hard focus on a single type of content.

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This is the kind of thing the OP is about... and of course people want content that is more relevant to their interests. Not sure what the expectation is here? To clamour for content you'll never do? Like Theodric said, variety is good, but why would you advocate for more of what you're not interested in, particularly if you feel you're not getting enough of what you do want?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Probably because many of those same veteran players make a habit out of shooting down pretty much any suggestion towards the game and/or imply that if someone isn't happy with a particular aspect of the game then they should just quit.

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Well, if you suggest turning XIV into an action mmo yeah I'm going to shoot it down. I don't want an action mmo.

There's asking for types of content, and asking for fundamental game acpect changes.


New content types? Good. Changing fundamental aspects of the game? Bad.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

RP isn't content. Gold saucer, sure, that is at least an attempt at lasting "content.

I have continuously stated the distinction *lasting* content, there is a difference. Leveling isn't *lasting* content. Especially with how poorly alt characters are treated in this game, even Yoshida says to just buy a boost.

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Im being an idiot for responding to you at this point but here's a question. How about you explain some MMO's that have actual "good" lasting content? I'm curious to know some examples.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Well, if you suggest turning XIV into an action mmo yeah I'm going to shoot it down. I don't want an action mmo.

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People are asking for it to be turned into an action MMO? Where?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Probably because many of those same veteran players make a habit out of shooting down pretty much any suggestion towards the game and/or imply that if someone isn't happy with a particular aspect of the game then they should just quit.

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TBF veteran players who want more content also shoot down those who point out there's already a vibrant variety of things to be done. Don't have a horse in this race because I'm no vet but I went through ~5 pages of just that in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

People are asking for it to be turned into an action MMO? Where?

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There's been lots of threads over the years. Here's 2 from 2 seconds of Google.


https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/388246

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/265439

And it was an example dude. People ask for fundamental changes to games design all the time.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I don't think that's the case at all. Especially since a lot of veteran players have consistently pushed for more variety in terms of content that is dynamic and not a pure, tedious grind.

What's interesting is that many of the same posters who insist that there's plenty to do will engage in strange attempts at gatekeeping by insisting that the game doesn't need more variety.

Which leads to a situation where, conveniently, any suggestion for 'more content' is shot down no matter what. Funny, that...

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The problem with more variety is you inevitably reach a situation where you have many deprecated systems that don't get the 'expansions', the 'attention' or the 'quality' that they rightly deserve, with all sense of quality standard effectively being chucked out the window.

Not that I don't sympathise or understand, but really they should look to integrating multiple systems into a single system that ultimately has just has much substance if not more than if they were both separate. To give a little example of this, is it necessary really to have an exploration zone (e.g. Eureka or Bozja), to be separate from that of deep dungeon, or would they not gain more substance if they were to integrate these in some fashion, e.g. logos system incorporated into deep dungeon, or to look more into dungeoneering and incorporating crafters into that system as well. They should be looking at captiviating a wide an audience as possible, not targeting niche areas or groups of people separately with fairly mediocre and incomplete systems.

To summarise my point, the variety of content is meaningless if the substance of said content is completely non-existent. What good would an underwhelming Criterion Dungeon system do? What good would an underwhelming and 'meatless' Island Sanctuary do? What good will a new deep dungeon do if it is essentially the same mechanics with a new aesthetic slapped over it?

New content is not inherently bad, but if it doesn't have the substance, meat or the captivation behind it then it doesn't matter, which is just a trend you'll inevitably see as they deign to provide new systems that they cannot hope to support or continue going forward.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im being an idiot for responding to you at this point but here's a question. How about you explain some MMO's that have actual "good" lasting content? I'm curious to know some examples.

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I don't play very many mmorpgs. The only ones I've played in the last few years are Lost Ark and ESO. Lost Ark has their Legion Raids (not in the western release currently), and ESO has Cyrodill PvP (haven't played ESO in over two years), for example. FFXIV is pretty much the only MMO I play. I've made many suggestions in the past on what I'd like to see, so I'm sorry if I have kind of lost my patience, especially with the direction, I, and many others, believe this game is heading.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

To be fair, a lot of the 'content' in that list is pretty much just depthless completionism, or stuff that takes a very short amount of time each week. A lot of players simply don't see "collect all 100 shiny pebels for some points that do nothing" as legitimate content.

I think a lot of the appeal of these types of games comes from a sense of progression, and when that feeling dries up the game becomes very boring. Some people are able to get that sense of progression from grinding out every relic or triple triad card, but they are a very small minority.

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Pretty much.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

There's been lots of threads over the years. Here's 2 from 2 seconds of Google.


https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/388246

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/265439

And it was an example dude. People ask for fundamental changes to games design all the time.

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2 threads, from 2015 and 2019. And you had to use google in order to find them.

So, about strawmanning...

I've been using these forums for many years too and this is the first time I recall seeing anyone bring "action mmo" into discussion. The most frequent complains I've seen are about job balance, healer design, opinions on content, relic grinds, glams, Viera/Hrothgar, etc. but never about making it "action mmo".

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

To be fair, a lot of the 'content' in that list is pretty much just depthless completionism, or stuff that takes a very short amount of time each week. A lot of players simply don't see "collect all 100 shiny pebels for some points that do nothing" as legitimate content.

I think a lot of the appeal of these types of games comes from a sense of progression, and when that feeling dries up the game becomes very boring. Some people are able to get that sense of progression from grinding out every relic or triple triad card, but they are a very small minority.

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Same argument can be said for actual character progression. Once you get all the BiS stuff in any MMO what then? Doing raids, dungeons you've done before multiple times? Who the heck wants to play a game where you never meet your end goals and enjoy the accomplishments and completion aspect of satisfaction that is embedded in say "every single game thats ever made"? The thing with MMOs is that endgame character progression is really only temporary, and with FFXIV's case is very rewarding to have that little downtime period where you've achieved those personal wants without having to mindlessly play the game for progressing as possible.

WoW gave us a good example of the negative aspects of pointless retention systems. Again I'm waiting for somebody to give me an actual good example of fun retention content that lasts for the entirety of the game.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

To be fair, a lot of the 'content' in that list is pretty much just depthless completionism, or stuff that takes a very short amount of time each week. A lot of players simply don't see "collect all 100 shiny pebels for some points that do nothing" as legitimate content.

I think a lot of the appeal of these types of games comes from a sense of progression, and when that feeling dries up the game becomes very boring. Some people are able to get that sense of progression from grinding out every relic or triple triad card, but they are a very small minority.

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Really? Wasn't common complain about WoW, that the game was slowly becoming a checklist of daily content you needed to do to stay on top of your character progression ( mixed with unhealthy dose of RNG that could halt your progress altogether)? I don't really see any realistic way to make a retention system that last indefinitely without making it somehow abusive towards players

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I don't play very many mmorpgs. The only ones I've played in the last few years are Lost Ark and ESO. Lost Ark has their Legion Raids (not in the western release currently), and ESO has Cyrodill PvP (haven't played ESO in over two years), for example. FFXIV is pretty much the only MMO I play. I've made many suggestions in the past on what I'd like to see, so I'm sorry if I have kind of lost my patience, especially with the direction, I, and many others, believe this game is heading.

Pretty much.

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Alright so you mentioned Legion raids and PvP. How are those different compared to other types of content in other MMOs? What sort of exciting and new challenges Lost Ark's Legion raiding does that warrants it as a "good" example of lasting content? What does ESO's PvP system do that makes them stand out from any other MMO's PvP that is considered valuable retention?

Not trying to be mean but I want to better understand where you are coming from.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

2 threads, from 2015 and 2019. And you had to use google in order to find them.

So, about strawmanning...

I've been using these forums for many years too and this is the first time I recall seeing anyone bring "action mmo" into discussion. The most frequent complains I've seen are about job balance, healer design, opinions on content, relic grinds, glams, Viera/Hrothgar, etc. but never about making it "action mmo".

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Yes google, because I dont remember every thread number i visit. I don't have photographic memory. Apparently threads on certain requests only matter if they are from this year or something. I'm surte I can find other threads more recently with more time, but I dont really care enough.

I mean, you have a post from 2013 linked in your signature and apparently that is still relevant.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Not that I disagree with your point. They should rework Hrothgar entirely as opposed to endlessly patching in hairstyles because of a broken race. But I'll let you try and use some self-awareness to try and figure out why the emboldened text is hypocritical coming from you.

Edit: Especially when one of your criticisms of the game has had you critiquing the character creation.

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Because that was clearly sarcasm as a reply to someone making that very argument.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I don't think that's the case at all. Especially since a lot of veteran players have consistently pushed for more variety in terms of content that is dynamic and not a pure, tedious grind.

What's interesting is that many of the same posters who insist that there's plenty to do will engage in strange attempts at gatekeeping by insisting that the game doesn't need more variety.

Which leads to a situation where, conveniently, any suggestion for 'more content' is shot down no matter what. Funny, that...

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Exactly. You are talking to someone who just said "no" in the 24-man Savage thread just because they don't personally like that concept.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Because that was clearly sarcasm as a reply to someone making that very argument.

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Given your blunt tone, in combination with the nature of a good portion of your posts I wouldn’t take it as a surprise if you were serious.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Given your blunt tone, in combination with the nature of a good portion of your posts I wouldn’t take it as a surprise if you were serious.

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That's weird because I literally just quoted the guy verbatim.

"Some criticisms are not warranted" is literally quoted verbatim for example.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

This is the kind of thing the OP is about... and of course people want content that is more relevant to their interests. Not sure what the expectation is here? To clamour for content you'll never do? Like Theodric said, variety is good, but why would you advocate for more of what you're not interested in, particularly if you feel you're not getting enough of what you do want?

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There's a lot of content I don't like in FFXIV, but I also don't feel compelled to log in every single day like some of ya'll do which is part of the problem. Its OK to not play every day. The developers try to spread out the type of content they release and have a variety of content. Focusing too much on a single thing would eventually lead to less content. Would you rather they created a "dynamic" content that's just ultra grindy that will hold you over for 6-12 months with no patches in between? Personally I prefer getting consistent updates every few months over what other MMO's do where they drop a "big update" and then go silent for a year.