Labyrinth and Syrcus Tower...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalbee

Your opinion is not necessarily correct just because you use the most condescending language, buttercup

---

People find hun condescending...?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/57...731520.gif?v=1
Anything is offensive these days...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalbee

Your opinion is not necessarily correct just because you use the most condescending language, buttercup

---

I lose patience with those who excuse, (again) inadvertently or not, the behavior already outlined in this thread, hun. Also, I must have missed the part where facts are now opinions... you know, the fact that people admit to gaming the system? Yeah, that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jybril

People find hun condescending...?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/57...731520.gif?v=1
Anything is offensive these days...

---

It, like any other seeming-pet name, is likely only to be found offensive in certain context or based upon how someone reads said context it's delivered in. I use 'hon' often myself, but only with friends. Mostly because pet-names like that feel a little too intimate to use for any random stranger I land in a group with or am discussing with on a forum, but also because certain context can make it come off as if I'm speaking down to someone.

Granted, I don't think the poster in question was meaning it in that way, but their irritation at the situation of people cheesing ilevels rather than just taking what the roulette would naturally give them might have made it come across as demeaning. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

Efficiency. There's a minimum and a maximum priciple.

Minimum priciple: Get a fixed reward with as little effort aus possible.
Maximum prnciple: Use a fixed amount of effort to gain a reward that's a big as possible.

Since the reward in roulettes is fixed and the effort is variable, the only reasonable thing to do is minimizing your effort to get the fixed reward.

Now if all Raids took the same amount of time, but the rewards varied, people would jump on the one that grants the biggest reward for the fixed effort.

---

No, that's not the "only reasonable thing to do". Some people play to truly enjoy the game play. That is reasonable as well. I'm a software engineer so yes I understand the importance of efficiency. Sometimes, in entertainment, that's not the primary objective though. Sometimes it's just to have fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jybril

People find hun condescending...?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/57...731520.gif?v=1
Anything is offensive these days...

---

I didn't say offensive, just condescending: adjective. having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

It, like any other seeming-pet name, is likely only to be found offensive in certain context or based upon how someone reads said context it's delivered in. I use 'hon' often myself, but only with friends. Mostly because pet-names like that feel a little too intimate to use for any random stranger I land in a group with or am discussing with on a forum, but also because certain context can make it come off as if I'm speaking down to someone.

Granted, I don't think the poster in question was meaning it in that way, but their irritation at the situation of people cheesing ilevels rather than just taking what the roulette would naturally give them might have made it come across as demeaning. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

---

Exactly this. The exploit is immensely irritating and I'm quite tired of getting the same two raids in roulette nearly every time I queue. I have no patience at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirhd

Exactly this. The exploit is immensely irritating and I'm quite tired of getting the same two raids in roulette nearly every time I queue. I have no patience at this point.

---

You and me both, sister/brother.

Condescension is not always meant, as a reminder to people. Text is hard to read the tone of, but it's better to not assume everything said to you is meant as an offense!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by niwaar

This doesnt actually work. I've been completely naked and gotten Monastery before.

The fact is, that you don't need to unlock all 9 in order to open up the roulette. There are a good amount of people queuing for Alliance Roulette who never unlocked the higher level choices.

---

^ This is 100% true! Me and several players I know don't unlock raids because we come back to the expansion late/or during new expansion and old alliance raids content aren't worth unlocking outside of lore/glamour. We just get poetics gear and move onto next expansion. That said my guess would be more players are on the casual side and don't have all raids unlocked hence it being weighted to ARR raids. Also my alts only have syrcus and CT, so they will also force you into raids you don't want :( sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalbee

Your opinion is not necessarily correct just because you use the most condescending language, buttercup

---

Their assessment is correct because SerLuke essentially made the argument 'some people who queue into Alliance Raid and pull Laby/Syrcus literally couldn't have gotten anything else, therefore there is no problem.' While ignoring that this thread isn't about those people, it's about the ones who are willfully abusing the system by taking gear off before queue and have been in this thread admitting as such.

Attempting to use a tangential justified circumstance to shut down an argument about abuses is essentially carrying water for the abusers, intentional or not.

In response to your other comment, yes some people will always try to game the system. However, a well built system will minimize the number of people willing or able to do so. Just changing around ilvl requirements for the roulettes would make this kind of instance evasion much harder. People who want the roulette rewards, but feel entitled to not having to do Orbonne or Weeping City or whatever, will have to eat the half hour penalty or hope someone else does before them.

As to the word choice, I'm not sure what the intent of the first statement's hun was. SerLuke putting it in quotations in response was meant as an obvious retort and indicated he likely felt the first usage was patronizing. Mirdh (and Chalbee) italicizing the huns thereafter is indicative of a sharper tone and inflection, and does seem to lean into being more of an intentional barb (along the same lines as addressing someone as boy). Essentially, it may not have been intended to give offense at first, but the later uses certainly do.

Of course, sharp language alone does not invalidate someone's arguments. When people are begrieved by something, it can actually be rather callous or dismissive to expect thorough politeness from them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirhd

yet more patronizing twaddle

---

Oh, bless your heart! I am not disputing whether or not people are gaming the system, darling. I am disputing your value judgment. You think it's bad and should be against the rules. I (and many others) do not, given the current reward structure. Pay attention to the second part, cupcake, the value judgment is the "opinion" in question.


I hope that clears it up for you, hun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalbee

Oh, bless your heart! I am not disputing whether or not people are gaming the system, darling. I am disputing your value judgment. You think it's bad and should be against the rules. I (and many others) do not, given the current reward structure. Pay attention to the second part, cupcake, the value judgment is the "opinion" in question.


I hope that clears it up for you, hun.

---

You know, the only one who is being condescending in this thread now is you. You can't really blame them for responding to you in due recourse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalbee

Oh, bless your heart! I am not disputing whether or not people are gaming the system, darling. I am disputing your value judgment. You think it's bad and should be against the rules. I (and many others) do not, given the current reward structure. Pay attention to the second part, cupcake, the value judgment is the "opinion" in question.


I hope that clears it up for you, hun.

---

I think you should calm down at this point...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

However, a well built system will minimize the number of people willing or able to do so. Just changing around ilvl requirements for the roulettes would make this kind of instance evasion much harder. People who want the roulette rewards, but feel entitled to not having to do Orbonne or Weeping City or whatever, will have to eat the half hour penalty or hope someone else does before them.

---

Partially agree, the system should be adjusted to push people into higher level duties, but again if they don't scale the exp, then there is still no benefit to sticking through Orbonne because a bad Orbonne run just takes too long to be worth it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

You know, the only one who is being condescending in this thread now is you. You can't really blame them for responding to you in due recourse.

---

I thought it was pretty obvious I was exaggerating to make a point, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalbee

Oh, bless your heart! I am not disputing whether or not people are gaming the system, darling. I am disputing your value judgment. You think it's bad and should be against the rules. I (and many others) do not, given the current reward structure. Pay attention to the second part, cupcake, the value judgment is the "opinion" in question.


I hope that clears it up for you, hun.

---

Gaethan_Tessula had the right of it. My first use of "hun" was not meant to be patronizing, but the second was an expression of irritation. Its a word I just use whenever, same way I use it in real life. Of course, SerLuke couldn't have known that, but the fact he got so worked up over one word (like you), focusing on that instead, rather than my argument, says more about him than it does me.... same goes for you.

Really, you're trying far too hard at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalbee

I thought it was pretty obvious I was exaggerating to make a point, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

---

Nah, you were just taking perceived condescension and doing the exact same thing you got so worked up over.

Fighting fire with fire doesn't accomplish anything. Especially when the fire wasn't even legitimate in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirhd

Gaethan_Tessula had the right of it. My first use of "hun" was not meant to be patronizing, but the second was an expression of irritation. Its a word I just use whenever, same way I use it in real life. Of course, SerLuke couldn't have known that, but the fact he got so worked up over one word (like you), focusing on that instead, rather than my argument, says more about him than it does me.... same goes for you.

Really, you're trying far too hard at this point.

---

Again, I was exaggerating to make a point, nobody talks like that in real life (I hope).

And I did actually address the substance of your thoughts as well. I don't think it's wrong to game the system because there is an incentive to do it. Someone proposed a min. iLvl to queue for alliance based on your job level to prevent it from happening, and I think that would be a good idea provided the exp scales appropriately. As it is now, there is no reason not to game the system other than 'some people are tired of LotA/ST' and 'helping new people.'

And, in case you doubt my motivations, I have never cheesed my iLvl to avoid a higher level duty, and the idea didn't even occur to me until I saw this thread. I do whatever the roulette gives me, but I can understand why other people don't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

Nah, you were just taking perceived condescension and doing the exact same thing you got so worked up over.

---

No, I genuinely was not being serious. But you're right, fighting fire with fire often results in burns u_u

Maybe they should just have an entirely different roulette for the higher level raids. "Normal" ones included. It'd be nice to not do the Crystal Tower or the first tier of Alexander for once.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalbee

Again, I was exaggerating to make a point, nobody talks like that in real life (I hope).

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

Nah, you were just taking perceived condescension and doing the exact same thing you got so worked up over.

Fighting fire with fire doesn't accomplish anything. Especially when the fire wasn't even legitimate in the first place.

---

Using this qoute because Kaoru_Nagisa expressed it well enough.

The problem is, as people are wont to do on the internet, you jumped the gun and got worked up over one word that never carried the meaning you thought it did (initially, anyway), then attempted to wrap it in the guise of "making a point", looking foolish in the process. One would think people would learn by now not to make certain assumptions on the internet; however, I'm willing to cede the point given the number of trolls that lurk out there, and genuine ill-wishers, so your assumption that I intended the same is not entirely without merit.

As for your comment on the roulette, while I'm still dubious of such claims (I don't know you, after all) I still wholeheartly disagree. Gaming the system was clearly never intended (else the devs never would have addressed it's a problem) and it ruins the experience for many, whether players are new, or simply tired of seeing the same bloody things over and over. I genuinely like the astetics of Lab/Tower, but it's been soured somewhat given how many times I've seen them, and how easily we just stream-roll through them these days. It's dull as dirt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kanitezz

Maybe they should just have an entirely different roulette for the higher level raids. "Normal" ones included. It'd be nice to not do the Crystal Tower or the first tier of Alexander for once.

---

Eh... I'm split on this. The ilvl-reducers would just choose the lower level roulettes, which could workout for newer players (depending), but for the other roulette queue times would likely stay the same or end up tanking due to a lack of people. Given we don't know how many players artificially lower their ilvl, it's hard to say for certain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirhd

Eh... I'm split on this. The ilvl-reducers would just choose the lower level roulettes, which could workout for newer players (depending), but for the other roulette queue times would likely stay the same or end up tanking due to a lack of people. Given we don't know how many players artificially lower their ilvl, it's hard to say for certain.

---

Yes. Being hopeful though, maybe they'd make the rewards for the higher option actually worth trying the gamble once a day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirhd

Using this qoute because Kaoru_Nagisa expressed it well enough.

The problem is, as people are wont to do on the internet, you jumped the gun and got worked up over one word that never carried the meaning you thought it did

---

Fair enough. Perhaps I'm, as they say too online because pet names always read as dripping with condescension to me because that's how they're usually used on social media, as you said "given the number of trolls that lurk out there, and genuine ill-wishers." My apologies for jumping to conclusions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirhd

Gaming the system was clearly never intended

---

This game's community seems to always find ways to make systems work more efficiently than the devs might have intended (like FATE trains in Anemos, which the devs reportedly did not foresee). I do agree, though, that it can get boring, I also seem to get either LotA or ST 8 out of 10 times I do Alliance. Hopefully they do something about it because on top of being boring, everything dies so easily they aren't even good practice for rotations while you're leveling a new job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

Of course I do, and everyone who says they never done it is either a liar, or hasnt unlocked SB alliance raids yet :P Nice try making it look like I'm engaging in some kind of forbidden or unethical activity tho xD Go ahead, name and shame me for avoiding Orbonne Abandon Roulette, I can take it ^^

---

If you are naked when you que in, you will be targeted by my macro and the whole Alliance will know what you did. Some of us don't mind the challenge the other (higher) raids pose and are willing to give it a shot. Just because you want the easy option doesn't mean you should force everyone else to take it. As long as you're willing for everyone to know what you're doing, by all means keep doing it. ;)

EDIT: Also I have NEVER used this exploit ever because I actually learned the all current 24 mans and know how they go. Don't put us in the same boat as you, darling. That's a sinking ship. 😗

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalbee

Fair enough. Perhaps I'm, as they say too online because pet names always read as dripping with condescension to me because that's how they're usually used on social media, as you said "given the number of trolls that lurk out there, and genuine ill-wishers." My apologies for jumping to conclusions.

---

Understandable, and I could rant for a while about social media in general, but I'll refrain for everyone's' sanity; there are multiple reasons I don't bother with it beyond the bare minimum, typically. Sure it's been used for great things, but I'm rather jaded given the colossal amount of garbage that goes around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chalbee

This game's community seems to always find ways to make systems work more efficiently than the devs might have intended (like FATE trains in Anemos, which the devs reportedly did not foresee). I do agree, though, that it can get boring, I also seem to get either LotA or ST 8 out of 10 times I do Alliance. Hopefully they do something about it because on top of being boring, everything dies so easily they aren't even good practice for rotations while you're leveling a new job.

---

Efficient, perhaps, but again, at the expense of others. Feel I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but it's a sore spot. Best I can hope for is the devs seriously look into it, because being sick of content not due to it being poorly designed, but because I was forced (not forced to run roulette obviously, but forced to see the same raids 9 times out of 10 after queuing due to factors outside my control) doesn't sit well with me. I don't leave because I just don't like the idea of leaving unless something really egregious happens (and I'm stubborn and prefer to finish what I start). Hell, I didn't leave a Lab run when people decided "hey, we don't need those silly rocks on Behemoth, lets block meteors with our faces!" and ran giants through them, or just parked their rocks on the boss. You can guess what happened... more than once. I don't recall there being a new player bonus that time, either, so uh...

Learning rotations is a thing too, sure. Dummies are an option, but it's nice to practice in older content... when things don't die in 5 seconds.

Just lower the maximum ilv and make it so that dungeons are similar in difficulty as Orborne is right now. But, make sure that the reward has something new that will be reward per two daily bonus gets on Tuesday of every week like a random weapon coffer or like a new universal currency for raid gear. Oh, and make it so that Alliance raid ruelette ignores ilv.

I feel like the solution to make other raids as desirable as those two is fairly simple. The ilvlsync of 130 can be lowered to like 100, 130 is just pure overkill.

Players could enjoy the raid mechanics more, maybe even fully. People who limit their ilvl end up in 24raids that take as much time as other raids then, there wouldn't be a benefit to do it. And we would see different raids again.
I wouldn't mind playing a few minutes longer, if I actually am required to use my brain for the mechanics for once.

Other solutions seem to complex or too hard on players imo.

I like the Labyrinth because I'm still trying to get the Fuma set for my Ninja and the roulette is a way to kill 2 birds with one stone.

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...c6f8ea7d14.jpg

I think it goes beyond ilvl because even the HW raids are still fairly challenging if people try to face roll them - with the exception of Void Ark which was a face roll even when it was released. I just don't think the Tower Climb is tuned well and that it was never made with the consideration that our stats would balloon in to the scope they currently have reached.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enla

I think it goes beyond ilvl because even the HW raids are still fairly challenging if people try to face roll them - with the exception of Void Ark which was a face roll even when it was released. I just don't think the Tower Climb is tuned well and that it was never made with the consideration that our stats would balloon in to the scope they currently have reached.

---

Nah, the 2.0 raids are definitely ilvl. Scylla was a wall when that released. People couldn't do daybreak, and there were a lot of wipes there. Similar with the mechanics of glasya, to a lesser degree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Nah, the 2.0 raids are definitely ilvl. Scylla was a wall when that released. People couldn't do daybreak, and there were a lot of wipes there. Similar with the mechanics of glasya, to a lesser degree.

---

Oh I remember, I still have flashbacks to all the screaming people did back in 2.0 in a vain attempt to get people to do the mechanics lol. It isn't that they weren't tuned for when they released, it's that I don't think they were tuned with the current power creep the game has in mind. The last time I had to do Glasya's platforms was back in the mid-patch release for HW - and Scylla's daybreak hasn't done more than tickled since then either. By comparison the HW's raids have aged a lot more gracefully. They're a lot easier now but it doesn't feel like you're skipping 90% of the fight. I'm just not sure /why/ that is though. If it's a tuning issue or just a back door coding issue.

Quote:

---

If you are naked when you que in, you will be targeted by my macro and the whole Alliance will know what you did.

---

The whole alliance will also know how petty you are, too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enla

Oh I remember, I still have flashbacks to all the screaming people did back in 2.0 in a vain attempt to get people to do the mechanics lol. It isn't that they weren't tuned for when they released, it's that I don't think they were tuned with the current power creep the game has in mind. The last time I had to do Glasya's platforms was back in the mid-patch release for HW - and Scylla's daybreak hasn't done more than tickled since then either. By comparison the HW's raids have aged a lot more gracefully. They're a lot easier now but it doesn't feel like you're skipping 90% of the fight. I'm just not sure /why/ that is though. If it's a tuning issue or just a back door coding issue.

---

It's definitely the types of pay-attention-mechanics, and cleaves/boss-positioning. PPL, like, still wipe to the zombie-puddle and death mechanics in the second boss and a lot of similar mechanics are used in the Ivalice raids as well

I just think it's funny that it's become a vicious cycle. People don't do Orbonne because other people haven't learned the mechanics; but people aren't learning the mechanics because they aren't getting the chance to run it because people cheese the system to avoid Orbonne. If more people took what they got with Alliance Raid Roulette (including Orbonne) and, instead of dropping, taught people mechanics, then those players can teach people, and those people can teach others, and so on and so forth.

That being said, I do think there should be more of a reward for people willing to do that. You should get more XP/tomes for completing the level 70 raids than you get for the level 50/60 raids. You should get less XP for the level 60 raids than you do 70, but more than 50. And level 50 raids should give the least xp/tome rewards. People will still cheese it if the time vs reward is not worth it to them, but you would probably get at least some people more willing to give Orbonne a chance if it meant more xp/tomes.

Lmao I have news for you...i refuse to unlock orbonne...because that lighthouse shit was no bueno, deal breaker for me. I don't want stuff that takes forever. I just want my tomes capped so I can get back to my Netflix.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

That's great that that's been your experience. My last few experiences of Orbonne ended up being huge wastes of time that ended in vote abandons.


And tbh, even if the run goes smooth as silk, it still takes way longer to complete than LotA/ST.

---

Well, I'm sorry that happened to you and it's happened to me as well (though not often and not lately), but I take that as part of my enjoyment in playing the game. Sometimes, you just have to try again while trying to enjoy the ride in the meantime.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alimdia

That's why I asked for an exp buff for raids that usually take longer, over here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...to-be-adjusted

Right now it's a bit more efficient to leave orbonne, do fates / afk for 30 mins and ilvl cheesing Syrcus than to clear Orbonne.

It takes 3x as long for the same rewards as Syrcus.

---

I guess I don't usually think how long something will take unless I have an appointment to keep. I play the game to play the game, not to spend a certain amount of time to do something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

If you are naked when you que in, you will be targeted by my macro and the whole Alliance will know what you did.

---

Congratulations, you just opened yourself up to a harsssment report for it. That, and it only applies when you join the queue. Change gear to only be LOTA/ST, queue, change back to full gear, still be queued for only LOTA/ST (and most people doing it are smart enough to know that's how it works). Chances are, you're hitting more false positives doing that.

And before you accuse me of doing it, I actually prefer it when I get things like Orbonne, gets the brain going, so why would I do ilvl cheese when it goes counter to what I want?

WOW this thread just exploded in just 24 hours lol. This turned out to be a worthwhile topic.

So the crystal tower raids are common because people cheese the system by lowering their ilevel? /facepalm
Well that explains it.

I’d like to point out that characters level 50-59 can only run content so much before hitting 60 and becoming eligible for HW raids.

So I’m glad plenty of other players share my opinion on this issue and it’s also good to see why players cheese the system. I’m of course going to agree that this defeats the purpose of the roulette especially since when you queue for 60/70 alliance raids it takes ages even on a dps class.
I’m pretty confident that this isn’t working as SE intended. It’s like taking a roulette wheel and expanding your desired pie pieces to cover the entire wheel...excluding 77% of the content it’s supposed to fill and dragging 23 other players into your plot. Which may include players who would prefer more interesting raids.

I wonder if this issue will be mentioned in the LL today.

I don’t mind getting these at all because they’re fast.

Orbonne is about an hour if everything is smooth and that’s not guaranteed and then it is very painful :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thoosa

I don’t mind getting these at all because they’re fast.

Orbonne is about an hour if everything is smooth and that’s not guaranteed and then it is very painful :)

---

A smooth run doesn't take an hour, probably around 20m or so.

just remove the roulette entirely, I won the lottery today and got world of darkness and people are so bad that healers are tanking all adds and kiting bosses.