[dev1357] The Armoire

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Originally Posted by Jinko

210 I think is the maximum you can upgrade your bank to. (this isn't including personal inventory which is 120 maximum I think) = 330

But you can use the guild bank also if you have permission.

In 2.0 we will be losing 75 inventory slots. 5 bags at 25 inventory slots each.

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Interesting.... So at the moment, we have 500 inventory (200 person, 150 x2 retainer) which means WoW has 66% of the personal inventory space FFXIV has (currently). Of course, without knowing more about the way the gear is stored server-side, it could be comparing apples to oranges. I do find it quite fascinating that FFXIV has 51% more personal space than WoW, but it's still a major point of contention. It goes to show that the real argument shouldn't be about storage, but what is going in it. Seems to me that this data says FFXIV needs a lot of work in the itemization department, rather than the storage department.

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Originally Posted by Shika

The only thing I hope they revise is: "Item condition must be 100%" :(

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This alone ruined any hype or delight I had for the chest. It's appreciated and all but, much less now.

This item condition shit does nothing but ruin this game right now. I honestly feel like it should just be stripped from the game until 2.0 when they can figure out how to not make it a pain in the ass time sink / bother someone else mechanic, and just a gil-sink like it's supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by Shika

The only thing I hope they revise is: "Item condition must be 100%" :(

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Agree, because I cannot see the rhyme or reason for that. I shouldnt have to have things in perfect condition just to store them. Its really just an unnecessary inconvenience, especially when npcs cannot repair items to perfect condition. If someone can explain what the point is, i'd be happy to hear it, but until then this has stupid written all over it lol. I mean seriously...why?

To prevent abuse:
Store item at 50% condition.
Retrieve item at 100% condition.

If this could be done with AF it would be a very big (unfair) advantage to anyone who uses AF (since it seems to damage so easily).


For event items, I think most/all can be repaired by someone who is level 1. We are all level 1 the moment we equip an item. A lot of our stuff is Goldsmithing, so equip a level 1 goldsmith tool (availble at the man next to the innkeeper), spend a few minutes going through your items and clicking repair. Then done. I don't think that's a huge disadvantage.

As for the question regarding spiritbonding being lost, and some players not liking that. There is no real disadvantage of this, aside from the fact that you can no longer see the spinning swirly thing that showed you used the item a lot.... it is pretty...

At the end of the day, the Armoire is:
1) A fourth place to store stuff (allowing us to sort out our items in different locations for easier searching).
2) 35 inventory spots to store all those AFs that people were collecting
3) Unlimited inventory spots for all our mementos we gathered from the lovely events (Reindeer suits, easter egg rings, hats, etc.)

This is, in every way, a good thing.

But like most good things, it's not absolutely perfectly for every single person in existance and their ideal dream solution.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

To prevent abuse:
Store item at 50% condition.
Retrieve item at 100% condition.

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Right, because it makes sense to program it that way... oh wait. It's just the engine again, or them using the engine as an excuse for an half-assed implementation.

I don't care for gear having to be 100% durability . . . there should be no durability restriction.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

To prevent abuse:
Store item at 50% condition.
Retrieve item at 100% condition.

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Lol why in god's name would they make a storage that restored item condition to 100%? Retainers don't do that, why would armoires be coded in such a way? Wait, you know what...I probably know the answer to this lol. Coding has been a major problem due to Tanaka's use of a crap engine. Anyway now I understand, thank you.

Seriously, I think some ideas shouldn't even bother to be implemented until they can be done properly without server/coding/engine limitations. Auto-repair armoire is just ridiculous lol..just how bad is this engine they're using? What was Tanaka smoking?

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Lol why in god's name would they make a storage that restored item condition to 100%? Retainers don't do that, why would armoires be coded in such a way? Wait, you know what...I probably know the answer to this lol. Coding has been a major problem due to Tanaka's use of a crap engine. Anyway now I understand, thank you.

Seriously, I think some ideas shouldn't even bother to be implemented until they can be done properly without server/coding/engine limitations. Auto-repair armoire is just ridiculous lol..just how bad is this engine they're using? What was Tanaka smoking?

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Allow me to answer as delicately as I can.

Sufficient number of shortcommings and areas of improvement were observed in the version that Tanaka was implementing, that it was deemed to be in the best interest of all if an entirely new system/engine/etc were to be re-implemented.

However, due to the amount of time this would take, they felt it best to offer 'something' rather than 'nothing' while we wait.

This 'something' is much better than 'nothing' and if the only caveat is I need to use a level 1 job for a few minutes to repair all my event items before I store them forever, then that is something I can live with ^.^

Equipment storage is a blessing.

On a side note, why people (in general) are bitching about repair and gear condition. Repairing is so easy and costs almost nothing, especially for event items which (most of the times) only require level 1 of craft to repair. Nowadays there are gazillions of crafters. Even if your friend cannot repair your stuff, a stranger can. To repair the "seeking repair" items are now so damn easy. Now you can even turn on seek repair for stuff you're wearing. Yet, people are still complaining about it. What? LOL! Even using my gear and weapon so heavily, I rarely have to repair them more than once a week. (Well, maybe except Ifrit weapon which can go from 100% to 0% in just one day if you hoard trains of mobs and whack them all at the same time a lot.) What's the big deal? It just seems so lazy and pampered to bitch about repairing or seeking repair.

Moreover, as a crafter, I can get 100 or even 300 exp for free when I repair people's stuff. So this is yummy free exp, I like it. DMs are easy to find, but if you don't have one, it's sold for cheap at NPCs located at convenient locations everywhere. As for DM4 and DM5 which are quite pricey, we get them for free from so many sources. Heck, I used to sell my DM5 to NPC because I got too many of them off Ifrit.

They simplified/improved repair system SOOO MUCH, yet people still want more (or I should say "want none"). /meh

lol what's the point of resetting spirit bond on untradable / unsellable equipment? Majority if not all (all my U/U gear at least) can't even be converted into materia. Unless SE plans to allow converting of most or all U/U with 1.22 like they are with primal drops and such?

They have the repair condition to save on memory. With all being a 100% repair to be placed, it is a simple 0 or 1 (on or off) flag. That take like no memory. but you have have the durability it takes (1100100=100) so seven times the memory. Then you take into the account this is for every item for every character. The space for saving data is not infinite, and more variables they save the more stable the data base is. Be happy you are getting more room to save items and they are trying to keep the database more stable.

Thank you for trying to explain the reality of the situation. Hopefully everyone can appreciate this.

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Originally Posted by Klive

They have the repair condition to save on memory. With all being a 100% repair to be placed, it is a simple 0 or 1 (on or off) flag. That take like no memory. but you have have the durability it takes (1100100=100) so seven times the memory. Then you take into the account this is for every item for every character. The space for saving data is not infinite

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mh. Let's look at this example

- item id: 32 bit uint (room for 4,294,967,295 unique items)
- spiritbind status: 8 bit unsigned short (values from 0 to 255)
- repair condition: another 8 bit unsigned short

makes a total of 48bit per item. We have about what, 100 items currently storable in the armoire?
That means it makes 480bit, or 60byte of additional data per character.

If we assume we have about 200 000 players (which we don't), we have ... 12 000 000 byte of additional storage.
That's 11 718kbyte. Which is 11.4 Mbyte of additional space used for the ENTIRE population

tl;dr: space is definitely not an issue.

Why is it easier to complain about server storage than it is to just repair a level 1 item?

Y'all just crying for the sake of crying.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

mh. Let's look at this example

- item id: 32 bit uint (room for 4,294,967,295 unique items)
- spiritbind status: 8 bit unsigned short (values from 0 to 255)
- repair condition: another 8 bit unsigned short

makes a total of 48bit per item. We have about what, 100 items currently storable in the armoire?
That means it makes 480bit, or 60byte of additional data per character.

If we assume we have about 200 000 players (which we don't), we have ... 12 000 000 byte of additional storage.
That's 11 718kbyte. Which is 11.4 Mbyte of additional space used for the ENTIRE population

tl;dr: space is definitely not an issue.

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*sigh*

You leave out many of the important things, it is sad. I hope people who read this can try to understand that SE probably hires people who actually have some experience with databases and storage... should I mention a few of the things you left out?

-- Journaling
-- Indexing
-- Backup
-- Memory utilizing
-- File Cluster Size
-- Failover
-- Distributed/Simultaneous access overhead

Should we discuss performance? Forward compatibility?

I implore everyone: Unless you've seen the code, don't comment on the code.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Why is it easier to complain about server storage than it is to just repair a level 1 item?

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That's called thinking ahead. Everything SE does atm is extremely convoluted and backwards. It's one thing if it's their current engine stopping them from implementing it correctly (even if it's still beyond me how this engine made it through the QC process if it's that terrible), but if they will continue to implement new things this way in 2.0, it's going to end the way 1.x ended.

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Y'all just crying for the sake of crying.

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you crying about people crying for the sake of crying doesn't reduce the amount of crying, don't you think?

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

*sigh*

You leave out many of the important things, it is sad. I hope people who read this can try to understand that SE probably hires people who actually have some experience with databases and storage... should I mention a few of the things you left out?

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Oh, really. Didn't see it so far.

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-- Journaling
-- Indexing
-- Backup
-- Memory utilizing
-- File Cluster Size
-- Failover
-- Distributed/Simultaneous access overhead

Should we discuss performance? Forward compatibility?

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And that adds gigabytes of additional data? I am counting with a non-existant population of 200k, ffxiv won't reach that in near future, nor will the amount of items allowed to be stored explode exponentially. I'd say there is enough room in my calculation to offset things I didn't mentioned.

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I implore everyone: Unless you've seen the code, don't comment on the code.

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Are you implying you saw it?

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

That's called thinking ahead. Everything SE does atm is extremely convoluted and backwards. It's one thing if it's their current engine stopping them from implementing it correctly (even if it's still beyond me how this engine made it through the QC process if it's that terrible), but if they will continue to implement new things this way in 2.0, it's going to end the way 1.x ended.

you crying about people crying for the sake of crying doesn't reduce the amount of crying, don't you think?

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Well, do everyone a favor and show Square-Enix how it's done with your game. Being an expert in the field, I'm sure it'll take you no time!

And I'm not crying, but thanks for assuming so~! I can't wait for this addition, I just can't for the life of me understand how butthurt everyone is getting over something so minor.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Well, do everyone a favor and show Square-Enix how it's done with your game. Being an expert in the field, I'm sure it'll take you no time!

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*claps* Been waiting for that one! I don't have to be an expert in the field to see SE failing with ffxiv v1.0 On the other hand, you have to be a white knight to pretend they didn't.

They are improving the game, that's right, but they are still implementing new things in a convoluted way. Now answer me this: why would someone suffer themselves through a convoluted game that does everything to encumber your gameplay if most other games give you a much hassle-free gaming environment?

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Are you implying you saw it?

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I'm not commenting on the code little Taru ^.^

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

I'm not commenting on the code little Taru ^.^

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You do by adding things I didn't include in my calculation, nee-chan ^.~

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

You do by adding things I didn't include in my calculation, nee-chan ^.~

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No little taru, I am only including things that need to be taken into consideration if we are to having a generic discussion on how information should be stored. Also the 'Don't comment on the code' was not meant specifically for you, but to the many people here who seem to think they know what's wrong and how to fix/implement it ^.^;

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

*claps* Been waiting for that one! I don't have to be an expert in the field to see SE failing with ffxiv v1.0 On the other hand, you have to be a white knight to pretend they didn't.

They are improving the game, that's right, but they are still implementing new things in a convoluted way. Now answer me this: why would someone suffer themselves through a convoluted game that does everything to encumber your gameplay if most other games give you a much hassle-free gaming environment?

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You think storing items is gameplay?

Yes, I agree. Final Fantasy XIV was awful at launch. Every single patch that has come out has made the game drastically better, aside from the recent Ul'dah Inn nonsense (fix it already SE...). I don't see what the awful launch has to do with this subject though. The current servers and game engine are going away with Version 2, so maybe this is the best they can deal with on the current one? I don't know, I don't have any prior knowledge to the state of their game engine and how it handles code for stuff like this. I can tell you that when it has trouble loading player models, it's not optimal in the slightest.

For the time being, I'm going to appreciate something that's being added as a way to help players empty out their inventories with the insane amounts of event gear they keep throwing at us. If it involves repairing something ONCE that I probably won't use again, then so be it. You can always stick it to the man by not doing so, thus keeping stuff in your inventory.

And hey, you never know...with all the complaints on the subject, they may just change it to where anything can be stored, similar to how server transfers worked! Either way, I'm psyched to get a storage system finally, something we've needed since September 2010.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

You think storing items is gameplay?

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It is part of gameplay, you are getting items from playing the game, and you want to store them somewhere. Now, in most games you just go to your big, shared storage and drop things there without having to think about repair conditions, spiritbond or if you are allowed to store an item in that storage at all. In ffxiv, you have to! Why? Why does SE have to do everything differently? Just for the sake of being different?

Same goes for trading items, while some items are untradable and it's understandable why they are, why for the love of the Twelve can't we just trade items without having to run across uldah to find someone to repair it to 100% first? It doesn't make sense at all and all it does is annoy people. The annoyance accumulates over time and what SE gets is people getting butthurt over "little" things.

You say we should appreciate the fact they are adding things to make life a bit easier for us, and I'd agree, but by now I my only wish is for them to either add something decently or not add it until the great engine of 2.0 they are promising us allows them to.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

No little taru, I am only including things that need to be taken into consideration if we are to having a generic discussion on how information should be stored.

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Well, my post wasn't meant to include everything anyway. Fact is, even with the overhead of handling and storing the data, it won't add that much space they have to use, so "engine limitations" is more likely to be the cause for that silly restriction.

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Also the 'Don't comment on the code' was not meant specifically for you, but to the many people here who seem to think they know what's wrong and how to fix/implement it ^.^;

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It did sound like it though.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Why is it easier to complain about server storage than it is to just repair a level 1 item?

Y'all just crying for the sake of crying.

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The tears of entitlement are strong on these forums.

Well I would say that it isn't necessarily memory that is holding the Armoire back. Nor is it likely a lack of talented programmers.

We've seen Yoshi talk a lot about the "cost" of implementing features, and this includes all factors, not just money. So if it would take too much TIME to code the system to store Spiritbond, condition and etc., KNOWING FULL WELL that they have a newly developed client-server-database structure coming relatively soon (2.0), then they are not going to invest the "cost" in this feature now.

And anyone who wants to quote this and say "It is just a few lines of code", please first supply your relevant professional credentials. Personally I have dabbled in C++ (Tetris, Breakout), and also done a fair shake of Python/C#/VBA in a business capacity. I'm also quite familiar with SQL and relational databases in many forms. I comprehend HTML and have just an inkling of knowledge towards PHP and web-based design. If you are like me, then you certainly know how these kinds of "simple" projects can spiral out and grow much larger than you ever anticipated. Especially for a high-profile production scenario such as a AAA subscription-based MMO.

Personally I can't even begin to imagine the level of complexity that goes into a beast of a code base such as this, not to mention the layers upon layers of integrity checks and etc. I am willing to bet that many of you who are wanting to comment on SE's programming are like me, intermediate at best, and probably not qualified to speak on the matter if you really think about it. :)

In the end, I think the Armoire is much like Inn rooms. At least they are letting us play with the groundwork of the system. There will be much more to come with storage and housing, but at least this way we get SOMETHING, instead of waiting for months for a true, completed product...That's just my opinion.

Any chance we can get a full list of the items (pre-1.22) that qualify to go into the armoire?

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Any chance we can get a full list of the items (pre-1.22) that qualify to go into the armoire?

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All items you can only get once and then never again

So easter helms dont count,? We were able to get most of those a 2nd time this year, and they also mentioned seasonal gear. This kind of wiggle-room makes me interested more in the specifics.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

So easter helms dont count,? We were able to get most of those a 2nd time this year, and they also mentioned seasonal gear. This kind of wiggle-room makes me interested more in the specifics.

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the egg hats count, there event items.