Next new job better be heals

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

I was hoping either RDM or BLU would be the caster tank back in the day. (depending on how they handled it of course) But I doubt SE would ever make one. Instead we have PLD becoming a more "Spell Blade" style tank, and thats probably SEs idea for a melee mage, so I doubt we'll ever see one.

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I was really betting on a blu caster tank. Ugh the missed opportunities.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

It will be Geomancer, theyve been setting it up so hard in the Astro Story line it cant be anything other than that.

If it's not, they'll likely pull from FFT:A2, as every job weve ever gotten has been a Tactics based Job.

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But but... Geomancy comes from the Tengu in 14 lore. Ganen wasn't known as a benevolent man healing his way across Yanxia.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

I was really betting on a blu caster tank. Ugh the missed opportunities.

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There's a lot of stories we don't hear, when it comes to which jobs are picked, and how they became what they did. Such as SMN was actually meant to be a completely different class, something akin to a Necromancer, but Yoshida decided to reskin the job as SMN, and thats why it was a DoT focused class in 2.0. Plus the whole "Linkshells will be allowed to summon primals in the open world, but we'll limit it to one LS per server, due to how broken it would be." I feel this influenced a need to implement SMN somehow, since this plan was clearly abandoned. But based on some of the stories we did hear, they usually change a lot about a job, all the way up until release. (In the example of BLU, it was changed into a Limited job at the very last minute. It was intended as a real job, But this wasnt based on interviews, but this info comes from the leaker.)

From what we know;
BLU was intended to be a real job.
BLU was intended to be released for Stormblood, along side SAM and RDM.
BLU was taking more time to finish.
When the leaker leaked BLUs role, much later into stormbloods lifespan, it was planned to be a melee support DPS (stating it would be more akin to NIN, where NIN was a melee support)
RDM is the 1st DPS job in the game, where they dont have to deal with a timer ticking down. IF they were to stop attacking, and instead heal, they would still be at the same place in black/white mana.
ShB brought about the simplification of Healers and Tanks.

So where am I going with all this?
I think SE intended for SAM to be the DPS, RDM to be the healer, and BLU to be the tank. (in early concepts.) We already knew yoshida didnt want a tank SAM, when he took that title away from SAM, and gave it to DRK. He also mentioned making it a DPS w/o armor, wanting to call it a Ronin, but knew the players wanted "Samurai", not "Ronin". (Probably based on how ppl reacted to THF being renamed Rogue)
Maybe SE was literal in wanting to balance healers and tanks, and changed their mind on both. Maybe RDMs playstyle looked too interesting for a DPS playstyle. Im inclined to assume the former. (Its also possible they saw the lack of ranged DPS options, and that either contributed to the decision, or is the primary one, who knows) If the former is what holds true, then if BLU was too far along as a tank, and didnt have the playstyle to be a DPS, it needed more time to adjust, while RDM was much easier to just slap it together.
But to continue WHY I think this... Gunbreaker.
They also made the same excuse to why 'no healer' in the expansion, as they did for 'no tanks', and yet we got Gunbreaker. So here is where things get awkward for SE. (if this is all true)
They decided the best way to get casual players to play Tanks and Healers, was to change them into the current ShB styled tanks/healers. (Over simplified healers, and Tanks are just DPS now) So if a complex tank like BLU was going to be a tank, it needs to be reworked into a DPS instead. The Leaker said all the animations were nearly done since Storm Blood Launch, which was the #1 time consuming part of making the jobs. (Deciding how they play is actually a very short process. I forget what Yoshida said, but my memory THINKS it was something like a single day. Dont quote me on that lol) If it was a melee job, did it have a weapon? If so, was it removed? Were the animations repurposed for another job? I know I would, if I did that.

So here we are, the excuses we heard for why BLU wasnt a real job (despite being told it wasnt a real job, it was intended to be one from the start) werent actually true. Plus the logic was only applied to BLU, but not other classic jobs, including DNC. This sounds like damage control, since a lot went wrong in the process of making BLU.

I feel BLU was a tank, and actually used the Gunblade. The animations for basic attacks, and some others, were probably given to GNB, while they gave BLU a basic wand, and didnt have to make sets of BLU weapons. (This is why they changed to the caster role last minute) They slapped together a limited job out of what remained from the BLU job. (Only partly trying to do what they said, which was make it more like "Classic" BLU, since it was going to be a limited job.) Yoshida might have intended to just straight up abandon it and said they were never going to attempt BLu again, but someone suggested they dont throw away what they made, and do a limited job. Yoshida decided to give it a try. And in turn tried to justify a limited job, but it was never something thought out enough in the first place. (I also feel this is why the GNB AF is defaulted to the color BLU, and not colored White/Black to match Seifer, or Squall. But that MIGHT also be why Thancreds version is white, to try and make it reference ff8. Not a 100% sure, but I feel its quite possible)

I also Feel DNC was probably hurt in the same process, since it has cast animations, and the questline was about healing others. But SE wanted to simplify healers, so the over simplistic DNC rotation was modified at the last minute, to be a DPS, since it would be too complex by Healer standards. (Probably why basic stuff like "does it wear scouting or aiming gear?" wasnt decided till the very last minute)

Of course I can be wrong on all, or most of it, but its the only thing that makes sense to me, regarding the inaccurate info we've been given about BLU, plus other small oddities.
(EDIT: And No, i have no intention of looking up old info to provide links. You're on your own lol. Its ok if u plan to ignore every word I typed. Its too much a pain in the butt to find super old stuff. Heck, I cant even find patch notes for content between 2.0 and 2.1, but I was there when they made hotfixes/minor patches)

Finally, someone who speaks english and did the reading last night.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

But but... Geomancy comes from the Tengu in 14 lore. Ganen wasn't known as a benevolent man healing his way across Yanxia.

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Geomancer was also a Tactics job, it matters not where they came from or what they should be.

Astro was a one off job of an NPC in one singular fight in Tactics, and Machinist was Mustadio's job. Every iteration of a job weve gotten has been a Tactics job, but 14 inspired.

The connection between Sharlayan Astrology and Geomancy is strong, yet she says she cant get it to work no matter how hard she tries, that they are too separate in practice despite how beneficial and synergistic they work together.

My belief is they plan to return to the old ways, White Mage <-> Scholar, Astro <-> Geomancer; beneficial pairs that complement each other and make up for each others weaknesses.

That's what I hope for and see in the writing, yet it's clear, for whatever reason, that the Writing team, combat team, and final decision makers dont talk to each other, as everything always comes out a jumbled mess.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Geomancer was also a Tactics job, it matters not where they came from or what they should be.

Astro was a one off job of an NPC in one singular fight in Tactics, and Machinist was Mustadio's job. Every iteration of a job weve gotten has been a Tactics job, but 14 inspired.

The connection between Sharlayan Astrology and Geomancy is strong, yet she says she cant get it to work no matter how hard she tries, that they are too separate in practice despite how beneficial and synergistic they work together.

My belief is they plan to return to the old ways, White Mage <-> Scholar, Astro <-> Geomancer; beneficial pairs that complement each other and make up for each others weaknesses.

That's what I hope for and see in the writing, yet it's clear, for whatever reason, that the Writing team, combat team, and final decision makers dont talk to each other, as everything always comes out a jumbled mess.

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Saying that Geomancer was also a tactics job doesn't strengthen your case for it as a healer though, since it was an axe wielding caster in it. There has not been an iteration of Geomancer that even had access to healing magic.

The quest you are referring to says that the practices are similar in that they draw power from a star(s), and Aspected Benefic when cast in Nocturnal Sect worked as a "temporary" solution to fix a barrier spell.

But back on the Tactics thing vs what I said, I'm not talking about lore from a different game, I am talking about story in place in this current game that we are playing. That would be like me saying "Yeah this is the story of where white mages come from" and someone saying "yeah but they were a class in this other game". The first famous Geomancer learned Wind, Earth and Water magic from tengu in the mountains. They were dispatched with the shinobi to the moon gates to use mastery of wind magic to bring down airships. The few examples of Geomancer classed monsters in the game are also not healers.

They are also not fortune tellers as the quest would have you believe. They exorcise spirits, and thus were rumored to bring good fortune. The only Geomancers that have anything with fortune telling are the groups of fake geomancers that are common in Kugane.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

There has not been an iteration of Geomancer that even had access to healing magic.

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(1) pretty sure it did in FF3 and FF6 (Only if u count mog in FF6)
(2) Prior iterations of RDM didnt use Stone or Aero as their White Magic. This game will make up reasons why something is possible. And will retcon lore reasons why YOUR character/teacher, is the exception to the rule, when the games current lore prevents something.

So none of the arguments for and or against it hold any real merrit honestly. The best argument would be if a job could reasonable fit the role, based on the current roles limitations. (Such as Healers only being allowed 1 DoT, 1 nuke, and 1 AoE nuke. Any more complexity to DPS wouldnt be acceptable under current healer design, which might change again next expansion)

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Thats exactly how I feel, and why I brought that all up. By having categories of "Physical Ranged" and "Magical Ranged" We now have an issue where the creators dont want a hybrid, who's half of each, or 33/66% of each, etc. (Though I never actually stated thats my reason. But it leads down that rabbit hole, if we let the conversation go on long enough) BUT, I also brought it up, just to point out ppl werent being consistent with it.

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Sorry, I missed that last post before. And I see now. I'm sorry I missed that subtext before; it feels so obvious on the reread that I'm wondering where I went stupid there.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

(1) pretty sure it did in FF3 and FF6 (Only if u count mog in FF6)
(2) Prior iterations of RDM didnt use Stone or Aero as their White Magic. This game will make up reasons why something is possible. And will retcon lore reasons why YOUR character/teacher, is the exception to the rule, when the games current lore prevents something.

So none of the arguments for and or against it hold any real merrit honestly. The best argument would be if a job could reasonable fit the role, based on the current roles limitations. (Such as Healers only being allowed 1 DoT, 1 nuke, and 1 AoE nuke. Any more complexity to DPS wouldnt be acceptable under current healer design, which might change again next expansion)

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In 3 they didn’t have access to any healing terrain abilities, and in 6 one of the dances healed. So Mog did have access to a healing dance. So we have them as a class in 8ish different main title and off title final fantasy games where the only heal they ever have access to is a Mog dance in 6. As for Red Mage I played as one for a very long time in XI who had access to both Aero and Stone from quite an early level.

I do agree with you on how they tend to warp lore around the WoL and job history when it comes to quests. But let’s pretend Black Mage isn’t in the game yet. And they have a whole expansions worth of story for them (albeit you REALLY have to look for it or buy it), and they are established as what they have always done, elemental casting, would they really try and warp that to fill a healer roll when there are other options without the extra effort that would be needed?

I hadn’t even thought about what you had brought up about healers getting a nuke and a dot for their damage abilities. I would hate to see my favorite class in the franchise stuffed into a single element cast, a dot and some heals. Now I’m scared :(

I just want HW SCH and AST back, man. I feel like that might be a common enough sentiment.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

I hadn’t even thought about what you had brought up about healers getting a nuke and a dot for their damage abilities. I would hate to see my favorite class in the franchise stuffed into a single element cast, a dot and some heals. Now I’m scared :(

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I don't see any reason why Geomancer couldn't have DPS abilities that worked like a roulette. Your single target spell could change every single time under the theory that you channel nature's aether around you and it's concentration fluctuates constantly like the seasons and weather. So pressing the same button would simply give you different visual effects, and possiby different potency, which honestly is far more exciting than what we have now. It would still be simple but visually appealing which is a design concept for healers they seemed to ignore. I'm still baffled why they said specifically they wanted to give each healer a more solid identity in this expansion and then made Dia, Glare, and Broil look like carbon copies of each other.

In terms of a new healer I have been hoping for anything that has a movement option, specifically Arithmetician since I loved the random damage and healing they could do in tactics with debuffs and buffs aplenty. Dancer gets 3 dashes on top of unlimited mobility so why can't we have a healer with a dash, teleport, or disengagement ability etc. I've always thought WHM needed an equivalent to BLM's teleport. Fluid Aura would be really fun if you encased yourself in water and dashed toward an enemy letting the bubble explode upon arrival doing splash damage to all surrounding enemies. You could get in close for Holy Spam and look cool doing it. Why can't a Scholar swap positions with their fairy with Diversion Tactics? Astro is the only healer without any point blank attacks and they already have more mobility with shorter cast times so it doesn't really seem as necessary for them.

So.... druid? ;)

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

In terms of a new healer I have been hoping for anything that has a movement option, specifically Arithmetician since I loved the random damage and healing they could do in tactics with debuffs and buffs aplenty.

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Arithmetitian would be such a fun and complicated class to play, be it healer or caster.

The whole point of the Arithmetitians was to apply conditions that expanded and magified other spells, be it healing or harm.

So for example you had an ability that targeted everything that was standing above your current height level or something below, or enemies and allies with odd number of HP or MP, those far away or those close by.

Those are very complicated things ro be tracking as a MMO player but they could adapt them to FFXIV.

The state of healing spells is rather stale, everything is either a point blank AoE or Single target heal.

Arithmetitian could introduce powerful and complex new healing mechanics, such as Bouncing Healing buffs, Triple targeting heals, Distance variable potency heals, Damage and Healing tied effects, Damage reflecting buffs, Accumulative healing bombs(Think of Wildfire from Mch but as a healing ability) , HP State reverting/swaping, percentage based healing.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

Are you animation locked? Do you take damage while you are running across the map with these abilities?

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While the combat medic casts the Raise ability the animation would be a stretcher coming up from the ground lifting the fallen player while a panicking chibi angel dressed as a medic defibrillates the player.

The healing abilities for the combat medic would be shooting syringes to heal players.

Something creative and funny would be an enjoyable experience playing the class.

Not sure if anyone in here plays FFXI still but I found out recently a Chemist Trust healer was put in the game: https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Trust:_Monberaux

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

Not sure if anyone in here plays FFXI still but I found out recently a Chemist Trust healer was put in the game: https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Trust:_Monberaux

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Every job weve ever gotten has been an iteration of the Tactics version of the Job; therefore, they would not follow 11's standards to give us a new job. The exception is Gunbreaker, but regardless.

Chemist is a high doubt for me; Salvemaker or Cannoneer? Unlikely, but more possible.

Taking into account the further skill pruning and simplification next expansion, anything complex or out of phase with the 'difficulty' of scholar and pr-existent brackets is a no. So you can exclude anything with any depth or thought. It would have to be a different gimmick of sorts with the same net effect, to fit the homogenization of the classes going forward. Which really does limit their creativity. I am no big healer player but my duo'ing partner is and so I am curious as to what they manage to make of it. A new healer is obviously long overdue. Not sure how you've all had the patience to wait, considering how nauseatingly boring your current options have become.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Every job weve ever gotten has been an iteration of the Tactics version of the Job; therefore, they would not follow 11's standards to give us a new job. The exception is Gunbreaker, but regardless.

Chemist is a high doubt for me; Salvemaker or Cannoneer? Unlikely, but more possible.

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Eh? I assume im misunderstanding what you mean. Im reading this as "PLD was based on the weapon/armor breaking job in FFT" and "SMN was based on the AoE only burst DPS" ect.
List of inaccurate comparisons to the tactics versions: PLD(Knight), BRD, DNC, SMN, BLU (squires ability, otherwise FFTA), DRK (Fairly sure its not based on this), SCH, AST, and SAM.
Then you have a bit of a grey area, in the following, depending on your opinion on whats counts or not; NIN, MCH, MNK, BLM, DRG, and WHM. Leaving us off with the only jobs that come close to a FFT (or FFTA) comparison... RDM. Thats it. (And its not locked behind vierra only, but the job is at least very close to what it could be in FFTA)

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Every job weve ever gotten has been an iteration of the Tactics version of the Job; therefore, they would not follow 11's standards to give us a new job. The exception is Gunbreaker, but regardless.

Chemist is a high doubt for me; Salvemaker or Cannoneer? Unlikely, but more possible.

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This is 100% not true and I will let you refer to Claire's post about this. And while you are entitled to your opinion on doubting chemist, it's just as valid as other people's feelings for wanting it.

If we get chemist, or if we dont, I wont be playing it either way. I was showing an iteration of chemist that is showing that chemist can be a healer. The trusts abilities are all item names and heals, so it "can" be done. Salvemaker just sounds like semantics, who cares what it's called based on what it does.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

This is 100% not true and I will let you refer to Claire's post about this. And while you are entitled to your opinion on doubting chemist, it's just as valid as other people's feelings for wanting it.

If we get chemist, or if we dont, I wont be playing it either way. I was showing an iteration of chemist that is showing that chemist can be a healer. The trusts abilities are all item names and heals, so it "can" be done. Salvemaker just sounds like semantics, who cares what it's called based on what it does.

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I was really talking about the naming. They wont call it Chemist because of Alchemist; they'll likely draw on another source for naming like they did for Gunbreaker.

I also said that each job has been an iteration of a Tactics based job, I never said copy. Every single job weve gotten, besides Gunbreaker, has been a job that has been in Final Fantasy Tactics. There is much love for the series in the world, and even to the point of the creator of the lore and overseer of the Ivalcian lore has been invited to write the story for the Relic Quest.

Hence, it will not be called Chemist due to confliction with Alchemist, but it could share features and abilities with it, just under a different name i.e. Salvemaker (Bravely Default, or Rebooted Final Fantasy) or Cannoneer (Tactics A2, and a Ronso based job as well).

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

I was really talking about the naming. They wont call it Chemist because of Alchemist; they'll likely draw on another source for naming like they did for Gunbreaker.

I also said that each job has been an iteration of a Tactics based job, I never said copy. Every single job weve gotten, besides Gunbreaker, has been a job that has been in Final Fantasy Tactics. There is much love for the series in the world, and even to the point of the creator of the lore and overseer of the Ivalcian lore has been invited to write the story for the Relic Quest.

Hence, it will not be called Chemist due to confliction with Alchemist, but it could share features and abilities with it, just under a different name i.e. Salvemaker (Bravely Default, or Rebooted Final Fantasy) or Cannoneer (Tactics A2, and a Ronso based job as well).

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I feel you're still making connections where there arent any. Even by naming standards, we have Paladin instead of Knight, Black Mage instead of Wizard, White Mage instead of Priest, etc. The fact they have Lancer as the class, and not as the job, etc. FF14s base game was its own thing, and patch 1.23 was also its own thing. The names from FFT were based on prior FFs, with some changes of their own. The only reason we see so many jobs like Astro from FFT, is because it encompassed a lot of jobs, along with NPC unique jobs. (Theres also the fact the creators of the lore in FFT are technically different than those who made the lore in FFTA, as they were on the project, but had vastly different roles int he projects) Theres just a few small things referencing FFT, but its not even "most of them". What gives off the impression of it being "most of them" is purely coincidental.

But to the part about chemists name, I can definitely see that, as thats the sole reason we have "Paladin" instead of "Knight". So as to not conflict with "Dark Knight" in sounding too similar. (And in the case of FF4, "Knight" was a direct upgrade to "Dark Knight".)

lastly, I feel jobs heavily designed by yoshida were more akin to lineage 2 (His favorite MMO), like how DRK was the "Magic defense" tank. Rather than a superbolide styled tank, that sacs HP for better survival. Where SMN was a dot/pet class, rather than a burst AoE job. So I'd say that, plus FFXI, were the biggest influences, even if they are still different from those 2 sources, followed by small references to the rest of FF games, including some from FFT. Looking at BLU, and how he was too focused on making it mimic FF11, rather than FF5, so it became a limited job. (FFTAs BLU is amazing. "Damage MP" is pretty much single handedly the best ability on them, allowing them to soak up hits, as they use short range spells. Technically more tanky than the other melee jobs. I WISH he built BLU to be more like FFTAs over this limited BLU design)

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

I was really talking about the naming. They wont call it Chemist because of Alchemist; they'll likely draw on another source for naming like they did for Gunbreaker.

I also said that each job has been an iteration of a Tactics based job, I never said copy. Every single job weve gotten, besides Gunbreaker, has been a job that has been in Final Fantasy Tactics. There is much love for the series in the world, and even to the point of the creator of the lore and overseer of the Ivalcian lore has been invited to write the story for the Relic Quest.

Hence, it will not be called Chemist due to confliction with Alchemist, but it could share features and abilities with it, just under a different name i.e. Salvemaker (Bravely Default, or Rebooted Final Fantasy) or Cannoneer (Tactics A2, and a Ronso based job as well).

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I agree with this and have tried to mention it myself as well. Personally, I love the idea of naming the job "Apothecary."

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

I was really talking about the naming. They wont call it Chemist because of Alchemist; they'll likely draw on another source for naming like they did for Gunbreaker.

I also said that each job has been an iteration of a Tactics based job, I never said copy. Every single job weve gotten, besides Gunbreaker, has been a job that has been in Final Fantasy Tactics. There is much love for the series in the world, and even to the point of the creator of the lore and overseer of the Ivalcian lore has been invited to write the story for the Relic Quest.

Hence, it will not be called Chemist due to confliction with Alchemist, but it could share features and abilities with it, just under a different name i.e. Salvemaker (Bravely Default, or Rebooted Final Fantasy) or Cannoneer (Tactics A2, and a Ronso based job as well).

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I see what you are saying, but I guess I don't understand why you disagreed with me showing a character in XI that is a chemist healer, considering chemist was also in tactics, and technically a healer. I didn't mean we need to exactly copy it, it's showing that a chemist can be shown as a healer in an mmo.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

I see what you are saying, but I guess I don't understand why you disagreed with me showing a character in XI that is a chemist healer, considering chemist was also in tactics, and technically a healer. I didn't mean we need to exactly copy it, it's showing that a chemist can be shown as a healer in an mmo.

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It was more a general follow up to the conversation, I apologize if that seemed like a direct attack.

I still think Blue Mage should have been a tank, you know, so its icon would be BLUE? It would have been so much more awesome, as much as I love Gunbreaker, really wished Blue Mage was a Tank instead of a limited failure.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

I still think Blue Mage should have been a tank, you know, so its icon would be BLUE? It would have been so much more awesome, as much as I love Gunbreaker, really wished Blue Mage was a Tank instead of a limited failure.

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Im fairly confident BLU was originally being planned as a tank. (Made a lot of replies why, and how i came to such conclusions, but im too lazy to look for them, so here's an over simplified list)
1) Leaker proved BLU went through a lot of changes, even roles.
2) Leaker said they were a melee mage, that fit the melee DPS role at an earlier point in SB.
3) Leaker said they were meant to come out with the release of SB, to be along side RDM, but they didnt have time, it got put on hold.
4) SE thought about having a tank and/or healer for SB launch, Leaker didnt specify much on that.
5) RDMs DPS was the 1st DPS not to have a timer ticking down, with a DoT/buff they had to maintain. This makes me believe it was meant to be a healer. (With BLU as the tank, and SAM as the DPS)
6) BLU was almost finished with its animations/graphics near the start of SB.
7) BLU also had a weapon before.
8) The longest part of making a job is animations.
9) If they lost their melee weapon, which weapons did they have?

Final assumption... BLU was going to be a fending tank with the gunblade. (Also why i think the AF is blue for GNB) But they decided to over simplify the tanks and healers in ShB, and in turn tried to make BLU a DPS. A BLU tank that equipped spells into shells (i assume) would have probably been considered too complex for the new tank/healer simplifications. They took away the gunblade, so as to make a tank with it, and in turn reused the animations for Gunbreaker. Now with a weapon gone, how can BLU be a melee DPS? Simple, they dont get multiple weapons as they level up, and instead just make one or two really simple looking canes. Now they are casters only. Yoshida probably intended to throw away BLU, since GNB was going to be the new tank. But an employee threw out the idea of limited jobs (this was said in an interview about wanting to throw BLU away, and someone else suggested limited jobs) now they can keep all the hard work on animations, and BLU makes it into the game, rather than being a failed idea that was probably never going to be revisited again.
This also explains why all the "reasons" yoshida said "BLU couldnt work" were false, and never actually happened. Including the obvious wrongful statement of ~"It wouldnt be a true BLU, if it didnt have X features liek the FFXI version"~ (rephrased obviously) This logic was never applied to any of the other jobs, why was BLU the breaking point? Why was BLU required to be like FFXI, rather than more akin to other iterations of BLU? (And even then, they only took some of the features that made BLU likable in XI...?)

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I agree with this and have tried to mention it myself as well. Personally, I love the idea of naming the job "Apothecary."

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Ever since I heard it, I've been a big fan of Medicus, the Garlean name for their healers. Shortened to MED.

A touch late, but every job isn't from FFT. If you want to expand it to FFTA/TA2 then you're basically just grabbing a bulk of the jobs in the game as it is. And every job in this game outside of Astrologian (which is a made up job, saying otherwise is kidding yourself) appears in multiple other games outside of Tactics. The jobs in FFXIV are simply well known/popular jobs, saying anything else is just being pretty silly.

And I really, really hope for a new healer. Whether that's a casting Chemist or Geomancer or Onmyouji or whatever else I'm sure it'll be interesting enough, even if I find the latter two more interesting aesthetically by leaps and bounds. I could see a Time Mage or Green Mage too, not even taking into account the possibility of a new job like we got with Astro.

Edit: Oh, on the Blue Mage stuff, honestly I agree with Yoshida that it wouldn't really be a proper Blue Mage if they just put it in a job like the rest. Blue Mages don't fit the normal boxes very well at all. My guess personally is that they tried to make a Blue Mage that fit a normal box and it just didn't work out.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

Edit: Oh, on the Blue Mage stuff, honestly I agree with Yoshida that it wouldn't really be a proper Blue Mage if they just put it in a job like the rest. Blue Mages don't fit the normal boxes very well at all. My guess personally is that they tried to make a Blue Mage that fit a normal box and it just didn't work out.

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The reason this logic doesnt work, is that over half of what we have in 14 dont follow the usual identities of the prior jobs. So why is BLU the only job thats being treated this way?
BLU was one of the least consistent of the entire series. You could just make a reskin of WAR, and make its enemy magic be limit breaks, and that would be accurate to prior games in the series.
BLU is also one of the few melee mages, and the most tanky of the melee mages. (With Mystic Knight being the most physically offensive of the melee mages)
BLU was pretty much the SMN of melee. SMN was the caster who was the best at AoE, and BLU was the melee who was the best at AoE. Most melee didnt AoE. But the one role that practically requires AoE in order to function at its role, is tank. Melee DPS dont actually NEED AoE DPS, other than to compete with caster AoE DPS (like the issues that came up with wanders palace speed runs back in 2.0) Every single job capable of melee in FF was capable of tanking in some fashion. And every single ranged job was capable of DPSing. Nearly half the ranged jobs were capable of healing/supporting as well. Many people want to define BLU solely based on certain abilities, like Lv5 Death. But thats like defining BLM by having Doom/Death spells. When it had plenty of others to choose from for the MMO version.

One of the series "hardest to kill jobs", is literally known for being a floor tank in this game.
DRGs wear the strongest armors, and have a "100% dmg reduction" ability. In the games they can use a provoke like ability, they are probably tied with FFTA/FFE BLU in being nearly unkillable.
DRGs spending so much time away from combat actually has them doing less DPS than any other job in the game, including WHM. (I think FF9 may be the exception, but i havent bothered leveling freya enough to find out for certain) But yoshida saw DRG as the highest single target dmg DPS in 1.23.
BLM was supposed to be the king of single target, but was instead regulated to king of AoE DPS... which BLM was only mediocre at AoE dmg in most games. With SMN filling the role of highest AoE dmg. But SMN was one of the worst AoE jobs when it came out, and was a DoT class...

PLD not every game uses heals, but FF1 even gave them cure. Had to cross class it, and it was really weak, due to PLD not having a magic stat. Lets also give them weapon skills. Lets also change how cover works. Lets make them work with threat, to fit an MMO build, but not have 2hand options, and armor/weapon break abilities, as that would be too similar to a DPS. (Despite 2hand could have been the sword oath replacement) Lets also give PLD positional attacks (in 1.23) because thats what PLD has always been about, hitting enemies from the side.
WAR this 'job' is mostly based on FF11s WAR, which both are technically a unique job that didnt exist prior. The job they are mostly akin to, is the Berserker jobs (which have been inconsistent) mixed with some PLD/viking abilities/themes. But for w/e reason was the healing tank... but this is an MMO, so it also couldnt be a DPS... Also had the highest HP. Also had some of the highest Aoe dmg in 1.23, because its an MMO, and not because it makes sense thematically. Lets also not give them a passive trait to lower dmg taken by a percentage, like in prior FFs for berserkers. But instead give it to PLD, for its tank stance and abilities.
MNK the job known for having the highest HP, and the lowest magic defense. has a good means of HP restoration compared to physical melee, and unlike other jobs, doesnt need gear. gear makes them weaker... but u know, this is an MMO, cant have a job hat doesnt need to gear up... the sole purpose of MNK. Lets also make it the elemental fist job. But cant use its traditional kick for AoE, which was set it apart from other physical melee. Also cant let MNK tank, since this is an MMO, despite being good at all non magical fights in FFs. Lets give them elemental fists, trying to be a weird magical melee.
DRG was allowed to use "jump" every turn, but here we cant have a cool move like jump as the basic GCD action, it must be on a CD, because MMO balance... (also cant make it a good defensive option either) cant allow a DPS to wear tank gear... gotta make its basic attacks the focus of the job.
WHM can heal enemies, revive undead, reflect enemy magic back at them, put reraise on people, didnt have AoE dmg spells, had mediocre melee dmg with hammers, due to lack of offensive spells till late game, but yet again, this is an MMO, cant have all of that, they need to fit the MMO healer role. Lets also make them druids. They are also the job with the strongest shields in the FF series. Lets instead make them the pure healer, and SCh the shield healer...
BLM can insta kill enemies, make them old, turn them into frogs/pigs, poison enemies while dealing normal elemental dmg to them. able to exploit elemental weaknesses, turn single target spells into aoe, at the cost of dividing the dmg among the targets. can use Ultima... But nope, must be a fire mage, who on rare occasions casts a poison called thunder, and blizzard to regain MP (instead of Osmose), because MMO playstyles/balance.
SCH could cast all tier1 magic from white and black, and could see enemy weaknesses. Rather than taking this, and amplifying it to something interesting, they just get the non elemental magic (ruin) and gains a bunch of poisons, while also getting a cute fairy... completely nonsensical, and uses up a bit of the Calculator themes., while staying healer only for MMO balance. Lets also make them the shield healer, despite having no history of doing this.
SMN all attacks should have been from the pet, and should have all been AoE. SMN always had something of a penalty for doing this, be it high MP cost, long cast times, or cast times with HP attached to the pet. (FFX had a good one, a mixture of everything, plus pets had single target options while building up to their massive burst AoE phase) but nope, MMO balance. Couldnt have any of the great healing summon options either.
BRD Cant have this job be anything like itself, this is a trinity MMO. (Also to balance ARC, since it lead to imbalance issues in the past, but they failed to balance it right anyways)
(similar logic to future jobs added)


BUT WE DRAW THE LINE FOR BLUE MAGE!!! ONE OF THE MOST INCONSISTENT JOBS OF THEM ALL, IT MUST BE LIKE FFXI'S VERSION OF BLU!!! BUT ALSO NOT!!!! THAT IS THE ONLY VERSION OF BLUE THAT IS THE TRUE VERSION OF BLU!!

this is why the logic isnt being applied equally here, and is complete BS. This is the same thing you see with politicians. They tell you a nice sounding lie, because theres an alternate reason for their actions, that either they dont feel like explaining, or because they feel you wouldnt understand. If it sounds illogical, chances are its a white lie, or in worst case scenario, full blown lie. Im not suggesting its for nefarious reasons, just that its not the truth.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

The reason this logic doesnt work, is that over half of what we have in 14 dont follow the usual identities of the prior jobs. So why is BLU the only job thats being treated this way?

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I would guess because they learn their magic from monsters. To really do that justice it has to be different, and because of that it ends up being a messy mish-mash of spells which doesn't lend itself well to a proper MMO class. So they tried something different, which is cool I think. Kinda sucks for big time BLU fans but you can't fault them for trying something new and interesting.

They'll release psychic, no worries

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

I would guess because they learn their magic from monsters. To really do that justice it has to be different, and because of that it ends up being a messy mish-mash of spells which doesn't lend itself well to a proper MMO class. So they tried something different, which is cool I think. Kinda sucks for big time BLU fans but you can't fault them for trying something new and interesting.

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There's been tons of work arounds suggested by people on how to handle this. (And I dont mean the easy way out of just giving BLU quests to learn spells)
Almost every boss in the game does their primary attack/mechanic before being killed. So if they learned spells from MSQ dungeon bosses, as an example, there wouldnt be a problem (outside of the fact SE decided to go the route of FFXI where there is only a 'chance' to learn a spell, rather than 100% if you see it/get hit by it/use skill on an enemy. (Depending on which version of BLU you'd rather go with)
But i put most of the blame on the fact SE puts very little time into the design, and more on the animations. I dont remember where i heard this, be it interview, or someone saying "i heard it from a friend" so u can take it with a grain of salt, but something like 2 hours spent on the design of all the new jobs. so less an hour of each job. id assume this is one of the issues why they didnt think of solutions other than simple ones.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

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1. Most of the jobs in the series do not violate a core part of their identities. Further you're just making a logical fallacy. It isn't good to violate a core part of a jobs identity. Adding another job that does that would not make things better.

2. Blue has consistencies, even with XIV, that it wouldn't have had if you tried to wedge it into a specific role.

3. Blue Mages really aren't "melee" mages most of the time. They don't really need to be in melee range to make the most of their moves. They can be, and they'll certainly do better than a White Mage, but in terms of times that it's a dedicated job it really doesn't need to be. Given though that there isn't even a melee mage role in this game you're really just making my point for me of how Blue Mage doesn't work.

4. Dragoons... do not have a provoke effect. Provoke like effects are fairly rare. "https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Provoke_(ability)" should show you that. It's missing an instance (FFD), but it's mostly complete. Of noteworthy jobs there are Knights, Dark Knights, Vikings, and Warriors having Provoke. None of those are Dragoon.

5. Dragoons have access to heavier armor still, so acting like they don't is kind of silly. Dragoons absolutely could have been a tank, but as a job needs to be a single role that isn't an option. And tanks, in general, aren't really a thing in mainline FFs so you're going to have to twist things a touch to make it happen. As is Dragoons aren't in violation of how they work throughout the series. Still have spears, still Jump, still wear heavier armor.

6. Dragoons do heavy burst damage sure. But I don't think that having a job take a minute up in the air would be a great way to make the game work, and it wouldn't be the only game where you can speedily do Dragoon jumps, so it's again a minor aspect that doesn't violate the core.

7. Black Mages are in general fairly good at AoE damage relative to the bulk of jobs, owing mostly to the lack of competition. While Summoners are better that's more just about Summoners having stronger damaging spells in general without the split damage effect, they're stronger at single target damage compared to Black Mages as well. Summoners (not Black Mages) are probably the only one I'd accept as an exception, but go back to point 1 for why it's irrelevant.

8. Most of your complaints for Paladins are either specific to the nature of FFXIV or again not a violation of what Paladins are about. Paladins are not about "Break" attacks. That's not nearly consistent enough to treat it as a core part of their identity. They're heavily armored characters with some white magic/holy stuff that usually have a Cover effect. Paladins are that in this game as well.

9. Warriors are almost entirely inconsistent throughout the series, so any complaints about Warriors not lining up is pretty silly.

10. Monks could certainly have been a tank. Again, jobs can only be one role, so you're going to have to focus things a bit. Monks are still melee fighters with a mix of physical prowess and some supernatural chi effects, nothing really in violation of that. They don't "need" to avoid having gear, because this isn't even the first FF where they use gear, and it wasn't the last either.

11. Dragoon's need more than just Jump. That's, again, kind of a basic starting point. You can't have them just jump and nothing else, much like you can't have a job just use the same one move over and over again without any change. It's why they don't just Jump in Explorers either, and it was on a cooldown there as well.

12. FF doesn't have shield spells really. The closest you can have to a Shield spell is Bubble, which isn't a White Magic spell traditionally, it's Green or Arcane. I suppose that once in 4HoL it was a White Magic spell, but 4HoL in general is rather weird, and Bubble still does not work like the shield spells a Scholar uses. White Mages in this game are still healers with some damage effects, nothing in violation of that. As for using elements other than Holy this isn't the first time White Mages have used those elements. Wind is used by them in FFIII, Water is used by them in Explorers, Earth is used by them in Mobius. So in short, nothing in violation.

13. FFXIV doesn't have elemental weaknesses, and thus they had to give Black Mages some sort of theme. As is it's about balancing Fire/Ice which are two of the main three elements of a Black Mage. It's still a magic DPS all about blasting down enemies, not really any issues.

14. Scholar is not remotely consistent. FFIII is different from FFXI is different from FFTA2, and those are just the examples I can think of off the top of my head, may be another one. Because of TA2 you can't even point at balancing White and Black as a theme, because in TA2 it just does "every unit on the field gets hit with X" effects. Much like Warrior it isn't really much in the way of themes to call consistent or not.

15. Honestly? Summoner I agree with. As I said earlier, I think they should have done something different. I have an idea for Summoner that I feel would be slow and steady and work better. But I don't agree with "all AoE", as Summoners do have single target effects. I don't think that you could have a painfully slow job or painfully expensive one either, that's simply bad game design in an MMO. But I don't want to ramble about my idea of what a good Summoner would be, just suffice to say I don't quite agree with your idea. As for healing that's inconsistent in terms of presence, I wouldn't argue it's a core trait myself.

16. Bards are possibly the other exception. Bear in mind, again, that I said that adding more jobs does not somehow justify your argument. You're committing a logical fallacy when you try and say "well X did it so Y should too". If your argument is "jobs shouldn't be consistent with past iterations" then you're welcome to that, but that isn't something I agree with. As far as Bards specifically go? I don't think the trinity system is the issue, I just think they wanted to give Rangers something to stand out a bit and thus grafted Bard onto it.

17. Blue Mage is not specifically XI's version, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here. It's different from past versions while still retaining the core identity, a mage who learns spells from monsters in a manner different from other jobs. If you just used the current Blue Mage and let it join Duty Finder like anyone else you'd have a mess. As is it's doing its own thing without throwing balance under the bus. If you want to suggest just letting it join parties as is (add some levels and a couple spells or whatever) with zero restrictions then go ahead, but that's just a huge problem.

18. In short, a lot of your complaints seem to be treating it like what needs to happen is rigid 100% adherence to past games, when what I'm talking about is more along the lines of a short two sentence description of the jobs key features that you can use to look at past games and say "these all fit". Coupled with that you keep insisting on a logical fallacy and seem to think that the game system should be built around the jobs, instead of the other way around. The jobs in FFT aren't 100% the same as they were previously, but they worked within the system and found unique expressions that still fit the core theme while being expressed differently because it was a new system.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

1. Most of the jobs in the series do not violate a core part of their identities. Further you're just making a logical fallacy. It isn't good to violate a core part of a jobs identity. Adding another job that does that would not make things better.

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Nearly half or more do. But obviously what you have decided is a core part of their identity is different from what i have.
Therefor im sure nothing else we say is going to be on the same page. (Also, which fallacy are you suggesting im making?) (EDIT: It seems you're accusing me of making the fallacy, when im the one pointing out the fallacy, by letting it play out to its conclusion. I dont agree with it, which i explain later in this post. But at the same time, if you're against me doing it to other jobs, why would you defend it when its used as a defense, by the devs, for BLUs limited status?)

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2. Blue has consistencies, even with XIV, that it wouldn't have had if you tried to wedge it into a specific role.

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this alone makes no sense. You can have 4 WHMs in FF1. In most FFs u can choose the role you wanted for a job, as most jobs could fit more than one role, and in some cases in certain games, do some crazy broken stuff. FF14 in its nature turns jobs into singular roles. its like taking DnD classes, and making them fit only one role, when in their nature, they were all a sort of "jack-of-all-trades" class. As if an MMO sees DnD's cleric and says, well Cleric is obviously the healer.

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3. Blue Mages really aren't "melee" mages most of the time. They don't really need to be in melee range to make the most of their moves. They can be, and they'll certainly do better than a White Mage, but in terms of times that it's a dedicated job it really doesn't need to be. Given though that there isn't even a melee mage role in this game you're really just making my point for me of how Blue Mage doesn't work.

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Not sure what "14 doesnt have a melee mage" has to do with the subject matter. But "Not most of the time" is very inaccurate. In most FFs you dont easily regenerate MP, so spending time meleeing was a good way to save MP for harder fights. One of the reasons RDM has lower MP as well, since it could melee reasonably well in half the games. As for "dont need to be in melee range" im not sure what you mean by this. Lets look at FF4, where almost every single melee had abilities that retained full effectiveness in the backrow. MNK had kick, NIN had throw, PLD had cure/cover, DRG had jump. Only Cid was rather unhelpful in the backrow just scanning enemies. From FF5 and on, as a kid, I put all my melee in the back row. You may deal 50% less dmg, but also took 50% less dmg. But potions/cures remained at full potency regardless if ur front or back row. so to me, this seemed like the sure fire way to win all fights. So im not sure where your arguement of "BLU doesnt need to remain in the front row" is coming from. of course it doesnt have to be. Nor did RDM. Literally everything BLU is capable of, can be represented in some shape or form, even if its lessened to a large degree.

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4. Dragoons... do not have a provoke effect.

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I know, im saying ina game where its possible to get. (Cross class options)

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5. Dragoons have access to heavier armor still, so acting like they don't is kind of silly. Dragoons absolutely could have been a tank, but as a job needs to be a single role that isn't an option. And tanks, in general, aren't really a thing in mainline FFs so you're going to have to twist things a touch to make it happen. As is Dragoons aren't in violation of how they work throughout the series. Still have spears, still Jump, still wear heavier armor.

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suddenly you're ok with arguing semantics, but its not ok when i do it.

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6. Dragoons do heavy burst damage sure. But I don't think that having a job take a minute up in the air would be a great way to make the game work, and it wouldn't be the only game where you can speedily do Dragoon jumps, so it's again a minor aspect that doesn't violate the core.

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core mechanic doesnt work in an MMO, but somehow its not a core mechanic... no. you're not going to just straight up state inaccurate information like this, regardless if you think its opinion or not, and think im going to believe it.

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7. Black Mages are in general fairly good at AoE damage relative to the bulk of jobs, owing mostly to the lack of competition. While Summoners are better that's more just about Summoners having stronger damaging spells in general without the split damage effect, they're stronger at single target damage compared to Black Mages as well. Summoners (not Black Mages) are probably the only one I'd accept as an exception, but go back to point 1 for why it's irrelevant.

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this is relatively arguable, due to different versions through the series, and including things like SMNs running out of MP quicker than BLMs, and spending turns to get the MP back, which is a DPS loss. BLM has better sustain (which doesnt matter) but worse sustain than a melee. As for which games SMN did more dmg on single target, were only at certain level ranges, including games like 7, where they could hit past damage cap. Outside of breaking damage cap, and the majority of the game before that point, they were roughly equal most of the time. with exceptions again, like FFX where its a DPS loss to summon, since u lost 2 other party members, and did less dmg until the final attack.

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8. Most of your complaints for Paladins are either specific to the nature of FFXIV or again not a violation of what Paladins are about. Paladins are not about "Break" attacks. That's not nearly consistent enough to treat it as a core part of their identity. They're heavily armored characters with some white magic/holy stuff that usually have a Cover effect. Paladins are that in this game as well.

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currently vs when PLD was 1st implemented. (which is where my complaint was directed at. but if i lacked clarity on that, thats my mistake.) As for break, i didnt see it as a core ability, so much as something thats appeared a few times for actions outside of holy magic, but instead PLD gained brand new weapon skills, and had no native cures/protect. along with the ability Cover being different from any offline FF. Obviously being inspired by FF11s version of Cover. The point of the argument wasnt which abilities each job should have. It was how accurate have the devs made the jobs, and how much leeway have the creators taken before, w/o thinking "We cant do X because the job did something else instead before." They clearly make some changes, which is something FF as a series has always done.

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9. Warriors are almost entirely inconsistent throughout the series, so any complaints about Warriors not lining up is pretty silly.

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The complaints werent directed at WARs lack of identity, but the fact the identity was taken from another jobs core identity. Such as MNK having the highest HP. Then when i said it was "the healing tank" it made no sense based on foresight/hindsight on the other tanks lack of identity. For those who can fight on the front line, BLU and RDM output the highest healing, followed by PLD. Then you can make arguments for jobs like DRKs absorbs, or MNKs chakra. (depending on the game, MNK can out heal PLD) but WAR? Neither FFXI WAR, nor other versions of Berserker/viking were known for being their healing, so why was this identity given to WAR? I have no issue with WAR having heals in a vacuum. I have an issue that this identity was taken from another job which already had this identity.

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10. Monks could certainly have been a tank. Again, jobs can only be one role, so you're going to have to focus things a bit. Monks are still melee fighters with a mix of physical prowess and some supernatural chi effects, nothing really in violation of that. They don't "need" to avoid having gear, because this isn't even the first FF where they use gear, and it wasn't the last either.

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It may not be the 1st nor last, but the same logic applies to BLU. The last FF to have enemy magic wasnt XIs BLU, nor was XIs BLU the 1st. Inconsistent logic.
Im not saying MNk had to be this identity. Im saying if you want to argue about how its ok for MNK to be different from the original, then its ok for BLU to be different from the original.

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11. Dragoon's need more than just Jump. That's, again, kind of a basic starting point. You can't have them just jump and nothing else, much like you can't have a job just use the same one move over and over again without any change. It's why they don't just Jump in Explorers either, and it was on a cooldown there as well.

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I understand this, im fairly certain everyone understands this. I doubt theres anyone who doesnt understand this. Now apply the same logic to BLU...

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12. FF doesn't have shield spells really. The closest you can have to a Shield spell is Bubble, which isn't a White Magic spell traditionally, it's Green or Arcane. I suppose that once in 4HoL it was a White Magic spell, but 4HoL in general is rather weird, and Bubble still does not work like the shield spells a Scholar uses. White Mages in this game are still healers with some damage effects, nothing in violation of that. As for using elements other than Holy this isn't the first time White Mages have used those elements. Wind is used by them in FFIII, Water is used by them in Explorers, Earth is used by them in Mobius. So in short, nothing in violation.

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I clearly didnt phrase this correctly, so this is my mistake. Im using the phrase "Shield" to mean mitigation, and not literal temporary HP. (Which BTW Stoneskin was, nor was this the 1st FF to use stoneskin) I meant the spells of Protect and Shell. They could be used similar to how they are used in PvP, for raid wide dmg reduction. Which can stack with temp HP shields. Which would have fixed the problem of them being seen as the "pure healer" in the prior expansions.

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13. FFXIV doesn't have elemental weaknesses, and thus they had to give Black Mages some sort of theme. As is it's about balancing Fire/Ice which are two of the main three elements of a Black Mage. It's still a magic DPS all about blasting down enemies, not really any issues.

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Purely opinion, that I disagree with. Spending time trying to figure out weaknesses was part of its fun, just as hunting down BLU spells was part of BLUs fun.

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14. Scholar is not remotely consistent. FFIII is different from FFXI is different from FFTA2, and those are just the examples I can think of off the top of my head, may be another one. Because of TA2 you can't even point at balancing White and Black as a theme, because in TA2 it just does "every unit on the field gets hit with X" effects. Much like Warrior it isn't really much in the way of themes to call consistent or not.

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I'll agree for the most part. I never played FFTA2. And I was quite upset at how different SCH was in XI, compared to 3. But I accepted it for the sake of keeping it balanced/usable in parties.

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15. Honestly? Summoner I agree with. As I said earlier, I think they should have done something different. I have an idea for Summoner that I feel would be slow and steady and work better. But I don't agree with "all AoE", as Summoners do have single target effects. I don't think that you could have a painfully slow job or painfully expensive one either, that's simply bad game design in an MMO. But I don't want to ramble about my idea of what a good Summoner would be, just suffice to say I don't quite agree with your idea. As for healing that's inconsistent in terms of presence, I wouldn't argue it's a core trait myself.

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I dont think you know what my idea really is, as I never said how it functions. I just stated the absolute skin deep basic identity. Im well aware that an identity need to be made to actually function in both trash pulls, and boss encounters. I also dont think its unreasonable to give the SMN single target attacks. But there technically is 0 reason to give them single target attacks. (unless you bring in CC as part of basic gameplay)

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You're committing a logical fallacy when you try and say "well X did it so Y should too". If your argument is "jobs shouldn't be consistent with past iterations" then you're welcome to that, but that isn't something I agree with.

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Im not saying that. Im saying that the logic of "BLU needs to remain as close to the FFXI identity as possible" isnt actually how they feel about all the jobs. Thats self explanatory. You and I just established they have made jobs different before. It makes no sense BLU is the only job with that requirement, but no other has it. Obviously theres no reason BLU has to be X% identical to a certain perceived identity. So the question now is, why was BLU the exception to this rule they claimed existed? They dont feel all jobs need to be upheld to this rule, and thats all I am ever saying. If they want to make different identities, thats their choice to make, even if I disagree with them. But if they are going to pretend there is a requirement for jobs to match players perceived identities of jobs, im going to call BS on it. I say there's an alternative reason, and based on what the leaker said, the current iteration of BLU wasnt what they originally saw in BLU. Heck, they even gave BLU summon abilities. Thats stepping on SMN identity, while never having been a BLU identity.

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17. Blue Mage is not specifically XI's version, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here. It's different from past versions while still retaining the core identity, a mage who learns spells from monsters in a manner different from other jobs. If you just used the current Blue Mage and let it join Duty Finder like anyone else you'd have a mess. As is it's doing its own thing without throwing balance under the bus. If you want to suggest just letting it join parties as is (add some levels and a couple spells or whatever) with zero restrictions then go ahead, but that's just a huge problem.

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I mean a job that learns spells by seeing them (not getting hit by them), equips them into slots, only had a CHANCE to learn the ability, rather than guaranteed like prior FFs, and can be any of the 3 roles based on spells equipped.
These ONLY existed in XI, and no where else. Half of the reasons they said BLU couldnt be a real job, were because of these 4 things. They didnt have to make spells be a % chance to learn, to which they claimed it wouldnt be fair for BLUs to be required to have their spells before a raid fight, since they could be really hard to go learn... THAT NEVER HAD TO BE A THING, NOR WAS IT A BLU IDENTITY! The closest thing, was BLUs could melee, to make up for a lack of spells, to do acceptable dmg, until they had useful spells. Games like 6, where BLU werent really a melee, was because Strago started off with his basic BLU spells, along with being able to use normal black and white magic like everyone else. They could have easily made basic WSs as filler attacks, until they gained the better DPS spells. (Again skin deep explanation, id have to go into far more detail how to balance it, and make it fun to play at the same time)

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18. In short, a lot of your complaints seem to be treating it like what needs to happen is rigid 100% adherence to past games, when what I'm talking about is more along the lines of a short two sentence description of the jobs key features that you can use to look at past games and say "these all fit". Coupled with that you keep insisting on a logical fallacy and seem to think that the game system should be built around the jobs, instead of the other way around. The jobs in FFT aren't 100% the same as they were previously, but they worked within the system and found unique expressions that still fit the core theme while being expressed differently because it was a new system.

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Im not saying that the jobs have to adhere to this rule, If anything, Im saying what you just finished off with, but saying it applies to BLU too. You're the one who's claiming BLU cant do it too.

Classic FFs didnt have pure trinity roles. So if you can look at a job, and say, "here are the roles it can fit into, while keeping the aesthetic, and general identity, with some alterations for the sake of being FFXIVs version/flavor." then you can do it for BLU too.

RDM could have easily been a melee mage, a caster DPS, melee Healer, and Caster healer. And to some degree, a tank too. (looking at FFXI for an example if needed)
Caster DPS is not the identity of RDM, but giving it a basic heal, rez, and a melee skill, suddenly its "good enough", and I agree. its good enough, even if its not what old RDM was.
BLU could have been all 3 roles, with the only one coming off as odd, would probably have been healer. Now as the expansions have changed tanking and healing, I would like to correct that to DPS only, as a BLU tank and Healer would be far too complex for what the devs currently have in mind for tanks/healers.
The current version of BLU is "mostly" fine. With very minor adjustments to balance, it could have been a caster DPS for normal parties. But now that they added mimicry, they doubled down on not letting BLU break out of being a limited job.
If not letting it do all 3 roles, or not letting it insta death a boss is breaking its identity, then we're back to disagreeing on whats BLUs identity.

(also, consider this a win in the argument for yourself, as I can no longer reply back on the forums in the morning. And can no longer defend my views to any additional comments. But do feel free to comment. I'll still read them, even if If I cant reply, or disagree with them. (or agree, in the off chance im convinced otherwise.))

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

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1. "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque" is the fallacy you are making. You are saying that because other jobs are not true to the series (a claim I don't even agree with) that it's fine if Blue Mage is not. Also of course different people define things differently. It goes without saying that SE for instance views Blue Mage as a legitimate Blue Mage and the other jobs the same way, while for others that won't be the case. The important part is to see how accurately the definitions one comes up with hold up under scrutiny. My definitions work just fine for the most part, though I'll grant that in this instance I've kind of hastily thrown them together as opposed to sitting down and defining them. What I'm basically looking at is consistent patterns.

2. The way a job plays out is somewhat dependent on how the system is set up, yes. Explorers does the same thing. Arguably XII does it with how it cut White Magic up, along with other Ivalice games. That doesn't mean those jobs are not proper representations of the job. Also four White Mages in FFI doesn't somehow change their role, all of them are ultimately the same job. The issue with Blue isn't just trying to wedge it into a specific role (though most of the jobs are basically a DPS variant, and the Healers are either consistently healers (White Mage) or basically established in this game), but that in order to make it fit into the system the same way the other jobs are you inevitably have to break some of its past consistency.

3. You described Blue Mages as being "melee mages". As there isn't a melee mage role in this game then it simply can't fill that role. It's pretty straight forward. As for the rest I'm not totally sure what you're going on about as it's kind of a huge aside. My point was that Blue Mages are not especially "melee" themed. But let's go through the games some.

In FFV, the first one with Blue Mages, they had a -8 Strength modifier. For reference White Mages had -7, Black Mages -9, and Red Mages +6. Melee mage? No, not especially. Strago has 28 Strength by default in FFVI. In terms of Strength the only person I saw with lower was Relm. Mog/Celes/Relm, the other three "mage-like" figures all have higher Strength. Again, melee mage? No, not really. I could mind you go through and compare Stamina/defenses but I don't expect that to pan out much better. Ignoring that Quistis only really has access to Blue Magic as a limit break, she's still in the bottom half of strength as far as the main group goes, with Squall, Rinoa, and Zell beating her overall. Quina is the first one of these examples that actually seems to be relatively better than other mages to a noteworthy extent, as her default max is 56 compared to Freya at 58 and Garnet/Eiko at 52 at the next lowest. Given that Quina has completely random damage though this is extremely arguable in terms of being meaningful. FFX's stats are kind of a mess to tackle so I'll set it aside, not even getting into the fact that Kimahri, much like Quistis, only has it as a Limit, making it a hard claim to call him a proper Blue Mage given he can't rely on it. Blue Mages in XI certainly stand out as far as melee potential goes, but they're hyper flexible in general. I wouldn't say they benefit from being melee in particular more than ranged and you can build them to be either or a number of other things.

Past that you're getting into spinoff territory. TA/TA2 you would have more of a case, their WA growth is roughly on par with Red Mages, which is roughly on par with Speedy Attacker kind of jobs like Ninja or Archer. Honestly just comparing stats Blue Mages seem like kind of ridiculous juggernauts in those games, probably owing to the difficulty of learning magic. Gun Mages round out the middle of the road kind of Blue Mage appearances. Outside of that we have Explorers where they're able to do anything.

In short TA/TA2/X-2 have roughly midtier stats, FFV/VI/VIII/IX they're really not any better at melee than most (Quina, being completely random, is unreliable, so at least for me I wouldn't put her in the front row), and XI/E are very broad and flexible beyond the midtier category I would argue. If you really want to argue Blue Mages are melee mages (post 148, sentence five) you have your work cut out for you.

4. To the best of my knowledge there isn't any game you can give a Dragoon Provoke. The only game where theoretically it would be possible (FFD) Dragoons are on Light, Dark Knight Dark, so you can't cross skills that way. FFV doesn't have Provoke after all. I suppose you could do that in FFXI, but I don't think you'd have much success with Dragoons as a tank outside of any others, and the way subjobs work in that game you could give any job Provoke so it's kind of moot for Dragoon in particular.

5. None of what I said was semantics here. Just throwing out a broad "that's semantics" is meaningless if you aren't going to properly define it.

6. As I said, Jump is sometimes used as a fast move, not a long delayed jump. Not even getting into IX where in Trance you can do damage more regularly while in the air. Whether you want to count those moves as Jump is ultimately a matter of opinion. To me I don't define Jump as strictly being a long winded attack where you can't get hit before execution. It hasn't been that way since FFVII.

7. Summoners are better than Black Mages in terms of raw damage. Whether it's single target or AoE, Summons are in general more effective. Summons are just extremely expensive, and it's generally somewhat wasteful to just spam summons on a single opponent, especially if the Summoner has other options. But the point is simply that they're more powerful than Black Mages and will hit the cap faster assuming relatively parity in terms of the spells used. But yes, what a Summoner or Black Mage does specifically can vary from game to game.

8. Changing how Cover works, or giving Paladins new weaponskills, or whatever else you want to argue, does not inherently break what a Paladin is though. That's the crux of the argument. You can fit Blue Mage into the same system as everyone else. And then you are breaking part of the identity of Blue Mages.

9. As Warrior does specifically self-healing comparing it to jobs that use magic (which lets it heal others) is somewhat unfair, they aren't the same thing. There is a huge difference between only targeting yourself and being able to target others. As for Monks having the highest HP this isn't a constant thing and is very dependent on the game. Tifa, for instance has midtier HP and Vitality, so she's not really a tank. Ursula, another Monk, has lower HP than a Machinist effectively (Luca), not even getting into other characters in TAY. And, again, Monk is not a Tank. Could Monk have been a tank? Sure. There are plenty of arguments for that. But there isn't anything about Warrior as a Tank that causes any problems (and is an entire aside as you're going after what Warrior does, not how it violates past games, which was the entire point of that long tangent).

10. Monks aren't necessarily different from how they are throughout the series. There are mostly two styles of Monks as opposed to only one, one of them being more quick combo heavy and the other the tankier high HP kind. While we can argue about which one should be the "true" Monk, I wouldn't really say there is anything wrong with having both. XIV went with the former style, but it could have gone with the latter. And none of my arguments with regards to Blue Mage have anything to do with XI, you keep bringing it up but it's ultimately not important to my case. My argument for Blue Mage applies to every single instance of it, not just XI specifically.

11. Given that at no point I have suggested Blue Mage should only use one move this is kind of irrelevant. You're demonstrating a lack of understanding as to what my point is.

12. No, this is only the second FF to use Stoneskin, and it's not an exclusive ability of White Mages in that game either so it's kind of irrelevant. It certainly does not make White Mages "shield mages" like Scholars. Though even then I'm not even sure what this whole tangent is about. In the end there isn't anything about how White Mages are depicted in XIV that somehow conflicts with it. And certainly adding "temporary HP" effects wouldn't really help make it fit more. As for damage reduction I wouldn't consider that specifically to be important, though I would say being broadly defensive is.

13. Whether you find it fun or not is irrelevant. FFXIV does not have elemental weaknesses. As the jobs should be built around how the system works and not vice verse then you need to find something for Black Mages. I don't find having specifically elemental spells to be key to Black Mages, as not all FFs have elemental weakness as a major thing (such as, say, XIV). Black Mages are about casting the spells that make the people fall down.

14. https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...ar_(Tactics_A2) is how Scholars in TA2 work. As you can see they're basically like indiscriminate Summoners. To use an FFIX example, all of their spells just about are Doomsday, just with different elements. The long and the short of it is Scholars are not really consistent barring "has a book".

15. Summons have single target summons though. If nothing else Chocobo and Sylph usually are, and there are other single target summons than those two. Being single target, to me, doesn't violate what Summoners should be. The key trait isn't "Area of Effect" but "meaningful boom" to be somewhat silly.

16. Again, nothing about Blue Mage as it is requires XI specifically. You've even acknowledged it doesn't work like XI's Blue Mage. So I don't know why you keep pointing to XI as the reason things are the way they are. A leaker seeing different traits than what we have now doesn't mean much of anything. Both in that we can't say for sure that they were being honest, and secondly that trying different ideas doesn't inherently mean much of anything. As for Blue Mages using summon moves, Summons are simply big monsters. There isn't any reason they shouldn't be able to.

17. FFVI Strago has to actually see the spells in order to learn them, not being struck by them. This is actually a noteworthy feature as Blind impacts learning the spell. So it's not an XI unique trait. Equipping them into slots is also a trait of Final Fantasy Explorers Blue Mage, so it's again, not a unique to XI trait. FFT is the first one that has percentage based learning. While not specifically tied to Blue Magic the concept is the same, so it's again not unique to XI. And Explorers lets Blue Mages be any role. They don't specifically have roles the same way XIV does, but they do acknowledge them, and Blue are the only ones that can be any of the four roles (basic three and Booster). So in short, all of the things you're saying are specific to FFXI can be found in other games, and some of them predate XI heavily.

18. As I said, even if we agree that the other jobs have violated what they should be (I don't), doing that with Blue does not make it any better. And a key part of what makes Blue what it is requires it learn spells in a method different from the other abilities in their respective games. Once you go to "levels and quests alone aren't how you learn abilities" you've got a mess of a job because you can't possibly use that in a balanced fashion with the rest of the game. If you'd like to propose something feel free.

19. You are welcome to post on GFAQs on the matter where I would likely see it.

To me, new job better be JUST heals. No DPS next expansion, one new job.
Why?
WE NEED REWORKS!
Healers need to be seriously looked at gameplay wise.
Tanks need to be seriously looked at gameplay wise.
MNK & BRD need reworks.

My dream would be Geomancer as a Lifesteal/barrier healer that has a higher focus on DPSing to heal and create barriers. I don’t think the devs have either the guts or the imagination to implement an interesting take on a Healer like that though so it’ll likely be added as a DPS or a clone of old Nature themed WHM if its added at all. Feels bad to have such a pessimistic view on the devs but they’ve done nothing to inspire much hope for a new healer or the existing ones...

Holy crap, people, calm down. If posts get any longer we're gonna need to download them on Kindle!

For as much as people hate on the concept of time magic in 14, we are currently playing through Time Magic the expansion.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

For as much as people hate on the concept of time magic in 14, we are currently playing through Time Magic the expansion.

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From what I understand, people don't hate time magic, what they hate is that AST had it's time magic stripped away from it and then having that be the excuse for having a time mage.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

From what I understand, people don't hate time magic, what they hate is that AST had it's time magic stripped away from it and then having that be the excuse for having a time mage.

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I mean, I took the removal of time magic as being indicative of them trying to streamline Astro so it fits more with the core identity it has, that of divination and fate manipulation, along with the star bit. It may open things up for Time Mage, much like the changes to White Mage open things up for Geomancer, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're just changes that make sense for solidifying the jobs a bit more. If those changes were made to let new jobs fit in theme wise I'd blame it on the people who kept saying "Well White Mage/Astrologian are just Geomancer/Time Mage", as it would just be responding to those (false) complaints.