The MSQ Endwalker Trial Bosses are WAY too hard for newer players to FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Jirah

When I think new players, I don’t think literally the tail end of the 4th expansion. Get a grip

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I don't understand why people willfully ignore this. You're not new at 60, let alone 89. You need to know things. You need to not be a waste of a teammate.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

It should be a walk in the park, something my grandma can clear.

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Why?

I mean there are people who have tried but never managed to clear Tomb Raider 1...

Why should games hand out an auto-win.

If you want that kind of gameplay, the mobile MMOs often have autoplay. Turn it on, and the game plays itself for you.

This game repeated trains us, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again...

On how to do the mechanics.

In the low levels it is absurdly easy. As you level up they add new mechanics at such a slow pace that we are often bleeding out players who feel the gameplay is too slow and too dull.

At some point it finally "gets fun" for those of us wanting more action, and the rest of people have been taught how to play repeatedly.... REPEATEDLY...

Like...

COME ON...

At what point...

I just...

COME ON...

They tell you over and over again how to do it, they walk you through, they hold your hand...

and if you still fail, they don't punish you, they just let you repeat right from that spot. And if it's a solo duty - they let you pick an 'Easy Mode'...

One of the trials as we leveled was even doable with trust NPCs, and you can just follow them and they will carry you...

So... come on.

90 levels of training...

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

I never said it was hard. I said it was about on par with Shiva extreme. Which is considered one of the easiest extremes.

I also don't get why everybody goes by the color. Why not go by the weapon buff on her bar? It's always visible.

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But it still doesn't negate the fact that the OP and many others are literally complaining for a "brain dead easy clear", and Trial #2 gives you just that, a brain dead easy clear, with the Trusts. It's the only trial in the game that does this. It cannot possibly be any easier.

1) Pick a scion that matches your role. Melee, physical, tank, healer, whatever.
2) Stick to them like glue
3) Win the trial

Difficulty of it is a moot point, because a trust version exists.

And guess what? That "easy clear" has consequences, because they refuse to pay attention during it and it doesn't prepare any of them for it popping up in duty finder, and then they tank the floor. Repeatedly. Over and over. Every. Time.

The first trial does have some spicy mechs. My first try took three times but we eventually got it. I in progressed into a run that was 15 minutes in on DNC the other day and we ended up having to abandon. So I think that one can be a little hit or miss. I do feel there's a lot of pressure on that one for the healer to have the mechs down. I haven't tried it as WHM yet since I wanted to get things down as a dps that could be left on the floor first. The star thing isn't too bad, but does take a minute to figure out mostly because we're conditioned to look *down* to avoid AoEs. This expansion has tripped that up a couple places where we have to look to the sky and that can be a bit non-intuitive.

The one part that trips me up still and annoys me is the rotating platform. I just do not have talent for that sort of visualization. Formulas are my strong suit in math. Geometry was not my friend.

I can see where some who just play for story might have some difficulty. It would be more of a giveaway but they could possibly have the lines for all the stars go down, so there is a visual indicator on each square. That seems to be the spot where I have seen things go pear-shaped the most often. It would be a small change and players would still have the make the connection, but it could ease the confusion a bit.

msq... endwalker? trial boss?... endwalker?

honestly if you play ff14 and has reach ENDWALKER, you shouldnt be a "new player" anymore by that time. unless during all that time you play until EW all you do is just whack stuff and ignoring mechanic then.... if these people "complain" too hard then its on them.

the game is already easy as it is (at least for the general content), what more you want? autoplay function like in all mobile games? its fine to give helping hand to people if they find it hard but, sometimes you have to ask yourself "is this hard? or is it them that not trying at all?"

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Originally Posted by ArkenaeuxBelmont

But it still doesn't negate the fact that the OP and many others are literally complaining for a "brain dead easy clear", and Trial #2 gives you just that, a brain dead easy clear, with the Trusts. It's the only trial in the game that does this. It cannot possibly be any easier.

1) Pick a scion that matches your role. Melee, physical, tank, healer, whatever.
2) Stick to them like glue
3) Win the trial

Difficulty of it is a moot point, because a trust version exists.

And guess what? That "easy clear" has consequences, because they refuse to pay attention during it and it doesn't prepare any of them for it popping up in duty finder, and then they tank the floor. Repeatedly. Over and over. Every. Time.

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Relying on trusts is what causes people to wipe so many times when it comes up in DF. Trusts are good to help you learn the fight but not good to rely entirely on them and not learn how the fight works. I agree. I had that experience tonight. The grouped wiped so many times, people left and had to refill. They kept dying to the weapons.

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Originally Posted by CrayonsAndPaint

Let me start off by saying the trials are easy for me, because I’m used to harder fights like those, but my friends who are new to the game, couldnt for the life of them understand what to do when doing the Zodiark trial. There’s honestly no need to make MSQ trial bosses that hard.

I just think it’s a bit extreme.

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No...no no no and no.

Come on, since ARR launch with EVERY xpac and update they Dev's have dumbed down the core gameplay mechanics until eventually they are PRACTICALLY handing you the MSQ on a silver platter.

We've gone from on extreme, a FF MMO with no Quest Markers, no Quest Logs, no AOE marker, to Tank Busters LITTERALLY having a GIANT RED ARROW atop your head with a RED CIRCLE around you.

They litterally TELL you how every mechanic works.

Have to run around the boss while he fires in a circle? Here are arrows pointing in the direction he'll spin.

Not sure if you should stack or skatter? We have Markers for that.

Are you confused by push back Mechanics...here's a marker for that.

With every Xpac we get a set of "new" mechanics and "old" Mechanics that you're hand held into so that if you've spent ANY length of time playing this game YOU will know them inside and out.

If you're friend is playing a level 83 trial, they've had to have gone through 8 years of content, Primals, Trials, MSQ dungeons to get there. No way is this fight "extreme" unless they Level Boosted their way there.

Can we NOT have this game dumbed down more than it already has been, PLEASE?!

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

The second trial normal mode is about on par in difficulty with Shiva extreme when it was new. Story mode fights have come a long way in difficulty since ARR.

Very similar too where you have to watch which weapons she switches to know which attack is coming.

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I think you're severely underrepresenting shiva EX. There's zero need to watch the weapon in the 89 trial since every attack is accompanied by a very visible telegraph.
The 89 trial has no forced tank swaps, no untelegraphed busters, no untelegraphed group soaks. Even the 2 person tank soak can easily be taken alone.

While I definitely am in the crowd of people who say they enjoy harder content I can see the argument for people who are just in it for the story not having a good time. And honestly I'd say the easiest solution is to not touch the fights but have a skip fight button after someone lost the fight for maybe a couple of tries.

This would let people who can't do it progress further and keep enjoying the game and the people who enjoy the fight can just keep doing it.

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Originally Posted by Miiu

While I definitely am in the crowd of people who say they enjoy harder content I can see the argument for people who are just in it for the story not having a good time. And honestly I'd say the easiest solution is to not touch the fights but have a skip fight button after someone lost the fight for maybe a couple of tries.

This would let people who can't do it progress further and keep enjoying the game and the people who enjoy the fight can just keep doing it.

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I'm all for that... as long as the "skip fight" button blocked joining party content beyond it until everything was cleared.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I'm all for that... as long as the "skip fight" button blocked joining party content beyond it until everything was cleared.

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Do you mean party content as in the extreme version of those trials? If so yeah I'd say so too. Though I doubt people who struggled with the basic version of the fight would willingly jump into the extreme version of it.

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

I fully expect 6.0 will be the last content I do, I'm done with raid-level mechanics in STORY content that gates all further progress in the STORY.

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I don't doubt people have trouble with the trials; I know friends who have had trouble with various dungeon bosses, and honestly I can remember how badly I struggled with some dungeon bosses back when I was far less experienced. And not everyone wants to spend a ton of time in game focused on improving those skills; the game is designed to be friendly to people who do the MSQ, then unsubscribe until the next MSQ chapter.

Not everyone is excited to do the same fight over and over multiple times per week, trying to get just a little bit further with each pull. And while normal trials obviously do not require that level of dedication, it's still a difference in approach to content which can be easy to forget for those of us who live to gleefully hurl ourselves into the industrial meat-grinder of high-end endgame content. ("Whee!" BzzzzrtkrnchSPLURT. "...rez please.")

Now, I do think these trials actually are a bit on the high side of perceived difficulty for normal-mode trials; I've played Dorito of Safety more than once for all three of the normal mode trials this expansion when they pop up in trial roulette, and I've definitely seen people struggling with them.

However, I don't think that's because the trials are actually difficult mechanically.

I'm going to repeat something which I've said before on here: this game is extremely good in higher-end content at making visually-flashy mechanics to hide a very simple solution to things.

It's the equivalent of a stage magician doing something with one hand to draw your attention so you don't notice how the trick actually works. And while the illusion holds, it can make the content feel very difficult. But if someone shows you how the trick works, the illusion is broken and you can see what's going on.

These aren't "raid-level" mechanics, I promise; they're much, much more forgiving. But they are similar inasmuch as they're extremely flashy, rather moreso than I think a lot of normal mode trials have been (with a few possible exceptions, like Hades in ShB). Sure, the mechanics differ very little from things we've seen before, but I feel like they are presented with a lot more ta-da! and theater to them than they often have been.

And while those of us who do extremes and savage are used to learning to look past the smoke and mirrors to find the meat of the mechanic—and so look at these fights and go "these really aren't that bad"—folks who generally do normal mode content frequently are not, and I suspect can easily get lost in the noise.

And I strongly suspect that difference may be at the root of the disagreement here.

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Originally Posted by Miiu

Do you mean party content as in the extreme version of those trials? If so yeah I'd say so too. Though I doubt people who struggled with the basic version of the fight would willingly jump into the extreme version of it.

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More than that, don't let these people in any Roulette.

I coulda sworn they make things with story content that doesn't involve gameplay.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Not in terms of healing output and needing to tank swap but in terms of awareness to know which attack is coming and the damage dealt to non tanks. She can kill non tanks very easy if you screw up. Shiva didn't even have a instant death wall. Just the freeze wall. Which was forgiving even if you screwed up the stand still part. If you get hit by any of her weapon attacks with 1 vul stack as a dps/healer, you're pretty much dead. If you stand in the wrong spot for her spear attack, she can kill you instantly even at 0 stacks.

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Have you actually done Shiva EX? While far from a visual spectacle in terms of mechanics, she can actually kill DPS fairly easily. Far more so than Hydaelyn normal mode where you can collect quite a number of vuln stacks and still live. Bow phase alone routinely killed a lot of players. They even brought her back with Unreal and PF was an absolute mess. I should know, I farmed her nearly every week before they cycled in Titan. All that aside, you can't dismiss outgoing tank or healer damage than claim a normal mode is harder than EX. Part of the challenge is dealing with just how much damage Shiva EX does to tanks. Meanwhile, Hydaelyn barely tickles them. The only part of her entire fight that can catch players off hard is how quickly the Lightwaves drain your HP. They're also quite easy to dodge.

There is no normal mode in the game that comes anywhere near Extreme fights. Just because you believe a fight harder than others doesn't mean it's suddenly an EX or Savage level encounter.

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Originally Posted by CrayonsAndPaint

Let me start off by saying the trials are easy for me, because I’m used to harder fights like those, but my friends who are new to the game, couldnt for the life of them understand what to do when doing the Zodiark trial. There’s honestly no need to make MSQ trial bosses that hard.

I just think it’s a bit extreme.

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Good joke! Best i heard today!

The trial fights in Endwalker aren't even particularly harder compared to some things that have come before.
The main thing is that it's new and people didn't know the mechanics, but after people give them a few tries and see all the mechanics they can start to pre-emptively act to avoid them rather than trying to react as they go off.

For example, I remember Shinryu being a huge roadblock for people at Stormblood's launch but after some time, even without nerfs or people getting overgeared or anything, it just became a lot easier as more people knew what to do.

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Originally Posted by CrayonsAndPaint

Let me start off by saying the trials are easy for me, because I’m used to harder fights like those, but my friends who are new to the game, couldnt for the life of them understand what to do when doing the Zodiark trial. There’s honestly no need to make MSQ trial bosses that hard.

I just think it’s a bit extreme.

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A friend of mine who is new really enjoyed the ramp up in difficulty and said the consistant slow increase made the game interesting.

None of the MSQ fights are hard (let's be honest). FFXIV works on a very core concept - "content repeats". The more you repeat a fight, the more you learn.

Not all content is supposed to be a one shot kill. You're supposed to struggle and die in game sometimes. It keeps things fresh.

Your brand new friends should not be expecting to just try a new game out and 1-shot everything all the time. Wiping is good. It forces you to learn.

If you don't want to figure things out, read a book or watch a movie?

Given the presence of certain individuals with way too many alt accounts that are used for questionable purposes, I make it a note to background check the TCs of topics like this on the Lodestone...and was not surprised by the result.

Speaking as someone who sucks and knows it (Getting older, reflexes aren't what they were):

I found these trials much easier than the ones in Shadowbringers.

Dark Inside? Astral Eclipse sucks, nothing else hard.

Mothercrystal? Nothing hard at all.

Final Day? Some tricky spots but still nothing compared to Dying Breath.

Cleared trial 1 on the first attempt. Found it to be fairly easy. Trial 2 the group kept wiping. I had the mechanics figured out but the other party members couldn't seem to do them properly so the instance timer ran out. Did the trial with a trust right after and cleared it without any issue because unlike the human players, they did the mechanics properly.

Third trial had a few wipes as well, which I was happy about. Final boss SHOULD have a difficulty after all. Party figured out the fight and we cleared.

It's Zodiark. THE big bad. The one we've been hearing about for years. It's not meant to be taken lightly.

I can't say I'm all that much of a fan of the trials past stormblood, mainly because they just stack on more and more crap going on. More mechanics with terrible telegraphs with layers of mechanics that if you fail one you die to the second. During the trials of endwalker, even though they were cleared, i felt like a waste of oxygen when i got out of them since i was dead way too much due to not knowing the mechanics beforehand on top of a single mistake meaning instant death. Normal trials/dungeons etc should not require a guide or multiple wipes to figure out, that's for the extremes.

If they continue to ramp the difficulty every expansion there will eventually be a point where people just call it quits because they don't feel they can pass a mandatory boss without a full premade on voice comms.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

There was certainly some progression in it for my party, but over time veteran players will get it in a roulette and help them through it........

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As if veteran players with brain will queue trial roulette if they know they can get zordiak with full newbies party...... (you can't dodge it with ilvl)

Its a true waste of time, really

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Originally Posted by Miiu

Do you mean party content as in the extreme version of those trials? If so yeah I'd say so too. Though I doubt people who struggled with the basic version of the fight would willingly jump into the extreme version of it.

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I’m saying if someone uses “skip fight” on sastasha, they will never participate in any msq dungeon past sastasha until they go back and clear sastasha and so on.

The first time I did Endsinger was a god damn nightmare. Had to of died like 10 times to it. Gave up next time got carried through it. It's the moons I can't keep up with a mechanic that keeps happening behind me. Maybe it's my ADHD, but I feel like increasing difficulty is fine, but you gotta know your audience. A group of all first timers is a damn meat grinder to content where shit is constantly happening with damn near no time to react to it. I personally hate shit like that, but you won't find me in savage. I just question why stuff has to be that unforgiving? I get it if it's ment to be challenging. But at that point I just wanted to see the story at the other end. I didn't care about feeling accomplished for beating this hard fight. And honestly I don't care. But it is what it is. The more people do it the easier it gets.

Then dont buy a skip and dont do all the stuff unsync is my general response for that.

Especially Zodiark and even more his EX version are way, by far too easy considering his importance...

I'm sure they'll get toned down eventually... But for now... If you're level 80-90 and still new then there's a huge problem.

Maybe... Maybe less people should use level skips and learn their jobs first?

Sages and Reapers I give a pass. People are still trying to figure them out fully. Summoner and Monk need re-learning too, I guess.

I thought the difficulty was largely fine. Did the second trial with Trust so no real comment there (except it was actually nice/funny to see the AIs troll each other and make mistakes. They definitely were NOT perfect).

The first trial took a few wipes to get, especially the starfall mechanic, but it all made sense after seeing the mechanics a few times. Plus it was largely the case where a few stronger players could carry the rest to victory if they were struggling.

The last trial also took a couple of wipes, mainly the planet collision mechanic. Again, though, not overly tough if you saw the mechanics a few times and the stronger players could help the weaker.

The important thing to me that differentiates these fights from harder content is that there really isn't anything that one player will do (or not do) that will outright kill the entire party (which is an issue I had with the QTE in Seat of Sacrifice). Story content shouldn't be without challenge but should encourage players to work together, while allowing stronger players to help the weaker players through.

Please don't give them a reason to make even normal trials completely braindead. Your friends should learn to deal with a little adversity and challenge. This game is not that difficult, and normal trials are forgiving enough that it shouldn't be rocket science. This game is very casual friendly (hello, I am a casual) and I don't think they need to dumb down normal trials just because other casuals happen to struggle a little bit.

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Originally Posted by Vahenir

I can't say I'm all that much of a fan of the trials past stormblood, mainly because they just stack on more and more crap going on. More mechanics with terrible telegraphs with layers of mechanics that if you fail one you die to the second. During the trials of endwalker, even though they were cleared, i felt like a waste of oxygen when i got out of them since i was dead way too much due to not knowing the mechanics beforehand on top of a single mistake meaning instant death. Normal trials/dungeons etc should not require a guide or multiple wipes to figure out, that's for the extremes.

If they continue to ramp the difficulty every expansion there will eventually be a point where people just call it quits because they don't feel they can pass a mandatory boss without a full premade on voice comms.

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And why not? Why should the normal modes be so easy they're all but impossible to fail? This is precisely why dungeons are treated like a complete joke and the community insists on speed running them. Not that they should be overly difficult, which they currently aren't, but if we're making them on the level of Thordan then just have the bosses toss you a coffer when you zone in.

I thought they were perfectly tuned.

Each of the 3 new trials had a couple wipes before figuring it out. As it should be.
Just hard enough to make you feel like you accomplished something important but not too hard that it was frustrating.
Now my groups, were average at best, but I could see if you got a below average group that it would appear extra challenging.

Ofcourse after gearing, and clearing the extreme versions, those normal trials feel ultra easy.

But I do believe adding maybe a reduced echo to MSQ trials could be a good thing for those sub par groups.
Maybe have it cap out at 5-10-15 or something.

The only thing that I personally found difficult was a certain mechanic in the first trial I couldn’t wrap my head around. I figured it out, but it just took a bit too long for that to happen admittedly. I think they had the right amount of challenge for story trials.

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

It's Zodiark. THE big bad. The one we've been hearing about for years. It's not meant to be taken lightly.

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Well no, it was basically only an incomplete husk as we already killed his heart, yet... for ex i wished some "he grabs his remaining frangments and becomes whole again" stuff...

As always, I'd recommend ignoring the "trials were super easy, if you didn't clear them first time you have no brain" comments. The trials had some tricky mechanics. If it took you a while to figure them out or you died a lot that's fine. A lot of frustration can often stem from people reading so often that content is "braindead", wondering why they die so easily and getting annoyed both at themselves and the game. It's normal to die. Ultimate raiders die in Normal content all the time.

However, a few wipes are fine too. It means your story trial takes half an hour, which is a drop compared to the whole time taken from 1-90. You feel you accomplished something (or not if you don't work that way) but either way you get it done fine and move on with the game.
The concept that everything in the story must be faceroll is player invented. It's a combat based MMO. The devs have made it accessible in that you have unlimited Raises, healer lb3's, no enrage timer, lots of mechanics that don't kill you if you mess them up, but they still intend fights to be a puzzle to figure out and to kill you many times as you do solve them. The WoL having struggles against god-like foes is literally part of story, immersion and game fantasy. You aren't meant to just glance at them and win.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

As always, I'd recommend ignoring the "trials were super easy, if you didn't clear them first time you have no brain" comments. The trials had some tricky mechanics. If it took you a while to figure them out or you died a lot that's fine. A lot of frustration can often stem from people reading so often that content is "braindead", wondering why they die so easily and getting annoyed both at themselves and the game. It's normal to die. Ultimate raiders die in Normal content all the time.

However, a few wipes are fine too. It means your story trial takes half an hour, which is a drop compared to the whole time taken from 1-90. You feel you accomplished something (or not if you don't work that way) but either way you get it done fine and move on with the game.
The concept that everything in the story must be faceroll is player invented. It's a combat based MMO. The devs have made it accessible in that you have unlimited Raises, healer lb3's, no enrage timer, lots of mechanics that don't kill you if you mess them up, but they still intend fights to be a puzzle to figure out and to kill you many times as you do solve them. The WoL having struggles against god-like foes is literally part of story, immersion and game fantasy. You aren't meant to just glance at them and win.

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Sure. I die in normal content all the time because of not getting healed, or healers trapped focused elsewhere/raising instead of keeping the party alive.

Wipes alone don't clearly explain the picture, you can have the best players and all it takes is a healer or tank loss and things can go chaotic real fast.

Please stop asking them to tone these trials / game in general/ dungeons down.

I was pleased to see some actual challenges for a change. Most of the content is a yawn-fest and boring as heck these days. Let the game toss a curve ball or two.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

More than that, don't let these people in any Roulette.

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Brief digression, but I actually don't think you should be able to get anything in roulette you haven't cleared, regardless of anything else in this thread. (I.e., anything that has the checkmark on it in Duty Finder.) To put this another way: if Player A has just unlocked the next story dungeon, I don't think leveling roulette should be able to give them that dungeon until they've queued into it directly and cleared it that way.

This is as much for the people queuing into things as anyone else. I know a friend who was waiting for their significant other to catch up in MSQ this expansion before going into the first dungeon; leveling roulette threw them in there anyway rather than letting them wait, much to their dismay. I can easily imagine someone unlocking the level 83 trial, going "I'll wait for my friend to be on since we were going to do this together", queuing into trial roulette for a quick run, and -- because of how many people were going through story -- hitting the level 83 trial in that roulette.

If want dutys harder or easier there should be a option like they have for solo duty fighting quests. Problem solved

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Originally Posted by technole

Sure. I die in normal content all the time because of not getting healed, or healers trapped focused elsewhere/raising instead of keeping the party alive.

Wipes alone don't clearly explain the picture, you can have the best players and all it takes is a healer or tank loss and things can go chaotic real fast.

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Truth.

I mean, I've been running the normal-mode raids repeatedly (because the queue pops quickly) as a way to work on honing my ability to play SGE efficiently at 90 prior to savage dropping. (My co-healer is interested in going AST instead of SCH this tier, so thus I swap from WHM to SGE.) I have thus done P2N many, many times; I've been in runs where we blasted through the fight in like 5 minutes, everyone went "tyfp" and we bounced.

I still had a run where I spent an hour in there the other day, because almost everyone else was new, and folks didn't know where to go, and people would die to the water DoT and so on. I and the other veteran offered explanations, and I eventually marked myself with the Safety Dorito to help illustrate what I meant, and we did get folks through, but it was rough.

We had no rezzers other than the healers, and my co-healer was one of the other first-timers; I often ended up in a scenario where I had to try to get folks back up, heal up those who are still alive (as one of my static would say, "Tend to the living!"), and do mechanics, and those were not three things I could do simultaneously. So we ended up in a war of attrition since I could only slow-rez people so many times without dying to mechanics myself. And it wasn't because folks were inherently bad, but they were all new to the fight and trying to learn it, and we had a party composition which did not lend itself well to recovering from mistakes.

Sometimes, you get a run that just be like that.