Instead of cutting Ultimate from 5.5 why not cut bozja?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

To be fair, they could be posting on an alt character or account. I am.

Content which is significantly harder to organize, has no incentive beyond the initial clear and won't last until this expansion's conclusions for that precise reason. And no, this Ultimate is delayed. However, we're losing another since two were originally expected for Endwalker. Unless they release three Ultimates, we're losing content.

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Did they ever say that there was going to be 2 Ultimates in Endwalker or is this just magic 8-ball guessing because that was the plan for the current expansion? We don't know what is going to happen in the future or if they try something new with difficult content (Ultimates themselves are relatively new content), who knows. Second guessing just to be negative doesn't really help anyone right now.

Honest question because I haven't read all 14 pages. Do a large portion of the playerbase actually do Ultimate tier raiding? Judging but I read on the first couple pages, far more people in FFXIV do Ultimate raiding than do Bozja.

Seriously, is that true?

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Originally Posted by Steviejd

Did they ever say that there was going to be 2 Ultimates in Endwalker or is this just magic 8-ball guessing because that was the plan for the current expansion? We don't know what is going to happen in the future or if they try something new with difficult content (Ultimates themselves are relatively new content), who knows. Second guessing just to be negative doesn't really help anyone right now.

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Because that's the precedence they set. We had two in Stormblood and were going to have two in Shadowbringers. It's not exactly a reach to say there would be two for Endwalker just like there is always three raid tiers, three Alliance raids, one EX Primal each patch and etc. There is zero indication whatsoever they were going to deviant from releasing two Ultimates. It isn't second guessing, but following their prior outline. If you haven't noticed, this game is incredibly predictable with its content releases.

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Originally Posted by MPK

Bozja content is straight up garbage, not even the casual players enjoy it.

Why even make a savage version of a 24 man raid that was aimed at casual players?!

I want my money back SE. I only stay subbed this tier so I can get BiS for ultimate!

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Well, this is a whole new level of whining.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Because that's the precedence they set. We had two in Stormblood and were going to have two in Shadowbringers. It's not exactly a reach to say there would be two for Endwalker just like there is always three raid tiers, three Alliance raids, one EX Primal each patch and etc. There is zero indication whatsoever they were going to deviant from releasing two Ultimates. It isn't second guessing, but following their prior outline. If you haven't noticed, this game is incredibly predictable with its content releases.

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Did the previous expansions have literal world-changing pandemics that halted development?

I'm assuming that's what's causing them to have to cut this content.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Because that's the precedence they set. We had two in Stormblood and were going to have two in Shadowbringers. It's not exactly a reach to say there would be two for Endwalker just like there is always three raid tiers, three Alliance raids, one EX Primal each patch and etc. There is zero indication whatsoever they were going to deviant from releasing two Ultimates. It isn't second guessing, but following their prior outline. If you haven't noticed, this game is incredibly predictable with its content releases.

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If it's so predictable where were the Ultimates for Heavensward? It still is second guessing because they have changed content structures before, just not in a wildly different way. Maybe they try some new things with 6.x due to it starting a new arc of the story, maybe they don't even release the Ultimate that they were designing and they do something else with it and people get even more angry, who knows?

Because the ultimate designer and Bozja designer aren’t the same person I’d guess

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Originally Posted by Lium

Honest question because I haven't read all 14 pages. Do a large portion of the playerbase actually do Ultimate tier raiding? Judging but I read on the first couple pages, far more people in FFXIV do Ultimate raiding than do Bozja.

Seriously, is that true?

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Wouldn't be surprised. Legend titles aren't even that rare.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Honest question because I haven't read all 14 pages. Do a large portion of the playerbase actually do Ultimate tier raiding? Judging but I read on the first couple pages, far more people in FFXIV do Ultimate raiding than do Bozja.

Seriously, is that true?

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The amount of players who do Ultimate is a tiny fraction of those who do Bozja, it's not even remotely close. The complainers about Ultimate are just more vocal, but if the case was more did Ultimate, it would be prioritized much more. As it is, it is only made because it's so low manpower to do, using old assets and only really needing minor work, though testing and balancing is hard in current conditions.

This is more of a Covid thing then a developers issue, they wanted to keep their people safe during the pandemic which lead to delay in content and making some tough cuts. Yes ultimate is very important for the raiding community but things happen, yes SHb has been kind of lacking but that's more so a pandemic issue which is out of their control. Just chill and be excited for 6.0 or simply stop playing this game specifically until they produce content you like btw bozja is awful lol but I digress

Actually true. I usually see atleast one legend per expert rl. With their BK crown. I temple in fear at the prospect of how bad a run it will be if o get more than 1 tho..dare not think about it.

I really like Bozja. :D

I've personally run into more carried Legends than actual ones. Also, the dps checks in some are completely negligible now. The majority of people with Legend titles wouldn't be clearing the new one anyway.

It’s bad communication to be the least. The raid community HAVE waited — 5.3 got delayed and DSW Ultimate was pushed from 5.3 to 5.5.
They should’ve announced that hey were canceling DSW Ultimate instead of delaying it to 5.5. Or at least announce it along with 5.4, so people don’t have to come back just to get prepared for the new ultimate, only to be told they are not getting it after 9 weeks.

And just curious,
How many % of the player base get Master Caster title?
How many % actively participate in Ishgard Restoration ranking? (I got my saint title and by the end score i’d say less than 15 people in my server people seriously compete in fishing till the end)
How many % care enough to get the 500k score achievement?
How many % get the highest score achievement in ocean fishing?
How many % level up BLU and get their morbol mount?
How many % actively participate in PVP?

Still remembered back in SB only 5% of people capped their level in Eureka. I doubt you will find a lot more people who clear this 48 man savage than those who clear a ultimate.

The thing is if you take a single piece of content out, a good chance is that not that many people actively participate in it. (to me it’s easier to find an ultimate static than to find a blu savage party).
so let’s stop calling niche content and talk as if a certain community of this game doesnt matter. ( yes that includes this post calling Bozja garbage and dev shouldnt invest time in it )

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Originally Posted by Rhus

Because the ultimate designer and Bozja designer aren’t the same person I’d guess

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Eh, I'm sure there's at least more than 1 guy working on Bozja, unlike the ultimates.
Poor guy has been working all alone for a year and somehow covid is still an excuse for the delay.

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Originally Posted by Rhus

Actually true. I usually see atleast one legend per expert rl. With their BK crown. I temple in fear at the prospect of how bad a run it will be if o get more than 1 tho..dare not think about it.

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I highly doubt that lol. You don't seem to exactly be setting the world on fire yourself.

I love the excuses in this thread. Gentlemen if it were for the majority of players this game would have to eliminate pvp, savage, extreme and Ultimate and turn it into a Habbo Hotel.

Subscribers to the game are increasing and the game development team remains just as small.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

Subscribers to the game are increasing and the game development team remains just as small.

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This is something I never understood. You'd think they would hire more hands instead of constantly shuffling people OFF the project. Especially when this is a live service game and they keep speaking of time crunch.

That being said, the original post was saying to delete content designed for the casual playerbase (majority) for those that do savage and above (minority). It's predictable which one would be cut, given the choice.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

This is something I never understood. You'd think they would hire more hands instead of constantly shuffling people OFF the project. Especially when this is a live service game and they keep speaking of time crunch.

That being said, the original post was saying to delete content designed for the casual playerbase (majority) for those that do savage and above (minority). It's predictable which one would be cut, given the choice.

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There is always a fun anecdote from World of Warcraft in this regard, they once hired a ton of new people and began to train them to make an upcoming expansion: said expansion was the most content sparse one, Warlords of Draenor. Turns out training people up takes time and many just couldn't adapt to the older systems the game ran on in a timely manner.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

This is something I never understood. You'd think they would hire more hands instead of constantly shuffling people OFF the project. Especially when this is a live service game and they keep speaking of time crunch.

That being said, the original post was saying to delete content designed for the casual playerbase (majority) for those that do savage and above (minority). It's predictable which one would be cut, given the choice.

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Trying to teach newbies about the shortcuts and the spaghetti coding of 2.0 probably is the main reason why they dont hire many new people at once. Theres probably a bunch of little shortcuts or "explots" they use in the coding to do certain things that would take too long to teach new guys and code is fragile.

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Originally Posted by Steviejd

If it's so predictable where were the Ultimates for Heavensward? It still is second guessing because they have changed content structures before, just not in a wildly different way. Maybe they try some new things with 6.x due to it starting a new arc of the story, maybe they don't even release the Ultimate that they were designing and they do something else with it and people get even more angry, who knows?

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Savage raids were much harder back in HW that some consider A8s as the first unofficial ultimate. Gordias shattered so many statics from Faust to Living liquid. ARR coils and HW savage raids were the testing field for raid difficulty. That's why Gordias was overtuned that they had to nerf it. It's in SB that we got the official name for such high difficulty. Yoshi P also did promise people two ultimate fights per expansion in an interview. Their plan was to have one every odd numbered patch, but people said it was too rough, so they settled on two per expansion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._bad_news_for/

Man you are all mad for no reason. The reason they created bozja and cut out the ultimate was because ultimate was too hard for everyone. So they created Bozja savage too lessen the burden. It's not like a lot of you guys cleared ultimate Lol.

Well, it's disappointing. Ultimate raiders get a high like no either from chasing those clears. I totally understand and sympathize. But there was a pandemic and it's content for like 5% or less of the playerbase. It's excusable to push it back.

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Originally Posted by Xeronia

There is always a fun anecdote from World of Warcraft in this regard, they once hired a ton of new people and began to train them to make an upcoming expansion: said expansion was the most content sparse one, Warlords of Draenor. Turns out training people up takes time and many just couldn't adapt to the older systems the game ran on in a timely manner.

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Our serious problems in Draenor were not due to having new people, they were due to people who were already in the development of the game and were in charge of many decisions of the same.

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Originally Posted by PlasmaHanDoku

Man you are all mad for no reason. The reason they created bozja and cut out the ultimate was because ultimate was too hard for everyone. So they created Bozja savage too lessen the burden. It's not like a lot of you guys cleared ultimate Lol.

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That something does not affect me does not mean that it is right, in the same way that the %(rates) of Genshin Impact does not affect me, I know they are shit

I’d suggest instead of saying something shouldnt be developed. Why dont we start a petition thread like “show your support for 3 ultimates in EW” or “show your support to DSW released in 5.5”?

Really this is a player vs SE thing. I dont see the reason that we turn it into player bs player situation.

Just chiming in to say that to call the raiding scene disappointed in this outcome would be an understatement. You won't hear from most of them since they don't come here, but I pass by from time to time.

Among the people I'm friends with who raid, and the more endgame focused discord servers, it has basically cratered hype for the expansion. Some of this can be attributed to covid wrecking havoc, but it's a shame that it has come to this. Shadowbringers had the strongest conceivable start an expansion could have and set a new high water mark for the series, but the mood I see now could not be more different.

If it were just a matter of raw player numbers and majority rule, you could similarly justify axing savage, extremes, everything that isn't the MSQ basically. But you wouldn't, because raiding is marquee content and one of the pillars that holds this game up.

I also want to remind everyone that the only reason it was ultimate that got cut and not something else was entirely down to its position in the expansion roadmap, not because ultimate is logically the thing you want to cut first or something. If we had the second ultimate in 5.3 instead of 5.5 like some people would prefer, then it would've been over by now and maybe it would've been Bozja or something else on the chopping block.

This is really more an issue of scheduling and luck, not certain types of content being better or more worthy than the other. The seeds for this outcome were planted when they decided to put ultimate in the 1st and 3rd tiers, instead of the 1st and 2nd - and even further back when they decided to cut the number of ultimates per expansion from 3 to 2.

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Originally Posted by PlasmaHanDoku

Man you are all mad for no reason. The reason they created bozja and cut out the ultimate was because ultimate was too hard for everyone. So they created Bozja savage too lessen the burden. It's not like a lot of you guys cleared ultimate Lol.

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And it's not like a lot of you guys clear the casual content you are given, must be difficult leaving Limsa and Uldah I guess.
https://i.imgur.com/W4Bjj9K.png

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Originally Posted by Renka777

They better bring 2 other ultimates in endwalker or else they'll get the shitstorm they deserve.
I'll wait & see ,so i much prefer remaining very calm for now but IF there's no ultimate in 6.3,man it'll be time to unleach the full rage and i know that i'll be far from alone doing it.

Respect the raiders.

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Posts like this makes me want them to just have 2 Ultimates in EW, maybe even one. It would actually be an eye opener to see the actual result rather than just reading about it on the internet.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

And that goes back to my initial point. I lose my house and come back months later only to find every residental district occupied, leaving me with nothing.

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You said that you see no reason to stay subbed anymore, so this shouldn't apply to you. But if it does, then you have to make a decision whether keeping a house in a game that you otherwise see no reason to stay subbed is worth it. If you're not sure that it is worth it, then it's probably better to leave it to those people who will gladly stay subbed.

Either way, it's a unique case that doesn't show that SE is forcing anyone to stay subbed. There's a reason behind this and people need to decide what they're actually getting for their sub.

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Weeklies require an active subscription though. I can see your point but considering how the time table works if I was, say unsubscribed for 3 months and a new piece of Savage content was released, it means I'd spend more time catching up on that front. Not to mention by that time PUG groups have already progressed and I'd have to rely on finding a group tailored to my needs instead. All of that aside though, they did introduce crafted gear with a good enough item level, but you need to have your crafters maxed out for that.

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If you want to be caught up to a certain content, then you do what you need to do, or just get a full set of HQ pentamelded gear and clear Savage in week 1 of release if you're that skilled.

Otherwise, you can still clear Savage in the next expansion unsynced with an easier gear grind if you want.

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Going back to the topic at hand: Bozja is fine in my opinion. I don't see the problem beyond CLL, which was screwed up. In a perfect world we would get all content but that's not the case anymore. Still, now I will probably have no incentive to subscribe for longer periods of time, which is a shame, and that goes back to me lamenting how SHB was lackluster in a few aspects. All hopes are placed on 6.0, and I genuinely hope they will find their much needed balance.

Edit: Should have quoted you, but I'm still fairly new to these forums. :P

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Then unsub, and if you don't want to return, that's up to you. There are over 20 million accounts made and not all of them are currently subbed now, so obviously people have chosen to stop playing and yet FFXIV continues on to another expansion until/unless there are not enough people subscribing/paying.

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

And it's not like a lot of you guys clear the casual content you are given, must be difficult leaving Limsa and Uldah I guess.
https://i.imgur.com/W4Bjj9K.png

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More like, it's difficult staying in Ishgard and Diadem 24/7 grinding the same thing nonstop lmao

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

And it's not like a lot of you guys clear the casual content you are given, must be difficult leaving Limsa and Uldah I guess.
https://i.imgur.com/W4Bjj9K.png

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Hello Manchild, maybe it's just "difficult" to grind ones brain out by doing the same crap over and over and over and over and ove and over and over.

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

And it's not like a lot of you guys clear the casual content you are given, must be difficult leaving Limsa and Uldah I guess.
https://i.imgur.com/W4Bjj9K.png

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It's almost like most people, at least in NA/EU, play for reasons other than crafting.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

You fail to understand my reasoning. Point in case is if you think your house is valueable, and you refuse to pay for a subscription guess what? You are screwed. Pay up or don't, not to mention how SE hasn't found ways to fix the housing problem and the lack of abundance for available housing. I refuse to give someone else my plot, it's mine and it should be mine simple as that. I shouldn't have to dish out 13 Euro just to keep my house.

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The house doesn't actually belong to you. Your character may be listed as the owner for game purposes but you don't truly own it. It is owned by Square Enix. along with everything else in the game. You're allowed continued use of it at their discretion and contingent on your compliance with their terms and conditions. Part of those terms and conditions include maintaining an active subscription so you can enter the house at least once every 45 days.

If it's not worth that 13 Euros a month to you, why do you want to keep it so badly? You would be smarter to give it up so you're not burdened with the recurring expense.

Way more people do Bozja than Ultimate. We already get dictated by raiders who every job is balanced even though it only matters in a fraction of the content.

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Originally Posted by Renka777

Respect the raiders.

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Like raiders respected AST and their old cards? lol No.

Raiders make the game more boring for all, one meta at a time. And the majority is not allowed to have anything interesting 'cause meta and parsing.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

I don't honestly care about in-game property but they are staying stagnant on this concept and refuse to adapt to better ideas.

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Except you do care or you wouldn't say

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Originally Posted by Shin96

I refuse to give someone else my plot, it's mine and it should be mine simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Like raiders respected AST and their old cards? lol No.

Raiders make the game more boring for all, one meta at a time. And the majority is not allowed to have anything interesting 'cause meta and parsing.

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Most raiders I know actually misses the utility of the old cards. It's usually the casual/midtier that complained about "only aoe balance matters" and "it's too complex"

You're throwing a lot of accusations around without a lot of history to back up. Especially since the history of job changes has been to make jobs more accessible to casual players. (Not a bad thing, imho. I just have a lot of issue with how they go about it.)

I'll say:

Absolutely sucks for the raiding population that were looking forward to it, I get that they'd be pissed off over a piece of content they've been looking forward to since pre-5.3 being pushed back to the first major update of a new expansion.

But if it genuinely came down to "DR or Ultimate" I'm sort of on the side of "DR". More people'll see it, more people'll do it in game and it provides heavy holdover content for more people who have interest in doing it.

I'm biased in that I have more interest in DR currently, and haven't tried to tryout and find time to do the Ultimate fights in the game. But I do feel DR has more reach in the playerbase, and at least, requires much less to get into by comparison.

Not going to pretend like I understand the behind the scenes discussions/resources/time frames the XIV team has. But if the devs are saying they lack the time to finish it in the expected timeframe, in part due to the pandemic going on (even if the decision to push it to 5.5 was a pre-pandemic decision -- life comes at you fast) then so be it.

If SE could've provided more resources to smooth this over better, then they should have. But if they did and this was the best case scenario with what's going on, it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Like raiders respected AST and their old cards? lol No.

Raiders make the game more boring for all, one meta at a time. And the majority is not allowed to have anything interesting 'cause meta and parsing.

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Most of the homogenization and otherwise dumbing down of jobs has actually been in an effort to make the game more accessible and require less effort from casual players.

See the remove of tank stance, removal of cleric stance, simplification of healer dps kits, dumbing down of most jobs rotations etc.

The "ooga booga raider bad" mentality gets really old.

To be honest, I'm glad they didn't wasted much resources on Ultimate which most of the players never will experience anyway. Boss fights in this game are simply boring (no matter which difficulty) and take way to long for the little rewards they give. How long usually a Savage Boss takes? 15min? 20min? Sounds like fun lets do Ultimate and beat the same Boss in 30min. for shity loot.

Seriously if i want fun and challenging long Boss fights i play something like Monster Hunter or another MMO.

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Originally Posted by Missbone

To be honest, I'm glad they didn't wasted much resources on Ultimate which most of the players never will experience anyway. Boss fights in this game are simply boring (no matter which difficulty) and take way to long for the little rewards they give. How long usually a Savage Boss takes? 15min? 20min? Sounds like fun lets do Ultimate and beat the same Boss in 30min. for shity loot.

Seriously if i want fun and challenging long Boss fights i play something like Monster Hunter or another MMO.

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>for shity loot
>play something like Monster Hunter
Oh boi

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Originally Posted by Missbone

To be honest, I'm glad they didn't wasted much resources on Ultimate which most of the players never will experience anyway. Boss fights in this game are simply boring (no matter which difficulty) and take way to long for the little rewards they give. How long usually a Savage Boss takes? 15min? 20min? Sounds like fun lets do Ultimate and beat the same Boss in 30min. for shity loot.

Seriously if i want fun and challenging long Boss fights i play something like Monster Hunter or another MMO.

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blegh.. casuals...