Endwalker's message (spoilers!)

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Not really. He showed up in Sharlayan and was like "Hey guys, where's my WoL at? Oh? Space? Cool, guess I'm heading there then. Later!" The only reason he gave us a hand was because we weren't going to give him his rematch if we were dead.

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Zenos was our most dedicated Simp. Took us to dinner, gave us a new perspective on life and crossed the entire universe just to get stepped on. If it wasn't so creepy, it would almost be admirable but Simps always gotta come off creepy.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Took us to dinner, gave us a new perspective on life and crossed the entire universe.

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If not for the context, this would sound almost wholesome. lol

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The thing is, even though Emet believes us, he says himself he needs to assist us due to his duty for the star, in the odd chance we are telling the truth. Him and Hythlo also both remark they know they were mind wiped, they can feel it. It’s as simple as her saying yes you were mind wiped. This is why. x,x, and x is happening etc.


I dont really agree with this. People act like they were sacrificing people every other day lmao. They had only sacrificed people a total of two times. A 3rd was on its way however it should be noted based on Emer's short story, they were extremely split on the decision. It's unlikely after the 3rd set they would continue to sacrifice to him, at that point what would they even be sacrificing for? They'd have everything back.

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I also don't agree with what you're responding to, but I think the main reason they wanted them out of Zodiark, besides missing their own, is that they placed particular importance on being able to return to the star when the time was right and it's not clear they'd be able to do so while part of Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

And story wise, our characters and the game world would cease to exist if they had been allowed to intervene, not that they had much time to actually do anything anyway. So it would make sense that it would be more about saving the future than a doomed past. If they wanted to go about it your way, they'd have created an alternate timeline. I suppose that can't really be ruled out. Who knows, maybe the writers will get bored and want to try something new somewhere down the line. But if it's not done right it would be an absolute failure.

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I think that is the real reason, tbh. That, plus they didn't want to spend too much time putting in the narrative work to get Emet and Venat to reconcile, thus time travel supplying her with some rationale that may well have been lacking in the first instance. I wouldn't say no to such an AU one day.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The vast majority did, since the story is written in such a way as to conveniently have the protagonists overcome whatever is sent their way for the most part with minimal losses. If not for the Warrior of Light, Limsa would have been wiped off of the map by the likes of Leviathan and Titan. Or at least heavily damaged. The antagonists not having the Warrior of Light to solve all their problems, however, ensures that their story is far more tragic as those that they're in opposition to. There's heavier stakes, more meaningful losses and extensive damage.

In general, I sympathise more with genuine underdogs rather than those who position themselves as such despite not really losing much by comparison.

I'm also not sure why it would be 'insulting' either. Insulting to who, exactly? Putting aside the simple fact that none of the characters are real, nobody is obligated to like or dislike specific fictional entities. Especially if we're seeking to be entertained.

For example, I was indifferent to Moenbryda so it felt forced to me that she's brought up so often, especially when everybody else is expected to 'move on' and not seek vengeance (but somehow it's conveniently fine for the Scions to cry and scream and threaten to take revenge on someone they care about).

Emotional manipulation as a storytelling device doesn't work on me, either. I had a big grin of disbelief on my face as the Scions were 'sacrificing' themselves because it was obvious none of them were actually going to die, so it all felt like meaningless padding and the same sort of fake stakes that have made many Hollywood movies bland and predictable.

So, yeah, I'm not going to pretend as if the Scions' losses are anywhere near as tragic, drastic or relevant as entire civilisations/planets being wiped out completely. Others are free to think differently, of course - but I doubt there's going to be a consensus when there's a global audience with people from all sorts of different countries, backgrounds and belief systems. Different characters and factions resonate and appeal in a varied manner with that in mind.

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See here is where I think we’ll ultimately never agree. You didn’t feel moved by the events that Scions experienced and don’t feel a deep connection with them. I do. So to me, what I played through was not emotional manipulation in the slightest but good writing. This is at the end of the day a subjective take on things and thus I don’t think we’ll ever convince the other.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Zodiark saved them and the world. Were it not for him the world wouldn’t exist. I think the blame falls more upon the likes of Venat whom, if she had informed Hades and Hythlodaeus of the issues, Zodiark would’ve given them enough time to presumably solve the issue of Meteion. I guess you can argue that with Zodiark saving the world he in doing so caused suffering that otherwise wouldn’t exist since everyone would be dead but that’s essentially Meteion’s mindset so :p

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The point of Venats plan, a plan Emet and Hythlo agree with once they remember everything, are that relying on a deity to solve all your problems will at the end be self defeating, and that what is needed is a response to despair. You inevitably will have to face suffering, and the Ancients, who have shown no willingness to accept that, would fail. Zodiark doesn’t solve the problem, he buys time.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

The point of Venats plan, a plan Emet and Hythlo agree with once they remember everything, are that relying on a deity to solve all your problems will at the end be self defeating, and that what is needed is a response to despair. You inevitably will have to face suffering, and the Ancients, who have shown no willingness to accept that, would fail. Zodiark doesn’t solve the problem, he buys time.

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They faced suffering though. It was in their everyday lives it wasn’t something foreign to them from what we know especially from the short stories.Dunno where you see they showed no willingness to accept that, it was moreso due their their civilization style it wasn’t as common an occurrence as it is with sundered. As i said before he buys time yes, for them to be able to solve the issue. Also i don’t know if Emet and Hythlo specifically agree to the deity part, if it’s the end portion of EW you’re meaning, as much as it is helping the sundered is the only way to keep the planet from being killed by Meteion. In the end though Venat relied on a deity to help solve her problems so it rings a bit hollow in that regard. Even we, the WoL have relied on primals for things. Look at Eden and even the end of EW when we literally have primals summoned.

Weird place to comment this, but I’m starting to think humanity is a simulation. An organic one. And we are plugged into it, got stuck, and can’t escape. So we hop into these avatars (human bodies) for another chance to wake up, but we fail, we die, and our soul has to make a new avatar. And I think the powers that be in this world (insert your favorite secret conspiracy organization here) know this, and are capitalizing on it, doing everything in their power to distract us in every way possible, to keep us from waking up. Because why be a normal person in Heaven when you can rule in this simulated Hell?

So every story I read lately, or in this case every RPG I play, reflects this theory at its core, in some way. I find it fascinating.

Anyway, not saying it’s true, I don’t know anything. Just a theory right now, but it’s a damn good one that explains a lot about the nature of reality and a pan dimensional existence.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Scionic Suffering List

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TL;DR - The Scions have actually suffered less than most every other person introduced in the story

Thancred the orphan who was taken in by one of the most advanced societies on the planet by one of its smartest, most prolific members raised into adulthood as a street savvy turned book savvy ladies' man? The one who is respecting his adoptive daughter's sacrifice, and will likely see the other again because it's a happy story? I would add that he lost his aetheric adeptness due to Y'shtola, but the story solved that for him with new aethereyte design in Endwalker / by just pretending really hard that it doesn't much impact his combat prowess leaning hard on the, "Thancred is a Bad Ass" line of reasoning.


Y'shtola who was raised by another of one of the most advanced societies brightest intellects, one who she bonded with as a mother and mentor? Who gained a prodigious superpower, natural aether sight, by losing her natural eyesight? Who will likely 100% find a way to get back to Runar?

Urianger was in the Waking Sands. The WoL is the sole witness to Moenbryda's sacrifice. His guilt stems from NOT being there when she went through with it. Those parents embraced him warmly, and bade him to forgive himself. He likely hasn't, but he is on the way to doing as much.

Do all of the Baldesion Arsenal or Choose Krile's way, and Ejika Tsunjika is also a survivor of the order. As is his cousin. She lost her adoptive father and others close to her, once, as a loss unique to her.

Alphinaud and Alisaie left home by choice and engage in war by choice. They are also adults by Sharlayan standards. Not sure where you get that they lost, "many friends." Alphinaud has the loss of some Crystal Braves and the earlier side Scions on his mind, but Alisaie's only really lost Tesleen. They both lost Louisoix, who they seem to love more openly than their own father, but they got time to say a final farewell to him as he imparted some final wisdom to them in The Binding Coil (which is much more than most who lost loved ones at Carteneau ever got).

Tesleen was specifically for Alisaie character development. Not a major character at all, really.

Papalymo chose to sacrifice himself, as did Ysayle. The story flipped from respecting such actions to decrying them.

Compare to G'raha Tia and Estinien...

Estinien lost his whole family to Nidhogg as a child. His mother, father, siblings, grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc. No family for Estinien. Ysayle was growing to be a woman he admired, perhaps it would have lead to a love blossoming in his chest, but she was lost to him, too. He has seen many of his fellow dragoons and Ishgardians struck down during the course of the decades long end of the Dragonsong War. He lost his body and mind to Nidhogg from 3.0 till 3.3 transcending mankind to become a dragon soul hybrid whose thoughts and memories are intertwined with Nidhogg's forever.

G'raha Tia awoke to a future where he'd lost all of the people he'd ever known, save Cid, Nero, and the Ironworks. He then watched them age and die, as he lived on tied to the tower. He was then sent back in time, leaving behind everyone he knew, the Ironworks descendants, to live a hundred more years in a post apocalyptic setting where he raised a Viera as his daughter while shepherding an entire society at the base of the Syrcus Tower. He has seen boat loads of people give their lives defending that society from the Sin Eaters. He lost part of himself by merging with his past self, because while the identities reconciled so that we wouldn't lose the man, it's clear that the memories from Post Apocalypse G'raha supersede and impose upon his existence. Past G'raha hasn't much to add other than his youthful body. He also potentially lost his daughter forever, much in the vein of what you sum up for Thancred, but it's likely that Y'shtola's Runar marriage path will lead them both back to be able to see them.

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Basically, with two or three exceptions, the Scions are pampered protagonists who haven't experienced the suffering the setting portrays for the unimportant masses and antagonists. They have their shares of woes, some more than others, but they basically get the best possible ending they could get in spite of such things.

Compare and contrast with real life suffering, while mildly unfair to a piece of fiction it serves to show the absurdity that these are the folks who will forever, "Defeat Despair."

I've lost a lot of extended family over the years, but last year I lost my mother to pancreatic cancer. I was in the room when she gasped her last breath, and her final words and act in life were to grip my brothers' hands and yell, "Please God, help me!" Her eyes went vacant less than ten minutes later, but everyone was too afraid to call it. The hospice worker we had assisting with her care was forced to call it some half hour later, because the shock of it was far too overwhelming for us, my brothers and fathers and sisters in law.

What followed was the all of us, trying to talk about the good times. The good way she lived, while trying and failing to choke back tears. My brothers and father drank heavily, my oldest brother so heavily that he fell over repeatedly and down the stairs twice. I personally felt as though I'd been struck somehow in the chest by a club, just above the solar plexus, like my chest was going to come apart from an invisible pain. I was too afraid to drink, for fear that I might self-destruct. I still feel the loss of my mom everyday, and I don't think it's ever going away.

The Scions rarely convey that they've felt that type of loss, even if they are of the few who have. It's a hard sell to me to feel like they've walked with despair, as they mostly spurn it at every turn or are shielded from it entirely.

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Originally Posted by Abelisk

The message is the WoL has plot armor and always prevails

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No sh*t Sherlock .. by definition the game only exists as long as WoL does.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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Just wanted to say sorry for your loss, i hope you’re doing better now. I do agree with you a lot and i think it’s one of my biggest problems with this expansion. The entire theme is loss, with the main lyrics being loss fire and faith. It’s about despair and suffering so it’s hard to take the scions seriously when they really haven’t suffered as much compared to virtually anyone else, yet somehow are just immune to despair. I think at the very least it would’ve been a nice touch to see some of them almost turn and WE have to go and talk sense into them to calm them down, as a way of helping solidify our relationships with them. But as it stands they’re just untouchable immortal people who hardly have to struggle and suffer while everyone else does and then they go and preach and preach to other people. It just comes off to me as really shoddy. I do find it funny though how in HW they had that entire storyline of Yshtola’s aether slowly draining her life, and that just literally hasn’t ever been mentioned again. Once again, immortal scion who doesn’t have to suffer.

What a lot of people in this thread fail to realize, is that Venat's actions were the only ones who would break the cycle of the Final Days. Had the Ancients been successful in recreating their paradise, they would cause the Final Days again.

The reason why this would happen, is because they did not understood plight, suffering, and despair. They were all akin to gods in their own right, and they only knew of paradise. Emet-Selch's responses to Hermes proves that they wouldn't learn. In short, the Ancients seemingly perfections would obstruct them from learning about life's imperfections. Venat knew that this would happen, as she was already more enlightened than most of the other Ancients.

If Venat would tell the Convocation, then the only people who would be able to fix the problem would be unmade. Mankind of the future was the only one who would be able to deal with it, BECAUSE they suffer. They would be best equipped with dealing with it, because they found joy and meaning in the small happy moments. They basically spelled this part out within the story too, so I know not how it was missed.

Oh, and if Venat would tell the Convocation, she would become a pariah immediately. Place yourself in one of the members of the Convocation's seat, and think about how you would respond.
The woman who refuses to return to the star because "she feels she has yet another purpose" says that the end of the world is coming, and the people who were present were Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus but their memories are wiped.

Anyone remember Harold Camping and how everyone treated him like a fool and disillusioned old man? That's what would happen to Venat.

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Originally Posted by Zukkii

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Once again, Hades and Hythlo took their duties of the star very seriously. Even if they didn’t fully believe us, they worked with us in the off chance we were right and there was a threat to the star. Knowing this, and then combining it with the fact they literally knew they were mind wiped, it wouldn’t take much to convince them of what happened and how to move forward. Again, i don’t understand this obsession with saying the Ancients didn’t know suffering. The short stories go over this and show they did indeed. Especially after the final days, they suffered, and their hope gave rise to Zodiark who at that point saved them and the world and bought them time in which had Venat been open to Hades and Hythlo, they perhaps could’ve come to a resolution. The fact is they were never given a chance. Meteion was the one who did everything anyhow. I mean look at the dragons. They literally did nothing wrong yet still got harassed because ???. She decided to play God, keep secrets and lie, create another problem and then shatter the world, all to what? Make people suffer? That’s abuse mentality right there, especially when she has the audacity to call them all her children, but then was going to leave all of the shards to die and only the source would evacuate should worst come to worst. Amazing Mother.

I'm more inclined to suggest that if Venat wasn't a pretty woman who shed tears when she wiped out her people, very few people would sympathise with her. If the Sundered were able to find a way to defy their fate, then it stands to reason that the much more powerful and influential Unsundered could have done the same thing. It wasn't that Venat had some grand plan that meant she was actually the most intelligent person in the entire universe and knew some secret that numerous other Stars were unable to deduce. It's that she deliberately took away the ability of her own people to successfully fight against a threat and then claimed credit for something that she, herself, wasn't even responsible for.

Even after the Sundering, it was Zodiark who served as the ward against the Final Days. It was Zodiark who bought time against Meteion, not Hydaelyn. Furthermore, the Sundered would not have succeeded in any meaningful capacity if not for the numerous forms of aid provided by stronger beings, including the Unsundered, Midgardsomr and Hydaelyn's 'blessing'.

Ultimately, she didn't even try to approach the Convocation despite Emet-Selch making it perfectly clear that even in cases were he was sceptical about something, he had a duty to investigate for the sake of the Star. As a former member of the Convocation herself, Venat was also a highly respected figure within her society - so the idea that nobody would give her the time of day is strange, especially when a previous quest established her ability to show others memories imprinted upon the land...

As for the whole 'suffering is needed' angle, that doesn't make much sense either - because, again, numerous other Stars endured suffering to various degrees. Yet not a single person could rise up against Meteion until the Scions showed up? I don't buy it - since Venat simply contributed to denying many others the opportunity to do as much simply because she decided to embrace her delusions of grandeur and style herself as a goddess for reasons that weren't even explained.

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Originally Posted by Zukkii

Venat's actions were the only ones who would break the cycle of the Final Days. Had the Ancients been successful in recreating their paradise, they would cause the Final Days again.

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Final days only happen because Hermes being stupid and dynamis being an unknown force. Supposedly Venat told everyone what really happened, I believe the Ancients will be able to prevent another "Hermes" to be born.

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Originally Posted by Zukkii

The reason why this would happen, is because they did not understood plight, suffering, and despair. Emet-Selch's responses to Hermes proves that they wouldn't learn. In short, the Ancients seemingly perfections would obstruct them from learning about life's imperfections. Venat knew that this would happen, as she was already more enlightened than most of the other Ancients.

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They don't know suffering and despair?? Even the Pandaemonium raid show how even during their peaceful times, the Ancients aren't some sort of peaceful hive mind that's unable to perceive sadness. They still have conflicts with each other, they still feel sadness when someone they love is gone. The only difference is that those feelings are rarer compared to sundered life. But it's unfair to impose our standard on them.

Venat is "more enlighten" just because she heard about some adventures from one guy from the future, then decided the fate of the star by herself, a message that previously is deemed a bad thing by the game.

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Originally Posted by Zukkii

Mankind of the future was the only one who would be able to deal with it, BECAUSE they suffer. They would be best equipped with dealing with it, because they found joy and meaning in the small happy moments.

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Only half true. The point isn't just "feel suffering", but because she thinks having more control of dynamis will help them fight meteion since she's made of dynamis. Hence, the sundering.

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Originally Posted by Zukkii

Oh, and if Venat would tell the Convocation, she would become a pariah immediately. Place yourself in one of the members of the Convocation's seat, and think about how you would respond.

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Except Venat is the previous Azem, one of the convocation which was highly regarded. See how she's still respected by the other Ancients on elpis? And this is a story in magical setting when fate and prophecy are the norm. Regarding the memory loss thing, many people already pointed out that: 1) she can do the "show the past" using environmental aether like when she help us; 2) I refuse to believe that the Ancients, master of magic, can't research a spell to reverse kairos effect.

Even if option 1 and 2 aren't successful, once the final days start it will only prove her right and they will listen to her. Remember that the final days reach Amaurot last and they actually still had time to debate and research about it.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

The Scions rarely convey that they've felt that type of loss, even if they are of the few who have. It's a hard sell to me to feel like they've walked with despair, as they mostly spurn it at every turn or are shielded from it entirely.

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My condolences. I've lost a lot of family as well, including my parents. I've also been witness to the slow, painful deterioration that cancer causes. Having to watch from the sidelines helpless to do anything, conflicted between not wanting to lose them and wanting their suffering to end.

Coupled with my depression, maybe I've experienced too much trauma and grief to find EW's message or most of its characters relatable.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm more inclined to suggest that if Venat wasn't a pretty woman who shed tears when she wiped out her people, very few people would sympathise with her.

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If the Ascians looked like Vauthry people wouldn't be nearly as sympathetic to them either, they struck fanboy/fangirl gold with with pretty much all the Ancients.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

If the Ascians looked like Vauthry people wouldn't be nearly as sympathetic to them either, they struck fanboy/fangirl gold with with pretty much all the Ancients.

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Tbf, most of them we dont even know what they look like behind their mask lol.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

If the Ascians looked like Vauthry people wouldn't be nearly as sympathetic to them either, they struck fanboy/fangirl gold with with pretty much all the Ancients.

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I doubt that, since a lot of people who have sympathised with the Ascians and Ancients did so due to their circumstances and story, rather than what they looked like. Certainly, in some cases the appearance is a bonus - though I noticed that there's far less sturdy ground for those defending Venat to stand upon by comparison, given her lack of a solidified goal and no real effort to explain her motives at length.

Incidentally, though, Vauthry ended up as far more sympathetic to me than Venat. I found him to be entertaining throughout Shadowbringers, much in the same way as Queen Brahne from FFIX. I guess it helps that he genuinely believed in his plans whereas Venat couldn't help but be vague and hypocritical right up until the very end.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

If the Ascians looked like Vauthry people wouldn't be nearly as sympathetic to them either, they struck fanboy/fangirl gold with with pretty much all the Ancients.

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This. I still see people throw Zodiark under the bus even though he is literally the reason why the star exists today. Without Zodiark’s aether shield and restoring life there wouldn’t be anything left of the star. Yet Venat gets all the credit for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I doubt that, since a lot of people who have sympathised with the Ascians and Ancients did so due to their circumstances and story, rather than what they looked like. Certainly, in some cases the appearance is a bonus - though I noticed that there's far less sturdy ground for those defending Venat to stand upon by comparison, given her lack of a solidified goal and no real effort to explain her motives at length.

Incidentally, though, Vauthry ended up as far more sympathetic to me than Venat. I found him to be entertaining throughout Shadowbringers, much in the same way as Queen Brahne from FFIX. I guess it helps that he genuinely believed in his plans whereas Venat couldn't help but be vague and hypocritical right up until the very end.

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It's nonsense, in any case. People have come to like the Ascians in spite of them having a rather rough reputation initially, through learning what they went through and who they truly were - for the longest time they were presented as villainous, particularly if you did not pay close attention to Elidibus as a character. Hydaelyn has been pushed on us as benevolent since the outset.

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Originally Posted by RoroCookies

This. I still see people throw Zodiark under the bus even though he is literally the reason why the star exists today. Without Zodiark’s aether shield and restoring life there wouldn’t be anything left of the star. Yet Venat gets all the credit for some reason.

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I'd re-read her post. She's not making that point. Quite the opposite. Though I agree.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

If the Ascians looked like Vauthry people wouldn't be nearly as sympathetic to them either, they struck fanboy/fangirl gold with with pretty much all the Ancients.

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Eh, debatable. The Ascians ultimately had a sympathetic backstory regardless of their appearance. I can't say the same for Venat.

Taking appearances out entirely, I tell you there's someone who knows the future. They know all the details including not only the end of their civilization, but the deaths of numerous worlds. Knowing this, they not only do nothing to prevent it, but actively ensure that the future they know about comes to pass. Would you think this person a protagonist or an antagonist?

I tell you there's 3 people who's world was destroyed. Their civilization is gone, their loved ones have been turned into malformed creatures with no memories. They spend the next 12k+ years trying to make everyone whole again and restore what was lost. Would you think them antagonists or protagonists?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Tbf, most of them we dont even know what they look like behind their mask lol.

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Sure, but I'd be shocked if any of them looked like Vauthry lol

The pining for Emet started in Shb, and now the headcanon throuple-fantasies between Emet/Hythlodaeus/WoL(Azem) is off the charts. :p

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Originally Posted by RoroCookies

This. I still see people throw Zodiark under the bus even though he is literally the reason why the star exists today. Without Zodiark’s aether shield and restoring life there wouldn’t be anything left of the star. Yet Venat gets all the credit for some reason.

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They honestly did Zodiark really dirty this expansion in numerous ways. It’s pretty hard to take the devs seriously when they say they’re both equal but paint one in a benevolent light and then have the other be used in a negative manner and hardly spoken of his good deeds afterwards. Maybe instead of playing dress-up with rabbits we could’ve had more insight on that but alas it wasn’t meant to be.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That’s abuse mentality right there, especially when she has the audacity to call them all her children, but then was going to leave all of the shards to die and only the source would evacuate should worst come to worst. Amazing Mother.

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How DARE you criticize mommy Hydaelyn's parenting!

In all seriousness though this expansion's story felt like anime schlock to me and Hydaelyn's motives are very weak, I'll admit.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Eh, debatable. The Ascians ultimately had a sympathetic backstory regardless of their appearance.

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I'm not suggesting they're only sympathetic characters because of how they look, because of course they are. But their appeal is massively enhanced by all being very handsome/pretty people, Venat included of course.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Incidentally, though, Vauthry ended up as far more sympathetic to me than Venat. I found him to be entertaining throughout Shadowbringers, much in the same way as Queen Brahne from FFIX

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His story was definitely pretty sad, he never even had a chance to be a different kind of person.

Brahne is a good example because she's also pretty much seen as a joke character because of how she looks.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Eh, debatable. The Ascians ultimately had a sympathetic backstory regardless of their appearance. I can't say the same for Venat.

Taking appearances out entirely, I tell you there's someone who knows the future. They know all the details including not only the end of their civilization, but the deaths of numerous worlds. Knowing this, they not only do nothing to prevent it, but actively ensure that the future they know about comes to pass. Would you think this person a protagonist or an antagonist?

I tell you there's 3 people who's world was destroyed. Their civilization is gone, their loved ones have been turned into malformed creatures with no memories. They spend the next 12k+ years trying to make everyone whole again and restore what was lost. Would you think them antagonists or protagonists?

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Plus she just springs it on them after a disagreement, and had no clear rationale initially other than a preference for ambiguous "new lives", which based on the cool-headed approach her summoners were taking, could very well have been similar to the creatures the ancients created to integrate in the world. So she had to be supplied said rationale through time travel antics to make it not seem totally capricious and unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

If the Ascians looked like Vauthry people wouldn't be nearly as sympathetic to them either, they struck fanboy/fangirl gold with with pretty much all the Ancients.

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To an extent... but at the same time, people first fell in love with Hyth back when he was literally faceless in SHB lol

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Plus she just springs it on them after a disagreement, and had no clear rationale initially other than a preference for ambiguous "new lives"

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The presentation we get of the Sundering is frustratingly non-literal and I don't know if we're supposed to take that as how the confrontation went or not. In the same sequence we see Hyth farewelling Hades, which can't be part of the same event as he must have been one of the first two successful sacrifices to Zodiark (since his soul is up there on the moon) some time before Venat/Hydaelyn prevented the third from taking place.

If nothing else, from the cave paintings in Qitana I was expecting to see more of an epic clash of goddess-Hydaelyn against Zodiark than "Venat walks in and stabs the ground".

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Originally Posted by Rokke

To an extent... but at the same time, people first fell in love with Hyth back when he was literally faceless in SHB lol

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And with Hydaelyn when she was still just a big floating mommy crystal.

I'm not even saying it's a bad thing at all, just saying the ones we've seen turned out to be very gorgeous people and it helps their appeal.

I'm not team Venat (or anyone else) and I'm not even a huge fan of how they decided to wrap this up, it kind of felt like they had already committed to closing this story arc so they ham-fisted it a bit leaving a lot of questions on all sides.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The presentation we get of the Sundering is frustratingly non-literal and I don't know if we're supposed to take that as how the confrontation went or not. In the same sequence we see Hyth farewelling Hades, which can't be part of the same event as he must have been one of the first two successful sacrifices to Zodiark (since his soul is up there on the moon) some time before Venat/Hydaelyn prevented the third from taking place.

If nothing else, from the cave paintings in Qitana I was expecting to see more of an epic clash of goddess-Hydaelyn against Zodiark than "Venat walks in and stabs the ground".

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It was presented in an 'artsy' manner, though the events happened as they were shown for the most part. Ultimately Venat murdered and betrayed her own people and the Ascians were simply always working to reverse that much in the same way as the Sundered were fighting to avoid being wiped out themselves.

Had the Sundering been an accident or something that happened because Venat, too, lost her memories during the confrontation with Hermes then she would have walked away from it all looking a lot better than she did.

Ultimately, though, Venat simply ended up being one of the main reasons for most of the conflicts within the setting and did very little to actively remedy the situation that came about.

I can only speculate, but I imagine that much like 5.3 the story was meant to go in a different direction only to be tweaked at the last minute. Maybe we'll get some hints at what the alternative was set to be in interviews or some such.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

To an extent... but at the same time, people first fell in love with Hyth back when he was literally faceless in SHB lol

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I'm one of those, but he just seemed nice. Emet was far harder to sympathise with because of all the awful things he has done – stirring up empires and wars, his first introduction being quite awful and manipulative to Varis... since then they've done a lot more looking at who he was before all that, though I could never quite reconcile that encouraged sympathy with him inflicting suffering on so many people. It's good to hear his younger untempered self be so horrified by the prospect of his later actions, though.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm more inclined to suggest that if Venat wasn't a pretty woman who shed tears when she wiped out her people, very few people would sympathise with her.

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Considering how much art and fanfic Emet gets for being a hot sad dude, this is debatable at best, hypocritical at worst. Its so easy to reduce characters popularity to something basic

There is absolute no way to prove people who like Venat do so for her looks more then her character then there is to prove the same for the Emet.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm one of those, but he just seemed nice. Emet was far harder to sympathise with because of all the awful things he has done – stirring up empires and wars, his first introduction being quite awful and manipulative to Varis... since then they've done a lot more looking at who he was before all that, though I could never quite reconcile that encouraged sympathy with him inflicting suffering on so many people. It's good to hear his younger untempered self be so horrified by the prospect of his later actions, though.

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To be fair, the only reason he engaged in all of that was due to Venat's actions...

Ultimately he worked to attempt to prevent his race and culture from being wiped out entirely, which is an admirable enough goal. The alternative would be to simply roll over and die. It's much the same for the Garleans, really - had they not done what they did, they would have been wiped out.

Ultimately, Venat is to blame for much of the story's conflicts. She is the one who forced the existence of such suffering, by her own admission. Emet was simply seeking the preservation of his people, which is an admirable act. It's unfortunate that such would come at the cost of other beings, though the only reason it came to that is due to - again - Venat.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

Considering how much art and fanfic Emet gets for being a hot sad dude, this is debatable at best, hypocritical at worst. Its so easy to reduce characters popularity to something basic

There is absolute no way to prove people who like Venat do so for her looks more then her character then there is to prove the same for the Emet.

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I don't think it's hypocritical. Especially when there's a big difference in regards to how the player character is forced to interact with sad female characters compared to sad male characters. There's also a lot of people over on the lore forum who defended Hydaelyn/Venat for years based on her 'soft voice' and being a 'benevolent mother'. Apologies if I hit a nerve, though - it most certainly wasn't my intention!

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

Considering how much art and fanfic Emet gets for being a hot sad dude, this is debatable at best, hypocritical at worst. Its so easy to reduce characters popularity to something basic

There is absolute no way to prove people who like Venat do so for her looks more then her character then there is to prove the same for the Emet.

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Perhaps not but i think there’s signs even in the game itself that point to this. Look at Omega for example, who chose to use his “hot” female form when talking to us. I think it’s also the pretty clear cut reason as to why they decided to make Meteion a “cute” little bird girl, so it would be easier for people to sympathize with her. It’s a typical trope anyhow, with the beautiful nice seeming lady or child who ends up being evil etc, and i believe that’s used far more than there is an attractive or cute guy turning out to be evil(but obviously there’s examples of that as well).But i think theres a noticeable bias where yknow, we go and hug Meteion or dont harbor any hard feelings for Venat, yet in for example (pandaemonium spoilers)

We're constantly seen giving a dirty look and having negative dialogue whenever Lahabrea is mentioned. There seems to be some bias in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I'd re-read her post. She's not making that point. Quite the opposite. Though I agree.

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Oops that’s a my bad then lol.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

Considering how much art and fanfic Emet gets for being a hot sad dude, this is debatable at best, hypocritical at worst. Its so easy to reduce characters popularity to something basic

There is absolute no way to prove people who like Venat do so for her looks more then her character then there is to prove the same for the Emet.

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While I agree with you on the point about Venat's looks being the primary reason why people like her (I don't think that's the reason, I think its the way she's portrayed in the story) in Emet's case, he actually was not intended to be hot. (tbh I think he looks pretty average) I think it was his story that made him attractive to the player base, not his appearance. I don't recall him being that popular when he first showed up in towards the end of stormblood although ofc I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Perhaps not but i think there’s signs even in the game itself that point to this. Look at Omega for example, who chose to use his “hot” female form when talking to us. I think it’s also the pretty clear cut reason as to why they decided to make Meteion a “cute” little bird girl, so it would be easier for people to sympathize with her. It’s a typical trope anyhow, with the beautiful nice seeming lady or child who ends up being evil etc, and i believe that’s used far more than there is an attractive or cute guy turning out to be evil(but obviously there’s examples of that as well).But i think theres a noticeable bias where yknow, we go and hug Meteion or dont harbor any hard feelings for Venat, yet in for example (pandaemonium spoilers)

We're constantly seen giving a dirty look and having negative dialogue whenever Lahabrea is mentioned. There seems to be some bias in that regard.

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This argument would hold more weight if we didnt spend a significant chunk of 5.3 and EW being very sympathetic to Elidibus AND Emet.

Were literally given the option to

apologize to Eli before he sends us to the past. We redouble the how to Emet to not waste his legacy/his peoples legacy. We are offered a chance to promise Amon will help him find an answer to his question in the next life. Laha is the singular expectation and that includes Mitron and Loghrif from Eden. Its also not a guarantee at all that it stays that way.

Really in general EW treats ALL the Ancient aligned characters with tons of sympathy, it gives us chances to bond/mourn/forgive ALL of them if we so choose. The idea that they played favorites based on gender or alignment just rings false when so much times is spent with each of them.

Which goes back to the main point. Not that people have to like Venat, but implying people that do are more influenced by her looks and people who love the Unsundered only do so on the strength of there backstory just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Firstly cause there is no actual way to prove that, but secondly because ALL the Ancients are going to appeal to large swaths of people based off looks AND writing. None of them pass for anything less then beautiful or cute. There backstory's all come from the same root.

If you have preference for one over the other that's fine, but its down to preference, not some objective but totally unprovable fact that people who like the pretty sad girl do so mostly because she is pretty while people who like the pretty depressed man do so mostly off the strength of his writing.

Reality is its a mix of both and there is no real way to quantify it at all.

You can also really like both (Which is where I stand)

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Originally Posted by Garnetiferous

While I agree with you on the point about Venat's looks being the primary reason why people like her (I don't think that's the reason, I think its the way she's portrayed in the story) in Emet's case, he actually was not intended to be hot. (tbh I think he looks pretty average) I think it was his story that made him attractive to the player base, not his appearance. I don't recall him being that popular when he first showed up in towards the end of stormblood although ofc I could be wrong.

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He wasn't particularly popular in SB. I remember people groaning over Ascians being reintroduced to the plot because at the time they were flatter than Zenos character-wise. No one could have guessed what we were in for :P

And yeah, I don't find SHB Emet or Elpis Emet pretty/handsome (especially standing next to Hermes and Hyth) but the combo of his mannerisms and story made him my fav. I think the character designer even said they were surprised he was so popular because he wasn't Final Fantasy Handsome Anime Man™

I have never been a fan of Hydaelyn starting from ARR, so I certainly didn't go into EW expecting to like her, but even I liked Venat in Elpis. It's the decisions she made afterwards that are the problem. I understand people don't want to dislike her, especially as the game strong-armed the WoL into being BFFs with her. It's funny, I figured they wouldn't make her evil because players might be upset they were championing an antagonist, but I didn't expect that they would be so heavy handed in that you must like her and think what she did was for the best. Honestly, between her and Hermes I felt like the narrative was gaslighting me.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We're constantly seen giving a dirty look and having negative dialogue whenever <redacted> is mentioned. There seems to be some bias in that regard.

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This has become one of my pet peeves in the game. My character emoting/expressing in ways that don't match how I feel as a player. It's never been as insufferable as it has been in EW though. It felt like being able to name and customize my WoL was just a technicality, ultimately I'm RPing someone else's character who feels very differently about certain things than I do. Maybe it's always been this way and it's taken me until EW to realize it, but it sucks. I may as well just fantasia into Ardbert. :P