Trends in content types and faux difficulty

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Originally Posted by Scytale

By this I mean anything else, literally ANYTHING.

Go craft, mine, socialize, raindeer ifrit, rum through town in a Subligar.

If you do the same thing 20 times a day, day after day. I dont care what it is...you will get burnt out. If you can say "well I've done everything!". Here is my recommendation to you then

Grab a peice of paper and tape it to your screen and write on it "Game Over! You Won!" Pat yourself on the back and move on.

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I rather not do what you do on ur free time and run around town in a subligar... I rather get equipment and better my character that way.

i agree with the op. content should reward skill and dedication not luck, several times saw people doing ifrit for the first/second time and they got the weapon i wanted and i did those fights lots of times, i felt like it was a cheap shot from SE, while i was happy for them, sometimes they didnt even had the class/job leveled up, so yeah i would love to see more of the op. ideas implemented, no dumb downs just what is fair, lockouts doesnt seem to be a problem once we have more stuff to do, that will give to the dev team enough time to get quality content all the time.

In durandal you can see several linkshells spaming new content like crazy, in a week you can see several people with full sets or several weapons per character, so in a few words spam content is not the best option, no acomplishment just wait

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Originally Posted by Scytale

If you do the same thing 20 times a day, day after day. I dont care what it is...you will get burnt out. If you can say "well I've done everything!". Here is my recommendation to you then
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Yeah that's about anything really, even in real life. What I'm trying to get at is, this is going back to the OP, people shouldn't be largely rewarded based on just luck alone, but based on skill AND Luck. Sure keep the RNG so that content makes you keep going back to it but if its .10% chance of getting the item that's not content, that's just a dumb way to get people going back to it. It's not skills anymore if you know exactly what to do ._. I know I know, the whole luck and skill thing contradicts each other but yeah... if luck is mostly the only thing that brings you back to that said content that's just dumb <_<

If a totem system was in CC/AV, this would be a whole different story.

I agree that the spammable content is a horrible MMO design. The content gets very boring way too quickly, which is why most (more successful MMO's) put timers on how often you can enter a dungeon. The drop rates don't have to be greatly improved, just improved enough to match the timers.

Problem is there's always going to be people complaining that they have to wait before doing the dungeon again. People want their gear asap but when everyone in the game gets it within the first few weeks they then start complaining about it.

For the end-game content they should really follow the model of some dungeons having 24-hour timers and the biggest raids with the best gear having a week long reset timer. Of course they need more content to make up for it, but even a lack of content isn't a reason for following a very bad model of spamming.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

i hate to disagree, but at this point until 2.0 there's not much choice besides adding spammable content. with the fact people are so starved for content because of the pathetic amount of endgame content in the game right now. when only adding 1 piece of content every few months it's not enough to keep people interested if it had a long lockout. people run that one piece over and over because it's the only new piece. when the next piece comes out people are sick of the previous content.

i'm hoping once 2.0 releases it will come with massive amounts of content so they would be able to add a lockout. the problem right now though is if it had a 3 day lockout on new content i know myself and alot of others that would only sign in once every 3 days to run it and then sign out for the next 3 days. we've already completed what's in game repeatedly so there's nothing else to sign in, for the most part.

the biggest issue they have with long lockouts on content is that this game has been out over 18 months and in that time we've only had a small amount of content developed for the capped level players. there's actually a higher amount of mid level content than there is for end game as far as pure numbers go.

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100% agree Poet. Why would they bother giving us content that is deep and lasting for a server and UI system they are getting ready to dump in a few months. I feel like all the content we ave been givin so far for "end-game" is meant to just keep us busy while they rework the game. The true content that I think shows a better example of the direction the game is headed is things like the class quests, materia, hamlets, and GC related stuff that will clearly be in the game well after 2.0. I think most people need to remember that the reason we keep getting instanced content is because of the shitty server system. I think we should reserve our judgement until post 2.0, when we begin getting content designed for the new version fo the game and not the old.

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Originally Posted by Sol_Aureus

With each update I've become increasingly worried about the direction that FFXIV's content is headed in...

So please SE, I'm begging you, move away from the "spamable content + abysmally low drop rate" model for everything. IT IS NOT FUN.

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Hi Sol,

Excellent post! I totally agree with your sentiments that we should have more Content that rewards Skill over Luck.

Though one thing that the current system has that *is* nice is the freedom to able to cater to any player's schedule. Having 3 Day Lockouts would make it pretty difficult for those not doing statics, or those not having the same free time as someone else. For example, if your friends / LS did AV on Tuesday with a 3 Day Lockout, but you weren't available on Saturday (next time it's open), but were on Sunday, if your friends / LS did it on Saturday, you'd be left out (and they couldn't even help you try again on Sunday) with the lockout timer.

Regarding Ifrit and Moogle (not to defend Yoshida-san), that whole crappy Loot System / Drop Rate was done blatantly as a Time Sink. Sadly, with the team split with 2.0 duties and keeping us busy / "happy" in the meantime, they only had time to do *1* Primal Fight for an entire Patch (~3 months).

So it's pretty obvious in SE's eyes, they were probably thinking, "How do we keep the players busy for 3 months with just 1 Boss Fight (Ifrit)?"

Answer: "Random Number Generator + Super Low Drop Rate + New Crappy FORCED Untradeable Loot In Your Inventory System" :(

Same for Moogle.

That being said, maybe we should offer up some ideas on what would reward more player skill (instead of RNG).

Here are some ideas to increase Drop Rate / Extra Chest(?) to reward Players for their efforts instead of mind-numbingly Low Drop Rates:

* Have Alternate (Harder) Paths / Side Bosses in the Dungeon that if you have time to beat / have the skill to beat, will reward the party with an Extra Chest / Better Drop Rate.

* No Deaths (or if that's too punitive, "Less Than ~3 Deaths" or something). Essentially a take on the classic Arcade "No Continues" idea. No one dying (even once) on a Raid would reward a Higher Drop Rate, or Extra Chest.

* Incapacitations. Perhaps parties taking the time to get Incapacitations on Bosses, would be rewarded with a Higher Drop Rate / Extra Chest? This would matter more on Bosses that had Dangerous Directional Attacks (for example, Chimera with its Poison Back Attack), so that the party has to take the added Risk to avoid / survive Rear Attacks, and Incapacitate a Boss (all Limbs?) to get an Extra Chest / Higher Drop Rate.

* Killing All "Boss Adds / Helpers" - Perhaps on some Boss Fights, there are unique Adds (like the Chirada / Suparna idea, but maybe they were Optional). Parties that took the time (and risk) to go out and destroy all the Boss Helpers / Adds (where they were optional) could reward with an Extra Chest / Higher Drop Rate.

I'm sure fellow players can come up with many more ideas.

But the bottom line is that I would rather repeat content FAR LESS, but have it be more challenging with HIGHER DROP RATES, than spam repeat content hundreds of times and just have it be based on Luck. :( :mad:

If you think about it, even the big "Crafting-based System" - Materia - is based on the same crappy Luck / Random Number Generator System we see in Dungeons / Primals. I've seen someone get lucky and get a Double Meld on their first try (and they only have 1 Craft leveled), and I've had friends with All Crafts Leveled to Max blow up ~15 Double Melds in a Row before getting a success.

Just like a friend who got their desired Ifrit's Harpoon on the *1st* Ifrit Fight (with us), vs. myself, who has over 250 Wins on Ifrit and still have no Harpoon.

It's all just rolling the dice. :( Yoshi P seems to rather favor everyone "playing the Lottery" (random number generator) with an equally abysmal chance to roll to win, vs. rewarding SKILL.

Yoshida-san, I think many people would rather earn their drops and be rewarded for their Skill / Effort, instead of suffering the Random Number Generator / Crappy Drop Rates System we have now.

Sure people may finish getting their Drops sooner (before a New Patch comes out), but that's OK! Let the players *choose* HOW they want to spend their extra time.

They could actually (gasp), repeat the content (if they had to spam it far less) for their Friends / LS members / Strangers, or decide to build up Crafts / work on Triple, Quad Materia Melding, etc.

But ultimately, let them decide. Right now, many people are burning out on this trend, and the Hamlet Defense / Drop Rate you have now for AF Weapons Quest and Militia Gear is only continuing this horrible trend.

Thanks.

If there's anything just as bad as horrible drop rates. It's the fact that you can waste all that time on crappy items too.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

100% agree Poet. Why would they bother giving us content that is deep and lasting for a server and UI system they are getting ready to dump in a few months. I feel like all the content we ave been givin so far for "end-game" is meant to just keep us busy while they rework the game. The true content that I think shows a better example of the direction the game is headed is things like the class quests, materia, hamlets, and GC related stuff that will clearly be in the game well after 2.0. I think most people need to remember that the reason we keep getting instanced content is because of the shitty server system. I think we should reserve our judgement until post 2.0, when we begin getting content designed for the new version fo the game and not the old.

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That's all fine and well, but it has some of us worried that their model of "extending content through shitty drop rates" will be the status quo post 2.0. And the reason that that worry has grown (the reason some of us are here now, asking whether this is the direction they have planned for us post 2.0) is that the more recent content (Vale/CC/Hamlet) has even lower drop rates than prior content (Dark Hold/Ifrit/Moogle). I see a trend like that, and I can hope that it's better post 2.0, but I also see what direction it's going in and can't help worrying about it.

I understand that they aren't going to be coming out w/ any groundbreaking content on these crappy servers, it's that the method they are using to falsely extend content is a slap in the face for anyone who brings their A-game but gets unlucky over and over, especially since some of us have stuck with the game since the beginning through the horrible horrible times and the good, holding onto our faith in our new dev. team. I'm not saying the content is going to be the greatest right now, but please extend it some other way (ie: 1-3 day lockouts, or whatever) that doesn't just burn everyone out.

Lastly, for anyone who replies to my post saying "well don't run it as often", go read the rest of this thread first, that topic has been thoroughly covered and Issaru has the math to back me up.

Lockouts aren't the answer there has to be something else. At least not the 24+ ones. Enough to make it unfeasible to spam but short enough to prevent "id like to play this game and do that dungeon I like but I actually cant for 36 more hours." Also that obviously applies to wins only or otherwise people will never take any chances or experiment.

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Originally Posted by Phen

Lockouts aren't the answer there has to be something else. At least not the 24+ ones. Enough to make it unfeasible to spam but short enough to prevent "id like to play this game and do that dungeon I like but I actually cant for 36 more hours." Also that obviously applies to wins only or otherwise people will never take any chances or experiment.

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It's a matter of the method applied.

WoW Dungeons
- Dedicated server for instances
- No time limit
- guaranteed level-appropriate drops
- Regular dungeons can be "reset" a certain number of times for spammage
- Heroic dungeons reset every 24 hours
- Numerous quest objectives tie into things that go on in the dungeons (pre-Cataclysm. I'll be the first to say the changes to dungeon-related quests in Cata was pretty damn terrible)
- (Post-TBC) Secondary loot system that encouraged repeating dungeons (Badges in 2.0 and 3.0, Justice/Valor Points in 4.0)

FFXIV Dungeons
- Time limit
- Non-guaranteed drops
- Some GC objectives are loosely tied to the dungeons in the form of repeatable quests
- "Speed Runs" implemented as an attempt to create difficulty
- Apple

XIV still has room for improvement.

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Originally Posted by Isaaru

Lux... no.

This is how it works without a wall of text. The chance of failing all 100 times with a 97% failure rate is 0.97^100. This is equivalent to 0.0476 or 4.76% chance. The chance of failing 10 times with the same rate of failure is 0.97^10 which equals 0.7374 or 73.74%. You have a lower chance of failure with more repetitions.

Yes in the end everyone will have the same rate of drop after massive amounts of runs, but you will not gain more equipment per day only running 10 times than a person who will run 100 times. It's the same proportional loss no matter what. You succeed 3% of the time and lose 97%.

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I never said you would get more equipment per day. What I am saying is that the more time you invest per day in losing odds, the more time you lose per day. Is it proportionally the same? Sure. But wasting 10 hours is a lot more exhausting than wasting 2 hours. You continue repetitions, but in measured amounts that wont leave you burned out. That was the point.

As far as statistics through repetition goes, I appreciate the lesson but I fail to see how that affects the probability of individual outcomes. All you've told me is that a given probability of failing x number of times/100. Does that mean attempt 50 has a higher probability of success than attempt 15? Does attempt 99 have higher chance of success than attempt 2? From what I've read and understood, probability of individual outcomes will always remain constant. Calculating the probability of a series of outcomes (ie getting 6 drops out of 100 runs, or failing 100 times out of 100) should not affect the probability of individual outcomes (each successive run). If this is grossly incorrect then please do more math for me. But I can't find a damn thing that states otherwise at the moment.

Anyway looking at the coin flip example I appreciate the correction. Still, it doesn't change the fact that spamming something doesnt help you in a low-odds game. What matters is consistent trials. If you consistently try you will succeed, but you can't be consistent if you get burnt out and quit. Hence, its quite foolish to waste 97% of your effort in ways that will burn you out. It is much smarter, and equally as effective I might add, to spread out your trials in a way that failure will not have much of an effect on you.

EDIT: As for the random hater who contributed nothing intelligent to the discussion, I love you. No homo. And i'm sorry but being corrected does not shut me up. Call me incessant if you will, but as a smart man I really have no fear of being corrected and saying something incorrect. It only makes me smarter. Only children or ppl with low-self esteem run away from discussions because they were incorrect about something. C'mon son lol...don't place your insecurities on me.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

It's a matter of the method applied.

WoW Dungeons
- Dedicated server for instances
- No time limit
- guaranteed level-appropriate drops
- Regular dungeons can be "reset" a certain number of times for spammage
- Heroic dungeons reset every 24 hours
- Numerous quest objectives tie into things that go on in the dungeons (pre-Cataclysm. I'll be the first to say the changes to dungeon-related quests in Cata was pretty damn terrible)
- (Post-TBC) Secondary loot system that encouraged repeating dungeons (Badges in 2.0 and 3.0, Justice/Valor Points in 4.0)

FFXIV Dungeons
- Time limit
- Non-guaranteed drops
- Some GC objectives are loosely tied to the dungeons in the form of repeatable quests
- "Speed Runs" implemented as an attempt to create difficulty
- Apple

XIV still has room for improvement.

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Well obviously, and theres certainly ways WoW's raids were flawed too. My brief foray ran me into some which you see already here: do that quest/objective/etc some other time we dont have time (even on something like a non-batraal darkhold). Alot of guarenteed stuff is vendor trash- etc etc etc.

There are things to learn there too though dont get me wrong.

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Originally Posted by Phen

Well obviously, and theres certainly ways WoW's raids were flawed too.

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Definitely. Pre-4.0 you could "steal" another guild's raid ID by running with them, then entering the instance with your own group, clearing it while the guys that started the raid are offline so that by the time they log on to finish the raid, their ID had already killed all bosses so they had to wait until the next reset. There recently was a bit of a contreoversy because someone stole a server first kill for Madness of Deathwing by using the personal raid ID system implemented with 4.0. No system is perfect, really.

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My brief foray ran me into some which you see already here: do that quest/objective/etc some other time we dont have time

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This kinda depends. If it was really out of the way (like killing the Chief Architect guy in Blackrock Depths when your group was there to kill the Emperor on the opposite side of the dungeon), I can understand.

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Alot of guarenteed stuff is vendor trash- etc etc etc.

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This is more a result of the lack of a way to shard stuff that drops into sellable items. At least in WoW you could get enchanting materials from drops no one wanted, provided you had an enchanter in your group.

You could implement something similar. Maybe have the group leader receive a "Volatile Materia Assimilator" upon entering a dungeon, which can be used to break down any drops no one wants/needs to materia or dark matter or something. The assimilator would "break" after exiting the dungeon, forcing you to get a new one upon re-entry.

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Originally Posted by TerahValeth

but please extend it some other way (ie: 1-3 day lockouts, or whatever) that doesn't just burn everyone out.

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Originally Posted by Phen

Lockouts aren't the answer there has to be something else. At least not the 24+ ones. Enough to make it unfeasible to spam but short enough to prevent "id like to play this game and do that dungeon I like but I actually cant for 36 more hours." Also that obviously applies to wins only or otherwise people will never take any chances or experiment.

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"Some other way, or whatever." I'm being purposely vague. It is not helpful to the game developers for us to tell them HOW to fix things in the game, only THAT it needs fixing. So I'm not telling them what solution to use, they are the game developers, we are the consumers. It is our job to enjoy the game; their's to ensure we have the greatest chance to do so.

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Originally Posted by TerahValeth

"Some other way, or whatever." It is not helpful to the game developers for us to tell them HOW to fix things in the game, only THAT it needs fixing. So I'm not telling them what solution to use, they are the game developers, we are the consumers. It is our job to enjoy the game; their's to ensure we do.

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Well they can only ensure enjoyment to a degree, since people have different needs when it comes to enjoyment. For instance, there are those that love spamming content, and there are those that absolutely hate it. SE is taking steps to appeal to both crowds of pplz so I think everything will be fine. Right now the anti-spammers are more vocal because they spammed something when no one forced them to spam it. Just because content is spammable doesn't mean it has to be spammed. At some point players need to take personal responsibility for their enjoyment of the game. Too many players lack self-control and common sense in such gross amounts that they blame the developers for their current frustrations/burn out/etc. The game does a rather good job of giving you plenty of options and avenues in regards to gear, due to all of the side-grades, so there's no living reason to spam anything when you don't want to....outside of personal ones. And let me tell, devs can't fix personal problems. The reason for burnout has nothing to do with devs, it has everything to do with players. Devs can't fix that.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

The game does a rather good job of giving you plenty of options and avenues in regards to gear, due to all of the side-grades, so there's no living reason to spam anything when you don't want to....

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Plenty of options that ALL focus on luck (so no variety there). The burnout doesn't necessarily come from hitting Vale hours a day, it's when you vary your activities and realize they are all the same. It's the same luck>skill everywhere I look. There are really no options for those that don't want spamable content. I'm glad you are happy w/ the way the game is, but where are the "options" for the rest of us?

Also, idk why you chimed in, but my reply was to clarify that I wasn't telling SE HOW to fix things, it had nothing to do w/ the subject of your response.

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Originally Posted by TerahValeth

Plenty of options that ALL focus on luck (so no variety there). The burnout doesn't necessarily come from hitting Vale hours a day, it's when you vary your activities and realize they are all the same. It's the same luck>skill everywhere I look. There are really no options for those that don't want spamable content. I'm glad you are happy w/ the way the game is, but where are the "options" for the rest of us?

Also, idk why you chimed in, but my reply was to clarify that I wasn't telling SE HOW to fix things, it had nothing to do w/ the subject of your response.

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I chimed in because I felt like chiming in, I find it fun. You guys were having a discussion, it looked like fun, so here I am. And there are options actually, I can think of 2 that have absolutely nothing to do with luck at all: GC gear and Garuda weapons. Oh yeah there's also the new class gear-sets as well. Course the latter is only really awesome if you double meld it all, so there is a wee luck involved. Even if you just single meld it though, its still a viable piece of gear. Not the best, but still viable. That aside though, GC gear and Garuda weapons are some of the best out there with sanctions/set bonuses. Are there lots of options? No. But I'm sure you understand these sorts of things take time. They are slowly adding in gear/content variety, so the best remedy is a bit of patience.

Btw if you want my honest opinion, the whole thing is blown WAY out of proportion. Skill > all in this game at the end of the day, barring any significant discrepancies in gear. For now all you can do is work with whatever you can get that doesn't cause you pain and suffering, all the while waiting for better options.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

A mentality that carried over from FFXI.

Anyway, this is where we can get a little philosophical, though at the same time it may be a hint of what is to come. Simply put, choices and things like the job system are counter-productive in settings such as these. Because the moment an alternative exists that makes things easier to bear, it WILL be the preferred course of action. The fact that FFXI players are conditioned to go with the preferred strategies/set ups and almost never stray from those "standards" does little to help. That's why you have guys like me who have played other MMOs with more openness in group compositions and strategies going "huh?". And why we end up arguing for more inclusive content instead of niche gameplay.

In all honesty, I don't know what can be changed to encourage people to start strategizing and using more varied group comps. As long as stacking classes has no real negatives to it, that's what some will lean to. As I mentioned in another thread, it's one thing when having 9 paladins in a 25-man raid is a freak ocurrence and generates lulz. It's another when you're purposely stacking classes to clear content.

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I agree with this. I played WoW for a bit in 06/07 which many considered the golden age of the game and at the time I did like how inclusive it was to all classes. Of course back then I preferred the flexibility of FFXI's job system but in retrospect WoW did a fabulous job of making the game inclusive to those who played various classes. I was never turned down for various raids or dungeons even though I played a ret PLD which back then was apparently among the weakest.

I'm sure forcing you to play as one job had a lot to do with this, but it was fantastic being able to contribute to a party no matter what you brought. It was a great feeling having a varied set-up and having everyone say, "ok let's do this no problem!"

Compare that to FFXIV where there will always be somebody who speaks up or says outright, "we need more blm for this, we need more ranged/warriors for this, lol drg and DD War GTFO it's too dangerous to melee."

This may seem off-topic but when combined with the luck based system, short dungeons and speed run bullshit, it adds very little incentive to the player base to try and do things differently as content fatigue sets in. Eventually it becomes, "lets get this over with as fast as possible so load up on blms for CC so we can speed run this as fast as possible."

Finally there was a much more active community in WoW back when I played in 06/07 and though I preferred FFXI to WoW back then it was a fantastic feeling being able to group up with a bunch of randoms with a weird set up and still accomplish a dungeon through hardwork and perseverance. It was not easy back then but Blizzard did a fantastic job of making each class viable for various raids. In addition while drop rates were rare they were nowhere near as absurd as this games and there was a variety of content available to give people options instead of having to grind out the same thing over and over again.

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Originally Posted by TerahValeth

That's all fine and well, but it has some of us worried that their model of "extending content through shitty drop rates" will be the status quo post 2.0. And the reason that that worry has grown (the reason some of us are here now, asking whether this is the direction they have planned for us post 2.0) is that the more recent content (Vale/CC/Hamlet) has even lower drop rates than prior content (Dark Hold/Ifrit/Moogle). I see a trend like that, and I can hope that it's better post 2.0, but I also see what direction it's going in and can't help worrying about it.

I understand that they aren't going to be coming out w/ any groundbreaking content on these crappy servers, it's that the method they are using to falsely extend content is a slap in the face for anyone who brings their A-game but gets unlucky over and over, especially since some of us have stuck with the game since the beginning through the horrible horrible times and the good, holding onto our faith in our new dev. team. I'm not saying the content is going to be the greatest right now, but please extend it some other way (ie: 1-3 day lockouts, or whatever) that doesn't just burn everyone out.

Lastly, for anyone who replies to my post saying "well don't run it as often", go read the rest of this thread first, that topic has been thoroughly covered and Issaru has the math to back me up.

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Oh, don't get me wrong, the new servers could still be crap and the content they continue to give us after 2.0 could be just as shitty as some of the things we have been given so far. My point though is, asking them not to add more stuff like this to 2.0 is moot since they probably already have the next years worth of content done and in the testing phase (man if they don't they are gonna be in deep trouble after relaunch). Our only option is to wait and see how it is in a few months and decide to continue playing or quit after that. I don't feel like we can change a whole lot of whats about to happen in the next 5 months, its already been decided upon.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

Oh, don't get me wrong, the new servers could still be crap and the content they continue to give us after 2.0 could be just as shitty as some of the things we have been given so far. My point though is, asking them not to add more stuff like this to 2.0 is moot since they probably already have the next years worth of content done and in the testing phase (man if they don't they are gonna be in deep trouble after relaunch). Our only option is to wait and see how it is in a few months and decide to continue playing or quit after that. I don't feel like we can change a whole lot of whats about to happen in the next 5 months, its already been decided upon.

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Forgive me if I don't feel that complacency is the answer.

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Originally Posted by TerahValeth

Forgive me if I don't feel that complacency is the answer.

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Facing reality and being complacent can sometimes SEEM similar, but in this particular case are actually very different things.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

Facing reality and being complacent can sometimes SEEM similar, but in this particular case are actually very different things.

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I'm fully aware that this thread stands to make little actual headway if any. That still doesn't mean that everyone should stay complacent and keep silent about the matter, that doesn't mean we are delusional (ie: not facing reality, as you put it).

But I've stuck w/ this game since beta, and I think WE have a right to know at this point if our faith in this game has been ill-spent, or if 2.0 is indeed a light at the end of the tunnel.

When a thread has reached the debate of debating debating, it's a dead thread.

just read a post made by the OP some time age

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Originally Posted by Sol_Aureus

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

This stuff needs to stay very rare, otherwise there's no accomplishment in obtaining it and everyone will have full darklight sets within a month. This keeps these dungeons relevant longer, so people will still be running these in later patches so they can get darklight gear.

I don't want stuff handed to me, I want to have to work for it.

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Originally Posted by Hippo

just read a post made by the OP some time age

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I don't think he was fully aware of how god awful the drop rate in the dungeons are when he posted that.

The fact the gear is rare is a good thing, you shouldn't just see anyone wearing it. The complaint here is the conditions we go through, the months this content has been out and people sweat blood in these dungeons just to get nothing, luckily one piece. I know I have done this 400+ times and all I have to show for it is only a pair of gauntlets.

Yes, something should be rare, but not to the point that you do the dungeon 400+ times and get little to nothing for it. Its simply cruel and unfair. And I don't mean someone out lotted any of my gear either, I have never seen the Light DPS feet or body drop ever in those 400+ runs.

This is a completely unfair system that rewards to the lucky and I really hope it doesn't come to 2.0, because it will inevitably burn to the ground if people go under these conditions constantly. Yoshida said he wants gear outdated by a few month span. Well, how are we influenced to get gear in this game if we can't even get it because of their terrible RNG system? I want the best gear obtained through my experience and skill at the game, not by a lottery.

I may go into QQ mode, but at least the old developers rewarded you for your time. There was a pretty decent chance a chest in FNM rewarded you with an item to trade in for a nice piece of gear. The new team apparently are getting inspiration from Korean MMO's and saying to themselves "Ohh, players love grinding the same thing over and over at a consistent basis with almost no chance of reward!". While Tanaka had a lot of bad ideas and led a poorly programmed game, he did at least base rewards on effort.

New development team, you need to go back to the drawing board on your rewarding system.

EDIT: Here is how I would have done it:

This is all you had to do to make a good dungeon.

-Make it once a day.

-No timer

-Make conditions to get through the dungeon harder.

-No speed runs.

-Make it so bosses are friendly to all classes, not make ridiculous AoE conditions and then other jobs are left to the side. If speed runs and that didn't exist, I don't think stacking would be used as commonly. Make it so the well geared and experienced players are able to take them down, not Joe Blow wearing a bathing suit.

-Abolish the 5 chest system, have everything drop from Chimera/Mizer himself. Make it so 1 piece of Darklight is guaranteed. Can have it so there is a 10% chance that a body piece drops in place of a non-body Darklight piece.


If you do it this way, the game feels less repetitive and if the difficulty is high and fair enough, you won't just see anyone with Darklight on. Yet, we deal with what we have now, but just letting you know, it is a complete failure and all it has done is rile up your community. You told us you believe the drop rate is fair. Well my 2 months worth of dungeon crawling for almost nothing says otherwise.

Lockouts do provide increased difficulty, learning to take down a ground king in FFXI was very tricky for the smaller shells simply because you had little opportunity to practice. Being able to spam garuda 35+ times in less then 12 hours and get the world first kill is very impressive. I wonder how long it would take to kill Garuda if we had a 24hour lockout with a guaranteed single drop that is loot tradable per kill. If you want to really make the game more casual friendly on the highest lvl's its not helping to allow players to spam an instance 100+ times in a single day, a moderate lockout helps allow the players with less time a much higher proportionate chance at the drops they want.

Garuda / ifrit / AV / CC etc all are easy because of no lockouts and the ability to spam and memorize+optimize every single minute detail of each instance. Their was a need to spam new content when it was new in 1.18~ 1.21 because their was not enough to do. Now their is plenty to keep us all busy we need lockouts and higher drop rates.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tango

Garuda / ifrit / AV / CC etc all are easy because of no lockouts and the ability to spam and memorize+optimize every single minute detail of each instance. Their was a need to spam new content when it was new in 1.18~ 1.21 because their was not enough to do. Now their is plenty to keep us all busy we need lockouts and higher drop rates.

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Good point Tango.

I think this is the first patch (1.21) where Yoshida-san and the team effectively "dragged out" content that couldn't be "finished" before the next patch hit (1.22):

* The majority of the player population do not have full sets of Darklight Gear (and still don't in 1.22), all thanks to the abysmal Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rate situation.

Dzemael was finished by most before the next patch hit. Then even Ifrit had many grinding (mindlessly) but getting most of the weapons (or the ones they care about) (although sadly, there are still many players who don't have the one weapon they really want yet). Moogle was the same way.

But now with Aurum Vale & Cutter's Cry, and Hamlet Defense's RNG, and Garuda (for the Non-Burn Players), as you said, many players now have lots of stuff to do.

But IMHO, it came with a price: The Random Number Generator method is just too punitive and not fun when it's about spamming the same content hundreds of times, over and over.

It's burning people out and I really hope they change this soon.

There are many ways to improve the system instead of using this outdated method.

Sadly, I think they want to keep it this low, so that this Time Sink will drag on and keep players STILL busy until 1.23 hits. :( But I think it may backfire.

It seems we have two differant situations at hand.

Situation1: Low drop rate but spamable dungeon.
Situation2: High drop rate but cooldown.

Most of us know Situation 2 was the system in FFXI. A great game that was successful for many many years.

When looking at situation 1 you can see right away that the ability to pick up the game and grab a party for Endgame at anytime you want is more focused for Casual players. Which is what SE wanted with FFXIV.

When looking at Situation 2 you see that it would have to be more of a planned scheduled event that has to take presence over RL if you want to atend the event. Not for the Casual players.

It looks like Situation 1 is what FFXIV is going to be...

The only thing you can hope for is that SE decides to add Both situations in the game to cater for all kinds of players.

SE has more than two options imo.

1. They can leave the droprates as low, and add a "points system" which rewards you for every win. Currencies, company points, etc which could then be traded for items. Like the system they implemented for Garuda, which gives you in advance the possibility to know how much time and effort you will have to invest, and rewards you depending to it.

2. They can make lock-outs and increase the droprates. I'm not sure about lock-outs at this state of the game, since even if i do feel SE has done well in adding content the past two patches, it may not really be enough yet to really have 2-3 days lock-out on dungeons or so.

3. SE can chose to make the content build on eachother, slowing down progression and increasing droprates, meaning : you need to farm an item you get in X to deblock Y, where you can farm an item to get to Z. This honestly is my favorite option, since it actually gives a reason to redo certain already obsolete content, and slows down the progression without blocking ppl out of it for days.

4. They can leave it as it is and add a 10 points achievement for getting 100M out of coffers in dungeons.

The argument about FFXIV being more casual player oriented isn't really something I can confirm. Like already stated before, this system rewards luck, nothing else. And it's not because you're a casual player, that you are automatically lucky. As from my experience in our LS, the players who have IRL responsibilities need to organise their time and make choices on what they chose to do IG, and most of them don't see a reason to spam content X times and hope to be lucky.

Either way, like most ppl posted already, I really hope they chose to change this spam/low droprate system. It's not fun, not for the 24/7 players who can already do the speedruns with their eyes closed, nor for the casual players who just like all, need to trust their luck and not their efforts and skill to get loot.

I look at Darklight gear as being hardcore content.

You have to draw a line somewhere between hardcore and casual content, or you'll end up pissing everyone off.

Make Darklight too easy to obtain = hardcores whining that there's nothing to do.
Make Artifact armor too difficult = casuals quitting because they can't make progress.

I think the game is set up fine as is. If Darklight was any easier to obtain, hardcores wouldn't be able to epeen with it. (personally, I think the heavy darklight body looks ridiculous btw)

I think things will settle down a bit after 2.0 is underway and we have more content being developed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LuciBlack

It seems we have two differant situations at hand.

Situation1: Low drop rate but spamable dungeon.
Situation2: High drop rate but cooldown. <--- (should be more like moderate drop rate)

Most of us know Situation 2 was the system in FFXI. A great game that was successful for many many years.

When looking at situation 1 you can see right away that the ability to pick up the game and grab a party for Endgame at anytime you want is more focused for Casual players. Which is what SE wanted with FFXIV.

When looking at Situation 2 you see that it would have to be more of a planned scheduled event that has to take presence over RL if you want to atend the event. Not for the Casual players.

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It's not that cut and dry, there are other factors to consider.

Situation 1:
Some casual players may get lucky and get a piece or 2 in short order. The large majority of players however will need hundreds of runs under their belt to obtain one. For hardcore players this causes them to get exhausted from over playing the dungeon, and for casual players it will cause loss of interest when it becomes apparent how many months it will likely take them to run the dungeon the hundreds of times it will likely take for them to get a drop. If the hardcore players are frustrated w/ having to run through these hundreds of times, how must the casual player who gets in 1/4 or less of the playtime feel?

Situation 2:
Cooldowns will encourage people to spread out what they do while in game which will help keep the content fresh. it won't hurt the casual players who only get on a few times a week because they really won't have to worry about the cooldowns, or those that can only play for a couple hours a day because when they do, they will always have something they can go do. Creating PUGs won't be any harder than it is now, you will lose the few hardcore players that aren't burnt out yet, and a few casuals that are on cool down for whatever you are shouting for, but you gain the casual players who would normally not respond in situation #1 because they already ran that dungeon a a few times this week, and they feel like doing something else now. Since the casual player can/will only be on for a limited amount of time each week, the increased chances at a drop will encourage them to join more parties while they are on, and they may find people that have the same schedule and build informal-statics. People in hardcore shells will be more likely to stick together too, but since they won't be as burnt out on the game, they'll be more likely to join PUGs for things their ls/group doesn't run on a regular schedule.

Situation 2 is better for both player-types, it helps create community, and it extends content without draining the fun from the game.

Hey everyone,

We understand that the topic of drop rates and needing to challenge specific content repeatedly is a major discussion within the community. Moving forward, our plan is to introduce a wide variety of content and means of obtaining rewards (drops, gear, items, etc.) rather than relying solely on the style of rewards from content like primal battles and instanced raids. As always, your feedback and comments will be invaluable on the march to 2.0 and beyond, so we want you all to keep sharing your thoughts with us.

Thanks Okipuit. Im assuming this future content is slated for 2.0? When will we get a better idea of these reward mechanisms. I know a lot of us are really curious how 2.0 will reward us, and if its similar to how it is now I really cant see 2.0 succeeding. I think this sort of info would be really good to put out there (when the rest of the 2.0 info comes out).

I'm going to have to agree with the OP. In other MMO's, I would see someone with one of the 'best' pieces of gear and think, "Wow, they are either talented/dedicated for getting this item." Does anyone remember in FFXI when people would literally 'buy' gear off of talented linkshells that no longer needed them? They'd sit in the zone where the NM would pop and PAY the linkshell to invite them and 'pass' the item to them. Most dedicated players looked down on these people.

Today, it REALLY is about luck. Even people who spam these dungeons can't say much about what they've earned. I remember seeing a thread by someone whose LS ran CC several times a day, doing a speed run each time, for weeks... and they had next to NOTHING to show for it.

My first time doing Moogle, I was given a sword, something I would never use (I'm a mage at heart). The gladiator wanted it really bad, and had been trying for it for a LONG time, but I could not pass to him... =/

I wish the content was a bit more challenging or had a cooldown. I am all for helping linkshell members out. Making the weapons passable to other people is a step in the right direction. Of course, with the whole spammable BLM burn method, many people now have 7/7 Garuda weapons and seeing people with them isn't a rare sight. I don't get that "Oh wow, they must be a great player" feeling that I get when I see people with rare items in XI.

I agree with the OP. I think it's safe to say that if the terribad drop rate isn't fixed, at the very least, by 2.0, that folks will just quite en masse, and new players will give this MMO a miss. Which I think would be sad, since it could be really amazing.

Dev team, please realize that players are people, too. And that they are paying money to enjoy your game. If it's not fun (and, as OP states, terribad drop rate is not fun), then people just aren't going to play your game. Which means they won't pay money for your game. Which means no money, and no game. You're lucky there are so many of us who care so much, and believe so much, that we keep pleading with you on topics like this. It's in your best interest to make this game as awesome as it can be, not just ours. Let's work together toward that dream, please.

Sol, I like you. You are my friend and I respect you, but I have to disagree with you on one thing. I think this post was written too close after Hamlet was released and you are or were under the impression that seals are a low drop rate. This is far from the case. Although the hamlets do get old after a while, you can go in with different types of set ups and achieve enough points for a gold chest. Which yields a viable seal drop rate.

However, this then goes to your main point that I find to be a good one. The fact that it's another spammable system. I am not a developer so I don't know how difficult or easy it is to create an innovative loot system, but is a spammable RNG loot system easier to develop than other options? I wonder if this is just taking the route that is easier to manage rather than being mindful about other factors. One major one that I can think of is allowing the content to last. Other games had large cool downs timers on their content and held higher drop rates that still looks to be the same progression to what we have in spam content. The difference is that in which you've pointed out that we get burnt out on these things pretty quickly.

This is something that really needs to change in the future. You can't keep people online and prolong player's interests with spammable content. Of course, we can think back to prior games we've played and remember getting sick of content that held those systems that had long cool down timers, but we still took part in them because the burn wasn't as severe. We can expand on that and suggest old content to be updated once in a while to keep it interesting. Change the objectives or have them randomized from the beginning. There is so much potential and this filler content for FFXIV pre 2.0 falls flat.

I cannot blame anyone for holding any amount of skepticism in FFXIV's future based on what is being developed in the present. What we can hope for, if there is any hope in you yet, is that this is only temporary and this is the way it is because it's the easy way to get this filler content out in a timely fashion.

I would like them to add a content that Relates to 2.0 Plans-- Not spam able content that won't relate to 2.0

If they plan on doing something like this on 2.0 I'am out- so having stuff similar to 2.0 would be great.
I hope that they don't add stuff similar to these content by 2.0

although I do understand that they are working on 2.0.... I hope that this current game isnt the future of 2.0 like what you said

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hey everyone,

We understand that the topic of drop rates and needing to challenge specific content repeatedly is a major discussion within the community. Moving forward, our plan is to introduce a wide variety of content and means of obtaining rewards (drops, gear, items, etc.) rather than relying solely on the style of rewards from content like primal battles and instanced raids. As always, your feedback and comments will be invaluable on the march to 2.0 and beyond, so we want you all to keep sharing your thoughts with us.

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does that mean -------> It means they're going to add a lot of thigns to do so people don't feel they need to spam one dungeon until their eyes bleed?

I rarely post in the forms but I do need to add to this one. I cannot stand these 15 minute wait periods after clearing an instance. The LS spends hours standing around doing nothing every night waiting for that stupid timer. It really makes you lose interest in the game. Where is the enjoyment/excitement in playing for 20 minutes then standing for 15....