Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

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Originally Posted by battleshadow66

Which is ironic, because pre-EW SMN was the worst version of SMN in Final Fantasy history. lol

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It depends if the only thing you care about is aesthetics or actually care about gameplay design

And if we care about gameplay design, it was still also regarded as the worst Summoner in the entire Final Fantasy series. Convoluted designs and needless systems stacked on top of each other that eventually brought the devs to the point where they gave up on the class? Better to start with a completely clean slate than continue walking down a road that leads to nowhere.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And if we care about gameplay design, it was still also regarded as the worst Summoner in the entire Final Fantasy series. Convoluted designs and needless systems stacked on top of each other that eventually brought the devs to the point where they gave up on the class? Better to start with a completely clean slate than continue walking down a road that leads to nowhere.

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And a completely clean slate they did create, there's absolutely nothing there. I love ruin spam; so glad they made it the whole rotation.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

And a completely clean slate they did create, there's absolutely nothing there. I love ruin spam; so glad they made it the whole rotation.

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Not only that, but history with other jobs has shown they aren't great at building on a clean slate.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

This is my perspective and complaint as well. What hurts is it didn't even have to end up this way. You could have had this redesign yet pave it with call backs from the old job.

This image right here is how to create a good summoning mechanic: 3 Astral Calls and 3 Umbral Calls. Astral Aetherflow lets you call the three primals, bonus damage when done in the element flow sequence, then after all three it unlocks DWT/Bahamut. Umbral Aetherflow calls the three primals and it unlock FWT/Phoenix.

https://en.ff14housing.com/images/pi...21069_img2.jpg

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Like, I know this is BASICALLY masterful blitz but with magic but I really like this idea. It wouldn't add difficulty to the job, really, but it would at least somewhat break up the pressing the same exact buttons until boss is dead issue.

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

Thanks mobile formatting for deleting half my post instead of telling me it was too long instead of editing it down.

But the next part, your theming arguments you constantly make

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Aw, but you had such a good thing going. What a shame.

But yeah the only thing convoluted about pre-EW SMN was the opener (which basically amounted to "get your cds rolling" but there were a lot + the pet delay made it icky), after that it was simple resource management.

I am not sure how your language adds to your argument. Respectfully, please express yourself more appropriately. If your goal is to eventually see the gameplay and themes of old Summoner resurface in a future job, keep in mind that the people you need to convince are not likely to be swayed by your current tone.

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Originally Posted by battleshadow66

Which is ironic, because pre-EW SMN was the worst version of SMN in Final Fantasy history. lol

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You mean that YOU think it was the worst version. Personally I think that couldn't be further than the truth. They took summoner, and completely dumbed it down. Personally I wish game developers would just ignore people who complain that a class is too difficult heh. What do you get? Summoner 6.0

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I am not sure how your language adds to your argument. Respectfully, please express yourself more appropriately. If your goal is to eventually see the gameplay and themes of old Summoner resurface in a future job, keep in mind that the people you need to convince are not likely to be swayed by your current tone.

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And YOU'RE tone throughout all these past threads where you constantly belittle, berate, badger, and otherwise bug the former SMN mains who utterly despise the hackjob that is the current class does very little to convince people of your side, either. If you want respect then show respect in the first place, and you have constantly and repeatedly shown no respect for people who liked ShB SMN and other prior iterations, including myself on prior occasions. Thus I shall not show you that respect in turn, and in fact treat you the way you've treated others.

The fact of the matter is that a LOT of people hate new SMN, a lot. And your arguments do little other than tell them to sod off. As the points you do make fall apart rapidly. Let's take the theming one you constantly bring up, for one. Every job in FFXIV that has some ancestor in a previous FF title or spinoff, including old Summoner and even NEW Summoner, is a divergence from its ancestry, most of them major. Black Mage goes from spam your heaviest hitting spell and a weakness exploiter to a job that follows a chain of spells, completely abandoning those roots. White Mage goes from a elementalist healer who uses the elements that Black Mage doesn't alongside POWERFUL healing and POWERFUL buffs plus the ultimate spell of holy, to a Bishop (not a white mage, a bishop) who spams the same flashbang of a light spell over and over and over and does next to nothing with elemental magic AND has no buffs to boot. Red Mage goes from a king of adaptability and a master of support and filling in for other roles to a weaker black mage that knows a piddly cure spell, a rez, and a few simple support spells... completely abandoning its roots as a jack of all trades in favor of being just another offensive caster with a few shiny tools that pale in comparison to the incredible spell lists they had before. Astrologian goes from a master of buffing and buffing QUICKLY to being a mess of stars and special effects that doesn't even follow its own lore and has such paltry buffs that its one ancestor class would laugh it out of the room for being so weak. Bards go from support focused classes that were masters of buffs to being archers with a few piddly buffs that do jack shit on their own, and would also be laughed out of the room by their predecessors for how weak their buffs are. Scholar goes from a master of analysis and an item class to being a mishmash of tactics and war knowledge that has a fairy because Nym had to use everything at their disposal to keep themselves alive. Dark Knight goes from a hp-sacrificing DPS with excellent dark abilities to a pathetic tank that can't even follow its own lore and doesn't know what it wants to be anymore AND completely abandons its self-sacrifice roots. And so on and so forth, all down the roster with the SOLE exception of Dragoon.

I could go into much more detail than this on a class-by-class basis if you need me to spell it completely out for one so simple and hard-headed as yourself. But I think that's a basic enough start to show the holes in that constant argument of muh theming that you always insist on making.

I respect your enthusiasm and encourage you to direct it to the proper channels like a support thread for the gameplay style you want to see in the future rather than trying to change things back to the way they were. Right now current Summoner is the most popular caster on NA and EU, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Or better yet, why not create the following thread: "Revert the 6.0 SMN changes, show your support!" Once you get to roughly 1000 likes you might even be able to get a response in a letter like the Male Viera thread did.

I like 6.0 SMN.
Perhaps, I even love it.
It's a lot more flexible, I feel like I'm contributing more (and not just because I can rez in a pinch without my own rotation going AWOL), and when I make a mistake/die I'm not punished with a real bad time for the rest of the pull.

I started FF14 as a SMN and coming back to it in 6.0 is very sweet and I'm enjoying maining it again.

Welcome to the experience of most of the people that tried and then ultimately abandoned 5.X Summoner after realizing that there were better jobs to play as, and the experience I've had with the job with every expansion except this one. With 18 other options I'm sure you will find something you enjoy, as I did. I'll take a "simple" job that's true to its origins in the series as opposed to a "complex!" job that has fostered this sort of environment.

who asked?

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Welcome to the experience of most of the people that tried and then ultimately abandoned 5.X Summoner after realizing that there were better jobs to play as, and the experience I've had with the job with every expansion except this one. With 18 other options I'm sure you will find something you enjoy, as I did. I'll take a "simple" job that's true to its origins in the series as opposed to a "complex!" job that has fostered this sort of environment.

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"That most people abandoned" Thats funny, because I remember seeing a decent amount of summoners throughout 4.x AND 5.x The class has never been under-represented from the metrics I could find. And I won't be surprised when a bunch of the bandwagoners that have picked the class up suddenly drop it to go back to their respective classes after the honeymoon phase has ended.

Also I find it funny that as soon as the class gets changed you suddenly act like its your class and the rest of us, the people who enjoyed the class we used to have, should just leave. You should of found a different class to play in the first place. I mean, as you said, there are 18 of them.


"True to its origins" Just going to ignore my earlier post huh. Not surprised, you don't seem to have a leg to stand on when it comes to that.

I am sorry that you are unhappy with the 6.0 job changes. However I have yet to see a post on this thread break even 100 likes so where are all these fans of 5.X Summoner that do not seem to want to come in here to show their support? Perhaps you should consider spreading the word on twitter or reddit in order to help bolster your numbers.

Remember it's not me you have to get on your side but Yoship and the dev team themselves if you want that job back and to have new Summoner taken away from the multitudes of people who already fell in love with it.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I am sorry that you are unhappy with the 6.0 job changes. However I have yet to see a post on this thread break even 100 likes so where are all these fans of 5.X Summoner that do not seem to want to come in here to show their support? Perhaps you should consider spreading the word on twitter or reddit in order to help bolster your numbers.

Remember it's not me you have to get on your side but Yoship and the dev team themselves if you want that job back and to have new Summoner taken away from the multitudes of people who already fell in love with it.

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Because the likes on a single thread on the english forums are definitely the definitive way to gauge interest or enjoyment of a class or mechanic. I've been playing this game since 2015 and I RARELY use these forums because they are not very good to be quite honest. I would assume they are using other means to discuss this game, such as discord/reddit/twitter as I usually do. The only reason I posted here today was because Laphicet spoke the truth. Besides, its common knowledge that the devs only look at the Japanese side of the community.

And no. The blame for the changes the class suffered are solely because of people like you. People who have spent the last 5 years whinging on and on about how Summoner is "clunky" or "doesn't feel like a real summoner". People who, most likely, didn't even play the class in the first place. People who "would of played the class" but got upset that it didn't cater specifically to them. "I would of played Summoner, if it played completely differently to how it currently plays."

It's the same thing that happened to Monk. "I like the idea of monk, but I don't like how it plays, please remove positionals and cater directly to me!" I like the idea of Dragoon But I think its one of the most boring things in this game to play, for me. So, instead of raining on everyone elses parade, I played something else. Took me a over a year to finally settle down on a class. That class was Summoner. Thanks alot

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

If most of the abilities weren't a minute long CD, maybe it would feel better, but at the current moment, the job doesn't feel rewarding and devoid of dopamine hits. Maybe if you started with egis then work to bahamut, would feel good

Started off with bahamut pretty much instantly and then having your dps really tank, feels awful

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That's.... every job in the game? Every job has an opener that bursts hard and then evens out..?

Imo, the current SMN is heading towards a good groundwork, but just needs a couple more things to do in between - not too much, but just a bit more. I'd say this isn't the best rework, but the rework gave a solid base to add more stuff in between for future expansions and patches while making the SMN feel better at lower levels since the base gameplay is the same outside of a couple of oGCDs and animations at higher levels.

The rework made ARR SMN have a gauge, which IMO, was pretty neat. It wasn't complex by far, but none of the jobs were by lv 50 (though, the Ruin naming convention got overused here). Still, it provided a good groundwork to build up the class. The transition of having Aethercharge to become Dreadwyrm Trance is good as it became satisfying to use Aethercharge's upgraded form. There was a good amount of button consolidation to keep things simple rather than cluttered. Button consolidation is a good thing since it reduces button pressing for the sake of having things to press. It frees up room for more skills and abilities to interact with each other outside its core gameplay loop.

The Aethercharge letting you choose what summon to use within the timespan is a very good change - it provided some depth to optimization in the encounter based on your toolkit. We get a lot of mobility from instant casts, but it makes a lack of oGCDs more noticeable, especially when you're pressing the same button over and over again (Healer mains also understand this struggle, except they have it worse since there's no animation or stance changes).

I'd say this would be a great time to make Aetherflow upgrade into something more interactive to SMN's toolkit rather than just become a fester / painflare spam. There's room for kit interactivity by making Astral Flow do something else outside of Demi summons too. Even if there was a 3 primal attune limit, perhaps we could enchant aetherflow or gemstone with an elemental attunement instead to unleash their ability temporarily.

It's not impossible to have a primary attunement and then upgrade the aetherflow gauge to have a secondary attunement (Ravana, Bismark, Shiva, Alexander).
It's also not impossible to just add multiple abilities after consuming aetherflow to gain a buff & access primal abilities as individual oGCDs with a unique take on each primal.
Ex: Shiva does a conal AoE and restores MP. Alexander consumes MP and does some AoE damage, resets your Energy Drain + Radiant Aegis cooldown abilities (or gives 1 charge if Energy Drain becomes a charge mechanic). Ravana does multi hit attack but only in close range (staring at you, SMN gapcloser).

Heck, it's possible they plan on adding the most oldest of primals into our kit somehow after Endwalker expansion and let us borrow a portion of their abilities.
Simply put, there's lots of ways for the current SMN to evolve imo. What they have looks like a simple core giving a lot of freedom for the devs to expand outwards.

Actually SMN and RDM are two of the best designed dps jobs now in the game, no useless bloat, pretty visuals and strong class fantasy. If you want something overly cryptic to play to feel ‘rewarded’ for mastering it, then maybe try another genre or picking up martial arts in real life. Because I personally want to have fun and be entertained in a game like FF and not trying to figure out a 30 button rotation with 3 dot timers, 5 cool downs and a pet to micro manage.

Why do you think Square is not cracking down on addon users? Because they know most dps jobs are unplayable without them.

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

Why do you think Square is not cracking down on addon users? Because they know most dps jobs are unplayable without them.

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wat.

/10char

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

Actually SMN and RDM are two of the best designed dps jobs now in the game, no useless bloat, pretty visuals and strong class fantasy. If you want something overly cryptic to play to feel ‘rewarded’ for mastering it, then maybe try another genre or picking up martial arts in real life. Because I personally want to have fun and be entertained in a game like FF and not trying to figure out a 30 button rotation with 3 dot timers, 5 cool downs and a pet to micro manage.

Why do you think Square is not cracking down on addon users? Because they know most dps jobs are unplayable without them.

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The hell kind of whackjob take is this? I barely even touch SMN and even I can tell the job is as shallow as a kiddie pool. To call it bare bones would actually be an insult to bare bones. In fact, I'd even go so far to say it's as simple as DNC, if not even moreso.

It's one thing to not want to deal with a long and involved rotation while also having to maneuver around pet jank, it's another to have a job veer so far in the other direction that even the simplest of simpletons could excel in it. Especially when there were already plenty of simple jobs for people to choose from to begin with.

And if you genuinely think most of the dps jobs are unplayable without addons, then maybe the problem is you.

People need to really reel themselves in a take a second to think about the so-called loss of complexity between 5.0 and 6.0 Summoner. They have all the exact same skills under different names.
One of the main complaints I see is that SMN is nothing but a Ruin spam job now, but I ask you, what was Egi Assault except a different flavored Ruin? You spammed Assault, then Ruin IV, then fell back on Ruin III. The only difference now is the name: Rite and Catastrophe. The only real change now at lower levels is that the spell animation is the same, just with different cast times and potencies. I do believe they could have put more effort into that, but in the end, it would still be the same spell with a different color, just like 5.0.
Enkindle is now Summon and Summon II. Same spell, faster cast.
The only true loss to SMN is Tri-Disaster>Bane and in its place is Astral Flow. The only real problem with Astral Flow is that it comes way too late in the interaction with the three Primal Summons at level 86. If we were to get a lesser form of the 86 Astral Flow abilities at an earlier level, that would go a long way toward alleviating the tedium.
Overall, SMN lost nothing except the dots and some button bloat. All of the other skills are till there in some form.

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

People need to really reel themselves in a take a second to think about the so-called loss of complexity between 5.0 and 6.0 Summoner. They have all the exact same skills under different names.
One of the main complaints I see is that SMN is nothing but a Ruin spam job now, but I ask you, what was Egi Assault except a different flavored Ruin? You spammed Assault, then Ruin IV, then fell back on Ruin III. The only difference now is the name: Rite and Catastrophe. The only real change now at lower levels is that the spell animation is the same, just with different cast times and potencies. I do believe they could have put more effort into that, but in the end, it would still be the same spell with a different color, just like 5.0.
Enkindle is now Summon and Summon II. Same spell, faster cast.
The only true loss to SMN is Tri-Disaster>Bane and in its place is Astral Flow. The only real problem with Astral Flow is that it comes way too late in the interaction with the three Primal Summons at level 86. If we were to get a lesser form of the 86 Astral Flow abilities at an earlier level, that would go a long way toward alleviating the tedium.
Overall, SMN lost nothing except the dots and some button bloat. All of the other skills are till there in some form.

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Egi Assaults were flexible skills with charges that you could use for on demand mobility and to get Ruin IV charges which represented the build up to Bahamut, tying up together your filler phases with your burst.

You are right, though. Just same thing under a different name. Exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

Actually SMN and RDM are two of the best designed dps jobs now in the game, no useless bloat, pretty visuals and strong class fantasy. If you want something overly cryptic to play to feel ‘rewarded’ for mastering it, then maybe try another genre or picking up martial arts in real life. Because I personally want to have fun and be entertained in a game like FF and not trying to figure out a 30 button rotation with 3 dot timers, 5 cool downs and a pet to micro manage.

Why do you think Square is not cracking down on addon users? Because they know most dps jobs are unplayable without them.

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I do want a job with that stuff, as I like being challenged by my job and the fight simultaneously. And what the..? Addons are not at all necessary for anything, the closest you get (still very far) is XIVAlexander on MCH if your ping is really high.

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

Why do you think Square is not cracking down on addon users? Because they know most dps jobs are unplayable without them.

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Bait, right? Surely it's a bait.
I play savage since Stormblood, ultimate since ShB, never needed an addon.

I've played since HW but only signed onto the forums now because the state of SMN now makes me feel so sad. I even loved the shadowbringers clunkiness of summoner. Now it just feels like the simplest physical dps job in the game. No other job in the game feels like old summoner and I feel really lost whenever I log in. Have any other former Summoners found a new job to call home?

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

Actually SMN and RDM are two of the best designed dps jobs now in the game, no useless bloat, pretty visuals and strong class fantasy. If you want something overly cryptic to play to feel ‘rewarded’ for mastering it, then maybe try another genre or picking up martial arts in real life. Because I personally want to have fun and be entertained in a game like FF and not trying to figure out a 30 button rotation with 3 dot timers, 5 cool downs and a pet to micro manage.

Why do you think Square is not cracking down on addon users? Because they know most dps jobs are unplayable without them.

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It depends if the only thing you care about is aesthetics or actually care about gameplay design

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I agree that they are perfectly designed job if we are talking about flashiness. Some people care about more than that, but thanks for proving the point.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Egi Assaults were flexible skills with charges that you could use for on demand mobility and to get Ruin IV charges which represented the build up to Bahamut, tying up together your filler phases with your burst.

You are right, though. Just same thing under a different name. Exactly the same.

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You still have your Ruin IV blasts during Bahamut. Its called Astral Impulse.

Does anyone have an explanation as to why SMN discussions always seem to attract either trolls or clueless clowns? It can't be a coincidence anymore.

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

People need to really reel themselves in a take a second to think about the so-called loss of complexity between 5.0 and 6.0 Summoner. They have all the exact same skills under different names.
One of the main complaints I see is that SMN is nothing but a Ruin spam job now, but I ask you, what was Egi Assault except a different flavored Ruin? You spammed Assault, then Ruin IV, then fell back on Ruin III. The only difference now is the name: Rite and Catastrophe. The only real change now at lower levels is that the spell animation is the same, just with different cast times and potencies. I do believe they could have put more effort into that, but in the end, it would still be the same spell with a different color, just like 5.0.
Enkindle is now Summon and Summon II. Same spell, faster cast.
The only true loss to SMN is Tri-Disaster>Bane and in its place is Astral Flow. The only real problem with Astral Flow is that it comes way too late in the interaction with the three Primal Summons at level 86. If we were to get a lesser form of the 86 Astral Flow abilities at an earlier level, that would go a long way toward alleviating the tedium.
Overall, SMN lost nothing except the dots and some button bloat. All of the other skills are till there in some form.

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People, like myself, call it a Ruin spam job, because for the majority of your time leveling it is basically all you are doing. Gemshine itself, when it activates after using a summon, is called Emerald, Topaz, or Ruby -Ruin- with the only update being a half name change at 72 that I've seen from being synched down. The majority of these uses being what Ruin 2 allowed you to do. The same thing happens with your AoE. In addition to that, what further lends itself to being a Ruin spam job is that your basic Ruin and Tri-disaster are locked while you are in summon phases, serving absolutely no purpose other than to be greyed out.

Egi Assaults were a bit more than just that. With a max of 2 charges, even at 80, between I and II, they were not exactly spammable. And yes, they were different. Emerald Carbuncle/Garuda's 1 was an AoE attack and there 2 was a AoE that left a wind swirl on the ground for further DoT. Topaz/Titan's 1 was a shield, 2 an AoE. Ruby/Ifrit's were the simplest in terms of what they did; 1 a single target attack and 2 an AoE. And your Assaults and Enkindle, Aetherflow/Energy Drain and Fester/Painflare were all much easier, more convenient, and more able to be planned for weaving with your GCD's.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Does anyone have an explanation as to why SMN discussions always seem to attract either trolls or clueless clowns? It can't be a coincidence anymore.

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That's a good question.

SMN current state does seem kind of halfway finished (kind of like MNK got changed in the middle of ShB) but the direction it goes, is at least better than how it was before. Old SMN was just a Dot Mage which used a pet only to fool people frim its "true" nature. At least, current SMN uses now summons as its Primary gimmick, but it does lack a couple more buttons for that purpose.

What SMN currently is missing, is just the finer polishing, a proper way to fix Physick and imo, shouldnt have any oGCD's at all. Summoning isnt a easy feat normally in Fantasy Games and require alot of focus from the Summoner, at least reflect that in its toolkit.

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Originally Posted by mathias-merodach

People, like myself, call it a Ruin spam job, because for the majority of your time leveling it is basically all you are doing. Gemshine itself, when it activates after using a summon, is called Emerald, Topaz, or Ruby -Ruin- with the only update being a half name change at 72 that I've seen from being synched down. The majority of these uses being what Ruin 2 allowed you to do. The same thing happens with your AoE. In addition to that, what further lends itself to being a Ruin spam job is that your basic Ruin and Tri-disaster are locked while you are in summon phases, serving absolutely no purpose other than to be greyed out.

Egi Assaults were a bit more than just that. With a max of 2 charges, even at 80, between I and II, they were not exactly spammable. And yes, they were different. Emerald Carbuncle/Garuda's 1 was an AoE attack and there 2 was a AoE that left a wind swirl on the ground for further DoT. Topaz/Titan's 1 was a shield, 2 an AoE. Ruby/Ifrit's were the simplest in terms of what they did; 1 a single target attack and 2 an AoE. And your Assaults and Enkindle, Aetherflow/Energy Drain and Fester/Painflare were all much easier, more convenient, and more able to be planned for weaving with your GCD's.

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As far as the Assaults go, yes they were different, but it mostly came down to Garuda for AoE, Ifrit for single target, and Titan for "who actually uses Titan." As I said, you still have access to all of those skills, they are just split between Carbuncle, Rite, Catastrophe, and Astral Flow. I also said I do believe Astral Flow needs a low level equivalent to bring some of that uniqueness back at lower levels.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Old SMN was just a Dot Mage

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It's been a while since you last played SMN, uh?

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

You still have your Ruin IV blasts during Bahamut. Its called Astral Impulse.

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That is not the same thing. Astral Impulse is an order for Bahamut to attack. Previously, Bahamut would attack each time you cast a spell. Built up Ruin 4 stacks, and Ruin 2 when you had none, were used to attack and do more damage yourself while also having Bahamut attack more times. Now, that interaction between yourself and Bahamut is gone.

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Originally Posted by mathias-merodach

That is not the same thing. Astral Impulse is an order for Bahamut to attack. Previously, Bahamut would attack each time you cast a spell. Built up Ruin 4 stacks, and Ruin 2 when you had none, attack to do more damage yourself while also having Bahamut attack more times. Now, that interaction between yourself and Bahamut is gone.

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Bahamut now auto fires Wyrmwave when summoned at what ever enemy you have targeted. That interaction is still there, but no longer dependent on if you miss a GCD or don't have the optimal set up for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by gsharkboy

I've played since HW but only signed onto the forums now because the state of SMN now makes me feel so sad. I even loved the shadowbringers clunkiness of summoner. Now it just feels like the simplest physical dps job in the game. No other job in the game feels like old summoner and I feel really lost whenever I log in. Have any other former Summoners found a new job to call home?

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Nah, I gave RPR a go because all its resources looked interesting but it doesn't really manage them much at all unless I'm playing it wrong, you mostly just hit buttons as they're available unless saving for raid buffs. It's kinda fun but don't think it's for me, I've never enjoyed melee anyway. The flexibility is nice at least.

I was going to try BRD but their dots have been separated from the rest of their kit and it looks like yet another mindless spammy job. Heard RDM has been getting better but looking at its abilities it seems like mostly the same boring drivel to me. Idk.

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

Bahamut now auto fires Wyrmwave when summoned at what ever enemy you have targeted. That interaction is still there, but no longer dependent on if you miss a GCD or don't have the optimal set up for whatever reason.

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What interaction is there though if they just attack on their own whatever you target? This is no interaction, it's literally the game playing itself for you. Being dependent on what GCDs you cast was akin to it responding to what skills you used, i.e., interacting. And you didn't even need a perfect set up to get all wyrmwaves, the perfect set up would only allow you to pull it off without using Ruin II's thus taking the most out of it. People who couldn't be bothered with it could just spam Ruin II and achieve the same result with less DPS, but the optimization was still there for those who liked it.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

What interaction is there though if they just attack on their own whatever you target? This is no interaction, it's literally the game playing itself for you. Being dependent on what GCDs you cast was akin to it responding to what skills you used, i.e., interacting. And you didn't even need a perfect set up to get all wyrmwaves, the perfect set up would only allow you to pull it off without using Ruin II's thus taking the most out of it. People who couldn't be bothered with it could just spam Ruin II and achieve the same result with less DPS, but the optimization was still there for those who liked it.

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One of the most talked about issues with Bahamut and Phoenix was their autos ghosting on summoning and them moving and not attacking. That issue has now been solved, and yet somehow that is something people want to complain about. Why, I ask?

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

What interaction is there though if they just attack on their own whatever you target? This is no interaction, it's literally the game playing itself for you. Being dependent on what GCDs you cast was akin to it responding to what skills you used, i.e., interacting. And you didn't even need a perfect set up to get all wyrmwaves, the perfect set up would only allow you to pull it off without using Ruin II's thus taking the most out of it. People who couldn't be bothered with it could just spam Ruin II and achieve the same result with less DPS, but the optimization was still there for those who liked it.

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This is probably a good example of the dividing point. Fans of current summoner will enjoy pressing the summon button and watching Bahamut do cool stuff, which is fair he is very cool. Enthusiasts of old summoner will have enjoyed being able to plan ahead and extract more damage from a proactive manipulation of Bahamut's old wyrmwave mechanics. This varies too, some liked SB Bahamut more some liked ShB Bahamut more. Nobody is wrong for liking either approach, but to delete one to make way for the other when it was already made borderline effortless is disappointing to anyone who enjoyed the class.

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Originally Posted by WlyemR

One of the most talked about issues with Bahamut and Phoenix was their autos ghosting on summoning and them moving and not attacking. That issue has now been solved, and yet somehow that is something people want to complain about. Why, I ask?

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As someone who enjoyed SB Bahamut most it's because working within a set of restrictions is more interesting gameplay than just getting everything for free with no effort like current SMN does. I never really complained about Bahamut ghosting since SB when they fixed all my issues with it in ShB.