Y'shtola is a Mary Sue.

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Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik

The entire story is a big Mary Sue, dude. What do you think would have happened if that airship has not crashed into the shield generator in the castrum? Or if the Garleans had put the generator inside the shield.

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that's a coincidence.
It's only a mary sue if somehow YOU made the ship crash.
Or if you set things up that no matter what happens, it's all according to plan. Like Batman.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

The end of EW made me lose a ton of respect for the writers because it shows me that they don't have any guts in their writing...."oh we might make some players mad if XXXXX dies".

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If they all died and we were the only one left after that journey it would have been a LOT more interesting. Mostly it would let some of the other characters that got introduced actually start filling vital roles, but we'd probably have to rely on people of the first to go to other worlds instead of relying on Yshtola and company on the source. We left off with some characters in Shadowbringers doing stuff with the 13th.

Got bonked by a book and you say she has no weakness?

I love the plot but the writers really cannot help themselves with these fake-out deaths. How many times has Y'shtola "died" now? Three? Poor Papalymo and Moenbryda are gone forever but she always finds some way to come back.

Or maybe this is a meta joke about cats having 9 lives.

Not a fan of her either. Aloof and, frankly, arrogant don't do anything for me.

And I feel that the 'little sun' thing she is (in)famous for was completely overrated. In fact it made me dislike her even more, because instead of a gentle put-down she just outright humiliates the poor fella for absolutely no good reason.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Yes, the fake death thing has been played out. I guess I'm thinking of Mary Sue more in the context of that she is emotionally and mentally invincible. You could tell her that her sister died and she'd probably reply with something like 'That is... most unfortunate.'

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Aren't cats supposed to have nine lives? She still has more lives to give. Please don't talk bad about my kitty poo I loves her

The term 'Mary Sue' is ultimately useless because it comes down to a question of authenticity, on whether you, as a member of the audience, can personally accept the character in question as a 'real' hero actually capable of performing all those amazing feats. Some people are naturally inclined to question characters that don't match up to their internal framework of what a 'hero' ought to look and act like, looking find fault in order to justify their reflexive distrust.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Biggest disappointment in EW for me was that Yugiri was side-lined.
She has been around since ARR and helped us a lot after the ending to ARR, she was one of the few allies we had left.
All we got from her in EW was a view of her back in the end credits.

Imo she should've taken Doman soldiers with her to help us in Garlemald.

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That was likely a byproduct of her voice actress having been (tragically) murdered in real life.

I think that Y'shtola's time for development will happen over the next few patches and possibly the next expansion. She clearly wants to get back to first and Runar, I think she sees the first as somewhere she belongs. Once she learned she could not stay in the first due to her body slowly dying in the source, she made it her aim to find a way to return. We are seeing the beginnings of her working to bridge the gaps with the other shards so she can make it back to the first. Given how much she is drawn to the first and Runar, I wonder if Runar might be the sundered part of Y'shtola in the first. This would be similar to how Ardbert was drawn to the WoL due to being the sundered part of the WoL. Although that would make for an awkward relationship between Y'shtola and Runar.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

That was likely a byproduct of her voice actress having been (tragically) murdered in real life.

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That was in Heavensward tho, she had a different voice actress in Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Not a fan of her either. Aloof and, frankly, arrogant don't do anything for me.

And I feel that the 'little sun' thing she is (in)famous for was completely overrated. In fact it made me dislike her even more, because instead of a gentle put-down she just outright humiliates the poor fella for absolutely no good reason.

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Magnai is arrogant and self centered. She was just giving him what he deserved.

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Originally Posted by Corue

I love the plot but the writers really cannot help themselves with these fake-out deaths. How many times has Y'shtola "died" now? Three? Poor Papalymo and Moenbryda are gone forever but she always finds some way to come back.

Or maybe this is a meta joke about cats having 9 lives.

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She's never died nor stated to have iirc. They said she was lost to the lifestream or something to that effect. Thats the problem, people either arent payig attention or are purposely omitting details. And anyone who played EW would know they'd return. I don't see folks bitch about Emet coming back from death (If were using that) and saving us from Elidibus.

Say the scions stayed dead, guess what? We lose against The Endsinger as there's no one to use dynamis to shield us from her "enrage". Gg story over. I guess some folks want that

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

She's never died nor stated to have iirc. They said she was lost to the lifestream or something to that effect. Thats the problem, people either arent payig attention or are purposely omitting details. And anyone who played EW would know they'd return. I don't see folks bitch about Emet coming back from death (If were using that) and saving us from Elidibus.

Say the scions stayed dead, guess what? We lose against The Endsinger as there's no one to use dynamis to shield us from her "enrage". Gg story over. I guess some folks want that

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Or they could have killed them and not pulled out a final boss out of nowhere to end the past 8-year-ish plot.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Magnai is arrogant and self centered. She was just giving him what he deserved.

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Considering that he is indeed arrogant and self-centered, the fact that he is so weak in knees when it comes to courtship with a female, the brunt of his humiliation is self-inflicted. Y'shtola kind of just kicked dirt in his face to be honest.

In contrast, she had to reject Runar's not so subtle request that she stay with them(him) on the first, and that was met with a tear filled promise of her return.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Not a fan of her either. Aloof and, frankly, arrogant don't do anything for me.

And I feel that the 'little sun' thing she is (in)famous for was completely overrated. In fact it made me dislike her even more, because instead of a gentle put-down she just outright humiliates the poor fella for absolutely no good reason.

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I too, would like to bring down a guy who's trying to almost creep on every woman in the vicinity a peg or ten. :p Like I love you Magnai... but you asked for it.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

I too, would like to bring down a guy who's trying to almost creep on every woman in the vicinity a peg or ten. :p Like I love you Magnai... but you asked for it.

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Does he creep on them he simple ask them if they could be his Nhamma & if they want to be & if rejected like he constantly is he backs offs, he seems to understand no means no he doesn't continuously hound the women he ask to be his Nhamma.

Anyway per the topic Sthola is kinder boring character.

She just feels like a non character only existing when we need a deus ex machina moment or a cheap shock value moment like ARR end or when Zenos sliced her in half leaving miraculously no scar or ShB jumping into pitt or sacrifice in EW which loved how they had double up on Twins/Uri others wise we would've had Scions to spare to reach her, also after all we essentially learned we're just fine with whole sacrifice a familiar business weird moment after whole 6.0 story.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

[...]
Urianger got his development in Endwalker.
[...]

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I feel like if we were okay with waiting until an expansion that came out less than a year ago for a Pre-ARR Character to get some development, then I'm willing to wait through one more expansion without any Y'shtola development before agreeing with the sentiment here. Since she does seem to be the "Postergirl" of FFXIV, it wouldn't surprise me if perhaps they'd prefer to wait for the opportunity to make her the centerpiece of her own expansion.

I can't comment on the lack of weaknesses though; poor memory, but it seems to me that most if not all of the Scions were just kind of "helpers" to the WoL with little opportunity to showcase any weaknesses or lack thereof until they got an expansion that ordained to focus on them as a major part of the story. It doesn't feel like we've gotten that for Y'shtola yet; and again if we're going to point at finger at her while pointing to a 10+ year "Scion Veteran" who got his development less than a year ago as part of the supporting evidence, I'd like to see the next expansion through first.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

She's never died nor stated to have iirc. They said she was lost to the lifestream or something to that effect. Thats the problem, people either arent payig attention or are purposely omitting details. And anyone who played EW would know they'd return. I don't see folks bitch about Emet coming back from death (If were using that) and saving us from Elidibus.

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That doesn't really go against what I was saying lmao. They keep making characters and them having them die but then not really. I think only about two or three have died and actually stayed dead.

It loses all the drama when you just know "oh they're gonna come back after about 5 minutes" and the only real tension was that they don't get any dialogue for about 3 or 4 scenes.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

Does he creep on them he simple ask them if they could be his Nhamma & if they want to be & if rejected like he constantly is he backs offs, he seems to understand no means no he doesn't continuously hound the women he ask to be his Nhamma.[/HB]

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Unless it's Sadu, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Eross

I mean, she's blind but still can read books...

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Pretty much this. It can be handwaved to "hurr durr books are written with enchanted ink that are infused with Aether!"

No, those are Grimoires / Codex (Codices?). Books used to channel Aether to cast spells. Literal Spell Books.

What's a Mary Sue?

Is that like a 1950s Karen?

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Or they could have killed them and not pulled out a final boss out of nowhere to end the past 8-year-ish plot.

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Yeah because the boss totally came out of nowhere...
Say the Scions die. What then? Where does the story go because apparently a built up final boss doesn't cut it for you people. So what happens instead?

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Or they could have killed them and not pulled out a final boss out of nowhere to end the past 8-year-ish plot.

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Yes the meteon thing should have been the dead ends/ whatever it's called dungeon boss.

I was hoping we'd absorb Hydelyn and Zenos absorb Zodiark or vice versa for the 6.0 final boss, or if they didn't go that route give us Zodiark for final boss cause he's been talked about for expansions, meteon wasnt that great and came out of nowhere.

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Originally Posted by VictorTheed

What's a Mary Sue?

Is that like a 1950s Karen?

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A Mary Sue is a idealized self-insert of the writer into the story. They have no flaws and are better than everyone else at everything they do.

Y'shtola is not a Mary Sue. She's just a character who isn't interesting to the original poster. Personally, I like her.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

A Mary Sue is a idealized self-insert of the writer into the story. They have no flaws and are better than everyone else at everything they do.

Y'shtola is not a Mary Sue. She's just a character who isn't interesting to the original poster. Personally, I like her.

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Ty for the explanation my friend, I've never heard that name be used like that B4, the only time I've heard that name was when someone was referring to some female in the early 1900s who was named Mary Sue.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

A Mary Sue is a idealized self-insert of the writer into the story. They have no flaws and are better than everyone else at everything they do.

Y'shtola is not a Mary Sue. She's just a character who isn't interesting to the original poster. Personally, I like her.

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A traditional Mary Sue is characterized by someone who didn't "earn their power" and doesn't have weakness, which marginally applies to Y'shtola.

I mean, what exactly is her weakness? Blindness? Doesn't seem to affect her in the slightest. Before the blindness? Arrogance maybe but it was never a shortcoming that had any consequence.

In my opinion Y'shtola isn't a Mary Sue - I feel a lot of people tend to mistake the symptoms for core issue, as being incredibly talented and well liked does go hand in hand with Suedom...when the outstanding trait is bending the universal and indisputable law to one's whim while everyone else must play by the rules and explicitly so. Her trouble is that there's very little pushback or personal failure broadcast like Alphinaud/Urianger/Thancred etc to counterbalance her progidious mastery of magic. Nobody ever gets the better of her verbally either, thereby contributing to a sense she's elevated above even the remarkable. In addition, the constant out of game promotion exacerbates this sense of exclusivity. Nobody else has a hideously expensive doll. She was the face of XIV in Dissidia. The Mogstation features her ARR, Stormblood and Shadowbringers outfit. And so on...you get the gist.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Yeah because the boss totally came out of nowhere...
Say the Scions die. What then? Where does the story go because apparently a built up final boss doesn't cut it for you people. So what happens instead?

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Name me one time where Endsinger was hinted at or even named prior to 6.0. She came from nowhere. She appears and die in 6.0 that not called being ''build up''. We had Zodiark portrayed as the BBEG since 1.0, he should have been the final boss or used by the final boss at some extend.

Im not saying murder all Scion btw, im just saying it okay to let some die, Papalymo died yet we survived the next few Xpac didn't we?

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Name me one time where Endsinger was hinted at or even named prior to 6.0. She came from nowhere. She appears and die in 6.0 that not called being ''build up''. We had Zodiark portrayed as the BBEG since 1.0, he should have been the final boss or used by the final boss at some extend.

Im not saying murder all Scion btw, im just saying it okay to let some die, Papalymo died yet we survived the next few Xpac didn't we?

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The final boss of Stormblood was Shinryu, a boss that was never hinted at prior. Literally came out of nowhere :p

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The final boss of Stormblood was Shinryu, a boss that was never hinted at prior. Literally came out of nowhere :p

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Did... did you skip Heavensward at the end of its patch cycle? Shinryu did not "come out of nowhere". This is why people get annoyed when people skip the story/cutscenes (not saying you did but.. if you didn't you would remember the whole part of him coming into existence and what happened because of it).

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Originally Posted by Caddo

Did... did you skip Heavensward at the end of its patch cycle? Shinryu did not "come out of nowhere". This is why people get annoyed when people skip the story/cutscenes (not saying you did but.. if you didn't you would remember the whole part of him coming into existence and what happened because of it).

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Right, but he came out of nowhere at that point. Never mentioned at all before 3.55. Thats basically the same thing lol.

It was a big diversion as we all thought it would be Rhalgr, not some random dragon.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

A traditional Mary Sue is characterized by someone who didn't "earn their power" and doesn't have weakness, which marginally applies to Y'shtola.

I mean, what exactly is her weakness? Blindness? Doesn't seem to affect her in the slightest. Before the blindness? Arrogance maybe but it was never a shortcoming that had any consequence.

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Well her blindness is linked to something that will eventually lead to her end one way or another. And as that eventually comes closer, she won't really be able to do as much so she will just get weaker and weaker as time moves on.

Meh. I like Y'shtola. Never had a problem with her. She's been one of the few Scions that you can always count in for anything and she can take care of herself without heavily relying on us.

The only thing the XIV writers messed up with her is not actually explaining and showing in detail the pros and cons of her eye sight. Otherwise, she's a perfectly fine character. Not every character needs an emotional growth arc to make them great. Some characters have already gone through that off screen and are just perfectly fine the way they are.

I'd much rather have the ever dependable Y'shtola around because she can always do something the other Scions can't: Get her own sh*t together and fix her own problems.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

Otherwise, she's a perfectly fine character. Not every character needs an emotional growth arc to make them great. Some characters have already gone through that off screen and are just perfectly fine the way they are.

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Why are they going through arcs off-screen when the whole point of the story is to see that actually happen in-game? Why are characters with nothing to do being prioritized over those with unresolved business? Granted, Y'shtola is finally doing something useful when it comes to the Void Exploration and thus *finally* doing something to advance her goals, but she has a long way to go before I can consider her redeemed.

I cannot consider characters who do not evolve or grow as "fine." Her continued presence represents stagnation and the fact that no matter what happens she always comes away completely unscathed makes for a story with hardly any stakes. This goes for not only her but all the Scions. You can't ask me to care about these characters when they don't do anything and are never in any serious danger.

After an expansion set against the literal end of the world when the stakes should have been at their highest, we wished upon a magic rock and managed to invalidate any meaningful sacrifices the Scions may have done for us. But anything to keep the fandom's comfort characters alive I suppose. Not even Stranger of Paradise pulled ridiculous plot devices like that at the last minute.

The ending of that game somehow managed to make me feel more emotional than the end of Endwalker. Jack Garland earned his finale song "My Way" at his journey's end, but Endwalker hardly earned the right to use the theme of Final Fantasy after the massive narrative failures in its later portions.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Why are they going through arcs off-screen when the whole point of the story is to see that actually happen in-game? Why are characters with nothing to do being prioritized over those with unresolved business? Granted, Y'shtola is finally doing something useful when it comes to the Void Exploration and thus *finally* doing something to advance her goals, but she has a long way to go before I can consider her redeemed.

I cannot consider characters who do not evolve or grow as "fine." Her continued presence represents stagnation and the fact that no matter what happens she always comes away completely unscathed makes for a story with hardly any stakes. This goes for not only her but all the Scions. You can't ask me to care about these characters when they don't do anything and are never in any serious danger.

After an expansion set against the literal end of the world when the stakes should have been at their highest, we wished upon a magic rock and managed to invalidate any meaningful sacrifices the Scions may have done for us. But anything to keep the fandom's comfort characters alive I suppose. Not even Stranger of Paradise pulled ridiculous plot devices like that at the last minute.

The ending of that game somehow managed to make me feel more emotional than the end of Endwalker. Jack Garland earned his finale song "My Way" at his journey's end, but Endwalker hardly earned the right to use the theme of Final Fantasy after the massive narrative failures in its later portions.

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I agree. FFXIV has an issue of focus IMO, we got a lot of characters or plots to uncover, but they're only so much you can get in one patch. So we end up with Lyse being poorly developed until Stormblood where she gets the spotlight, then goes back to being useless the next xpacs. We got 3 major faction yet it feel like Uldah is the only one where plot happend. Like seriously, can you recall an important Npc or event that happend past ARR from Limsa or Gridania that ain't the faction leaders?

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Why are they going through arcs off-screen when the whole point of the story is to see that actually happen in-game? Why are characters with nothing to do being prioritized over those with unresolved business? Granted, Y'shtola is finally doing something useful when it comes to the Void Exploration and thus *finally* doing something to advance her goals, but she has a long way to go before I can consider her redeemed.

I cannot consider characters who do not evolve or grow as "fine." Her continued presence represents stagnation and the fact that no matter what happens she always comes away completely unscathed makes for a story with hardly any stakes. This goes for not only her but all the Scions. You can't ask me to care about these characters when they don't do anything and are never in any serious danger.

After an expansion set against the literal end of the world when the stakes should have been at their highest, we wished upon a magic rock and managed to invalidate any meaningful sacrifices the Scions may have done for us. But anything to keep the fandom's comfort characters alive I suppose.

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I felt nothing in Ultima Thule, since Y'shtola herself mentioned the powers of the magic rock and I knew we would use it to bring them back. Then they joke about their predicament after being brought back, as if they themselves know they are untouchable. Why should I worry about the characters who are joking about they wish they at least had a scar from the experience, and that they kill gods every day after their morning tea and it's just another day? There's no sense of tension for these characters. It really disappoints me since Yoshi-P teased that something heavy would happen to the characters, implying at least one character death. Now, it is all too predictable. I am hoping Y'shtola gets some development in the 6.x patches, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

Does he creep on them he simple ask them if they could be his Nhamma & if they want to be & if rejected like he constantly is he backs offs, he seems to understand no means no he doesn't continuously hound the women he ask to be his Nhamma.

Anyway per the topic Sthola is kinder boring character.

She just feels like a non character only existing when we need a deus ex machina moment or a cheap shock value moment like ARR end or when Zenos sliced her in half leaving miraculously no scar or ShB jumping into pitt or sacrifice in EW which loved how they had double up on Twins/Uri others wise we would've had Scions to spare to reach her, also after all we essentially learned we're just fine with whole sacrifice a familiar business weird moment after whole 6.0 story.

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Unfortunately for a pretty big portion of the community, whenever it’s a man hitting on a woman it’s seen as “creepy and gross.” But if it’s a hot lady making comments about spanking or a female character hitting on a dude it’s “so cute and yas qween.” Double standards and all that.

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Originally Posted by CosmicCoqui

Well her blindness is linked to something that will eventually lead to her end one way or another. And as that eventually comes closer, she won't really be able to do as much so she will just get weaker and weaker as time moves on.

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Technically at least, but the truth is SE can not let her bow out or even worse ... die. Shes by now a flagship character and managed the cross game jump.
From forbidden magic throwing her into the lifestream (I'm fuzzy on the details here been to long but that's what happened in 2.5 right) to being hit by Zenos over to sucking on her own lifeforce for a loooong time. Nothing left a dent, and nothing ever will. After seeing who survived 6.0 and how 6.1 went, i have no hopes that their going to replace anyone for this "new adventure".

It feels like Yshtola was meant to be offed at one point, SE however realised dead cat girls don't make profit and decided "no shes ok :)", i also have the feeing Zenos was meant to be yeeted earlier and Emets role after Shb was meant to be over, basically i believe SE will adjust things to make lucky hits with characters "fit" the narrative even if it was not intended before.

But that's just gut feeling and is likely wrong.

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Originally Posted by Droxybrobotnik

The entire story is a big Mary Sue, dude. What do you think would have happened if that airship has not crashed into the shield generator in the castrum? Or if the Garleans had put the generator inside the shield.

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funny is that argument no longer works,.



There is no Airship crash anymore at the castrum, its now a single Shield gen destroyed by cid... we are litteraly not needed honestly..

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Name me one time where Endsinger was hinted at or even named prior to 6.0. She came from nowhere. She appears and die in 6.0 that not called being ''build up''. We had Zodiark portrayed as the BBEG since 1.0, he should have been the final boss or used by the final boss at some extend.

Im not saying murder all Scion btw, im just saying it okay to let some die, Papalymo died yet we survived the next few Xpac didn't we?

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this is an easy one..


ARGUABLY depending on how wide we throw the net, and how 2direct" you want it..


References to a potential idea similiar to ENdsinger WAS dropped in ARR. During the Ending cutscene after punching Lahabrea hydelin talks about "the dark one, residing in the abyss, for while it yet lives, the world may never know true peace"(heavily paraphrased) that Line, at the time, was ALMOST 100% taken to mean zodiark givne the namedrop a few moments later, and it is possible(if not likely) that it was intended to be about zodiark, but the wording, and hindsight of EW, makes it fit FAR better to Endsinger, as hydealin would not have said "while it yet lives" given she didnt want you to murder zodiark.


Yes, this reference was A) very likely retconned later, and B) very obtuse, it is however, a very possible "foreshadow" about somethign other then zodiark, ESPECIALY after we killed him in EW