SE Please Sell Gil

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Originally Posted by Edax

If that good or bad?

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No?

I was merely pointing out that OP's complaints regarding botters is simply not true. Bots really just farm. That's all. And with the value of gil seriously equaling 20mil for $2, it just goes to show how little value gil has and how little impact botters make on the game now. In the early days of the game, when quests gave like..a potion and 50gil as your reward, sure, but now? I didn't even have this much gil in FFXI.

Also, most MSQ are instanced so outside botters cannot claim mobs that are part of your quest. Another falsehood from the OP.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

In Rift you can buy entire raid sets for real money, that's all optional as well. Pay to win, means being able to buy something that makes you better than other players at the same level. Adding gil doesn't really do anything but let you buy some crafted (worse than tomestone/raid/dungeon gear in most cases) and houses (in the rare moments they're available). Pay to win to me, would be if it was like Rift where you could spend money and buy an entire set of raid gear for yourself that other players can only get by clearing the raid or forking over some dosh.

I'm not saying I'm for selling gil mind you, quite the opposite. Gil is so useless most of the time that there's no reason to buy it as far as I'm concerned. However I adamantly disagree with this notion that buying gil (regardless of the source) somehow trivializes the game and makes it pay to win. The notion is nonsensical and doesn't hold under any real scrutiny.

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Except many people don't play to do raid, so selling raid gear wouldn't mean anything to them unless they just want the glamour, and even having good gear wouldn't guarantee a clear. A lot of people do play to buy and decorate house, collect glamour, mounts, minions, etc., and many of these items can be bought via gil, which means selling gil would trivialize the game for them. No need to do higher (lower?) floor PoTD if you have the gil to buy a Night Pegasus mount, etc.

I'm actually gonna do my part to make this happen, I figured out that since I have a ridiculous amount of gil between alts, I'll just tank the market by bringing it up and buying only things that are overly expensive putting things out of reach for new players forcing them to RMT. Ez pz.

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Originally Posted by linay

Except many people don't play to do raid, so selling raid gear wouldn't mean anything to them unless they just want the glamour, and even having good gear wouldn't guarantee a clear. A lot of people do play to buy and decorate house, collect glamour, mounts, minions, etc., and many of these items can be bought via gil, which means selling gil would trivialize the game for them. No need to do higher (lower?) floor PoTD if you have the gil to buy a Night Pegasus mount, etc.

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Which would be a valid complaint, which I would like to agree with. SE sells mounts, glamours and other items already for cash. At this point I have yet to see an argument against which SE and the player base has already justified with the current cash shop.



Rare glamours for cash, check and justified by these forums.


Quest clear for cash, check and justified by these forums.


Leveling for cash, check and justified by these forums.


The same arguments that allow these should allow gil to be sold. All it does is move the bar that they have already placed up one tier. It still doesn't clear content for you like people argue to allow for the skip potions. It just allows you to join faster into current content. I don't like it, but the box has been opened and the player base has embraced it.



Only reason at this point I don't see something like it in game already is their inability to implement it. They probably already have plans for it. It would actually make a lot of sense combined data centers and MBs, and then a form of sold gil.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Which would be a valid complaint, which I would like to agree with. SE sells mounts, glamours and other items already for cash. At this point I have yet to see an argument against which SE and the player base has already justified with the current cash shop.



Rare glamours for cash, check and justified by these forums.


Quest clear for cash, check and justified by these forums.


Leveling for cash, check and justified by these forums.


The same arguments that allow these should allow gil to be sold. All it does is move the bar that they have already placed up one tier. It still doesn't clear content for you like people argue to allow for the skip potions. It just allows you to join faster into current content. I don't like it, but the box has been opened and the player base has embraced it.



Only reason at this point I don't see something like it in game already is their inability to implement it. They probably already have plans for it. It would actually make a lot of sense combined data centers and MBs, and then a form of sold gil.

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Except you're basically talking about opening another completely different box. There IS a difference between buying some boosts and cosmetics and buying the main currency of the game.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Except you're basically talking about opening another completely different box. There IS a difference between buying some boosts and cosmetics and buying the main currency of the game.

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Why? It won't clear any savage for you. The game gets a new raid tier and a crafted set that is overmelded to make you cry to help clear it. Someone buys all that with bought gil, so they can play endgame. We already justify the skip potions for that. The only way I can see argument against this is that the party finder has clear sells. Those are sketchy at best and I feel (don't know though) they already involve real cash.



Glamour already exists for cash. Some would argue that they are better and have more work put into them.



With the way the game is currently set up for gear progression and content. Someone having an extra 100 million gil is not p2w. That is literally the justification for the other cash shop boosts. It is not p2w so it is ok. I don't like it, but it is hypocritical to say one is ok and not the other when both meet the same requirements.


Does it mess with the markets? The markets are a hot mess right now with cross world visits,retainers and generally questionable design. Also any craft-able item is farm-able and the game has an infinite amount of resources, unlike other games where servers share nodes. You also allow people to pay up to my level and farm the same mobs that I farm and that is currently acceptable under current cash shop system.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Which would be a valid complaint, which I would like to agree with. SE sells mounts, glamours and other items already for cash. At this point I have yet to see an argument against which SE and the player base has already justified with the current cash shop.



Rare glamours for cash, check and justified by these forums.


Quest clear for cash, check and justified by these forums.


Leveling for cash, check and justified by these forums.


The same arguments that allow these should allow gil to be sold. All it does is move the bar that they have already placed up one tier. It still doesn't clear content for you like people argue to allow for the skip potions. It just allows you to join faster into current content. I don't like it, but the box has been opened and the player base has embraced it.



Only reason at this point I don't see something like it in game already is their inability to implement it. They probably already have plans for it. It would actually make a lot of sense combined data centers and MBs, and then a form of sold gil.

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The difference is you can't play the game to earn most of the things in the mog shop, so they're not in the same category as there is no advantage given. The boost is the major exception, but that fits more into a catch up mechanic.

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Originally Posted by linay

The difference is you can't play the game to earn most of the things in the mog shop, so they're not in the same category as there is no advantage given. The boost is the major exception, but that fits more into a catch up mechanic.

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Thanks. Summed it up well.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Why? It won't clear any savage for you. The game gets a new raid tier and a crafted set that is overmelded to make you cry to help clear it. Someone buys all that with bought gil, so they can play endgame. We already justify the skip potions for that. The only way I can see argument against this is that the party finder has clear sells. Those are sketchy at best and I feel (don't know though) they already involve real cash.



Glamour already exists for cash. Some would argue that they are better and have more work put into them.



With the way the game is currently set up for gear progression and content. Someone having an extra 100 million gil is not p2w. That is literally the justification for the other cash shop boosts. It is not p2w so it is ok. I don't like it, but it is hypocritical to say one is ok and not the other when both meet the same requirements.


Does it mess with the markets? The markets are a hot mess right now with cross world visits,retainers and generally questionable design. Also any craft-able item is farm-able and the game has an infinite amount of resources, unlike other games where servers share nodes. You also allow people to pay up to my level and farm the same mobs that I farm and that is currently acceptable under current cash shop system.

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It will create inflation, which always messes with markets... and in some cases can drive people away from games. Selling gil or the main currency of any game, never actually helps either the player or the game, it just makes a mess or more of a mess than there was to begin with.

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Originally Posted by linay

The difference is you can't play the game to earn most of the things in the mog shop, so they're not in the same category as there is no advantage given. The boost is the major exception, but that fits more into a catch up mechanic.

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Two things. So glamour isn't glamour if it isn't earned in game and is separate from game? That feels like reaching but if that is how you are going to justify that. I will agree with you.



Then the next point which I made just above you was that I thought they would also use gil to catch up in gear progression. So gil for glamour or other would not be ok. But gil used for catching up is ok. As we have determined that cash for catching up is ok. So SE shouldn't sell gil, but more catch up items like those coffers you get that have a whole set of gear.So someone who has taken a couple patch break doesn't feel like grinding can just log on to the mog station and move into a raid starting tier of gear. I am not exactly sure why people want to buy gil. But it would be fine for the cash shop to have gear instead of gil, it could even be cash shop unique sets. Which would make them unobtainable in game and just progression.

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Originally Posted by Wiccan026

It will create inflation, which always messes with markets... and in some cases can drive people away from games. Selling gil or the main currency of any game, never actually helps either the player or the game, it just makes a mess or more of a mess than there was to begin with.

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The market is a mess right now. No control on bots, ban waves after items/gil have entered market. A horrible implemented cross world market system, or lack of.

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Originally Posted by linay

Again, what's the point of asking for SE to sell gil if they already do? It's because the way SE does it is not enough as a means of earning gil.

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Ask OP, I didn't start the thread, the point is that the argument I quoted is false.

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Originally Posted by linay

It's because you still have to have the items to sell and ventures for the retainers and even have to level up or boost each retainer. It is not a simple real money for gil exchange.

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And once you boost them and sell the items...? Nothing you're saying changes the fact that additional retainers give people a massive advantage in getting gil, not just from ventures, but also in increasing the limit of items you can sell at once.

If retainers and level boosts are not pay to win, then selling sub tokens is not pay to win, period. You can't pick when to drop the pay to win label and when to keep it.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Just because it isn't doom and gloom that my mother has had cancer for 7 years now does not mean cancer is healthy or that everything is fine. It's still a problem. If gil was largely useless as you say, there wouldn't be all these bots farming gil so your premise is contradicted by the reality of the situation.

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Ignoring the weird and inappropriate analogy, what are you winning with gil? How does the existence of gil farming bots mean you can "win" the game with gil? When did they add tradeable raid gear that you can buy with gil? When did they add a PvP auto win button that costs gil? Enlighten me.

It's worth noting that the markets are a mess not just because of inflation caused by gil sellers but because gil sellers actually do play the market to get their gil using DoL/H farm bots. It's a safer source of income because they'll pretty much never get banned due to being legit as far as the STF is concerned.

It's an awkward thought that there are likely people buying gil, then just giving the gil back to the other sellers by buying their crafts.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

The market is a mess right now. No control on bots, ban waves after items/gil have entered market. A horrible implemented cross world market system, or lack of.

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I never said the market wasn't a mess. I actually stated that this could make it even messier... which yes it would.

Inflation is never a good answer.

No
https://i.imgur.com/JCpXqzC.gif

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Ignoring the weird and inappropriate analogy, what are you winning with gil? How does the existence of gil farming bots mean you can "win" the game with gil?

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Buying power.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

it's all fine because gil is largely useless.

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Clearly there's a market for this black market gil or the spam bots wouldn't be flooding the starting city states with their illicit advertisements. If gil is largely useless as you say, these botters wouldn't be wasting their time and money selling it.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Then the next point which I made just above you was that I thought they would also use gil to catch up in gear progression. So gil for glamour or other would not be ok. But gil used for catching up is ok. As we have determined that cash for catching up is ok. So SE shouldn't sell gil, but more catch up items like those coffers you get that have a whole set of gear.So someone who has taken a couple patch break doesn't feel like grinding can just log on to the mog station and move into a raid starting tier of gear. I am not exactly sure why people want to buy gil. But it would be fine for the cash shop to have gear instead of gil, it could even be cash shop unique sets. Which would make them unobtainable in game and just progression.

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What catch up do they need to sell beyond the boost? They still want you to play the expansion, so there are catch up mechanics in the game itself.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

And once you boost them and sell the items...? Nothing you're saying changes the fact that additional retainers give people a massive advantage in getting gil, not just from ventures, but also in increasing the limit of items you can sell at once.

If retainers and level boosts are not pay to win, then selling sub tokens is not pay to win, period. You can't pick when to drop the pay to win label and when to keep it.



Ignoring the weird and inappropriate analogy, what are you winning with gil? How does the existence of gil farming bots mean you can "win" the game with gil? When did they add tradeable raid gear that you can buy with gil? When did they add a PvP auto win button that costs gil? Enlighten me.

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Retainers and level boosts still have you work to make use of them. Level boosts don't get you to max level and don't teach you how to play the job. Retainers don't help you with acquiring the items to sell and you still have to work on each retainer. Gil/token directly get you whatever gil gets you that you want that gives you advantage over other potential buyer that may not have the gil.

Having se sell gil wont fix the issue.It would devalue the gil so much that price would jump a lot higher for items.
This would send people to find cheaper alternatives to buy gil.The rmt sellers will always undercut SE.
The only thing that would come from this would be SE making more money.It would also turn the game into pay2win which would divide the player community.
A lot of the people advocating for se to sell gil isnt to try and combat the rmt sellers.Its so they can personally buy gil to make game easier for them without getting banned through the rmt way.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Buying power.



Clearly there's a market for this black market gil or the spam bots wouldn't be flooding the starting city states with their illicit advertisements. If gil is largely useless as you say, these botters wouldn't be wasting their time and money selling it.

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It is largely useless in the pay-to-win sense. You can't really "buy power" in this game, it's more like "use Gil to save time". Crafted gear is on-par with current-tier 8-man normal raid stuff. If you have the income (and crafted stuff is so cheap now) it can speed up your gearing, but aside from that it really gives no advantage. I guess you could make the argument that it can be used to purchase Savage wins...but...why? What are they actually getting out of buying Savage-tier armor? I guess they can save 90 seconds in expert roulette if they buy a full set. If they feel any motivation to learn easier fights after cheating their way past the pinncale, I guess that can get marginally easier. And....to show off...? I guess they can also use it to penta-meld gear for that extra 3% damage boost.

Where Gil isn't worthless is the *true* endgame (aka glamour, housing and maybe powerleveling DOH). And I guess it's not worthless as a mode of gearing multiple jobs, but I did concede it's use as a time-saver.

Tldr; Gil is near-worthless as a means of buying power, but useful to save time and look pretty.

No and just no, deal with the goldsellers instead.

Splashing here giving my two cents like many times.

What is supposed to be the "Pay to win" in Boosts and MSQ skip? The "I bought something that I could've done in few days and even then i still gotta level up to reach the max level?" How that is even remotely a win? Supposedly you earn more than 20 eur in days of work, but you play the game for all it has to offer no? Cutting a part of levelling only cuts you "Playtime" time, you'd lie if you never have moments where you sit in any city and be like "IDK WHAT TO DO". Or even better what do you win by skipping the MSQ? A crown for being an idiot? Because story so far is objectively good given the ShB/HSW acclamation and success, a bit less SB, but I still consider it good, not on par of HSW/SB but good, aside Tsuyu Part that hit on the feels.

Even if this game would sell Gils (Which I disapprove, mainly because if it happens GIL sellers will go mad to undercut each other and that would create an unbalance on economy worse than the one we are having now and since Gils are nowhere as important to play the game its unnecessary. Most of stuff is cheap enough that even by sending your retainer and doing nothing else you can afford it, mansions and medium house are the only bit where you need to actually work (DoL/DoH) or save for a long time) scaling the inflation problem even worse BUT it wouldn't be a p2w. Since Raid gear SHOULD be "skill-locked", but in reality noobs get carried, runs get bought and even then, what are they winning? A second crown for being bad and needed to get carried? On what a PvE game? Yes some people do PvP and that wouldn't help them in the less since classes are all the same from lv30 (So no need to get "higher" and even even then it won't raise you to the newest expansion level which would still be lower than the max level if that mattered, people that would care about PvP would level it to 80 and you'd still be 70 in "disadvantage").

On a side note, its a mainly PvE game, there's nothing to win aside having fun. If you think that's P2W you guys have never play'd stuff like 4Story or other MMO's of that "time", Metin etc.. Where you could literally get stuff to upgrade and be "better" than anyone else, or private server where you'd paid 10 eur for a gm to insert a certain bonus for you into the item you wanted, or giving to you directly the item with modded stats. That's what you call P2W. As for the present there's no way to get ahead of other players in FFXIV by using the itemshop therefor whatever SE decides to do, there's no way this game becomes P2W and again, gils gives no direct advantage to you. (But please don't sell Gil in the mogstation i'm already tired of this inflation).

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Originally Posted by Edax

Buying power.

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Oh? Which shop sells max ilvl gear for gil?

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Originally Posted by Edax

Clearly there's a market for this black market gil or the spam bots wouldn't be flooding the starting city states with their illicit advertisements. If gil is largely useless as you say, these botters wouldn't be wasting their time and money selling it.

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There being a market for it =/= gil is pay to win. Nice ignoring the rest of my comment.

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Originally Posted by linay

Retainers and level boosts still have you work to make use of them. Level boosts don't get you to max level and don't teach you how to play the job. Retainers don't help you with acquiring the items to sell and you still have to work on each retainer. Gil/token directly get you whatever gil gets you that you want that gives you advantage over other potential buyer that may not have the gil.

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"You have to work to use them" is not an argument, it's still a massive advantage people who don't pay for them don't get.

You don't have to know how to play a job to get the 500k gil from level boosts, i don't even know what are you talking about.

Retainers DO help you acquire items, it's called ventures. And for selling regular items, someone with 200 sale slots can make more money than someone with 40 sale slots.

Retainers give people advantage that others who don't pay for extra retainers don't get. If sub tokens were pay to win, then so is this extra gil income people get by paying extra for retainers.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

...and the money still goes to Blizzard, since it's the cost of a subscription fee.

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Plus a $5.00 handling fee. (Sub is $15, token is $20) Advantage with this system is that it doesn't cause inflation by creating new gold in-game. It's merely being transferred between players who have time to make it. and those who can afford it but don't have the time to earn it on their own. The ones who "sell" their gold via the tokens can also keep playing, even if they can't afford the subscription cost..

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Ignoring the weird and inappropriate analogy, what are you winning with gil? How does the existence of gil farming bots mean you can "win" the game with gil? When did they add tradeable raid gear that you can buy with gil? When did they add a PvP auto win button that costs gil? Enlighten me.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Oh? Which shop sells max ilvl gear for gil?

There being a market for it =/= gil is pay to win. Nice ignoring the rest of my comment.

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You're leading the question. You want to taking about winning the game, then we'd need to agree what a winner of FFXIV is.
Otherwise paying real money for advantages over other players is known as P2W. You need not consider "win" so literally.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

"You have to work to use them" is not an argument, it's still a massive advantage people who don't pay for them don't get.

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It is an argument as it puts it into pay to play territory, not pay to win. You don't compete in leveling and having more retainer doesn't prevent others from putting up their own retainer. You do, however, compete in what you buy in the market board as anything you buy with your gil is now unavailable for anyone else unless you sell it back.

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You don't have to know how to play a job to get the 500k gil from level boosts, i don't even know what are you talking about.

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That's an argument against leveling boost = pay to win. The 500k gil is irrelevant, otherwise there is no point for this thread.

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Retainers DO help you acquire items, it's called ventures. And for selling regular items, someone with 200 sale slots can make more money than someone with 40 sale slots.

Retainers give people advantage that others who don't pay for extra retainers don't get. If sub tokens were pay to win, then so is this extra gil income people get by paying extra for retainers.

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Being able to sell more is irrelevant because you're still supplying those items and ventures. Having more retainers doesn't automatically get you those.