Yoshi-P Statement on Player Feedback

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Originally Posted by Nokuushi

The only problem I have with this, is that community is screaming into a void. We don't know if Dev's are even reading any of this. And please don't tell me ''Yes they do'' since there is 0 proof. Blood Weapon and Heat Blast are proofs they don't. If we could, at least get small ''checkmark'' that Dev seen this or that post, it would be way better. But so far communication with dev's in this game is really bad, this is why so many people get mad since they're providing feedback for X for years, yet nothing changes, so now they're just mad and insult the dev's.

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From the roughly a year I’ve been here they seem to react to feedback, it’s obvious in patches. But they don’t come on here and talk, which really sucks. I’d love to see more interaction.

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Originally Posted by Nokuushi

The only problem I have with this, is that community is screaming into a void. We don't know if Dev's are even reading any of this. And please don't tell me ''Yes they do'' since there is 0 proof. Blood Weapon and Heat Blast are proofs they don't. If we could, at least get small ''checkmark'' that Dev seen this or that post, it would be way better. But so far communication with dev's in this game is really bad, this is why so many people get mad since they're providing feedback for X for years, yet nothing changes, so now they're just mad and insult the dev's.

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The Devs aren't going to post here in these forums, they don't post to the JP forums either, so it's no different here. What we have in these forums is moderators and GM techs. The Dev team will always put their comments on the front page of the Lodestone if there is updates or things that are news worthy.
Also there is 0 proof that they don't read these forums, so that comment goes both ways.

People seem to go on assumptions a lot in these forums. Others just want attention whether it's positive or negative, they just need to feed their appetite for attention doesn't matter which kind.
There are those that post their genuine thoughts on certain aspects of the game without being rude, but then there are those that just refuse to act like adults falling to the ground in a full on tantrum. They don't care what they say or how they say it. The "me me me" syndrome runs rampant.
And you think there should be communication from the Devs in these forums? It would get nowhere. Many don't know how to respect each other and still give criticism. Some don't know how to receive criticism. Others come on here just to have a rant fest, troll or post their daily bait threads disguised as criticism. You can hardly expect a dev to communicate here in such a mess, can you?

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Originally Posted by MintnHoney

Frankly, this.
All of these posts saying "well, if everyone else were just better, then Yoshi-P and the devs would like us more" seem to be made without the awareness that there has been a severe lack of engagement on these forums for a long time, and much of the continuous trolling, bashing, and the aggravated posts are due to a lack of engagement and moderation on the team's part (as well as a lack of a clear place to provide grievances/feedback). Not that I don't think some people are particularly sensitive, or that it would solve everything, but I guarantee that people would generally be more polite on these particular forums if they at least believed these particular forums were being looked at and interacted with.

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Agreed, the more people feel ignored the more likely they are to lash out. It gets worse when Jobs have longstanding issues that go unaddressed for years and the frustration just builds and builds. Take DRK for example, people have been complaining about Living Dead since the launch of Heavensward over six years ago, still no response and all feedback ignored. Over two years of people commenting on Blood Weapon and how it doesn't work well with DRK's AoE Spells and how ping dependent it is, Yoshi-P said his team has received zero feedback on the issue during the Media Tour and no changes have been made to the ability. MCH's Heat Blast is in the same boat with the ping issues. It feels like the SE employees who read the forums don't exist, and there's never any acknowledgement that they're reading and passing along our feedback. How often does the dev team create threads saying "hey, put your feedback here"? How often does the dev team put out blog posts on The Lodestone talking about Job issues that the community is raising? Basically never. At best we'll occasionally get Yoshi-P giving a small interview where he says "yes we read all feedback" but it's hard to believe that at times. It's genuinely frustrating feeling ignored, but that's where I'm at, as are a lot of other people, and I wish the devs were more active in communicating with the player base on the forums or through the developer's blog.

Square Enix shouldn’t feel compelled to take everyone’s feedback into account. Forums and other third-party sites have taught me that the FFXIV community is filled with just as much vitriol as WoW and other games. I don’t blame Square Enix devs from turning their backs on some players, especially since there’s little reward in listening to them. They’re going to be angry no matter what. A wise company would focus on delivering a good and consistent product that pleases the common majority and let the raiding community sort itself out regarding the nitpicks.

Besides, class balance is self-resolving anyway. Players love using FFlogs, and “non-meta” classes like PLD, SMN and DNC are being kicked from party finders. There’s no need for Square Enix to do anything and incur more wrath upon themselves when the players seem to have things under control. If I was a staffer, I’d focus on staying safe and doing as the company expects rather than feed the trolls.

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Originally Posted by Sacred-Oblivion

FFXIV has gotten better with every expansion and that trend continued with EndWalker. Who are these whiners who say otherwise?

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The ones who can't play 'cause they're stuck in queue. :p

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

The ones who can't play 'cause they're stuck in queue. :p

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sleep is for the weak!

What I got from it is that it isn’t that there are problems and people giving feedback, it’s the way in which people give feedback.

If you scream abuse in a shop to someone behind the counter, you’ll be asked leave, maybe forcibly removed, maybe even trespassed. Here they seem to be more relaxed with it, and instead let the customer abuse them. Personally I think they need to get tougher on the jerks, the Andy’s.

It’d be cool if they had CMS who could reply to the constructive posts though, just to let us know they are listening.

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Originally Posted by Juun

Retail only made me realize how terrible people really are.

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factual, retail has just instilled a great dislike for people in general. there was a very direct correlation between my sudden anger problems and the beginning of my retail job.

but still, doesn't take much more than basic empathy to understand that even if you're upset about something in the game, you should still phrase your criticism of it in a polite, respectful manner. the devs aren't out to personally attack you and your family, they're just people trying to do their job and don't deserve to be verbally abused over every issue in the game.

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Originally Posted by AlyaNimfa

If you scream abuse in a shop to someone behind the counter, you’ll be asked leave, maybe forcibly removed, maybe even trespassed. Here they seem to be more relaxed with it, and instead let the customer abuse them. Personally I think they need to get tougher on the jerks, the Andy’s.

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From my time on the forum here, the better analogy is a crazy customer is screaming in the shop and other customers have to send letters through the bottom of the backdoor hoping one of the employees sees it and has time to escort the crazy customer outside.

Ngl thats what I usually do with crazy customers too, while they are raging, I just go get a drink and bathroom break while I tell them Im resolving their issue, just to come back empty handed and nothing I can do.

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Originally Posted by Hanaya

factual, retail has just instilled a great dislike for people in general. there was a very direct correlation between my sudden anger problems and the beginning of my retail job.

but still, doesn't take much more than basic empathy to understand that even if you're upset about something in the game, you should still phrase your criticism of it in a polite, respectful manner. the devs aren't out to personally attack you and your family, they're just people trying to do their job and don't deserve to be verbally abused over every issue in the game.

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Not saying you shouldnt be nice, just saying you wont learn humility like that other person said and you'll learn to hate people more.

But yes I agree, at least pretend to be nice cause you wont get anything done if you are going to throw tantrums.

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Originally Posted by Sacred-Oblivion

FFXIV has gotten better with every expansion and that trend continued with EndWalker. Who are these whiners who say otherwise?

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Didn't read the whole thread, but had to respond to this gem. First, such a claim is highly subjective.

Second, from what I can tell the overwhelming majority of the community disagrees with you simply on the basis that ARR and HW were loved but Stormblood was widely considered to be the worst expansion the game has has. The next one really kicked some tail and is one of the best MMO expansions ever possibly.

Now, we come to Endwalker: Personally I think that Endwalker is the worst expansion the game has had and I think time will show that as people stop having buyers remorse and look objectively at it. The development team skimped on the basics, reusing gear sets for most of the gear we got with the expansion. The dungeons are all extremely linear, boring slogs. And the story has massive pacing issues that are undeniable. Subjectively, I also feel like the story content is the worst I've seen in an MMO. Yes, seriously. This entire expansion's story can be chalked up to being a bunch of short stories, jammed together into one long "tale" by someone who was having psychedelic fever dreams while they were writing.

Killing a god early on? Check. Running errands for people while the world around you is burning? Check. Finding out that the moon is actually a spaceship? Check. Said spaceship is filled with intelligent bunny people who are pointlessly obsessed with everything that is stereotypical of rabbits like carrots? ...sigh...check. Mass Effect style space craft is suddenly available with a technology that doesn't even remotely match anything else in Eorzea, leaving one to wonder just how the hell they crafted this thing? Yup.

I've never been less interested or frustrated with a story in an mmo like I am with this one.

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Originally Posted by AlyaNimfa

From the roughly a year I’ve been here they seem to react to feedback, it’s obvious in patches. But they don’t come on here and talk, which really sucks. I’d love to see more interaction.

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It's understandable that some bilinguals or polyglots are a little scared to talk in a professional capacity in a non-native language until they are quite fluent. While they can listen, and answer simply, they don't have enough nuance to be able to speak freely.

Can you imagine how the English community would howl if a Japanese speaking dev mistakenly mixed up his words and promised one thing, then he meant something else? That mistake would be in some people's signatures for a decade, taunting the original words with untold butthurt. (and yes, there are a few of these "I will never forget what you promised in 2015" signatures in this forum.)

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'll confess, I'm not sure why you're quoting me when my point was a general statement and not directed at anyone in particular - or why there's an attempt to frame an acknowledgement of nuance as some grave sin or reasonable point. Furthermore, please do feel free to show me where I excused abuse given that I specifically stated in my post that the terms of service should be adhered to.

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I guess we see very different amounts of nuance in this argument then. To me it's very cut and dry that it's fine to have a negative opinion as long as it's expressed in non-toxic ways that don't demean or dehumanize. I can't think of a single scenario where I'd be like "Well ackshually...maybe in this scenario it's ok to be a toxic a-hole when giving my feedback.". So I see very little to no nuance in this discussion, and I'm genuinely curious what nuance you see that would ever make it acceptable or beneficial to be a toxic a-hole when giving feedback. This is why I think the tone policing argument holds no weight here. Assuming you also can't conceive of an acceptable scenario to be a toxic a-hole when giving feedback, then it's perfectly reasonable to police out toxic a-hole behavior and bringing it up as some form of nuance is just silly when we all agree it needs to happen.

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

Didn't read the whole thread, but had to respond to this gem. First, such a claim is highly subjective.

Second, from what I can tell the overwhelming majority of the community disagrees with you simply on the basis that ARR and HW were loved but Stormblood was widely considered to be the worst expansion the game has has. The next one really kicked some tail and is one of the best MMO expansions ever possibly.

This is a opinion show me the actual poll that is relavent saying this is a fact

Now, we come to Endwalker: Personally I think that Endwalker is the worst expansion the game has had and I think time will show that as people stop having buyers remorse and look objectively at it. The development team skimped on the basics, reusing gear sets for most of the gear we got with the expansion. The dungeons are all extremely linear, boring slogs. And the story has massive pacing issues that are undeniable. Subjectively, I also feel like the story content is the worst I've seen in an MMO. Yes, seriously.

This entire expansion's story can be chalked up to being a bunch of short stories, jammed together into one long "tale" by someone who was having psychedelic fever dreams while they were writing.

This is not a criticism of the game but a insult directed at the writers of the story is it necessary to be insulting, we get it you didn't like the story.

Killing a god early on? Check. Running errands for people while the world around you is burning? Check. Finding out that the moon is actually a spaceship? Check. Said spaceship is filled with intelligent bunny people who are pointlessly obsessed with everything that is stereotypical of rabbits like carrots? ...sigh...check. Mass Effect style space craft is suddenly available with a technology that doesn't even remotely match anything else in Eorzea, leaving one to wonder just how the hell they crafted this thing? Yup.

I've never been less interested or frustrated with a story in an mmo like I am with this one.

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I just want to say that you should read the whole thread, you are going on half the information and forming a opinion with out the whole picture. The comments I bolded is exactly why Yoshida asked people not to be insulting. From the very first sentence we got your point and you took it into a long explanation only to throw a jab at the writers.

I guess I maybe wrong but honestly if I don't like a book or story I stop reading it. If I pick up a book and find the story lackluster after reading it I tend not to give the writer anymore money by not buying their books. Same can be said for a game that is story centric. I just feel like you should have read what this thread is about before commenting. To each their own I enjoyed the EW conclusion.

People just need to be decent human beings and express whatever issues they have in a matter that doesn't insult anyone. But that in itself is a hard ask cause people think emotionally and not with logic 90% of the time.

Doesn't help that some people are blissfully unaware of the effect their words have in situations like this. When someone puts their heart, soul, and several years into a project, only to be told by people that it sucks, and that person should never work on a project again, it's soul crushing.

I know this because I went through it. I was torn a new one by the crowd when I submitted my years long project, told I should probably give it up. So I did, not wanting to go through that again. At the time, the project was my pride and joy. Looking back on it logically, yes there were flaws in my project. If the reviewers criticized constructively instead of looking to break me, I'd have probably had a different reaction. But instead, any time I try to continue that work, I struggle, overthink about how to make it perfect, and end up giving up. I normally take insults in stride, but it's different when it's something you've poured yourself into for years.

We can also look at the WoW situation. I'm not saying the devs aren't at how fault for how it had been going downhill since BfA, but the community sucked the soul out of them, and the devs eventually turned adversarial towards their own community. Never did the community stop to think what their relentless attacks on the devs were doing. No matter what they submitted, it was wrong and sucked. After a certain amount of times being told that, it's not unlikely to either lose passion for the work, or give up entirely.

So yes, please do consider your words carefully. We do want the game to improve, but we don't want to suck the soul out of the devs to the point this game starts rolling downhill like WoW.

It doesn't help that some people seem to have a parasocial relationship with the game or the role/job they play.

In the end, every change, every design choice, is up to the devs. If they decided to go one way with an element of gameplay or a job, acting like they kicked your dog on the forums isn't going to change anything. At some point, you have to cut your losses or you're just wasting energy being so emotionnaly invested into something that won't change.

We have people here that have been complaining for years about certain things. Things that obviously the devs have no intention of changing or they'd have done it by now. At some point, I have to ask : what are you actually expecting?

Healers offered hundreds of pages of polite feedback for years. The gameplay is now 11111111111111111. If you want polite feedback, don't respond to persistent polite feedback with "nope, you're getting 11111111111111 and you're gonna like it or get out". You wouldn't accept that BS on YOUR main job, so miss me with that plea for genteel criticism. You guys don't play any classes other than DPS and it -shows-.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Healers offered hundreds of pages of polite feedback for years. The gameplay is now 11111111111111111. If you want polite feedback, don't respond to persistent polite feedback with "nope, you're getting 11111111111111 and you're gonna like it or get out". You wouldn't accept that BS on YOUR main job, so miss me with that plea for genteel criticism. You guys don't play any classes other than DPS and it -shows-.

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Do you think it's your right to be nasty to people you never met? Because your comment shows you have no idea how to give constructive feed back. The very minute you start insulting you have lost. That's reality, people will shut down anything you have to say after you insult them. So all you are doing at that point is being obnoxious.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

Do you think it's your right to be nasty to people you never met? Because your comment shows you have no idea how to give constructive feed back. The very minute you start insulting you have lost. That's reality, people will shut down anything you have to say after you insult them. So all you are doing at that point is being obnoxious.

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That's not what I said. What I said was, don't tell me you want polite feedback, then proceed to ignore polite feedback for the better part of a decade, then bemoan the fact that some of the feedback isn't polite.

11111111111111 is bad game design.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

That's not what I said. What I said was, don't tell me you want polite feedback, then proceed to ignore polite feedback for the better part of a decade, then bemoan the fact that some of the feedback isn't polite.

11111111111111 is bad game design.

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Did you ever think the feedback given is not appropriate or doable. Just because a person gives feedback doesn't mean the devs have to act on it.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

That's not what I said. What I said was, don't tell me you want polite feedback, then proceed to ignore polite feedback for the better part of a decade, then bemoan the fact that some of the feedback isn't polite.

11111111111111 is bad game design.

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Yeah?
If someone tell you in your face right now that your performance suck in rudely manner.
What is your first reaction?
Are you still going to say this is a "feedback"?
Please stop hi-jack the concept of feedback and replace with outburst of negative emotion.
That is now how you making feedback.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Healers offered hundreds of pages of polite feedback for years. The gameplay is now 11111111111111111. If you want polite feedback, don't respond to persistent polite feedback with "nope, you're getting 11111111111111 and you're gonna like it or get out". You wouldn't accept that BS on YOUR main job, so miss me with that plea for genteel criticism. You guys don't play any classes other than DPS and it -shows-.

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You aren't in the wrong for bemoaning healer design. But you lash out at players who think differently, and aren't above calling developers incompetent.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

Did you ever think the feedback given is not appropriate or doable. Just because a person gives feedback doesn't mean the devs have to act on it.

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If making kits beyond pressing 1 is not appropriate or doable, then there is something deeply wrong with the class design and the philosophy.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

You aren't in the wrong for bemoaning healer design. But you lash out at players who think differently, and aren't above calling developers incompetent.

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I don't think they are incompetent but I do believe they have gotten lazy.

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Originally Posted by Y2K21

If making kits beyond pressing 1 is not appropriate or doable, then there is something deeply wrong with the class design and the philosophy.

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I don't disagree with your being upset about it at all. What I do disagree with is the name calling or like the post below calling them lazy when that poster has no idea what they are implying by using that insult. I think people don't know the difference between constructive criticism, giving good feedback and insulting people. So what has this person who calls a developer lazy just accomplished? Did they make a suggest? Did the offer a solution? No they just insulted the whole developer team.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

I don't disagree with your being upset about it at all. What I do disagree with is the name calling or like the post below calling them lazy when that poster has no idea what they are implying by using that insult. I think people don't know the difference between constructive criticism, giving good feedback and insulting people. So what has this person who calls a developer lazy just accomplished? Did they make a suggest? Did the offer a solution? No they just insulted the whole developer team.

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I call it what it is. When they add less content per patch, and less content per expansion it is lazy. You can defend it or call it an insult but its a hard truth.

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Originally Posted by hobostew

I feel this is gonna be taken out of context by certain people and push out any feedback that is deemed negative in an awkward attempt to protect the devs feelings which can lead to problems in the long term.

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They'll just keep the echo chamber / group think alive while polishing their white knight armor.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I call it what it is. When they add less content per patch, and less content per expansion it is lazy. You can defend it or call it an insult but its a hard truth.

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I'll bet you it most likely isn't due to the devs being lazy, but rather business decisions that the SE oversight made to cut funding, thus lowering the amount of man-power/time available to work on said content that was left on the cutting room floor. 9/10 that is the case, where people want to be able to do something, but the budget given to them for the project(s) is limited so they have to decide what to cut to still give the best experience.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I call it what it is. When they add less content per patch, and less content per expansion it is lazy. You can defend it or call it an insult but its a hard truth.

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No that's not the hard truth. Unless you're going to tell us you are literally sitting in the same room as the devs. No you just threw a baseless insult cause you FEEL like they are being lazy. IT's not a fact. Unless you got papers and videos showing the devs are going

Dev " HAHAAHAAAA Our plan is working on killing content because we hate work! Aint that right Dev 2.
Dev 2 " Hell yeah bro! If we keep this up the raccoons will be able to continue our work and the boss won't even notice.

Both laugh into the darkness.-

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Originally Posted by Gameovers

No that's not the hard truth. Unless you're going to tell us you are literally sitting in the same room as the devs. No you just threw a baseless insult cause you FEEL like they are being lazy. IT's not a fact. Unless you got papers and videos showing the devs are going

Dev " HAHAAHAAAA Our plan is working on killing content because we hate work! Aint that right Dev 2.
Dev 2 " Hell yeah bro! If we keep this up the raccoons will be able to continue our work and the boss won't even notice.

Both laugh into the darkness.-

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You are probably one of the people that actually believe the devs play the game.

I do have to sympathize with game devs on this one, thankfully I work in a field where I don't have to interact with the final users, just with the client, but still...
Things are usually the way they are because:
1.) It cannot be made better/faster/cheaper without more money
2.) People like it that way
3.) Board wants it that way
4.) Nobody actually knows what is better, and status quo is safer than taking blind shots at the dark

this whole conversation is getting bloated. Bottom line, keep giving all the feedback. Just dont be a total dilbert about it.

As I play through EW (lv88 currently), I can't help but feel the Loporitt race represents the dev team of FFXIV.

That was likely already pointed out, but had to get it off of my own chest. I'll also add that I absolutely adore the Loporitts.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Healers offered hundreds of pages of polite feedback for years. The gameplay is now 11111111111111111. If you want polite feedback, don't respond to persistent polite feedback with "nope, you're getting 11111111111111 and you're gonna like it or get out". You wouldn't accept that BS on YOUR main job, so miss me with that plea for genteel criticism. You guys don't play any classes other than DPS and it -shows-.

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Play AST then I suppose? It's super busy right now I can barely keep up with all its systems and responsibilities.

And you're gonna have to be more constructive with your feedback. You can't just say "1111111111" over and over and expect something different. imo the devs have done everything they can to spice up the different healers while still keeping some of them simple (WHM).

Healers can't have dps rotations because the vast majority will just do their rotation and forget to heal. I imagine the devs have done a ton of testing with all kinds of different abilities and skill sets and the test player response/performance has led them to design healers the way they are today.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I don't think they are incompetent but I do believe they have gotten lazy.

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And this right here is what's being talked about. Not pointing out problems with the game itself, but insulting the devs behind it. And with such a ridiculous claim as 'lazy', completely discounting a variety of perfectly logical reasons why there is less content in your view.

-EW has waaay more cutscenes and story compared to previous expansion. You think they can just snap their finger and those magically appear on their pcs? No it takes manhours to create
-they had to shift to a work from home situation. This has all sorts of time loss for a group environment like the devs are in, like in setup, coordinating how they're going to communicate, etc not counting the fact that living in a small space with other people will almost certainly lead to some lost manhours due to real life
-related to the above, work from home doesnt have the same high end pc's to do the work on, therefore taking more manhours to complete the same task

And that's only things I can come up with off the top of my head. But no, it couldn't possibly be for any reason other than they're a bunch of super lazy slackers. Those same devs that spent how many hours of their own time adjusting some headwear for vierra because they didn't want to disappoint the players? Yup, clearly a case of just simple laziness, cold hard fact! /s (should be incredibly obvious, but just in case)

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

And besides a majority of feedback they listen to is either JP playerbase or raid data.

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Quite likely, and I haven't visited the JP side of the forums because I literally cannot read Japanese, it's due to how things are discussed. Rather than 500 threads about the exact thing putting it into 1 mega thread, that way they aren't having to try and find all 500 threads to see what the issues are(which, lets be honest here, are usually just vaguely veiled insults at the devs for the way things are without providing actual suggestions to improve, or reasons as to why something isn't liked).

Consolidated threads have been proven to get notice more often than not.

The thread about allowing opposite genders to wear certain gear? Yup, that ended up happening.

The Hempen Camise model being available for all races? Yup, that was at least responded to with a "we will look into it" type of response.

Other than being large threads in themselves, what do they have in common? Civil requests. Very few, if any, responses in those threads were overtly hostile like half the "feedback" threads.

Keep things civil, without any name calling(notice I snipped your comment to below a certain point?), and you get more attention from those able to make the changes/pass along the requests or feedback than when you thinly veil an insult at the people who initially made the stuff, based entirely on decisions by people much, much, higher up in the company than they are.

While I sympathize with Yoshi concerns and believe that people should not be insulting, I also see this too being taken out of context by a loud part of the community that can't handle a criticism unless you bring a paper convincing THEM that your concern and feedback is "valid". :rolleyes: If anything though, I'm curious to see what the hell is happening on the JP side to see this type of commentary.

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Originally Posted by Melorie

While I sympathize with Yoshi concerns and believe that people should not be insulting, I also see this too being taken out of context by a loud part of the community that can't handle a criticism unless you bring a paper convincing THEM that your concern and feedback is "valid". :rolleyes: If anything though, I'm curious to see what the hell is happening on the JP side to see this type of commentary.

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This thread already highlights a glaring issue that people are negligent enough of their own behaviour and actions that they cannot make the distinction between them presenting their criticism as just that - A criticism, and something reasonably inferred as thinly veiled insults which serve no purpose.

I suppose in this regard people reap what they sow.