Have we given up on SCH?

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Scholar and healers in general need to have their secondary identity expanded on.

WHM needs to weave damage and healing better and have more abilities that combine both aspects. WHM is the damager of the three. No utility but enormous personal dps.

SCH should be the debuffing/enfeebling healer. Tactically use aetherflow to inflict potent debuffs to reduce damage done or increase damage taken. Then use the subsequent Fairy gauge generated to use the oCDs.

AST needs new ways to manipulate its buffs. Extend, spread or increase their potency.

Essentially, since healing/dps identities seem to be homogenized the devs should expand on the secondary support aspects of each job.

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With this I agree 100%

More than asking for stuff to make dungeons more fun, healers do need an identity, not only sch but all of them

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

SCH should be the debuffing/enfeebling healer. Tactically use aetherflow to inflict potent debuffs to reduce damage done or increase damage taken. Then use the subsequent Fairy gauge generated to use the oCDs.

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Imagine a very responsive Fairy that would cast Lustrate, Indomitability or Sacred Soil using Fairy Gauge rather than AF. You could have her on two modes, either on your shoulder wich would essentially mean she'd cast things point blank around your character, or an "Away/placement".

Meanwhile the SCH would use AF to inflict deprotect, meltdown, virus to compensate for its comparatively weaker offensive damaging nukes.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Imagine a very responsive Fairy that would cast Lustrate, Indomitability or Sacred Soil using Fairy Gauge rather than AF. You could have her on two modes, either on your shoulder wich would essentially mean she'd cast things point blank around your character, or an "Away/placement".

Meanwhile the SCH would use AF to inflict deprotect, meltdown, virus to compensate for its comparatively weaker offensive damaging nukes.

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That would actually be neat I'd like to see it myself, but I honestly doubt it'll happen, given how much effort it would take on SE's end and given their track record of "effort" on healers, well, that sort of speaks for itself I believe.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Imagine a very responsive Fairy that would cast Lustrate, Indomitability or Sacred Soil using Fairy Gauge rather than AF. You could have her on two modes, either on your shoulder wich would essentially mean she'd cast things point blank around your character, or an "Away/placement".

Meanwhile the SCH would use AF to inflict deprotect, meltdown, virus to compensate for its comparatively weaker offensive damaging nukes.

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thats exactly how i picture the scholar using his fairies.
fairy will be able to follow someone and scholar can be further in a safe spot ordering her while he does something else like dps or heal someone else.
sad this isn't the case :(

The most annoying things (QoL point of view) are :
- Fairy abilities took to long to be apply on the team. It should be instant.
- Summon Seraph should apply the 1st Consolation and the last if not used before while disappearing.
- Seraph appearing and disappearing shouldn't cancel any other abilities of Eos/Seraph.
- When Eos reappear after Dissipate or Seraph, her position should be the same if it was fixed, and not apply "follow you" by default.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Okay. I played MCH in expert, while not 10/10 most amazing experience in my life, it was loads better than doing it on SCH, because I got to actually press buttons. Not asking for the class to be absolutely amazing and perfect in every piece of content, I just want to do more than spam art of war/broil until I'm completely numb.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

Taking up the same challenge and taking another job in expert. I've done SMN and DNC in expert. Whilst SMN is unintuitive, clunky and has problems of its own, I enjoy the experience, I have way loads more to do versus SCH due to how long its rotation is. And Death flare, Bahamut and Phoenix all feel badass.

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Excellent. Now do it 30 times so that the same level of repetitiveness starts to take its toll with this other job too.

It's interesting that you had fun with it. Is it because you've not played this job much and you're engaged in trying to learn it? Because any time I bring a DPS job to a roulette I'm bored out of my mind. It's the exact same thing every run. Almost down to the GCD.

Healer roles, at the very least, have some variability in the amount of damage you must heal, depending on your party.

Yes. As im saying, it has always beimg boring, its too repetitive. I think capping every week is the most tedious thing of this game and thats why I stop doing it after I clear the last savage content.

"Summon Seraph should apply the 1st Consolation and the last if not used before while disappearing."

No this is wrong. Normal healing is stronger thab aoe healing of seraph, is party is full is a waste to use that healing instead of doing it on the tank.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Excellent. Now do it 30 times so that the same level of repetitiveness starts to take its toll with this other job too.

It's interesting that you had fun with it. Is it because you've not played this job much and you're engaged in trying to learn it? Because any time I bring a DPS job to a roulette I'm bored out of my mind. It's the exact same thing every run. Almost down to the GCD.

Healer roles, at the very least, have some variability in the amount of damage you must heal, depending on your party.

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I've done countless level 50 alliance raid roulettes as MCH, well after I had learned its rotation, and after I had gotten it to Max level. While it wasn't the most fun I've ever had, it was more fun than SCH at level 80. Just something as simple as having timers on things like drill, bio blaster, and hotshot/air anchor, a proc when your gauge hits a certain percentage, and trying to get stuff off in wildfire, while all simple things, are enough to keep me engaged, at least for now. You're right, maybe halfway through the expac, and have done every roulette 200+ times, even that will get tiring, but I at least have fun for awhile even doing the simpler things. On SCH I am bored to tears as soon as my first run through. Every dungeon in shadowbringers, when they were all new and sparkly, was boring me because I had nothing to do, the only place I enjoy it at all anymore is Savage, and even that is only because of the way the fights are designed and not scholar itself. I bet if I went in on a class like MCH or SMN I'd be having way more fun than I am on SCH, because at least those classes have somewhere to go after the fight is learned. Shame I signed up into my static as a healer while healers were still fun, so I'm stuck with this for now.

Should also be noted I did countless roulettes as SCH back in SB as well, after I had hit level cap with it and played it countless times. Sure it wasn't as fun towards the end as I was having at the beginning, but I still found even level 60 dungeons at the very least somewhat engaging, because there was always something to do other than spam 1 button.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Excellent. Now do it 30 times so that the same level of repetitiveness starts to take its toll with this other job too.

It's interesting that you had fun with it. Is it because you've not played this job much and you're engaged in trying to learn it? Because any time I bring a DPS job to a roulette I'm bored out of my mind. It's the exact same thing every run. Almost down to the GCD.

Healer roles, at the very least, have some variability in the amount of damage you must heal, depending on your party.

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I kinda cheated on the challenge. I've played SMN for as long as I've played SCH (since 2.0) and have been a DNC main since I gave up on SCH for 5.0, and I have given SCH a chance in 5.0

So my verdict is based on having ran them all multiple times through roulette, SMN more so. Sure once you've done a bajillion roulettes they get samey yes and I pace myself or vary what I do day-to-day. Historically it was fine playing a healer, but now it doesn't feel like I'm doing much, at least with other roles I do.

Heck, as I level all roles, I've always varied the job I queue as too. Regardless of this, all jobs still feel engaging, except healers. This is due to the changes making them less so.

But I guess one way you can visualise it, imagine if every time you did a high level dungeon it felt like you were doing Halatali or another lowend dungeon where you have very limited use of your kit. We don't need to use much of ours at all and what we had to fill the gap is at a Satasha level of variety.

still praying for scholar changes here- i still play it, because it was my favorite class, but i'm still pretty put out that i have to look to other classes for enjoyment since they gutted scholar.

yeh i get it, less qq, moar pewpew, but i don't see why i have to accept a butchered class cause lazy/out of touch devs.

/ObligatoryScholarQQSoTheyKnowWeMad

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

The most annoying things (QoL point of view) are :
- Fairy abilities took to long to be apply on the team. It should be instant.
- Summon Seraph should apply the 1st Consolation and the last if not used before while disappearing.
- Seraph appearing and disappearing shouldn't cancel any other abilities of Eos/Seraph.
- When Eos reappear after Dissipate or Seraph, her position should be the same if it was fixed, and not apply "follow you" by default.

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I came here to say this, using Consolation when the timer still shows 3 seconds left and nothing happens feels extremely disappointing and I feel like the timer should reflect the time that the player has to use spells within the window, not the amount of time that the 3d model changes appearance.

I don't think it should auto-apply consolation, but..

Since the fairy abilities are ogcd now instead of being on their own pet gcd, they should be instant. 100% agree. If they're on my own gcd timer they should act like my own abilities. Otherwise just put it back on the pet bar so we can use whispering dawn while casting broil for example.

I'd say they are holding the fort. I still see them in DF more than the other 2 healers...

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

I'd say they are holding the fort. I still see them in DF more than the other 2 healers...

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Really? I've run into more WHM than anything. I also have to wonder how many of those SCH are actually wanting to play SCH and the ones that are just leveling SMN with the faster queues.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

The most annoying things (QoL point of view) are :
- Fairy abilities took to long to be apply on the team. It should be instant.
- Summon Seraph should apply the 1st Consolation and the last if not used before while disappearing.
- Seraph appearing and disappearing shouldn't cancel any other abilities of Eos/Seraph.
- When Eos reappear after Dissipate or Seraph, her position should be the same if it was fixed, and not apply "follow you" by default.

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While I also want those things, especially since we lost independent faerie cast sequences, I'd really like to have that back. And Seraph consuming the fae gauge [and, like aetherpact, not having a cooldown] might be a better solution for Consolation.

I was under the impression Eos keeps her /place-ment after Seraph, just not after Dissipation.

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Originally Posted by Sabrenn

If they're on my own gcd timer they should act like my own abilities. Otherwise just put it back on the pet bar so we can use whispering dawn while casting broil for example.

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Agreed. Fairy abilities shouldn't have to go through two levels of GCD (player and fairy.) If you want to tie them to the fairy GCD, fine, but in that case take them off the player GCD. If you want to tie them to the player GCD, that's also fine, but in that case the effects should be instant.

Considering the amount of time healers fill with Broil and Glare (And malefic to a lesser degree.), it's not unreasonable to ask for more engaging non healing abilities.

Oh and please spare us the "if you want to dps play dps" crap. We are asking for more interesting healing downtime. It doesn't translate automatically to more dps buttons.

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Originally Posted by PondHollow

And Seraph consuming the fae gauge [and, like aetherpact, not having a cooldown] might be a better solution for Consolation.

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It sounds like a nice solution to me. It would give an alternative for how to spend fairy gauge, and it would move us toward a logical system where the player's big heals use aetherflow and the fairy's big heals use the fairy gauge.

My only problem is that it would mean you couldn't summon seraph until you'd built up the gauge. Right now, seraph is really useful when the tank decides to pull wall-to-wall at the start of Akadaemia Anyder, since aetherpact is unavailable.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Considering the amount of time healers fill with Broil and Glare (And malefic to a lesser degree.), it's not unreasonable to ask for more engaging non healing abilities.

Oh and please spare us the "if you want to dps play dps" crap. We are asking for more interesting healing downtime. It doesn't translate automatically to more dps buttons.

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I've tried healing, tanking and dps in Shadowbringers, they all seem so polished down, but with little to set them apart in playstyles. World and dungeon fights unfortunately get predictable very fast and there is little in the skillset to allow for just endless potiental over a single button to do damage we have now. First I thought it was balanced for Savage so that SE would want me to raid. But I have no interest in raiding, and from reports here it isn't rewarding even there. ARR and HW didn't have this problem so I'm still curious to where SE is coming from with this.

Been giving WoW Classic a go. Mana is a constant issue, overpulling and patrols pose a danger both in and out of dungeons. It's slow, inconvenient, unfair, no dailies, satisfying, memorable and fun. Classes are very simple but makes up for it with an unforgiving world. HW Scholar used to feel directly opposite, with a forgiving world but limitless possibilities for improvement on the job. World is still very much forgiving but possibilities are limited.

Im actually opposed to putting seraph on the gauge. When optimized you will use your gauge plenty, I don’t want to chew into it more. Not to mention that seraph already comes with its set of «*locks*», don’t need to have it behind another one with gauge requirements. That’s a lot for an ogcd succor.

Also I agree that classic wow was slow, unforgiving, simple, but that all of that made it fun. SE really needs to understand that difficult things give players more options and make things more fun and rewarding. Whether it be a difficult world or a difficult class. Options are fun even if you don’t use all of them regularly. The AST card change is a perfect example of this.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Also I agree that classic wow was slow, unforgiving, simple, but that all of that made it fun. SE really needs to understand that difficult things give players more options and make things more fun and rewarding. Whether it be a difficult world or a difficult class. Options are fun even if you don’t use all of them regularly. The AST card change is a perfect example of this.

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Between those two options, I definitely prefer the complex classes over the difficult world. You can make a class such that it's easy enough to use at a basic level, but requires more and more micromanagement as you optimize it. Without completely reworking the game, I think it would be impossible to achieve that with the world---world difficulty is fixed, so some people would always find it too easy and others impossibly difficult.

Besides, what I learned from (retail) WoW is that "harder world content" apparently means mobs have huge health pools but still hit like wet noodles so it takes five minutes to kill one. >.<

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Originally Posted by Wawachume

Besides, what I learned from (retail) WoW is that "harder world content" apparently means mobs have huge health pools but still hit like wet noodles so it takes five minutes to kill one. >.<

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My memories of vanilla wow was that they hit pretty damn hard. To the point where aggro of more than 2 mobs ment running away or facing death. And that only got worse with higher levels or elites of course

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Originally Posted by EaMett

My memories of vanilla wow was that they hit pretty damn hard. To the point where aggro of more than 2 mobs ment running away or facing death. And that only got worse with higher levels or elites of course

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Yes, that's why I said "retail". I only played from late Cataclysm through Legion myself. The huge-health-pools method is a more recent thing.

I been a SCH since 2.0 it's been my favorite healer, but SE takes away spells, then give them back when we say we want that spell back, 2.0 to 3.0, 3.0 to 4.0,4.0 to 5.0 you would think SE would have sense enough to keep the spells we ask for, in the game. But no, they double down each expansion, we have been the Dot type damage dealer with shields as a heal, with a pets that can sub as an weaker WHM or a buffer . I loved SCH and i leveled it to 80 but i dount touch it, hell i dont touch any healer or tank job for exception of GNB.

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Originally Posted by Wawachume

Yes, that's why I said "retail". I only played from late Cataclysm through Legion myself. The huge-health-pools method is a more recent thing.

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The giant health pools are mostly about letting people share quest bosses and rares. It's the only way to let them live long enough for multiple people to get kill credit. Normal mobs don't generally have that much HP.

It's like that in XIV too. A B rank hunk mark isn't hard to kill, it just takes forever, giving other people time to get there and help you kill it.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

People got quieter because in the last letter the devs pretty much dismissed sch having any issues. It’s crazy how a team that has done such a good job comlunicating with players on all manner of topics can drop the ball so bad with healers. I suspect that they’re getting frustrated not knowing how to balance healers and please players and it’s showing as just total apathy for the role. They really need to get some fresh blood on the team.

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It's been obvious even since beta though. every design choice they've made since 2.0 has slowly backed them further and further into this dps corner they're in and now they have no room to do anything to set classes apart. thats why all the tanks and dps have been so heavily homogenized and everything is the same. they really can't do very much with anything unless they make some radical changes and push themselves out of the corner they're trapped in. this obsession with balance needs to be f*d off and bring back some diversity in jobs mechanics bosses and encounters in general.

There's a reason why people say every trial, raid, or boss fight in the game is exactly the same thing.
and the same reason every job is exactly the samee...

also why isnt my fairy named or in the party list so people can at least see where it is in the myriad of flashy effects. whispering dawn booom noone gets it cos theyre waaaayyyyy over there

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Originally Posted by Dzian

It's been obvious even since beta though. every design choice they've made since 2.0 has slowly backed them further and further into this dps corner they're in and now they have no room to do anything to set classes apart. thats why all the tanks and dps have been so heavily homogenized and everything is the same. they really can't do very much with anything unless they make some radical changes and push themselves out of the corner they're trapped in. this obsession with balance needs to be f*d off and bring back some diversity in jobs mechanics bosses and encounters in general.

also why isnt my fairy named or in the party list so people can at least see where it is in the myriad of flashy effects. whispering dawn booom noone gets it cos theyre waaaayyyyy over there

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I'm starting to think SE should perhaps look at a new "mode" to the game.

As you put it they've worked themselves in a corner and they got two problems to solve that are arguably at odds with each other. It also sounds like WoW found themselves in the same position.

On the one hand you've got balance.
On the other you've got a unique and fun gameplay experience.

Those who are most concerned with balance tend to be higher-end raiders who are playing with a competitive edge to try and get the best results and hit the top percentile of players. And those who aspire to be such. And people who may be more focused on content and clearing it, rather than the window by which they interact with it. So homogenisation in favour of balance may work for them as balance is more important here.
Then there's those who love RPG's, having job fantasy and variety of jobs to play to offer different interactions and experiences and varying play styles. For us the more variety there is and the more interesting the job is to play is more suitable here and balance is less important as long as we're not gimp to the point we're useless or that people with the wrong attitude kick us from runs.
I think a leaf could be taken out of PvP's book. Have a "Raider" 'mode' so to speak. Maybe it'll be the jobs more or less as they currently are. I think they could do two options here, make it only active for Savage and possibily extremes. Then all the balance focus could be isolated to certain content where you're still having fun. Outside of this, they could be a little more lax in terms of balance in favour of having the jobs work better for people to play.

When PvP did it, they only had to worry about PvP balance away from PvE balanced and I think created a better, more streamlined and fun experience for PvP without it impacting anything else. But in this case, I don't think a Raid PvE mode would need to remove anything from the current system, as it appears to be already be designed with PvE balance in mind and nobody would lose anything.

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Originally Posted by kobe-sabi

I been a SCH since 2.0 it's been my favorite healer, but SE takes away spells, then give them back when we say we want that spell back, 2.0 to 3.0, 3.0 to 4.0,4.0 to 5.0 you would think SE would have sense enough to keep the spells we ask for, in the game. But no, they double down each expansion, we have been the Dot type damage dealer with shields as a heal, with a pets that can sub as an weaker WHM or a buffer . I loved SCH and i leveled it to 80 but i dount touch it, hell i dont touch any healer or tank job for exception of GNB.

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Slightly confused what you mean/meant by 2.0 to 3.0. Nothing changed when HW dropped, ability-wise anyway. We just got new skills. I think there were a few tweaks here and there but basically nothing was removed. They need to look at what each expansion brought and what worked and what "failed" role skills, failed initially, now the concept is as it should of been, PvP changes were great, the upgrade system for skills, is decent, but could be a bit better, how I dunno, but it does feel like it's missing something. And the gauges, some that were added in felt lackluster if not downright useless, looking at you Lily system and heat gauge. They need to adjust it so that each job feel "complete" at 50 and then feels like its stronger from there, ironically MCH feels like that now. But most jobs dont feel complete until 60.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

The giant health pools are mostly about letting people share quest bosses and rares. It's the only way to let them live long enough for multiple people to get kill credit. Normal mobs don't generally have that much HP.

It's like that in XIV too. A B rank hunk mark isn't hard to kill, it just takes forever, giving other people time to get there and help you kill it.

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No, I mean---wasn't there at least one time in late WoD or Legion where they said they wanted to make the world "more challenging" and mostly just increased mob health pools?

(The rares and stuff, obviously, should have big health pools. That I get.)

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

I'm starting to think SE should perhaps look at a new "mode" to the game.

As you put it they've worked themselves in a corner and they got two problems to solve that are arguably at odds with each other. It also sounds like WoW found themselves in the same position.

On the one hand you've got balance.
On the other you've got a unique and fun gameplay experience.

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I think the issue is how they try and attain balance. Instead of attain balance through diversity and uniquness they insist on making every job be strong at everything and that's why they corner themselves. If you give jobs some actual distinct differences you can attain alevel of baalnce through variety and weaknesses.

To borrow from a recent thread, When you look at tanks back in Alex you had Paladin which was your solid physical damage tank but pretty lame at tanking magic damage. You had dark which was a solid magic tank but weak physical tank. And Warrior which was kinda of in between both. All distinctly different strengths and weakness and yet reasonbly balanced in terms of tanking capabilities. What then tipped the scales and got paladin screwed wasn't the way the jobs were designed but rather the way an entire tier of content was almost exclusively magic damage orientated. So instead of fix the content design they just went and made every job strong at everything and pushed themselves even further into the corner they're in.

Tanks happen to highlight this so well because they're at the front line of every encounter and it was obvious the direction the game was going in right back in early ARR when tanks started dropping fending gear for striking gear because staying alive was a joke and later swapping shield oath for sword oath. Later still completely laughing at the idea of the new tenacity stat. They can change jobs a thousand times but they wont get anywhere unless they sort the encounter designs out.

Same is true for healers. healing will forever be a joke as long as encounters are scripted and predictable and players know to the exact second when they will need to press Lustrate or ED or whatever.

and has even been true for dps where ogcd stuns, silences and even mobility tools like triple cast got spammed on cool down just for a minor dps increase. because they were rarely ever needed for there intended purposes.

making every job the same and every job strong at everything has all but cemented them into a corner which is again why so many people say every fight in the game is exactly the same thing..

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Slightly confused what you mean/meant by 2.0 to 3.0. Nothing changed when HW dropped, ability-wise anyway. We just got new skills. I think there were a few tweaks here and there but basically nothing was removed.

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SE removed some abilities from Selene, but they replaced them with more updated ones and rename them. i forgot i was angry when they did that, but i changed my tune when i saw they made 2.0 Selene better. Sry all i see is blood, this expansion has made me drop healing and War jobs i have enjoyed since i pick this game up in 2013.

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Originally Posted by kobe-sabi

SE removed some abilities from Selene, but they replaced them with more updated ones and rename them. i forgot i was angry when they did that, but i changed my tune when i saw they made 2.0 Selene better. Sry all i see is blood, this expansion has made me drop healing and War jobs i have enjoyed since i pick this game up in 2013.

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I see what you mean, though that falls more under a tweak in my eyes, since you didnt "lose" the skill just got a better version, sorta like Ninja and shade shift. But regardless I can agree with you on how ShB has been. Story wise, it's great, and some jobs were fixed for the better, but I feel some of the jobs are still not as they could be. WHM finally fits its niche of pure healer, but it's still has a few issues, going 20+ levels until you get a secondary lily skill is just wrong. Now that SCH has Energy Drain again Sacred Soil is back to being meh, the heals are good, but cant be spammed, and Seraph doesn't feel as impactful as Bahamut. And AST, I wouldn't know where to start, the heals appear good in the tool tips, but they just feel so weak. Bard is a shell of its former self, and ninja was a disaster on release. I still like the game, but I hope they can fix some of these issues.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

snip..

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I agree this is how it should be done or what is ideal. Honestly, this is what I also liked back in 2.0 for healers, I felt SCH and WHM had a similar kind of relationship, it was great.

And I think you hit the nail on the head talking about how giving strengths and weaknesses to each job is a better way to balance and keeps it more entertaining.

One of the things I remark about loving 2.0 SCH is that it hard a hard time with pure heals, so I had to be more creative to compensate, whilst WHM got to be healiest, the moment SE corrected this, SCH became OP because of its other advantages and WHM being the healiest was made redundant. I think this is kinda where healer homogenisation started, but I'm HW wasn't as noticeable. It is an evolution of 2.0 SCH I am pushing for.

But I am also figuring this would be contrary to SE's current direction. Maybe they find that too hard to maintain with everything else their team is doing. I have been willing to compromise at "make it fun". If savage and similar level of endgame is where the fine tuning of balanced matters, I figure keep the fine tuning there.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

I agree this is how it should be done or what is ideal. Honestly, this is what I also liked back in 2.0 for healers, I felt SCH and WHM had a similar kind of relationship, it was great.

And I think you hit the nail on the head talking about how giving strengths and weaknesses to each job is a better way to balance and keeps it more entertaining.

One of the things I remark about loving 2.0 SCH is that it hard a hard time with pure heals, so I had to be more creative to compensate, whilst WHM got to be healiest, the moment SE corrected this, SCH became OP because of its other advantages and WHM being the healiest was made redundant. I think this is kinda where healer homogenisation started, but I'm HW wasn't as noticeable. It is an evolution of 2.0 SCH I am pushing for.

But I am also figuring this would be contrary to SE's current direction. Maybe they find that too hard to maintain with everything else their team is doing. I have been willing to compromise at "make it fun". If savage and similar level of endgame is where the fine tuning of balanced matters, I figure keep the fine tuning there.

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And that leads to the problem SCH now shares with WHM, after their guttings they both feel like shells of themselves in lower level content. Low levels shouldn't need to suffer and look at how many "WHM feels incomplete" threads there were in SB for people leveling WHM. AST ironically feels the most complete at low levels despite its flaws.

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Originally Posted by Rosa_Frandlia

And that leads to the problem SCH now shares with WHM, after their guttings they both feel like shells of themselves in lower level content. Low levels shouldn't need to suffer and look at how many "WHM feels incomplete" threads there were in SB for people leveling WHM. AST ironically feels the most complete at low levels despite its flaws.

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Whilst I didn’t really browse the forums, my Cohealer is a WHM, so I am familiar with how things were with them. The answer surely would have been to fix WHM and not break AST (albeit I think there were still problems with in this game regardless).

But the fact AST feels most complete and despite it being behind SCH and WHM is why I’m seriously considering it as my healer job. It still has plenty of its own problems, but I am less bored playing it. I just got it to 80. This is after a long time of having SCH and WHM levelled and not really touching AST, because it always felt weird to play coming from a SCH main.

SCH sucks for soloing. You have 2 less attack spells that others have since the changes. Don't have spell that can attack more than one monster at a time like the other 2 healers have. Have no buffs to make up for it like ast has. When I leveled mine to 80 found it completely boring and not fun to play.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

SCH sucks for soloing. You have 2 less attack spells that others have since the changes. Don't have spell that can attack more than one monster at a time like the other 2 healers have. Have no buffs to make up for it like ast has. When I leveled mine to 80 found it completely boring and not fun to play.

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So, while I don't disagree completely, SCH does have an AoE ability in Art of War. It's not as good as miasama II, imo, but it is the best AoE on healers in terms of damage atm.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

So, while I don't disagree completely, SCH does have an AoE ability in Art of War. It's not as good as miasama II, imo, but it is the best AoE on healers in terms of damage atm.

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dps might be nice, but i still find my WHM's Holy a more fun spam, and the stun is nifty too. I know it sounds strange since its literally tapping one button for either class but the difference is still impressive when actually playing it.

I miss old scholar so much >< I legit haven't been playing ff as much because of the changes- other classes are fun don't get me wrong, I tried to find workarounds, but, still sucks I have to to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Kinks

dps might be nice, but i still find my WHM's Holy a more fun spam, and the stun is nifty too. I know it sounds strange since its literally tapping one button for either class but the difference is still impressive when actually playing it.

I miss old scholar so much >< I legit haven't been playing ff as much because of the changes- other classes are fun don't get me wrong, I tried to find workarounds, but, still sucks I have to to begin with.

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Oh, I hate the SCH changes too, but was just saying SCH having no AoE was wrong, because it does have it, it's just much more boring now.

Sch doesn't have a attack that's hits more than one monster at a time. Sch doesn't have miasma II. Only aoe it has at level 80 is Biolysis that has a potency of 60. Whm has dia that has a potency of 120. It might had miasma before 5.0. Sch is weakest out of the 3 healers. Only one with miasma is the summoner not the scholar. Scholar doesn't have bane that spreads it out to other enemies. Like the summoner has. Only attack spells scholar has is broil, energy drain, and biolysis at level 80.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Sch doesn't have a attack that's hits more than one monster at a time. Sch doesn't have miasma II. Only aoe it has at level 80 is Biolysis that has a potency of 60. Whm has dia that has a potency of 120. It might had miasma before 5.0. Sch is weakest out of the 3 healers. Only one with miasma is the summoner not the scholar. Scholar doesn't have bane that spreads it out to other enemies. Like the summoner has. Only attack spells scholar has is broil, energy drain, and biolysis at level 80.

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You have Art of War, my dude. Please put it on your hotbar.
http://i.imgur.com/wvV4Phm.jpg