Old content has become so easy that it is no longer fun

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

The game its so easy that you don't even need farm or think about getting some gear.

-Zones are empty with nothing to see or discover besides quests that are already located on the map
-Enemies don't drop anything valuable and they are annoying to the point that you dont want to even kill anything just run away.
-Same dungeon design since 10 years go ; corridor - > mob -> corridor -> mob -> boss repeat.
-No more hard dungeons, there is nothing else to do in a dungeon after finishing for first time.
-Mounts are useless outside of Frontlines/Diadem etc. SE sells you tons of mounts via Moogle Shop but can't even use them on cities like Sharlayan/Crystarium etc.
-FC or guild system wasted completely, no clan wards, ladders etc, just a ghost chat because people gather on Discord channels.
-No legendary weapons/armors etc outside of Relic (which SE always makes sure to make them the most annoying/boring way so 80% of the player base just wait 2 months until nerfs) can't get anything fancy unless you are <The Legend>
-No skill build
-No stats build
-Not an unique or fancy enchant system.
-Limited Armoury chest besides including more and more items every patch.
-Character creator still the same than ARR, hair clipping even on premium items ( $$) , unfinished races can't wear hats (Viera etc)
-0 interactive open world, feels like a game from 2005, just walk/run to point A-B-C and return.
-Gathering system dull/boring/tedious, billions of rocks/plants etc but they still appearing as shiny objects after 3-4 expansions and tons of patches (1 decade )
-SE refuses to improve the base game and just add the same content (a bit of MSQ, 1 dungeon, 1 raid or 4 mini raid, raise and repeat)
-Economy- money (Thanks RMT) useless besides buying clothes for glam or items for the house you are never gonna get.

I could go all the night but meh.

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I disagree on a few points, but I absolutely agree on the open world. The fate system is a good step in the right direction to sending people back to the zones -- and I'm including the bicolor gems in that system -- but there's little reason to return to the open world a few weeks after launch. We're missing a full-on system (maybe systems) that are able to reuse the existing open world to populate it again.

Relic weapons sending us back out to do fates isn't it, gathering isn't it, and fates can't do it on their own. I want excuses to go back to Camp Bronze Lake or Amh Areng, and beastmen/fates/sidequests aren't really making me want to do that. It needs to be something that isn't one-off, as a quest or journal would be.

As a drk who got to see their favorite class go from cool hp draining monster to Dark "TBN" Knight I find this thread funny. SE wants to make easy content for everyone to the point of changing classes to make them easier for the average player. Are you that shocked that making classes easier wouldn't effect older content? They could change how gear scales but the underlying issue remains where each class has next to nothing to do in lower levels as far as their rotation goes and the content itself doesn't have a lot of brutal mechanics to deal with. That said, I still lol when I see Quarn pop and people unable to wrap their head over the fact the mob has to die on the platform and it's called final sting for a reason.

I personally didn't find the mechanics of ARR-HW dungeons all that engaging, and think now the options for new players would be cut to:

- Experience the dungeon as it is now; low hp mobs and quick completion.

or

- Make new players experience the ...exhilarating mechanics of Aurum Vale like *checks notes* eat fruit and *flips card* dodge aoe for longer than 2 minutes.

I support scaling difficulty of old content ON THE PROVISO that you can use your full suite of abilities, whether you by 70,80 or 90. Scale them and don't remove them from scaled down content.

It's disorienting and disengaging to feel gimped with stripped down rotation and lack of ability charges or synergies.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

- Make new players experience the ...exhilarating mechanics of Aurum Vale like *checks notes* eat fruit and *flips card* dodge aoe for longer than 2 minutes.

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Is that really a bad thing, though? I don't think Aurum Vale has ground-breaking mechanics, but how is remembering to eat a fruit in the boss or watch your step in a dungeon worse than face rolling through it? Especially if you're a new player. Imagine unlocking dungeon after dungeon and none of them leaving an impression on you because they each lack something that makes them at least a bit unique. Personally, I would find that a huge turn-off, but maybe it's because I never bought video-games with the intention of getting through it as quickly as possible, though - after all I'm a casual.

And even then, it's not like the dungeon would take you an hour and literally suck the soul out of you regardless.
Perhaps the dungeon design wasn't amazing, but acting like it's this dreaaadful thing that adds nothing to the experience is also a bit too much.

Let it be clear again that I don't believe that Aurum Vale was a masterpiece of dungeon design, but people remember it for a reason. Even nowadays, it is the dungeon that actually makes me speak with sprouts, I don't really see that as a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Nafreyu

I support scaling difficulty of old content ON THE PROVISO that you can use your full suite of abilities, whether you by 70,80 or 90. Scale them and don't remove them from scaled down content.

It's disorienting and disengaging to feel gimped with stripped down rotation and lack of ability charges or synergies.

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I understand your point, but I don't see them doing that. However, as I said, I do wish they would think about lower-level content more given that roulette is a huge content of the game, and it is... terrible, really, most of the time.
It's kind of a paradox because I can tell people that FFXIV is good, but I have to ask them to please, be strong till you're like level 70 or for some classes even 80/90, so the combat gets a tiny bit better and even so, you're still going to be doing low-level content for a long time if you want to level your classes or simply waste time in the game doing something combat-related that's not raiding.

The new player experience already looks quite terrible if you ask me, I can't even fathom to think how it'll be when we have more 2 or so expansions. If this was a game that you simply blasted through it and worked on your endgame gear doing content like other MMOs I wouldn't really care as much, but that's hardly the case - if you want to care about the things that this game is good at you have no choice but to pay attention to the story and, when you actually have something that is combat-related, things melt without you barely understanding what's happening. It's disappointing.

The funny thing about Aurum Vale was, that the rate of People who mindlessly zerg at everything without thinking and end up dying was so high, that they ended up giving the Coincounter visible Telegraphs to all his attacks, since most Dps (even ranged) as well as Healers always stood rather close to it when it was charging for the swing attack that oneshots everyone who isn't a tank popping a CD. And yes, ive seen multiple Perfect Legends die to this multiple times.

And what truly baffles me, is how People who already have the MSQ cleared and have multiple Jobs at max level, STILL consider themselves unironically as new Players.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

I may not have played the game prior to Stormblood, and I won't deny that old content is of course getting easier as jobs get more fleshed out and the stat squish certainly didn't seem to help. However, from my experience in WoW, where similar statements were being made regarding dungeons and raiding of old, it's mostly nostalgia and rose tinted goggles.

WoW classic proved and is still actively proving that there, old content isn't half as difficult as people remember it being and it was just them not being good at it. It's an educated guess to say the same applies to FF14.

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People still wipe on Deadmines, the equivalent to Sastasha here after 15 years. WoW Classic is more about taking your time and being careful.
There's no wallpulls, there's no "HEALER DPS!!11" People actually need to learn their job, manage MP, DPS need to use their utility, tanks make sure aggro is dead set
because it's spicy trying to recover or you wipe and have to trek allll the way back.

Deadmine is by no means hard, though. It's more of YOU have to take time to go through the dungeon (1 hr maybe?) and need patience.
To me, while long, is way more fun than blasting through crap from wall to wall with with just dancing and twirling bosses for 15 mins even at level 90 dungeons.
I like being able to use more skills than just 3 oGCD heals and 1 DPS button. :rolleyes:

Level 15 in a 2004 game dungeon is more engaging than a 2022 level 90 dungeon.
Like I said, I get this game caters to "Baby's first MMO" but it's so much from level 1-90
that this is is why I play the game less and less each expansion. It's just boring af man.

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Originally Posted by Alestorm

The thing is it's partly because we know the older content like the back of our hand so the challenge is long gone and the stat squish likely did it no favors since it's usually the low level content that get effected the most by these sorts of changes.

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Nah it's power creep entirely. I don't think the people who drop their ilvl to only get LotA/ST/WoD would be able to handle it if they actually had to deal with the mechanics involved in those raids. People can barely handle the one cerberus mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Averax

Nah it's power creep entirely. I don't think the people who drop their ilvl to only get LotA/ST/WoD would be able to handle it if they actually had to deal with the mechanics involved in those raids. People can barely handle the one cerberus mechanic.

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They only make their ilvl lower, because they assume the old raids are faster than the new ones (which isnt even true that much anymore), and they can easily afk or do stuff on another screen during it. The additional mechanics would mostly be more flair than difficulty even for people who don't know them.

Making a game more casual invites the masses, but it won't let them stay for very long, if even new players complain about the difficulty/repetiveness, idk... the issue is there are not many other good MMORPG.
It is kinda sad that the most popular MMORPG on the market are from 2004 (WoW) and 2013 (Oldschool Runescape & FF14). Even Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online and BlackDesertOnline are around 2012-14... It is definetly not a dead genre, because a lot of people still want to play this genre even after almost 10 years, but there seems to be barely competition in the development to replace them.
I bet the next FF MMO would already be in development otherwise, instead of making X addons for FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I've seen wipes in crystal tower raids as recently as last week.

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What's your point?

You having a bad group doesn't change that the boss still dies -literally- 300% faster than it used to.

Very impressive you got a group that bad btw. I haven't seen a wipe in crystal tower in years.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

And youre confused why content designed in one era is made easier when the jobs have evolved past that design?

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Literally no one is confused, you're missing the point of the thread. What's there to be confused of? It's freaking obvious *why* this happens. And it's on the devs for being so lazy to just let it happen without any tweaks to fix it.

I remember telling someone we used to have to get out of Gaius and Nero's damage floor mechanics and got called a liar.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I've seen wipes in crystal tower raids as recently as last week.

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We wiped in Circus Tower a week or so ago to Scylla, lazy red DPS being bad, not only with rotations, but barely anyone was putting their tethered orbs in the generators. So the AoE damage got too high and they had the nerve to say "healing was low".

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Originally Posted by Jybril

People still wipe on Deadmines, the equivalent to Sastasha here after 15 years. WoW Classic is more about taking your time and being careful.
There's no wallpulls, there's no "HEALER DPS!!11" People actually need to learn their job, manage MP, DPS need to use their utility, tanks make sure aggro is dead set
because it's spicy trying to recover or you wipe and have to trek allll the way back.

Deadmine is by no means hard, though. It's more of YOU have to take time to go through the dungeon (1 hr maybe?) and need patience.
To me, while long, is way more fun than blasting through crap from wall to wall with with just dancing and twirling bosses for 15 mins even at level 90 dungeons.
I like being able to use more skills than just 3 oGCD heals and 1 DPS button. :rolleyes:

Level 15 in a 2004 game dungeon is more engaging than a 2022 level 90 dungeon.
Like I said, I get this game caters to "Baby's first MMO" but it's so much from level 1-90
that this is is why I play the game less and less each expansion. It's just boring af man.

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People wiped in deadlines mostly cause adds can run away close to death. Neat mechanic

When Mikepreachwow did the Hades fight his group had to stop dps:ing so that he could see the mechanics and experience the fight because the boss was dying so fast lol.

There definitely is a problem with this and it's kinda sad when I watch streamers not even getting to experience the actual fight.
Like things just die so fast even in some Alliance Raids too that the mechanics don't even happen.

Welcome to WoW in Wrath expansion....where blue items of the expansion were beating epic/purple items only 5 level higher. Such is game inflation, old content is going to be easy due to a few factors.....to be fair, gear is a huge factor in FF. Ultimately, you can just wear shit armor and have it. Usually people who feel OP are running through young sprout content with crazy epic/maxed out gear deluding themselves.

Yeah I'm just gonna say, based on my own experiences since EW, that I'm curious what alternate reality the posters in this thread live in where everything has suddenly become much easier since 6.0. Because other than one or so mechanics that no longer one shot, nothing has fundamentally changed with older content. Item level scaling hasn't changed at all, any differences you're noticing is due to potency alterations on certain abilities. But some potencies have been nerfed too. I've been doing a lot of instances with sprouts and wiping in some that I never wiped in before, seeing phases I've never seen before because the dps is so low or the bosses health so high. I legitimately, honest to god, do not know what you guys are talking about. You are legitimately living in an alternate reality. Nothing has majorly changed other than potency nerfs/buffs having various barely tangible effects on certain instances depending on the job makeup of your parties. Downscaling and item level scaling prevents people from overscaling any instance, it's literally impossible for us to be getting too strong based on item levels because the way the content is designed. Only thing that can change is potency/ability changes.

Only way I can see the stories in this thread making any shred of sense is if most of you are running every single instanced content with a static even dungeons, with the exact same job makeups each time (before and after 6.0), and you're playing jobs that all received buffs since EW. Like I'm all for harder content, and agree a lot of it is too easy to the point of deflating story moments like Thordan, but you guys are just straight up speaking disinfo here, you are saying things that are factually false. Reading this thread after some of the duty experiences I've been having lately is just irritating me. Where is this super-nerfed old content because I'm not seeing any difference before or after 6.0.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Yeah I'm just gonna say, based on my own experiences since EW, that I'm curious what alternate reality the posters in this thread live in where everything has suddenly become much easier since 6.0. Because other than one or so mechanics that no longer one shot, nothing has fundamentally changed with older content. Item level scaling hasn't changed at all, any differences you're noticing is due to potency alterations on certain abilities. But some potencies have been nerfed too. I've been doing a lot of instances with sprouts and wiping in some that I never wiped in before, seeing phases I've never seen before because the dps is so low or the bosses health so high. I legitimately, honest to god, do not know what you guys are talking about. You are legitimately living in an alternate reality. Nothing has majorly changed other than potency nerfs/buffs having various barely tangible effects on certain instances depending on the job makeup of your parties. Downscaling and item level scaling prevents people from overscaling any instance, it's literally impossible for us to be getting too strong based on item levels because the way the content is designed. Only thing that can change is potency/ability changes.

Only way I can see the stories in this thread making any shred of sense is if most of you are running every single instanced content with a static even dungeons, with the exact same job makeups each time (before and after 6.0), and you're playing jobs that all received buffs since EW. Like I'm all for harder content, and agree a lot of it is too easy to the point of deflating story moments like Thordan, but you guys are just straight up speaking disinfo here, you are saying things that are factually false. Reading this thread after some of the duty experiences I've been having lately is just irritating me. Where is this super-nerfed old content because I'm not seeing any difference before or after 6.0.

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You need to look at it from a larger timescale than just 5.0-6.0.

Ilvl might not be the answer, but potency and job changes certainly have killed the normal modes as time has gone on.

The issue isn’t that the game is easy — mom and dad are easy in the new expansion and slaughter sprouts left and right — it’s that too much of the game isn’t on the spectrum of difficulty until hundreds of hours in. Trivial.

Sastsha is harder than Ktisis and Ailitscope 87 and 89 dungeons, the newer ones dont fair much better and in most cases they are way more malnourished

There was one point where difficulty was just about right except for the end game, and that was around 2.5-3.2 days. Stormblood wasn't too bad and I still remember the third ivalice raid being pretty involved.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Ilvl might not be the answer, but potency and job changes certainly have killed the normal modes as time has gone on.

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It's possible that I might be misremembering things, but I remember MNK skills for example being around 140 potency and the like, now the same skills are around 300.
The potency is really the biggest problem, imo there should be a sort of '' reverse echo '' in certain synced content that debuffs us.

Especially since this is only going to get worse, the devs prefer to buff rather than nerf.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

lord give me patience

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This has nothing to do with 6.0 existing or "doing something" to content, power creep is an old, on-going issue that's only going to get more apparent. I'm not sure why other people's experience are "living in another reality" while yours is the crystal clear truth. Perhaps you're the one living in a completely different reality and clearly have more difficulties than the majority of players - which mind you isn't a problem, but doesn't really excuse the issue from the thread from existing.

Calling anyone that doesn't feel engaged by at least a huge chunk of the game which is 80- content a person that plays with statics is such a stretch.

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Originally Posted by Melorie

This has nothing to do with 6.0 existing or "doing something" to content, power creep is an old, on-going issue that's only going to get more apparent. I'm not sure why other people's experience are "living in another reality" while yours is the crystal clear truth. Perhaps you're the one living in a completely different reality and clearly have more difficulties than the majority of players - which mind you isn't a problem, but doesn't really excuse the issue from the thread from existing.

Calling anyone that doesn't feel engaged by at least a huge chunk of the game which is 80- content a person that plays with statics is such a stretch.

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The thread is about older content having become significantly easier recently. I'm saying that I honest-to-god haven't noticed much fundamentality different since 6.0. In fact, in some cases things seem a bit harder. But I attritube this partially to being grouped with more sprouts than I was late ShB, which makes sense as the expansion has attracted a wave of new players. Which just begs further questions from me as to the experiences of the people in this thread. I have noticed certain things like one-shot mechanics in Ivalice raids no longer one-shotting (which I think is extremely stupid and should be reverted) At the same time, lvl 50 dungeons still have one-shot mechanics, so it's strange. But even in a group of non-sprouts nothing really seems to have changed, what is faceroll content now was faceroll content in ShB, what is challenging content now was challenging content in ShB.

If we're talking about content progressively getting less and less challenging since the game's release, than I would not be able to comment because I have no experiences with the game pre-ShB. All I am saying is whatever you're complaining about has not suddenly gotten worse with EW. Whatever I'm facerolling today I was facerolling throughout ShB. Or maybe I've just misinterpreted this thread.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

The thread is about older content having become significantly easier recently. I'm saying that I honest-to-god haven't noticed much fundamentality different since 6.0. In fact, in some cases things seem a bit harder. But I attritube this partially to being grouped with more sprouts than I was late ShB, which makes sense as the expansion has attracted a wave of new players. Which just begs further questions from me as to the experiences of the people in this thread. I have noticed certain things like one-shot mechanics in Ivalice raids no longer one-shotting (which I think is extremely stupid and should be reverted) At the same time, lvl 50 dungeons still have one-shot mechanics, so it's strange. But even in a group of non-sprouts nothing really seems to have changed, what is faceroll content now was faceroll content in ShB, what is challenging content now was challenging content in ShB.

If we're talking about content progressively getting less and less challenging since the game's release, than I would not be able to comment because I have no experiences with the game pre-ShB. All I am saying is whatever you're complaining about has not suddenly gotten worse with EW. Whatever I'm facerolling today I was facerolling throughout ShB. Or maybe I've just misinterpreted this thread.

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It's been getting worse over time. Launch ARR content was easy to medium at release, and trivial now. Heavensward content was easy at release, trivial now. Stormblood content was easy at release, sliding to trivial now. Look at the first pull of Bardham's Mettle and the DOT bird. The Vault last boss and packs. Shinryu and Doma Castle. Have you ever failed the DPS check on demon wall in Amdapor Keep? I doubt it; it's been virtually impossible to fail for years. That boss ate parties at launch. Same with the stabby tonberries and the last boss in Wanderer's Palace. Speaking of the Wanderer's Palace, are you even aware the second boss has mechanics? Mechanics that would wipe parties?

Even some pulls in Endwalker are weakened compared to how they were under Shadowbringers-- off the top of my head some pulls of Holmninster Switch and the first pull of Dohn Mheg are noticeably easier than they were during Shadowbringers. They haven't fallen off the spectrum, but they're slipping. You certainly notice as a healer.

This problem compounds over time, so trivial encounters get more and more trivial until we're left with bosses that don't even get through half of their unique themes before they're dead. Praetorium is an extreme example of this, but the Sunken Temple of Qarn and Cutter's Cry might as well be deleted now. Brayflox Longstop used to eat unwary parties, but now it's just... mindless. Even if the dragon sits in the poison. You fail the mechanic of the fight and you still pass; do you see what I'm getting at? Have you ever had the luxury of enjoying a [hard] primal in ARR beyond the pretty sparkles?

I'm not wanting things to be made "hardcore." I'm simply wanting an enjoyable experience no matter what dungeon I end up in, and the current state of level sync either puts me in something easy (current expansion) or no longer worth my engagement.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

See title. Lack of ilvl syncing and general power creep and tuning adjustments with expansions have rendered pretty much all content pre-Stormblood into a joke, and even Stormblood and Shadowbringers content has suffered a fair bit. I had hoped the stat squish might address this somewhat, but it's just as bad if not worse.

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The stat squish has fixed a lot of it actually. I actually see mechanics in alex raids now and they actually matter, which for many years they didn't. I no longer have to feel awful at the skipped mechanics in A6 and A8 because they don't get skipped.

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Dungeon packs die in 10 seconds and the bosses don't fare much better. Trial fights which are supposed to be epic story moments get deleted before you even get to see half their mechanics or hear half their music.

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Level 50/60/70 dungeon packs have always died this fast. Most leveling dungeon mobs still take ages to kill because of how they sync.

I'm inclined to look at this from my perspective of gaming experience with XI. During 75 cap, you were basically expected to do certain things a lot, and they weren't always faceroll easy on top of manpower management nightmares. As time went on, the drain was certainly real when/if you managed to get all you wanted out of a particular piece of content. Linkshells had a bad habit of trying to guilt trip people who also finished said content goals and possibly even kicked those who didn't keep coming for unreasonably long periods, nevermind personality clashes between members that could disincline helping progression. These weren't what I called good times, and if I found myself in a situation where I could solo something or do it with a smaller group of friends, it was vastly preferential than being enslaved by grind for the sake of it.

All of this reminds me of something I feel somewhat of a core RPG staple that gets lost when chasing a very specific difficulty, forcing level syncs, and other systems that strip players of power earned. What is the point of EXP and levels? What is the point of gear? When you take those things away "just because" it calls into question why they're even really needed to begin with. Overall, I find XIV's approach to perhaps be the most egalitarian acknowledgment of this reality by giving minimum ilvl and unsync options for those on the poles of the spectrum. The in-between of basic PUG DF encounters is otherwise remembering that, yeah, veteran players have better stuff. They earned a quicker run. The alternative is newbies never finding help because not many are going to want every encounter to basically be a savage learning party when it's 1-7 others who don't know what's up. And heaven forbid if you hadn't been in an area for a while and forgot things, too.

Are there deeper nuances like class rebalances, squishes, and such? Sure. Yet, I'm also inclined to say there's some exaggeration going on about how "easy" some things are. But similar to how SE eventually uncapped Chains of Promathia content in XI, allowing the ease of older content was essentially considered acceptable. The overall benefit of forcing new players to bang their head against the wall for dead-to-current-players content was not seen as a requirement for the delivery of related story content. Rather, catching up could be seen more as the priority. Not that I'd really say XI was good at that outside of the Abyssea era. Still, you couldn't expect everyone to have to run Dynamis for a year just for their shot at a coveted item as the community also began its decline due to the aforementioned attrition I inferred above paired with a shrinking population as more competition arose.


Do I think rolling Orbonne in your roulette instead of CT should reward a lot more? Absolutely. I'd even say the max ilvl should actually be raised a bit to chip at that temptation to bail (or ilvl cheese to avoid it entirely). Do I want the open world to be more rewarding as an alternative to EXP grinding? Most definitely. I'm also one of those people that believes MMO dungeons should actually take more of a Diablo-like approach with map randomization and mixing up enemy compositions and placement to encourage full clears while curbing the whole blind wall-to-wall mentality. DD/HoH is a pale imitation of what a truly robust system could be. Regardless, what I want and what is aren't in alignment, and how we got to where things are I can understand from the perspective of both a veteran MMOer and actually caring about the more casual player(s), not to be confused with skill-less players. We can even see part of that with Yoshi-P's "we're okay if you take a break from the game" philosophy. Being a hardcore, punishing MMO isn't on the table. Even being more midcore is iffy in the long-term. My own dislike of dungeon spamming certainly won't change if we just make them 25-to-whatever percent harder, but at this point, we're also beginning to dive deeper into why MMOs have grown stale as a genre.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

You need to look at it from a larger timescale than just 5.0-6.0.

Ilvl might not be the answer, but potency and job changes certainly have killed the normal modes as time has gone on.

The issue isn’t that the game is easy — mom and dad are easy in the new expansion and slaughter sprouts left and right — it’s that too much of the game isn’t on the spectrum of difficulty until hundreds of hours in. Trivial.

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You need to understand something........nobody wants to do hard content in a pug. Not that mindnumbing, literally-impossible-to-fail content is the right answer, but there's a sweet spot in the middle, wherein it's not extremely hard for a group of strangers but you still need to stay awake and follow the mechanics alongside performing your job correctly. Even the absolute easiest content (ignoring things that have been giga-nerfed like Cape Westwind, Castrum, Prae, and Thordan) still requires you to be awake and do the mechanics at the very least. Which, when having to deal with coordinating with a group full of strangers, that I find is often high enough level of engagement for me. If I want to be really challenged I'll either seek out people doing extremes or savages via PF with min item level/no echo.....or play a single player game, better yet.

However, you are complaining about max-item level normal mode content being too easy. Not, content overall being too easy, but, the content literally designed to be easy. I dont know if you boosted, but there are extremes you can run, min ilevel no-echo starting from lvl 50. I enjoy doing them every now and then in party finder. So "there is no real challenge until hundreds of hours in" is just false. There are people in this thread saying they're quitting the game because the easiest-by-design content, at max item level, is too easy.

Like you're complaining because normal mode content at max item level isnt hard. Of course it isnt. Why would you think it would be. Not that I'm disagreeing even normal mode content could be more challenging, but you can only make it so hard before it becomes unpuggable, and I think they've already achieved about the best they can do for most of the content. Any easier and it'd be truly faceroll, any harder and it'd undoable with pugs. If you want an actual challenge it already exists from 50 and up, if you are willing to seek out likeminded players and use the tools available ingame to make it a challenge.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

You need to understand something........nobody wants to do hard content in a pug. Not that mindnumbing, literally-impossible-to-fail content is the right answer, but there's a sweet spot in the middle, wherein it's not extremely hard for a group of strangers but you still need to stay awake and follow the mechanics alongside performing your job correctly.

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You need to understand that this is what most people are asking for here, though? Content is already mostly designed to be this way, but again, power creep and lack of attention to how sync works is destroying this sweet spot. The discussion is about that. You might not able to see it as a huge deal since you aren't aware of how pre-SHB era worked, so seeing these changes to content is not as noticeable given that there's little context for you to compare, but almost no one here asked for things to be harder or to need a group for making dungeons, they simply asked for them to not be trivial. Are you truly reading the thread? Because you're simply repeating arguments that were already explained.

If you're fine with how things are nowadays, great, play the game and enjoy it. But do not pretend that people are asking for things to be harder to the extent you're talking about because there's very little to do with it.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

No matter how much more difficult you try to make it, you're not going to make Brayflox's Longstop HM any more enjoyable after you've run it 500 times.

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So just because you're bound to have repetition, with time, every old dungeon can simply be stripped out of the things that characterize them? What happens when the biggest chunk of your options for roulettes is like that? No one is trying to bring some sort of fresh spark for old dungeons, simply asking for them to not be completely trivial which is gradually happening.

No matter how much more difficult you try to make it, you're not going to make Brayflox's Longstop HM any more enjoyable after you've run it 500 times.

Try it min ilvl in PF

Normal mode content really doesn't matter, and the average 14er is incapable of anything mildly difficult. The stat squish has made Ivalice and Nier 24 mans nightmares and slogs that are way too long. Somehow Orbonne is worse and slower now than when it wad new. I also fear getting Alex raids, as most players are not great and have a poor grasp of mechanics. Old content is fine being nerfed for the average playerskill.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Try it min ilvl in PF

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With stat squish min ilvl became useless for ARR and HW content and does little for SB as well.

Had Sephirot EX min lvl synced with 6 sprouts recently. Boss transitioned without doing second stack mech and last phase was so quick we had like extra 3 mins spare before enrage with people eating damage downs from Yesad.

Thus if you came to the game recently all the challenge is gone from old content and you will never be able to experience it properly.

The thing about Dungeons and older Content being so easy, is because of multiple factors adding to the whole issue.

1. The way how Jobs are designed.
Not only are Jobs designed in a rather Black and White kind of fashion (most of your Abilities are just Combos that do raw damage, enhance damage or mitigate damage, its all about damage. There is way too less focus on sideffects, STATUS EFFECTS of which Final Fantasy normally is known for to have a good number of them, you get the idea), there is also smaller factors like the passive inside/outside HP regen which every Job has which is extremely potent. It is so powerful, it can almost keep up with a 10k dmg DoT tick over time (tested in the lv89 Dungeon on the Poison puddles, run it with trusts and see for yourself if you care enough). While the latter can be seen as a minor issue, keep in mind that this is just taking yet another thing of which Healers are normally for in the first place and i dont think i need to remind anyone here on how satisfied Healers are with their Role Experience.

2. The Enviroment.
the large majority of Enemies, are way too simple designed and have overall, way weaker statistics than theyre suppoest to have for their level Range. I wouldnt even call the Bosses in FFXIV actual Bosses, theyre just regular Enemies with alot of HP and up to a handful of "Skills which are very often, just small and slow telegraphs. But Anhra, what would YOU consider a proper "Boss" in FFXIV? Id say, A or S Rank mark of current expansion is a good "template" for a Boss design in this Game. That "difficulty curve" my example has, is what i think would be a fair Choice. A Boss should be easy enough to be grasped, but hard enough to keep you on your Toes. As for regular Enemies, i think it would be only fair that after a certain point of the Game, by the time you see another example of the same kind, it shows signs of being faster to use its skills or stops using to show telegraphs (for example, Bees. The Bees you encounter at La Noscea at first, have a rather long windup time to use Final Sting, which is a good introduction to the Skill they use, but by the time you reach, for example, Neverreap where you also encounter them, they will use that Skill more frequently and quicker as well).

3. Dungeons and 24 People Raids.
Should be on min ilvl when you queue for them by default, as well as on Daily Roulette. Just like you always start a MSQ Duty on "normal" at first, and then when you fail, get the choice to select easy or even easier Mode, the same should apply to this kind of Content. IF you want to play the thing on Easy Mode, you should queue for it via PF or with Friends. That way, the Powercreep of future Expansions wont be much of a issue for older Dungeons and Raids, since People will always experience them the way they were meant to be.

part 1/2

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Sorry about the Double Post

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4. 8 People Raids.
The fact that this Content is being used as a point of reference for the entire Gameplay enviroment of this Game, is from my point of View, the Main Reason why we have these kind of powercreep issues in the first Place, mainly because their improvement comes at the cost of the neglectance of the rest. While it is nice to have engaging Savage Content for this type of Raiding, i think it is unfair that there is no Difficult versions for 24 Man Raids or Dungeons, just because the former is easier for the Devs to design since it is at the end of the day "just" a Single Enemy in a Square or Circle shaped Room.


Before anyone points fingers at me and says that those points are "aganist casual Players", No they are not. First of all, the average Casual Gamer, is by default someone who invests 1 Hour Daily into a Game. HOW he performs has absolutely nothing to do with someone being a casual or hardcore Player, those terms, are all about time commitment.
There will always be People who are better or worse than others, even moreso for the latter when the Game encourages very lax Gameplay elements. Keeping People always on their toes, but without making them jump is what keeps People aware enough, to overall perform better, simply for knowing that the possibility of Failure, is closer to their Backs than they realise. And Failure in itself, is NOT a bad thing, as long as it isnt created artificially.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

However, you are complaining about max-item level normal mode content being too easy. Not, content overall being too easy, but, the content literally designed to be easy.

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If you say "content literally designed to be easy" I would disagree, the content was harder (or less trivial) at the time it was released for which it was designed, even if you max ilvl'd it after a week or so. And a lot of fights you really can fail every mechanic and still get through rather easily, especially if not the whole group does the same mistake, it is extremly forgiveable.

We managed to clear fights back then with pugs, why would it be an issue now with a similar difficulty? Anyway, it is okay to fail a dungeon, which almost never happens anymore, there is no learning curve needed anymore. Even a healer or tank missing from a dungeon or not using tankstance doesn't mean you cant progress it. The most fun way to do a dungeon is probably to go as 4man premade without a healer nowadays and still do big pulls.

Even if you say "use min ilvl no echo" it barely makes a difference anymore, even minimum ilvl is now much easier than back then, there were just too many combat changes that buffed us over the years and gave us a bigger toolset with crossskills accessible for everyone. If you would do T7 savage minimum ilvl now, it would be significantly easier compared to ARR times.

The Shadowbringers->Endwalker change recently might not be as noticeable, but the stat adjustment varies a lot around level, they just made sure towards lvl80 it is the same. It seems to be slower for 60-70. While sub 50 might be faster.

I would just encourage an addition to roulette system for players that want to play dungeon in a less trivial way. Atm there is no incentive to do minilvl unless you are going for orchestrion scrolls lol..
If you could get a higher daily exp from a slightly harder tuned version of the roulette, I think many people would prefer it, and people who want things to stay casual can still queue for the same as now.

Its the nature of the beast with mmos. Old content just gets eaiser with time and changes to the game. Note: CoT bosses were nerfed and had various mechanics disabled. So you can dps them slower then snot you wont see the missing mechanics.

Old content is easier because it's old, I don't think the devs want people being walled at the Steps of Faith (again).

On the other hand Behemoth King, Amon, and Leviathan still level entire raids to this day if people don't stay alert.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

Old content is easier because it's old, I don't think the devs want people being walled at the Steps of Faith (again).

On the other hand Behemoth King, Amon, and Leviathan still level entire raids to this day if people don't stay alert.

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The sad part about Steps of Faith is that it wasn't that hard. It required a small amount of party coordination and that was it. But nope, can't have that! It was actually a pretty neat fight when the party ran like a well built machine. The zerg fest it became is a shame.

I'm confused about this. I was told when I started to never do EX or Savage fights before the current patch because they were irrelevant and too hard for people to want to run again. But, now people are saying that actually all of those are too easy and need to be much harder.
or is this just the standard elitism stuff of "it was harder when I played it and now it means nothing"?

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

I'm confused about this. I was told when I started to never do EX or Savage fights before the current patch because they were irrelevant and too hard for people to want to run again. But, now people are saying that actually all of those are too easy and need to be much harder.
or is this just the standard elitism stuff of "it was harder when I played it and now it means nothing"?

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You're confused because people are not even talking about ex or savage.

kinda agree on this, ever since stat squish it seem the lower level dungeon is dead easy now

everything below shb endgame dungeon is so easy