One dungeon per patch!?

It all just depends on what we get in return. As long as its battle content in return for taking away the dungeon and not another jumping puzzle. I doubt whatever they put the resources aside for will be ready in 5.2

Until they find a way to make dungeons interesting, I'm fine with having only 1 per patch, hopefully for story reasons.

Dungeons stopped being fun several years ago for me...and actually started being downright annoying by the first half of the last expansion.

Since expa launch I've probably found a ShB dungeon twice, if that.

If they want to invest map makers and assets designers into places I'm going to see for more than 15 minutes, I'm down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Derio

It all just depends on what we get in return. As long as its battle content in return for taking away the dungeon and not another jumping puzzle. I doubt whatever they put the resources aside for will be ready in 5.2

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Likelyhood some of the content we have already gotten has been a product of removing a dungeons, which says good things because 5.1 was packed full.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Until they find a way to make dungeons interesting, I'm fine with having only 1 per patch, hopefully for story reasons.

Dungeons stopped being fun several years ago for me...and actually started being downright annoying by the first half of the last expansion.

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I think a big part of that was them trying to fit in two completely different dungeons into a single patch which meant that the design had to suffer because of it.

The odd numbered patches (where they focused on just one dungeon) felt like they had more oomph in everything. Better designed areas, more to explore(albeit still on a line) and just a lot more character. When you get to the even numbered ones 4.4 with the Burn is the closest I can say we hit those odd numbered points but that's also just a desert. So it's pretty bare in what it is.

I think Grand Cosmos is a step in the right direction with more varied boss designs for fights, but dungeons themselves seem to be very hit and miss for people. I really like the last boss but many I talk to personally don't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Technically true, but it is something to be miffed about if he enjoyed the content they took away...

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And that's ok. The issue is he's in a thread complaining about a decrease in dungeon content and then at the same time complaining about other content added that he feels is more of the same when dungeon is also more of the same. If he just prefers dungeon content, then that's all he has to say rather than try to take issues with how the other contents added are "same old stuff in new wrapping" when dungeon is exactly that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

Seems like someone don't want to read and just pulling sentences of of context. Don't worry, you will get your new garden stuff or a new game in golden saucer and be happy with it.

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I don't even engage in those stuff. I actually prefer dungeon content and your argument is still nonsensical, in context.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by linay

And that's ok. The issue is he's in a thread complaining about a decrease in dungeon content and then at the same time complaining about other content added that he feels is more of the same when dungeon is also more of the same. If he just prefers dungeon content, then that's all he has to say rather than try to take issues with how the other contents added are "same old stuff in new wrapping" when dungeon is exactly that.

I don't even engage in those stuff. I actually prefer dungeon content and your argument is still nonsensical, in context.

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>Saying that if they moving resources, they should do it to improve battle content we have and make something new, instead of making NON battle content from it.
>nonsensical
I dont think you're a very wise human being.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

>Saying that if they moving resources, they should do it to improve battle content we have and make something new, instead of making NON battle content from it.
>nonsensical
I dont think you're a very wise human being.

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Except they have made new battle content: Ultimate, BA (Eureka in general), Masked Carnival (BLU in general), new PVP modes, Rathalos trial.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by linay

Except they have made new battle content: Ultimate, BA (Eureka in general), Masked Carnival (BLU in general), new PVP modes, Rathalos trial.

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And the only 2 real fresh ideas here is Eureka(which is improved Diadem) and Rathalos. You just dont understand the idea of something "new", especially with release of expansions. But worry not, we will talk about same topic, cause nothing will change in 4 years.
>new PVP modes
Maybe they should try to fix damage registration, instead of wasting resources on new maps with 3 cursed sides. But hey, they wont, because no one talks about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

And the only 2 real fresh ideas here is Eureka(which is improved Diadem) and Rathalos. You just dont understand the idea of something "new", especially with release of expansions. But worry not, we will talk about same topic, cause nothing will change in 4 years.
>new PVP modes
Maybe they should try to fix damage registration, instead of wasting resources on new maps with 3 cursed sides. But hey, they wont, because no one talks about it.

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And again, dungeon isn't something "new" in the same way you don't consider those something "new." Regardless, they are content.

If you want to discuss about where their development focus should go, make a new thread about it. Don't do it in a thread discussing less dungeon and then complain about nothing "new" when dungeon is the typical example of not new.

normally i advocate against less content but in this instance, i wouldn't really mind less dungeons since they don't add a whole lot to the game outside of padding roulettes. that said though i would hope each new dungeon going forward has a unique armor set and not just reskins

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

And the only 2 real fresh ideas here is Eureka(which is improved Diadem) and Rathalos.

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So basically we got those from the loss of 3 dungeons. That's a good trade off! And don't forget that the "improved Diadem" is 4 open maps with its own dungeon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I don't think this is true, though I think the reality isn't any better. I think the devs designs do have cohesion, it's just that their implementation takes far longer, and the way that content is sliced into chunks is poorly handled. Take Eureka for example: In hindsight, the grand plan for that content looks good, the original intention was for things like logos actions to be a core part of the experience, but we didn't get them at launch, which (particularly in Pagos) soured the experience because what we were offered was only half the package. A more recent example is Ishgardian restoration, Yoshi P has outright said that this offering isn't the full experience and what players are asking for is already planned.

I think you are right about the learned lessons, but its like they have the cohesive design for 100% and chopping it up into 25% pieces and giving us those (without telling us what the 100% is), what people want is an initial 100% and then to get additional content updates to expand upon that 100%.

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A good point, and it's what makes me wish the GDC and the like had more insight into MMO development, specifically, because I can't seem to find enough samples to draw real examples of what good prototyping and bad prototyping each look like. Thus, I'll have to fall back on hypotheticals and abstracts for now, which is... far from ideal.

Let's say we're building something like Eureka in the next year, but with a lot more features and a more compelling, less grindy experience intended by its apex.

"Good" prototyping:

Player's attentions shouldn't be drawn to new modes of play until those modes are fleshed out well enough to be compelling. You want to avoid complaints by adding the modular components you wish to test prior to the new mode's release into existing modes that aren't flush with criticisms. (The only exception would be if there's a heavily criticized mode into which the components can fit and would fix some of the issues perceived in that mode, in which case you start there instead.) In that way, they seem like an unexpected treat in something players are already used to. (Or, it seems slow progress towards polishing the existing game, rather than abandoning (n) for (n+1), which tends to prompt increasingly soured or more critical perceptions of each new mode.)

Regardless of overall design philosophy, feedback tapers off with age, so any flaws in a new mode are going to have an even larger impact on its player impressions of competence than will the positive effects of the mode's novelty (and that's assuming, perhaps wrongly, it is even truly unique or novel), so it needs to feel like a complete experience upon release. This does not mean that every new feature needs to be in place, but there should be no obvious issues onto which players can latch and the components should play out newly enough not to be met with complaints that the content is just more of the same or repackaged mechanics, etc.

So, let's say wanted to make a compelling experience of Anemos for the start. A few more features would likely be necessary. We'd want to include these features in a way that doesn't necessarily lead players to expect that new content is on the way (as a side-effect, to be clear, of having a reasonable fit and purpose among existing modes).

To take a spitball approach for now, let's say we start by making a big deal out of the upcoming Monster Hunter crossover; we can claim to be preparing the way for it or just leave our motives implied at best. At any rate, we start by revamping our hunt system somewhat. It reintegrates B, A, and S ranks with the general hunt board and Hunt Logs, introduces a tracking system for A ranks that works a bit like a miniature quest chain wherein your party hunts down these mobs, and scales hunt difficulty and rewards when tracked to the item level of your party, moving away from hunt trains and towards scaled, less zerg-ish party content. If possible, we also try to include fixes to load priorities so players can more easily see their own party and the boss when in massive fights. To the players, this already seems like an answer to common complaints about the hunt system. In truth, it does, but it also paves the way for a more interesting experience in Anemos.

In our next preparatory patch, we introduce our Monster Hunter bosses as sort of the apex experiences for the previously given system -- an S-rank expansion of the tracking system that now involves multiple interwoven party tracking quests. One party prevents Rathalos from grabbing and running off with... giant buffalo or what have you... for food. Another besieges its nest, and a third finds a way to lock it within once it's drawn back, etc., etc. Now, that's more resource-expensive than simply making a standard Extreme fight out of it, but it gives you opportunities for Anemos and beyond. Further, make Rathalos drop actual crafting ingrediants to be used in making his stuff; anyone can talk to the hunters, one of which now has a work station by some forge in Kugane, to have the stuff the made for them for a fee, but players with an especially well-geared crafter can use fewer materials to guarantee an HQ Rathalos item or some similar reward. (Again, Eureka prep.) On the more casual side of things, you increase mob kill EXP in the open world and bring back Behests, which now allow for a bit more free-form patrols and forays and allow successfully cleared encounters to spawn stronger monsters, up to the point where parties can enjoyably EXP grind in some areas (albeit still not as efficiently as dungeon spamming, but often made up for if the mobs carry useful crafting ingredients). On the surface it's sort of a change towards "Play as you like" and better utilization of the open world, but it's also pivotal for making Anemos mob-slaughter feel more intrinsically rewarding.

So by now we have just enough to make Anemos truly compelling. All we need now is to not alienate broad sections of players (e.g. those with friends who play [Eureka] more often or less often than they do) and design the map and mobs in such a way as to make it feel more about danger than grind. Needless to say, you squash the total number of levels, and/or the leveling curve, and allow for level sync to one's party. You tune mobs more for risk-reward than grind-efficiency by giving them powerful enough stats, skills, and maybe even some AI or obligatory links (pulling one pulls the pack) for variety. You use the spawns of more powerful mobs, prior to the NMs, to vary the grind experience in a given mob zone. You include tracks system triggers and clues to nudge players out of their comfort zones and into more or less populated spaces as useful to preserve the intended gameplay. Etc., etc.

Though, this also means picking the right threads to start from and work towards over the Eureka series. If you bother with a system like the elemental wheel, for instance, you must make it do more than just punish fighting in zones where you're likely to pick up multiple mob types or where tanks have to excessively compromise between enmity (as a consequence of damage) and defense. If you want to make the prior work, make it a real threat that can't just be toggled about. Otherwise, skip it, and spend that time instead on, say... turning Anemos more into the Land of the Winds through some unique mechanic (though you can certainly have it be less of an impact in your introductory zone than in later ones) and developing craftable gear that makes use of the Anemos NMs as per what the Monster Hunter crossover (and Rathalos) started.

You can then guess where Pagos will go: more monsters directly usable for crafting, and perhaps more horizontal progression or the like, such as to set up camps to deal with the harsh blizzards (not everyone needs a Cloak of Winter or the like, but someone will at least need a Winter's Shroud tent which they can later disassemble into personal items). Rather than just grinding your way through everything or only doing your challenge logs once per week you'd have things to target. I want to kill a Dragon because... Heart of Winter and that really awesome Dragoon armor. We need Wendigo furs for... a community base-camp up in the northeast. We want to kill the Spriggin Queen to steal her consumables for cloaking ourselves in the snow or to turn into a craftable which, when equipped, gives us access to that skill via a CD. Etc., etc. Rather than just throwing in systems for the sake of systems or artificial longevity, we try to engage more with risk-reward than mere gather-grind efficiency and give each mob a deeper impact on the surrounding mode, e.g. through the skills it reveals to you (which higher rank versions are likely to repeat with even more danger and less warning), what it helps spawn, and what you can craft from it.

To an extent, generalization, such as what the Eurekan kettle did for us, can be a good thing in that it allows anyone to join a party anywhere in the zone -- just as a squished leveling curve would have helped in Anemos, especially in the absence of leveling sync. Relic gear is of course iconic and generally liked. But there needs to at least be something to vary that experience, rather than just '95% literally any mob' and '5% Pazuzu', or the like. Everyone should make use of the top NMs in about the same proportion, but there are all sorts of things you can do to maintain accessibility while providing variety. For instance, what about custom crafting? Maybe I can use more Wind NM ingredients and get different Relic armor effects (at least within Eureka), similar to the HW "build your own Relic('s secondary stats)" system. (Of course, personally, I'd prefer to skip the Relic armor in favor of Eureka-specific Relic items usable by all for their ilvl, but adding to the Eureka experience, especially as we change what all can be done with the Eureka zones over the course of the series, but I get that for many content merely equates to a way to most efficiently gear up or to most efficiently gear up when broke and unwilling to run remotely difficult content, so... idk).

For contrast, "bad" (or at least mediocre) prototyping:

What we got.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by linay

And again, dungeon isn't something "new" in the same way you don't consider those something "new." Regardless, they are content.

If you want to discuss about where their development focus should go, make a new thread about it. Don't do it in a thread discussing less dungeon and then complain about nothing "new" when dungeon is the typical example of not new.

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Maybe you should go somewhere else, golden saucer boi?
You can dance with your friends in Limsa and tell them how great this game is, because you keep answering same thing to every person, like a bot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

Maybe you should go somewhere else, golden saucer boi?
You can dance with your friends in Limsa and tell them how great this game is, because you keep answering same thing to every person, like a bot.

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Again with the nonsensical insinuations, so no reason for me to respond differently when you're stuck making nonsensical arguments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A good point, and it's what makes me wish the GDC and the like had more insight into MMO development, specifically, because I can't seem to find enough samples to draw real examples of what good prototyping and bad prototyping each look like. Thus, I'll have to fall back on hypotheticals and abstracts for now, which is... far from ideal.

Let's say we're building something like Eureka in the next year, but with a lot more features and a more compelling, less grindy experience intended by its apex.

"Good" prototyping:

Player's attentions shouldn't be drawn to new modes of play until those modes are fleshed out well enough to be compelling. You want to avoid complaints by adding the modular components you wish to test prior to the new mode's release into existing modes that aren't flush with criticisms. (The only exception would be if there's a heavily criticized mode into which the components can fit and would fix some of the issues perceived in that mode, in which case you start there instead.) In that way, they seem like an unexpected treat in something players are already used to. (Or, it seems slow progress towards polishing the existing game, rather than abandoning (n) for (n+1), which tends to prompt increasingly soured or more critical perceptions of each new mode.)

Regardless of overall design philosophy, feedback tapers off with age, so any flaws in a new mode are going to have an even larger impact on its player impressions of competence than will the positive effects of the mode's novelty (and that's assuming, perhaps wrongly, it is even truly unique or novel), so it needs to feel like a complete experience upon release. This does not mean that every new feature needs to be in place, but there should be no obvious issues onto which players can latch and the components should play out newly enough not to be met with complaints that the content is just more of the same or repackaged mechanics, etc.

So, let's say wanted to make a compelling experience of Anemos for the start. A few more features would likely be necessary. We'd want to include these features in a way that doesn't necessarily lead players to expect that new content is on the way (as a side-effect, to be clear, of having a reasonable fit and purpose among existing modes).

To take a spitball approach for now, let's say we start by making a big deal out of the upcoming Monster Hunter crossover; we can claim to be preparing the way for it or just leave our motives implied at best. At any rate, we start by revamping our hunt system somewhat. It reintegrates B, A, and S ranks with the general hunt board and Hunt Logs, introduces a tracking system for A ranks that works a bit like a miniature quest chain wherein your party hunts down these mobs, and scales hunt difficulty and rewards when tracked to the item level of your party, moving away from hunt trains and towards scaled, less zerg-ish party content.(Reader insert here: would be great if this ultimately culminated into a guildhest as a great way to re-invigorate that content that seems to collect dust) If possible, we also try to include fixes to load priorities so players can more easily see their own party and the boss when in massive fights. To the players, this already seems like an answer to common complaints about the hunt system. In truth, it does, but it also paves the way for a more interesting experience in Anemos.

In our next preparatory patch, we introduce our Monster Hunter bosses as sort of the apex experiences for the previously given system -- an S-rank expansion of the tracking system that now involves multiple interwoven party tracking quests. One party prevents Rathalos from grabbing and running off with... giant buffalo or what have you... for food. Another besieges its nest, and a third finds a way to lock it within once it's drawn back, etc., etc. Now, that's more resource-expensive than simply making a standard Extreme fight out of it, but it gives you opportunities for Anemos and beyond. Further, make Rathalos drop actual crafting ingrediants to be used in making his stuff; anyone can talk to the hunters, one of which now has a work station by some forge in Kugane, to have the stuff the made for them for a fee, but players with an especially well-geared crafter can use fewer materials to guarantee an HQ Rathalos item or some similar reward. (Again, Eureka prep.) On the more casual side of things, you increase mob kill EXP in the open world and bring back Behests, which now allow for a bit more free-form patrols and forays and allow successfully cleared encounters to spawn stronger monsters, up to the point where parties can enjoyably EXP grind in some areas (albeit still not as efficiently as dungeon spamming, but often made up for if the mobs carry useful crafting ingredients). On the surface it's sort of a change towards "Play as you like" and better utilization of the open world, but it's also pivotal for making Anemos mob-slaughter feel more intrinsically rewarding.

So by now we have just enough to make Anemos truly compelling. All we need now is to not alienate broad sections of players (e.g. those with friends who play [Eureka] more often or less often than they do and design the map and mobs in such a way as to make it feel more about danger than grind. Needless to say, you squash the total number of levels, and/or the leveling curve, and allow for level sync to one's party. You tune mobs more for risk-reward than grind-efficiency by giving them powerful enough stats, skills, and maybe even some AI or obligatory links (pulling one pulls the pack) for variety. You use the spawns of more powerful mobs, prior to the NMs, to vary the grind experience in a given mob zone. You include tracks system triggers and clues to nudge players out of their comfort zones and into more or less populated spaces as useful to preserve the intended gameplay. Etc., etc.

Though, this also means picking the right threads to start from and work towards over the Eureka series. If you bother with a system like the elemental wheel, for instance, you must make it do more than just punish fighting in zones where you're likely to pick up multiple mob types or where tanks have to excessively compromise between enmity (as a consequence of damage) and defense. If you want to make the prior work, make it a real threat that can't just be toggled about. Otherwise, skip it, and spend that time instead on, say... turning Anemos more into the Land of the Winds through some unique mechanic (though you can certainly have it be less of an impact in your introductory zone than in later ones) and developing craftable gear that makes use of the Anemos NMs as per what the Monster Hunter crossover (and Rathalos) started.

You can then guess where Pagos will go: more monsters directly usable for crafting, and perhaps more horizontal progression or the like, such as to set up camps to deal with the harsh blizzards (not everyone needs a Cloak of Winter or the like, but someone will at least need a Winter's Shroud tent which they can later disassemble into personal items). Rather than just grinding your way through everything or only doing your challenge logs once per week you'd have things to target. I want to kill a Dragon because... Heart of Winter and that really awesome Dragoon armor. We need Wendigo furs for... a community base-camp up in the northeast. We want to kill the Spriggin Queen to steal her consumables for cloaking ourselves in the snow or to turn into a craftable which, when equipped, gives us access to that skill via a CD. Etc., etc. Rather than just throwing in systems for the sake of systems or artificial longevity, we try to engage more with risk-reward than mere gather-grind efficiency and give each mob a deeper impact on the surrounding mode, e.g. through the skills it reveals to you (which higher rank versions are likely to repeat with even more danger and less warning), what it helps spawn, and what you can craft from it.

To an extent, generalization, such as what the Eurekan kettle did for us, can be a good thing in that it allows anyone to join a party anywhere in the zone -- just as a squished leveling curve would have helped in Anemos, especially in the absence of leveling sync. Relic gear is of course iconic and generally liked. But there needs to at least be something to vary that experience, rather than just '95% literally any mob' and '5% Pazuzu', or the like. Everyone should make use of the top NMs in about the same proportion, but there are all sorts of things you can do to maintain accessibility while providing variety. For instance, what about custom crafting? Maybe I can use more Wind NM ingredients and get different Relic armor effects (at least within Eureka), similar to the HW "build your own Relic('s secondary stats)" system. (Of course, personally, I'd prefer to skip the Relic armor in favor of Eureka-specific Relic items usable by all for their ilvl, but adding to the Eureka experience, especially as we change what all can be done with the Eureka zones over the course of the series, but I get that for many content merely equates to a way to most efficiently gear up or to most efficiently gear up when broke and unwilling to run remotely difficult content, so... idk).

For contrast, "bad" (or at least mediocre) prototyping:

What we got.

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This was such a good read. I take it this was written sometime during Stormblood, right? Doesn't matter. The bolded parts without my inserts are not just points I'd like to see but they mostly bolded because they represent to me the one and true thing Eureka failed to do for me: being engaging content. It's hard for me to acquiesce Eureka as engaging content when the immediate feedback you get from other players is "it's fun if you're with friends." or "its fun if you're watching netflix" or "it's fun because you can just relax mindlessly until X pops". When you have this type of lasting content where it's fun is exceedingly contingent on third party interaction as means of complete distraction, it means the content has failed to be engaging. Now for some, that might actually be fine, as they say it's all about the experience and fun is subjective. But when engagement can be measured objectively and Eureka didn't bring that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

This was such a good read. I take it this was written sometime during Stormblood, right? Doesn't matter. The bolded parts without my inserts are not just points I'd like to see but they mostly bolded because they represent to me the one and true thing Eureka failed to do for me: being engaging content. It's hard for me to acquiesce Eureka as engaging content when the immediate feedback you get from other players is "it's fun if you're with friends." or "its fun if you're watching netflix" or "it's fun because you can just relax mindlessly until X pops". When you have this type of lasting content where it's fun is exceedingly contingent on third party interaction as means of complete distraction, it means the content has failed to be engaging. Now for some, that might actually be fine, as they say it's all about the experience and fun is subjective. But when engagement can be measured objectively and Eureka didn't bring that.

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Written during Stormblood? No. This was on-the-spot spitballing to give an example of weaving in components earlier and being a bit more ambitious.

Edit: Glad to see I was on the right track though, even if without much time available (was just between shifts).

It's always so surreal coming to these forums and seeing people be just so anti-eureka when I and many others think it's been one of the best and most social content additions to this game. (I'm hoping that the more independent relic stuff to come just means "you don't need to do a fate to get the mats you need". Like really, just take the good and expand on it and don't make people have to do fates with others and boom).

Dngs are like the prefect example of expensive fluff content that takes resources away from the possible big meaty additions to the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

Dngs are like the prefect example of expensive fluff content that takes resources away from the possible big meaty additions to the game.

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Just out of curiosity, which are the big meaty additions you'd like to see more of, and what spares it the inefficiency of dungeon design (e.g. time spent on soundtracks, new enemy models, new maps, new terrain, new doodads, and arguably new gear models)?

The lesson is to not request features like the umbrella because when they make umbrellas they have to reduce content like dungeons. So please stop requesting features otherwise if people request other things we'll have 0 dungeons

Instructions unclear, requested more umbrellas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Instructions unclear, requested more umbrellas.

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Stop stop stop. I'm getting so pissed I don't care about umbrellas. I don't want umbrellas but if you keep requesting umbrellas everyone will have zero dungeons is that what you want

Maybe I like umbrellas more than corridors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Just out of curiosity, which are the big meaty additions you'd like to see more of, and what spares it the inefficiency of dungeon design (e.g. time spent on soundtracks, new enemy models, new maps, new terrain, new doodads, and arguably new gear models)?

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I wouldn't add gear to the list, they can and do release gear with or without the dngs. Gear and glam is more so the reward or carrot at the end of the stick that is a dng (Tis why you get fewer chest from trust)... they use gear and glam as the motivator for most all content so if gear work aint going to a dng then it's going to something else. Or "Oh, hey! Here's some new crafted gear (that would have been in a dng)!.

If you want a simple answer that checks off all your boxes nice and clean ... I legit point to everything they already told us we're getting. Give me this new fishing boat thing I'm not gonna use (cause I don't fish) but I know others who love fishing will partake in. Give me this new Ishgardian Restoration (and housing zone) and Diadem update that I fully plan to partake in. Give me more new PVP maps cause I LOVE the newest one and I want more PVP. Give me more Eureka like content cause it's legit 1 of the best things to touch this game. Give me more Deep Dngs aka HoH and PoTD.

I consider these all meaty content worthy of a decrease in "Mob tunnels" I have to push through for glam and tomes personally.

If you want a more selective thing I'm sure many on the forum want that def checks some but not all the boxes, I go to an old fav.
What needs modelers, riggers, texture and concept artist, tons of QA, animators and sound design/ Voice work? New character models aka races (or in this case the missing genders. Male Viera/ Female Hrothgar).

I've long given up hope of having a female Hrothgar in this game because everything they have said on the topic boils down to "we just can't handle releasing the amount of content at the rate we currently are if we have to support more player models". Welp, reducing the amount of dngs they have to pump out would certainly come across as a reduction in the amount of content from patch to patch. I felt there was no way to bother even hoping for the missing genders without a decrease in SOMETHING cause of how they talk about it ... and now they're taking another slash at what I would call the most time consuming yet least impactful content in the game because they realize that there's already a ton of dngs and it's not the type of content that keeps people engaged.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Maybe I like umbrellas more than corridors.

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It's meemed on but it's legit one of the "coming soon" features I'm most excised about.
Prob cause I'm the kinda person who has their character take shelter when it's raining if they're just chilling and not doing anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

I'm actually the opposite.

I prefer the more and deeper route. The reasons I like Alliance Raids and Dungeons, over 8-Mans and Trials is that Trials are little more than a stripped down boss battle and a single fight. That's it. If there is ever anything that gets boring fast its the same old single fight over and over again which is what an 8-man Trial is.

It feels like skipping straight to the Boss without ever doing the dungeon crawl. So they feel like little more than candy or desert.

When I do either an Alliance Raid or a Dungeon I feel like I'm getting a full course meal. I feel "satisfied" when I'm done...

...not so with a Trial or 8-man.

While its true that running the same Dungeon over and over will eventually get boring... in no way does it get boring faster than an 8 Man which is only a single fight over and over.

Can you imagine if they tore out all the content of a dungeon and skipped straight to the final fight over and over again and that's all you ever played?
Well that's an 8 man Trial.

At least with an Alliance Raid I am "full" when I'm done with it. Same with a full Dungeon crawl even though they too leave me a little hungry as they seem to be so much shorter nowadays.

Now the real kicker here is, I tried Eureka too, and I didn't mind it. It was ok and I'd go back again. But soon I was right back to running Dungeons and Alliance Raids again with the occasional 8-Man Trial. Honestly if Eureka does have things like the old FFXI dungeons, I just might hop in there to go explore them.

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Reasons why i prefered Alexander over Omega and Eden, small little adventure to the boss even if not challanging, a small place showing you its size and that it exists while Omega and Eden you just drop in and fight, lazy design in my eyes.

Eden at least more interessting due story behind the bosses, while Omega was literally a Fanservice dungeon with the bosses not connected at all to it, you could had 12 times Mogry King with 12 different crowns and it wouldn't had made a difference with what Omega made up.

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Originally Posted by BroFists

Stop stop stop. I'm getting so pissed I don't care about umbrellas. I don't want umbrellas but if you keep requesting umbrellas everyone will have zero dungeons is that what you want

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You want us to request more umbrellas????? OK!! I WANT 100 variations of an umbrella mount, weapon, and minions!!

New job; Shader
Weapon: Umbrella
Gear inspiration: Mary Poppins

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

New job; Shader
Weapon: Umbrella
Gear inspiration: Mary Poppins

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You may jest, but I'd love to see a job with umbrella as a weapon. More in a chinese or japanese style, but still.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

You may jest, but I'd love to see a job with umbrella as a weapon. More in a chinese or japanese style, but still.

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https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DistortedU...restricted.gif

British > Asian

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DistortedU...restricted.gif

British > Asian

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Wont argue with that, but that's just a glorified gun, and the melee style in that scene wouldn't translate well to an MMO. Eastern martial arts moves on the other hand...

Shame I cant find any good gifs from Gintama.

I'm not sure how to feel about the one dungeon per patch thing. On one hand, it means more content elsewhere. On the other hand, I don't think SE should have to sacrifice something in order to make something else. This is a giant company that makes bank even when it has major losses now and then. But after reading around, it seems like they mostly hire contractors with very few full-timers, so... That's my gues as to why we're even seeing sacrifices like this.

On a selfish note, I don't think this Ultimate content will be content I'll personally invest my time in like I do with roulettes. Expert roulettes are already a struggle because there are so few dungeons in them to diversify them. So, adding only one per patch instead of two will exacerbate that "problem," I think. I'm hoping they'll keep all level 80 dungeons as expert during this phase, that way we have... like... some dungeons to actually roulette on.

I'm a big fan of 24-man alliances especially, but I also like 4-man content. I like the "dungeon" feel as opposed to an "arena" feel for PvE if that makes sense? So, I doubt Ultimates will be up my alley. Meanwhile, my amigo is way into arena/trialesque content, so he'll probably be all over this. Speaks to some, not to others. Though, even so, he's concerned about expert roulette, too.

I'm willing to wait and see just what other content is being worked on with those resources before passing judgement, but honestly, dungeons are only really fun the first time or two anyway. Amaurot was incredible the first time, a wonderful capstone on the expansion and a great climactic build-up to the final showdown, but now it's just another pile of tomes to collect and gear to desynth.

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Originally Posted by linay

Again with the nonsensical insinuations, so no reason for me to respond differently when you're stuck making nonsensical arguments.

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It could be easier if you could read pal, instead of taking things out of context : )
About umbrellas stuff, that's what people really like to see in game, way to go! My only hope is the new eureka in this game, hope they won't screw it up.
GCBTW

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Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR

I'm not sure how to feel about the one dungeon per patch thing. On one hand, it means more content elsewhere. On the other hand, I don't think SE should have to sacrifice something in order to make something else. This is a giant company that makes bank even when it has major losses now and then. But after reading around, it seems like they mostly hire contractors with very few full-timers, so... That's my gues as to why we're even seeing sacrifices like this.

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To be fair, hiring battle designers is not an easy task. MMOs aren't a popular market nor is console/PC gaming nearly as prominent in Japan as it is the west. Most developers with the skill set Yoshida wants go into the mobile game industry because it practically prints money. And it isn't as though they can hire outside Japan since they'd require someone who is fluent in Japanese. FFXIV's team is actually among the largest for any MMO on the market; surpassing even WoW. They just have decidedly few battle designers. In fact, the person who designed Chocobo racing was trained to eventually become a battle designer.

Now SE could probably throw huge amounts of money to attract the right people. But what incentive do they have when FFXIV has not only ran smoothly for years but has gained new players consistency ever since it's re-launch?

I have said it in another thread but since my last posting it seems clear here too, there is no good future for dungeons in this game. The most vocal community despises them and the developers seem to take to them, further reducing the number of them instead of redesigning them to be more engaging. Eventually we might end up with no dungeons at all in an expansion and just small solo instancted runs for MSQ and all Trials and Raiding for the rest. Even though people are trying to sell the idea that we got Ultimates pretty much for free, I don't think that is the case, even reusing assets there was time and energy involved in creating them.

One dungeon per patch is fine if they find another way to funnel "interest of gameplay" into.


I, for example, enjoy playing the game itself. I love to go into a Roulette, to meet strangers (and outright weirdos!) and to see if we can pull off whatever that dungeon wants us to do. I enjoy being Red Mage, I love their animations, clothes, the flow. I do not need to see new things every month. Look how long for example League of Legends is being on top of the hill with effectively only one map - the "Summoner's Rift"? I played today, it will be 9 years in a couple of months.

What I think FF needs is a long-term goal that you can do in small steps. In Guild Wars 2, there is the mastery system that I absolutely love. For those who are not familiar with it: After you finish levelling, you keep gaining EXP which you invest in personal stats. E.g. you "level" once to be able to use the glider. Then you can choose if you want to level up to use less energy/endurance while gliding, or if you have more precise steering.. This made me log in and play for 1 or 2 hours because I knew I can now glide onto places unreachable before. Other masteries were like "not being poisoned by certain fumes" or "able to understand native folk lanuage X" which unlocked merchants and NPC locked behind said mortal dangers. I'd like to evolve my Lalafell's skills further. There is a level which I think is like knowledge of the profession. And then there is the iLevel, supposed to be our equipment (duh). But our own characters are still the same. We can not swim faster or sprint longer. I'd love to skill e.g. 3% more chance for Critical Strike or adding 20 more Red Mana or whatever expands it. Making me a "Deep Red" like my mentor X'Run, not just "The Red". Set Milestones per profession. Reaching certain damage thresholds, critting this amount of times, Vercuring 100,000 HP, all this stuff. Give me "medals" that I can stick into my profile. Goals to work towards. iLevel and glamour is not enough, so people ask for one of the few combat features left: Dungeons.


There would be many possibilites to keep me playing/levelling: Level up? +10 Red Mana. Up to 150 for longer/more Enchanted Rapier fights. Or "gain 3% more Red Mana". Then 5%. 20%. Your 500th Verflare. It deals now 10% more as you gained training. +10% range and Crit of "Corps a Corps". +20% change. Acrobatic? Killing an enemy with your Rapier resets Corps a Corps/Displacement (and that other skill tied to them). Nothing would break the game as it's on top of existing skills, but it'd be so cool to have a tab in the profile adding skillpoints to it to become a "Red Mage+".





They tried that with e.g. the Zodiarc weapons, but RNG is never a good thing. I for example stopped after the 2nd upgrade because I want significant progress done by myself or with people, but not grinding fates for RNG. Also, I can think of the developers simply having a creativity fatigue. The dungeons here are super diverse, from old-school, actual dungeons like Tam Tara up to spacey Research Facilities with hexagon floor tiles like in 60s B-movies.


Sincerely,
https://imgur.com/9mjol58.png

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

snip

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https://media.giphy.com/media/l4pTiA...8Kis/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I have said it in another thread but since my last posting it seems clear here too, there is no good future for dungeons in this game. The most vocal community despises them and the developers seem to take to them, further reducing the number of them instead of redesigning them to be more engaging. Eventually we might end up with no dungeons at all in an expansion and just small solo instancted runs for MSQ and all Trials and Raiding for the rest. Even though people are trying to sell the idea that we got Ultimates pretty much for free, I don't think that is the case, even reusing assets there was time and energy involved in creating them.

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That won't happen. I don't mind dungeons, but if sacrificing them means we may get something better, or something new, then I'll be fine with it. I've kinda been burned out on dungeons since 2.3 (as interesting Tam-Tara HM was with its story, the fights are really boring).

I miss old school MMO dungeon crawling. I suppose dungeons have never been their strongest product offering, though.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

That won't happen. I don't mind dungeons, but if sacrificing them means we may get something better, or something new, then I'll be fine with it.

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Well the thing is some people like dungeons and if they remove one dungeon and give you something new that they absolutely hate... will those people still be okay with it or will they throw a tantrum? This will be interesting to watch.