SE are leaving BLM to rot by giving SMN and RDM even more utility

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Red Mage's only curatives are on the gcd. Red Mage by necessity dumps 500+ potency worth of gcd in order to raise at all. Red Mage is still bound by its initial 1.9s cast time, if interrupted it loses not just one but two casts. With potencies as they are, e. Reprise is a hilariously bad dps loss even as a "mobility tool" so once Red Mage reaches the end of its mobility from dualcast and possibly swift cast, they've reached the limit of their mobility, unless you count their melee phase which is fair, but limited itself both by range and resources.

Phoenix tends to come out during bursts of damage anyway, and it's worth way more than a 10% mitigation every two minutes. Summoner now also has access to essentially two ogcd personal shields at will. Summoner has so many free gcds of movement that they have a "casting phase." On a category of classes called "casters." Raise aside, their sheer mobility is going to make them much more valuable for prog than Red Mage, especially in fights as unforgiving as ultimate where you barely even have a chance to raise.

Of course the question none of us can answer right now is if SMN and RDM stay where they are damage-relative. As it stands, there are benefits and drawbacks to both casters, and now that double caster is on the table it may come to pass that both become the prog mage.

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I did not say SMN is not strong, but it definitely have weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Red Mage's only curatives are on the gcd. Red Mage by necessity dumps 500+ potency worth of gcd in order to raise at all. Red Mage is still bound by its initial 1.9s cast time, if interrupted it loses not just one but two casts. With potencies as they are, e. Reprise is a hilariously bad dps loss even as a "mobility tool" so once Red Mage reaches the end of its mobility from dualcast and possibly swift cast, they've reached the limit of their mobility, unless you count their melee phase which is fair, but limited itself both by range and resources.

Phoenix tends to come out during bursts of damage anyway, and it's worth way more than a 10% mitigation every two minutes. Summoner now also has access to essentially two ogcd personal shields at will. Summoner has so many free gcds of movement that they have a "casting phase." On a category of classes called "casters." Raise aside, their sheer mobility is going to make them much more valuable for prog than Red Mage, especially in fights as unforgiving as ultimate where you barely even have a chance to raise.

Of course the question none of us can answer right now is if SMN and RDM stay where they are damage-relative. As it stands, there are benefits and drawbacks to both casters, and now that double caster is on the table it may come to pass that both become the prog mage.

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Except it's not useful at all. Phoenix regen is just a 700 regen every two minutes. Unless you are playing with healers that literally do not know how to play, they can do that and more in a 1 or 2 oGCDs.

Reprise is not that much of a DPS loss as you think it is. It's like using ruin 2. If you spam it, youll pay the price

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

Except it's not useful at all. Phoenix regen is just a 700 regen every two minutes. Unless you are playing with healers that literally do not know how to play, they can do that and more in a 1 or 2 oGCDs.

Reprise is not that much of a DPS loss as you think it is. It's like using ruin 2. If you spam it, youll pay the price

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Right now Reprise isn't much of a dps loss, in fact in the right situations it's a gain.

In Endwalker, with the potencies as displayed right now so this could change... it's a ridiculously bad DPS loss, to the point you're probably better off just not casting. The bread and butter (cast / dualcast) will average to 138.4 potency per second, while Reprise will be 132 potency per second. Take into account that it costs 5/5 still (which is now 1/10 of the cost of a melee combo as opposed to 1/16) and that the average potency per mana is shaping up to be in the neighborhood of 16.9, that discrepancy is only going to widen further.

Also healers who are optimizing to the best of their ability will probably take SMN's Phoenix into account. Will it matter outside of that? Probably not much, probably about as much as a 10% mitigation will matter every two minutes will. That said, I will cede that I exaggerated with its capabilities a bit.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

I did not say SMN is not strong, but it definitely have weaknesses.

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Of course it has weaknesses, I suppose your post just compelled me to do a surface-level comparison of what both bring to the table and cost.

SMN is nice but fancy hat >>>> stupid horn

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Originally Posted by Sunako

DPS output between RDM and SMN is not really big. RDM Embolden is better than SMN buff. You can not choose when you can use your phoenix heals without massive dps loss. RDM do not need hold Swiftcast for raise. RDM magic Magic Barrier can be used on any mechanic you want without dps loss.

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yeah smn buff is worse sadly , 5% 20S would have been better

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

yeah smn buff is worse sadly , 5% 20S would have been better

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In SMN's case actually not, because you can not use that buff outside of carbuncle. 30sec buff last long enough so you can use it before pull and start instantly with Bahamut.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

while Reprise will be 132 potency per second. Take into account that it costs 5/5 still (which is now 1/10 of the cost of a melee combo as opposed to 1/16) and that the average potency per mana is shaping up to be in the neighborhood of 16.9, that discrepancy is only going to widen further.

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On the other hand, Reprise can't cause Manafication to drift at all by scuffing your hitting 40/40 if you over use it, so losing mana might not cost you a melee phase depending on where the fight ends.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

On the other hand, Reprise can't cause Manafication to drift at all by scuffing your hitting 40/40 if you over use it, so losing mana might not cost you a melee phase depending on where the fight ends.

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Yep. First sentence of my post: "right now, Reprise isn't much of a loss, in fact it could even be a gain." I don't mean to sound grumpy about it and maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought I was being since this is the second post about ShB Reprise which is a decent tool.

My statement about it being a loss pertains specifically to endwalker's media four build. With the numbers we're given, which may change, there will be enough overhead for melee combos that Reprise shouldn't ever be needed for that purpose, and manafication is now a flat 50/50 gain so unless you're already 50/50+ which would be very avoidable, it's a heavy loss to use. At the moment calculations are going on for how to use a triple combo and right now numerically it looks like starting in the neighborhood of 75/75 gives you enough overhead to drop 3 in quick succession too.

I hope e. Reprise sees a buff between the tour and launch so that it can maintain its status as a good movement tool and mana optimizer.

Because Black Mage is able to gain lots of MP extremely quickly, its version of a raise spell would probably need to be on a minute cooldown to balance that out, but I think it could work and seems reasonable to me; if you don't want to use it, then don't, but I really don't think it's fair for the job to still be the only Disciple of Magic that doesn't have some sort of a resurrection action.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

Because Black Mage is able to gain lots of MP extremely quickly, its version of a raise spell would probably need to be on a minute cooldown to balance that out, but I think it could work and seems reasonable to me; if you don't want to use it, then don't, but I really don't think it's fair for the job to still be the only Disciple of Magic that doesn't have some sort of a resurrection action.

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There's no reason why BLM needs or should have a raise. BLM is the heavy damage hitter caster job, that is its role, and I don't see why so many people think every job should do the exact same thing.

I still don't think BLM needs a raise spell, and would prefer to just see them get an other-caster-only Manashift oGCD, but if we want to standarize and limit a bit more here's some elaboration on prior ideas:

SMN: Gets one charge of Resurrection per phoenix trance, can't cast it otherwise

RDM: Verraise is usable at-will but costs a chunk of white mana as well as MP

BLM: "Reanimate" costs a polyglot stack and brings the target back with 1 HP and Living Dead status (as in, they will die unless healed to full in 10s)

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Originally Posted by Ferrinus

I still don't think BLM needs a raise spell, and would prefer to just see them get an other-caster-only Manashift oGCD, but if we want to standarize and limit a bit more here's some elaboration on prior ideas:

SMN: Gets one charge of Resurrection per phoenix trance, can't cast it otherwise

RDM: Verraise is usable at-will but costs a chunk of white mana as well as MP

BLM: "Reanimate" costs a polyglot stack and brings the target back with 1 HP and Living Dead status (as in, they will die unless healed to full in 10s)

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That sounds awful. Why should summoner be able to use raise at virtually no cost to them in terms of damage while RDM's raise is made even more damaging to their overall damage numbers? It's bad enough that it wastes a GCD and loses a verthunder but actually removing white mana from our gauge in order to use it is just terrible.

I was thinking the drawback would be its limited usage, but you raise a good point depending on how quickly phases come I could see the SMN raise only being castable in phoenix phase (instead of that one regen-granting ogcd) or also casting your aetherflow stacks or even your enkindle [summon].

Blackmage is fine. It is one of the classes that gets the most attention due to it being yoshi's main. It was never intended to be a utility class and it still is a dangerous monster when played by a good player. Let the other casters have a little something for themself for once instead of you having to constantly meanmog them as master race black mage.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

There's no reason why BLM needs or should have a raise. BLM is the heavy damage hitter caster job, that is its role, and I don't see why so many people think every job should do the exact same thing.

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It's mostly because BLM is largely discouraged in prog because of it lacking raise. This makes it the only job presently in the game where players are expected to main two jobs if they happen to prefer BLM.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This makes it the only job presently in the game where players are expected to main two jobs if they happen to prefer BLM.

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Well that's not exactly true. There are hardcore groups that ask BLMs to play SMN/RDM for prog before switching to BLM, but on the flip side those same groups want RDMs to switch to BLM or SMN afterwards. Or they just outright look for a SMN/BLM combo and leave RDM out entirely. But, again, those are only specific groups looking for specific things. Most groups outside that specific niche are more than happy to welcome a BLM into the fold especially when paired with a raise-caster. I dunno, I just see it as silly for BLM mains to pretend to be victims when it is actually RDM who has been the red-headed stepchild of casters for some time now (especially with embolden being what it is pre-6.0).

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Well that's not exactly true. There are hardcore groups that ask BLMs to play SMN/RDM for prog before switching to BLM, but on the flip side those same groups want RDMs to switch to BLM or SMN afterwards. Or they just outright look for a SMN/BLM combo and leave RDM out entirely. But, again, those are only specific groups looking for specific things. Most groups outside that specific niche are more than happy to welcome a BLM into the fold especially when paired with a raise-caster. I dunno, I just see it as silly for BLM mains to pretend to be victims when it is actually RDM who has been the red-headed stepchild of casters for some time now (especially with embolden being what it is pre-6.0).

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Meanwhile our group is happily going RDM/BLM with the changes to Embolden.

blm raise? no ty

I personally want a rez because first it would solve the whole "BLM contribution is it's DPS " issue which is useless when progging (bexause DPS doesn't matter) and too good when you're done progging (because it's the only thing that matters)

The bigger the gap the better for the BLM until it's too big that everyone feel like the other are trash tier because they're x% below BLM.
But then what happens is that they reduce the gap until you feel like you're really missing on rez for prog for only a few more %. On some fight it could matter (e8s first month most notably) but usually.. as in "all the time beside that one overtuned fight", it doesn't. The little bit of more DPS you bring as a BLM doesn't off set the impact rez had while progging said encounter. (Assuming you're not the one always tanking the floor. )

The issue is that rez has so much of an impact during progression nothing in any other role can compare to it. OFC it's only during prog.

One could say "you RDM during prog then BLM", which is usually what I do. I RDM until about 75% of the fight is known and then swap to BLM because that's the job I like, but relearning the whole fight on a new job, everytime, when "next try could be the kill" leads to average DPS.

Tbh I wouldn't mind an external source like a Pheonix down on a 180s cd.. even if it had 10s cast. I don't care, I just want to prog on my BLM and be able to rez whenever more than 1 or 2 people die on the last mech so we can see a bit further.

You can say "then just do it" but it is extremely frustrating to always be alive, see 3 people dead and know that if you were a RDM, we could practice the next mech. But we won't, because both healers used their rez, one has to start casting but won't be done by the time we have to move.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I personally want a rez because first it would solve the whole "BLM contribution is it's DPS " issue which is useless when progging (bexause DPS doesn't matter) and too good when you're done progging (because it's the only thing that matters)

The bigger the gap the better for the BLM until it's too big that everyone feel like the other are trash tier because they're x% below BLM.
But then what happens is that they reduce the gap until you feel like you're really missing on rez for prog for only a few more %. On some fight it could matter (e8s first month most notably) but usually.. as in "all the time beside that one overtuned fight", it doesn't. The little bit of more DPS you bring as a BLM doesn't off set the impact rez had while progging said encounter. (Assuming you're not the one always tanking the floor. )

The issue is that rez has so much of an impact during progression nothing in any other role can compare to it. OFC it's only during prog.

One could say "you RDM during prog then BLM", which is usually what I do. I RDM until about 75% of the fight is known and then swap to BLM because that's the job I like, but relearning the whole fight on a new job, everytime, when "next try could be the kill" leads to average DPS.

Tbh I wouldn't mind an external source like a Pheonix down on a 180s cd.. even if it had 10s cast. I don't care, I just want to prog on my BLM and be able to rez whenever more than 1 or 2 people die on the last mech so we can see a bit further.

You can say "then just do it" but it is extremely frustrating to always be alive, see 3 people dead and know that if you were a RDM, we could practice the next mech. But we won't, because both healers used their rez, one has to start casting but won't be done by the time we have to move.

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You can just look at the "Dark Warrior" tank debacle and youll know that copy paste too much not only devaluates the jobs (because why having X jobs when they become virtually the same with different cool animations?) but also force them to rebalance the entire job archtype and thats a can of worms you prefer to remain closed. BLM getting raise would mean that both RDM and SMN would get damage boost, and then BLM would complain that they have to remain still while both RDM and SMN have tons of free movement time in exchange of a tiny dps difference and thats when playing perfectly, if the BLM messed up their damage would probably be lower than both of them.

You get a heavy hitter you get low/no supportish skills to compensate for your personal damage its really simple. The idea is for every job to remain relevant and not become the redstep child (*cough* Bard*cough*) of their type, but also not having to share too many skills and dilute their identity, becoming mere "skins"

Heck the only reason SMN gets a res is due to the ACN mess and its quite probable that if the rework is well received they will lose it on the next expansion. Lore wise the only reason that RDM can raise is because they dabble in both Black and White magic even if they are unable to reach the same level of mastery of a pure practicioner. BLM has been never, ever being able to revive anyone and even as a thaumaturge with all the related dead lore they are far different from necromancers. To ask for them to have a res is like asking for a monk to be able to do at least city buster energy atacks because martial artists on Dragon Ball they can just fart and blow up a planet

Jokes aside, lore tends to be very relevant to create a job's personal flavour and identity and when the lore goes a bit too crazy they tend to segregate lore and gameplay for balance reasons, like a 14 Chakra Monk being basically a Master Roshi at his prime while being "just" at lv 60 and still be able to be beaten by future foes instead of godstomping 95% of the world's population. The only situations where they add extra gimmicks like revives on non WHM jobs is because it would be a royal pain to do dungeons with only WHM being able to res, so they come up with plausible excuses like "they are not dead just unconscious" and similar to make all healers playable so they get "buffed" compared to their lore for gameplay reasons because they would be useless otherwise.

A BLM getting res not only would have not make any sense lore wise but also no one would say "its unplayable" same as people saying that SAM is useless because they dont have a Brotherhood-like skill despite their higher damage

But we're not heavy lifter.
If you take a look at logs, you'll see that it always follow this trend, at low percentile we're below Summoner and always slightly ahead of RDM
Then we slowly catch up and beat both of them by up to 500-1000 DPS depending on the fight and then, once you reach really high ozrf, RDM catches up and is only a few hundred DPS behind us.. however at this point we're talking 200-300 DPS behind 25.5k rdps... Barely above 1% more DPS.

We're not heavy lifter.

I wouldn't mind if we were not marginally above the others but thats not the case. Heck at extremely high perf we're actually behind... not by much mind you.

But the reality is that a RDM will do the same dps as a BLM but also bring spammable rez.

And the very reason it is the case is because everytime redmage are behind, like more than 1%, they complain that they can't properly contribute DPS and that they shouldn't be punished for a rez they don't use during a kill.

You then have an endless cycle, if BLM are too above, (and too can be as small as 5%) there are complains and the other jobs get buffed. If BLM isn't first they get buffed until they are mathematically first.. but what does it matter to do 25400 rdps when the RDM does 25250.


I don't mind having no rez if it means being an actual heavy lifter. But if heavy lift means between 0.2% ~ 1% more deeps at any perf above gray... Then I feel robbed of that *big nukes* identity.
Because it doesnt feel big at all.

It just feel averaged, and homogenised

I don't think that you should ever automatically do more dps just because you decided to pick a particular job. That's a mediocre mindset. If you're going to do more damage on a job, it should be reflected in the performance distribution (i.e. a more punishing job where most players underperform except at the top percentiles vs. a more evenly distributed performance). There will always be players looking for more challenging gameplay, and you should give them the option of that risk/reward tradeoff. You want to do more damage, then ask for opportunities to earn it. Ask for more difficult gameplay in exchange for more damage, I'm fine with that.

You can't trade-off damage and utility because they're unrelated. The real problem that this thread highlights is the power of raises, and there really should be a hard cap on their uses, even if only on harder difficulty settings for fights. But that's also not an opportunity or excuse to go begging for freebies.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't think that you should ever automatically do more dps just because you decided to pick a particular job. That's a mediocre mindset. If you're going to do more damage on a job, it should be reflected in the performance distribution (i.e. a more punishing job where most players underperform except at the top percentiles vs. a more evenly distributed performance). There will always be players looking for more challenging gameplay, and you should give them the option of that risk/reward tradeoff. You want to do more damage, then ask for opportunities to earn it. Ask for more difficult gameplay in exchange for more damage, I'm fine with that.

You can't trade-off damage and utility because they're unrelated. The real problem that this thread highlights is the power of raises, and there really should be a hard cap on their uses, even if only on harder difficulty settings for fights. But that's also not an opportunity or excuse to go begging for freebies.

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If you do that then the "easy" jobs WILL be marginated and reduced to being "noob player jobs" because a decent player could bring much more with a high ceiling job. It would be the original Rez Mage meme back all over again (okay we learned the fight now switch job we no longer need it). SE have stated that how difficult a job is will never relate to have a better performance than the others, just having a higher ceiling as a matter of flavour, and thats the reason why between jobs of the same type theres usual a minor difference in total contribution besides when they screw up with a job *cough* Bard*cough*...

SE basically consider personal damage+ support skills(be raid damage buffs or otherwise) as a total contribution of that job, so if you have more support, you have less damage and viceversa.

You can see that on other games like LoL: Lee Sin originally was considered a very high ceiling champion so he was really bad on low levels while being outright broken in high levels of play which meant that he was used everywhere once you reached a certain level of play and was permabanned due to how much it overperformed against other champions. In the end was hit with the nerf bat several times on row and is still a very solid pick if you know how to play with him

Heck you can even see that in FF11 as well where if you had the "wrong" job you had to literally beg to be taken in a party to level due to huge differences in performance compared with the "meta" jobs.

Having X job outperform others once you get good enough because is hard to "git gud" with it is often a surefire recipe to get a balance disaster in your hands

I put forth my suggestion once more: to compromise, make verraise ineligible for dualcast, or make it a 60 second cool down.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I put forth my suggestion once more: to compromise, make verraise ineligible for dualcast, or make it a 60 second cool down.

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Personally i would love for them to get rid of the "RDM can spam rez hur durr" because its a huge resource hog and having something in case your entire grup is terribad is not something nice to have

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

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Yet that's also what's being asked for here. 'RDM/SMN have access to a raise. Either give BLM a raise, or give BLM more damage output irrespective of skill.' I think that's an incredibly bad way of doing things. Players made the same utility vs. damage output argument for WAR in Stormblood, and the result was not enjoyable.

Is it not fair to have one player outperform others once they get 'good enough'? I think that you're always going to see differences in performance come out of player skill. It's a strange misconception that this community specifically has that different jobs shouldn't cater to different skill levels. That doesn't automatically mean that you're not going to be competitive as a 99th percentile player on a more accessible job. It just means that you're going to be a statistically rarer occurrence. It's like bringing a turret into an FPS game. It's a really popular choice in low skill matches where nobody can aim. But once people figure out how to shoot your turret, you have to be more clever if you want to progress into higher skill levels with that playstyle.

No, please don't get rid of DualCast - Rez on RDM. It's one of the few unique things that really sets it apart.

Sure it's a meme, but it always makes me feel confidant I know I can pull a group out of the jaws of defeat and when I actually do I feel like a real Hero. (Even if I don't get any Comms for it)

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

No, please don't get rid of DualCast - Rez on RDM. It's one of the few unique things that really sets it apart.

Sure it's a meme, but it always makes me feel confidant I know I can pull a group out of the jaws of defeat and when I actually do I feel like a real Hero. (Even if I don't get any Comms for it)

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But it's not supposed to be better at White Magic than White Mage. Getting rid of Dualcast Raise or putting it on the 60 second cooldown maintains the job's flavor, and in fact one might argue improves upon it.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

But it's not supposed to be better at White Magic than White Mage. Getting rid of Dualcast Raise or putting it on the 60 second cooldown maintains the job's flavor, and in fact one might argue improves upon it.

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But it's not better than WHM. Otherwise my Verholy would be an AOE Stun.

Dualcasting and the Melee Rotation are RDMs flavor and getting rid of Dualcast + Raise would just take away from what makes it so unique for arbitrary reasons.

RDM is fine the way it is.

Also, I don't see ASTs crying that DNC gives better damage buffs.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

But it's not better than WHM. Otherwise my Verholy would be an AOE Stun.

Dualcasting and the Melee Rotation are RDMs flavor and getting rid of Dualcast + Raise would just take away from what makes it so unique for arbitrary reasons.

RDM is fine the way it is.

Also, I don't see ASTs crying that DNC gives better damage buffs.

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We're not talking about Verholy. We're talking about Verraise. Right now, Verraise is better in nearly every way, shape and form than Raise is due to the Red Mage's ability to dualcast it. Red Mage's flavor, it's lore that people keep arguing over (though admittedly, not you specifically, yours was just a comment I latched onto) is that it can use White Magic, but it isn't as good at it as White Mage.

Dancers flavor and lore has nothing to do with Astrologian, either. Red Mage explicitly uses less potent/useful White Magic than White Mage.

In a vacuum, Red Mage is fine, but Red Mage isn't in a vacuum.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Well that's not exactly true. There are hardcore groups that ask BLMs to play SMN/RDM for prog before switching to BLM, but on the flip side those same groups want RDMs to switch to BLM or SMN afterwards. Or they just outright look for a SMN/BLM combo and leave RDM out entirely. But, again, those are only specific groups looking for specific things. Most groups outside that specific niche are more than happy to welcome a BLM into the fold especially when paired with a raise-caster. I dunno, I just see it as silly for BLM mains to pretend to be victims when it is actually RDM who has been the red-headed stepchild of casters for some time now (especially with embolden being what it is pre-6.0).

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"When paired" being the operative words here. Most statics still follow the double melee paradigm. A single glance at the recruitment discord will show you just how many groups ask BLM players to play RDM/SMN for prog. It isn't simply the hardcore having such a prerequisite. Furthermore, RDM hasn't been the red-headed stepchild for a while. It dwarfs Black Mage static players while frequently pulling ahead of Summoner as the most popular caster. It even made it into the 5.5 speed meta.

BLMs aren't playing the victim. Raise is objectively a massive advantage during prog, regardless of your static's skill level or aspiration. Hence why this discussion comes up, especially in light of the dev team wanting to remove Resurrection. Doing so basically guarantees RDM a slot in a good number of groups when no other role is afforded such luxury. Now I don't necessarily think BLM should be given a Raise. I'd rather they kill off Verraise and Resurrection.

Picking a second melee over a really good Black Mage is just the playerbase being stuck in the days of physical damage debuffs. There's lots of mechanical advantage to having three ranged dps.

That being said, if you're a world prog or week 1 raider, you should be willing to play multiple jobs to fit your team and benefit prog.

If you're not playing at that high level though, then stop worrying about it and tell your group to die less and play what you want.

Easy.

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Originally Posted by ShadowNyx3

Picking a second melee over a really good Black Mage is just the playerbase being stuck in the days of physical damage debuffs. There's lots of mechanical advantage to having three ranged dps.

That being said, if you're a world prog or week 1 raider, you should be willing to play multiple jobs to fit your team and benefit prog.

If you're not playing at that high level though, then stop worrying about it and tell your group to die less and play what you want.

Easy.

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Been very happy running three ranged, especially in presence of a Black Mage. It allows for more options for a group by letting the ranged players move into a second melee position as it is useful to them:

- BLM gets to choose position thats more comfy to cast from
- RDM and DNC get to use melee range skills with less hassle

Also having access to two Addle or Ranged CD is REALLY sweet.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Been very happy running three ranged, especially in presence of a Black Mage. It allows for more options for a group by letting the ranged players move into a second melee position as it is useful to them:

- BLM gets to choose position thats more comfy to cast from
- RDM and DNC get to use melee range skills with less hassle

Also having access to two Addle or Ranged CD is REALLY sweet.

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double phys ranged DPS is absolutely doable, it's what I ended up clearing the tier in. and strictly selfishly, it was great as a monk because it gave me more room around the boss's back, plus I automatically got my favored corner.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

"When paired" being the operative words here. Most statics still follow the double melee paradigm. A single glance at the recruitment discord will show you just how many groups ask BLM players to play RDM/SMN for prog. It isn't simply the hardcore having such a prerequisite. Furthermore, RDM hasn't been the red-headed stepchild for a while. It dwarfs Black Mage static players while frequently pulling ahead of Summoner as the most popular caster. It even made it into the 5.5 speed meta.

BLMs aren't playing the victim. Raise is objectively a massive advantage during prog, regardless of your static's skill level or aspiration. Hence why this discussion comes up, especially in light of the dev team wanting to remove Resurrection. Doing so basically guarantees RDM a slot in a good number of groups when no other role is afforded such luxury. Now I don't necessarily think BLM should be given a Raise. I'd rather they kill off Verraise and Resurrection.

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Actually, my Eden's Promise static requested (but did not require) I played a raise-capable caster for progging. I had the option to BLM but I chose SMN because, despite being objectively worse on SMN than BLM, the raises easily shaved a month off prog time for my static's glacial prog process (3 hours/week).

My TEA static, where I am also BLM, is also requesting I swap. I'm doing fine in the group, we're able to consistently get past Living Liquid now with practice, but the request is coming down as: "We would like res utility pushing forward." Res utility is a serious problem to the balance of the game. It's not in question. BLM has basically been forgotten. The devs keep putting ever taller hats on what is effectively an ancient rotation dating back to ARR that has been retrofitted to work for HW and then barely changed since, and BLM mains are going: "Wow, this is fine, we need more of this!" while refusing to accept the reality that the class isn't keeping up with the direction the game is, and has been, going in.

Honestly, due to Magick Barrier alone, RDM is probably going to be the de facto caster of EW. The class has it all. A 2m tactician mixed with mantra, the ability to raise up to 6 people in a row (lucid dreaming, starting at max MP, an amount of time between 5th and 6th res as Lucid ticks), and with SMN having about 85% freedom of movement, it will probably beat SMN in both personal DPS and raid utility and people squabble over 'lore' in a game where RDMs literally cannot double as a healer because if they could, it would be mandatory in all prog forever.

Considering how BLM has never been one of the neglected jobs (actually quite the opposite compared to the other 2 casters that had quite a lot of messy periods) id say the job is perfectly fine. To put the extreme of saying "RDM can 6 man revive on row" under perfect circunstances and rendered useless later due no not having more MP until lucid dream comes back again is like saying that BLM can "potentially" direct crit their spells during the next 30 seconds and pull far ahead from anyone else.

In any case at most what we have now is that if X job have good or bad aditions to their kit. And even if their kit is good, if they are neutered numbers wise they will end neglected by the community due to SE failing to measure the job properly.

The exact oppposite is what happened with Monk on early ShB: Their kit was garbage, but their overbuffed their potency so much to compensate that it was a no brainer to bring one despite crappy gameplay due to how much they overperformed, and continued until they brought other dps jobs to similar levels which was when the monk player numbers quickly deflated and players went back to jobs with more functional(and fun) kits

On DPS jobs unlike other jobs like Tanks where you can already see if one is gonna be god or bad (unless they overbuff/nerf a lot compared to what we have now), the final adjustments in values can make or break a job

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

. To put the extreme of saying "RDM can 6 man revive on row" under perfect circunstances and rendered useless later due no not having more MP until lucid dream comes back again is like saying that BLM can "potentially" direct crit their spells during the next 30 seconds and pull far ahead from anyone else.

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But no one cares RDM DPS drops down to 0 because they're oom after 6 rez. After 6rez you can probably forget your DPS check anyway so you being oom is definitely not an issue.

What will happen after 6 rez is that your group will be able to practice the next mechanic. That's it. Nothing more.

And that is much more valuable than spilling a few more FireIV while 6 players are dead.

Like, it never happened to you? Both healers died from the same mech, you got a RDM, they're rezzed and you just managed to practice a but further into the fight?

Or 1 healer died and 2 dps... Well you're almost guarantee to not have everyone before the next mech (which are often 8man danse). Sc on the healers, start rezzing one, start rezzing the other, somehow your tank doesnt need any heal and the boss isn't doing any RB... Almost 16s later finally, they're all alive and you're probably oom from spending 7200 mp in 16s ...

But hey, don't worry, your BLM is burning that boss real good. Much better than a RDM doing triple instant rez, lame.

Rather than just homogenizing, I'd rather BLM had some other flexibility utility. Maybe a buff for limited recouping of DPS loss from weakness, scaling to the role of the KOd player. No hard boosts to party damage or overtaking the spare rezzer role.

It's possible the playerbase would overvalue more likely clear runs where the odd KO is risking the DPS checks, over the mid-prog utility of extra raises, even though both are crutches. Still, I don't think just slapping a rez on BLM would be better for balance or really fit the job identity even if you try to dress it up as necromancy.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

But no one cares RDM DPS drops down to 0 because they're oom after 6 rez. After 6rez you can probably forget your DPS check anyway so you being oom is definitely not an issue.

What will happen after 6 rez is that your group will be able to practice the next mechanic. That's it. Nothing more.

And that is much more valuable than spilling a few more FireIV while 6 players are dead.

Like, it never happened to you? Both healers died from the same mech, you got a RDM, they're rezzed and you just managed to practice a but further into the fight?

Or 1 healer died and 2 dps... Well you're almost guarantee to not have everyone before the next mech (which are often 8man danse). Sc on the healers, start rezzing one, start rezzing the other, somehow your tank doesnt need any heal and the boss isn't doing any RB... Almost 16s later finally, they're all alive and you're probably oom from spending 7200 mp in 16s ...

But hey, don't worry, your BLM is burning that boss real good. Much better than a RDM doing triple instant rez, lame.

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Having a 6 man wipe on a mechanic is such a catasthrophic mess that is not worth to keep going if so many people are failing that mechanic (unless you mention an Alliance Raid, but they are generally easy to carry and get carried on those anyways, yes even things like Thunder God Cid pre nerf). Theres a difference between having to ressing a few people due to a failed mechanic and continue to try to learn a bit more and another most of the team failing hard on a certain mechanic and wasting time on future mechanics before getting those deaths lower on that mechanic first.

Following your reasoning a BLM is far better than a RDM to get past the enrage timers, the coin can be flipped to the other side you know? You cant value RDM basing on that your team is going blind or just plain suck. Having more than 2-3 deaths per minute spells disaster already outside those specific cases and honestly getting tired of the Rez Mage monicker already.

Some jobs deal damage some others have utility and you are not seeing me complaining here that the RDM mobility depends on having a previous cast done to proc dual cast meanwhile the other 2 casters, yes even BLM despite their turret meme status, can keep casting while moving if theres a phase that requires to keep moving, and before someone starts pointing that is a dps loss, is still better than having almost no dps at all during those moments besides OGCD or being able to do the melee combo which relies in several factors at the same time

In any case considering that if the SMN rework is a success its very likely that they will lose their raise on the next expansion( they did mention that they almost removed it for EW), so the chances of a BLM getting it are virtually null, and thats fine theres enough homogeneization as it is already

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Actually, my Eden's Promise static requested (but did not require) I played a raise-capable caster for progging. I had the option to BLM but I chose SMN because, despite being objectively worse on SMN than BLM, the raises easily shaved a month off prog time for my static's glacial prog process (3 hours/week).

My TEA static, where I am also BLM, is also requesting I swap. I'm doing fine in the group, we're able to consistently get past Living Liquid now with practice, but the request is coming down as: "We would like res utility pushing forward." Res utility is a serious problem to the balance of the game. It's not in question. BLM has basically been forgotten. The devs keep putting ever taller hats on what is effectively an ancient rotation dating back to ARR that has been retrofitted to work for HW and then barely changed since, and BLM mains are going: "Wow, this is fine, we need more of this!" while refusing to accept the reality that the class isn't keeping up with the direction the game is, and has been, going in.

Honestly, due to Magick Barrier alone, RDM is probably going to be the de facto caster of EW. The class has it all. A 2m tactician mixed with mantra, the ability to raise up to 6 people in a row (lucid dreaming, starting at max MP, an amount of time between 5th and 6th res as Lucid ticks), and with SMN having about 85% freedom of movement, it will probably beat SMN in both personal DPS and raid utility and people squabble over 'lore' in a game where RDMs literally cannot double as a healer because if they could, it would be mandatory in all prog forever.

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this is totally wrong that the red mage has more potential to beat the summoner on the dps because the summoner is mobile, the tax does not apply to the summoner due to the fact that they also have buff the mobility of the red mage in addition to granting him a more consistent burst, a better aoe rotation, and a double mitigation in addition to keeping his ability to chain resurections.

You don't have to look any further with the tip of your nose to be sure that the red mage will never beat the current summoner in dps for the simple reason that he now has the best kit of the 3 casters,
he is therefore already godtier, even if he has a lower dps than the summoner.


People underestimate the mobility of the red mage, with the mana white/black combo buff only granting free mobility spells, gap closer x2 and jump back x2 also granting mobility,

do not forget the passive, a casted spell, the next one is instant.