Tales from the Shadows

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...75744/emet.png

I don't know why I made this, but for some reason the line about Emet-Selch waking up in Garlemald and immediately scowling made me laugh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...75744/emet.png

I don't know why I made this, but for some reason the line about Emet-Selch waking up in Garlemald and immediately scowling made me laugh.

---

Well now I need to save this image for reaction purposes lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

...It may be significant, that in contemporary times the idea of creating a Soul doesn't seem to be that big a deal (the Heavensward Relic being one example), whereas the Ancients considered it to be flat-out impossible. This may be due to the way that the current Lifestream is constantly dispersing and assembling souls - soulstuff may simply be more malleable now?

---

What I think this points out is something else. When it came to creation magic they definitely were only considering instant results. And why wouldn't they? If you can create anything why settle for anything you have to put effort in, aka raising someone/thing? I think we may see some more insights into this mentality, or their hubris if you will, the Ancients might have had. And perhaps the insights the Ascians gained as the world sundered and they had to live for millennia like we do now. Maybe they got an appreciation for it? Maybe they understand better how a soul can come to be (see Alpha and Omega)? Or perhaps we'll see they even hate things and the current situation even more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crushnight

It is interesting to know Hades was the last to be apart of the convocation of the fourteen, meaning our original self already held a prominent position within Amaurotian society before Emet-Selch seat was filled, wonder what we were in charge of and what our seat name was too.

.

---

Well we do know from ingame informations that the positions do get free from time to time and since we dont know when this was happening it could be that we were not part of it. Like Scintilla said, why would we need to be informed if we are already part of it?

Anyway: I really liked this story. I really hope that we get more such things ingame in some ways, because it saddens me that such informations are right now only found outside the game. And its really interesting how those few sentences already made me like Hythlo. I thought of him as more of a serious person after the talk ingame but he seems to be a nice and funny guy, while Hades seemingly always was a bit moody.

I guess the underworld is just their name for the lifestream? But if the cycle of death and rebirth is quite known to them and some can even see the departed souls flying around until they get to the underworld...why could they not accept the sacrifices? I always thought that death simply was not something common to them and such a big amount might have been too much to bear but seemingly they die just like us, but are probably getting a lot older. So why their reaction after the willing sacrifices?

Also its good to know that most of their creations were without souls. This at least shows why they just grind the monsters back into crystals in that one quest.

Edit: Its a bit sad that the past!us (even if he/she is not us) was not shown in any way in this. They are not us directly anyways so I see no harm in them giving the person a bit of character.

Ok, so I want Hades back. I didn't before, but I do now. Minus the Zodiark tempering. Let him help fix things for real now, instead of just going thru with a plan that is only truly gonna serve a primal.

So, did Hades basically perform a sending on the soul trapped within the fire bird? Is Hades a grumpy, tsundere Yuna? Is that what we have here? lol Also, I guess this shows that not just any old ascian could have plucked Y'shtola from the lifestream. We're lucky it was Hades, specifically, who we were dealing with at the time. Catgirl has nine lives.

I am just so happy we got characterization of past!Hades. I see what Hythlodaeus meant about him being earnest. Interesting that he basically "blames" Hythlodaeus for his promotion to the Convocation here. Its funny to think that he didn't really want the responsibility back then.

Also, the whole musing about his son and his grandson ("this body's grandson" :() was sad and also made me want to slap him. Which... basically sums up the two feelings Hades always has me vacillating between so good job, writers.

Finally: "Consumed by the fear of death, it thrashes blindly about. It will know only pain and suffering and inflict the same upon others. A pitiful existence." Ouch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

Edit: Its a bit sad that the past!us (even if he/she is not us) was not shown in any way in this. They are not us directly anyways so I see no harm in them giving the person a bit of character.

---

I'm curious about why they don't do that. I understand why they don't want to characterize the Warrior of Light, namely they don't want to step on players' toes and want us all to be able to apply the story to our WoL. But they seem to be using that same logic about the Amaurotine precursor, right down to the gender of them somehow changing depending on our present WoL, and that just doesn't make sense to me. Are our current character choices going to impact that precursor somehow? Is time a circle or something? Seriously, what is with making the precursor's details dependent on a fragment of their future self instead of being their own established character? Don't get me wrong; I absolutely loved that we got a mention at all and got to see Hades' reaction to it. I'm just confused, cus the writing this expac is so good and yet this nonsensical story choice is happening.

Whew! A wild ride. I've updated the OP and am still catching up on the conversation, but what questions do we have lingering from this year's stories?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

but what questions do we have lingering from this year's stories?

---

Why are there only four? T_T

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Whew! A wild ride. I've updated the OP and am still catching up on the conversation, but what questions do we have lingering from this year's stories?

---

*big inhale*

Honestly I'm a sucker for the glory of the past and it's little details that have me foaming at the mouth over everything Amaurot. Emet holds disdain over how people never learn and petty feuds, but in his age gossip spread as did negative emotions. A soul that passed with regret, what- during that time, could have cause that? Also his own negativity. The Ancients lived in a Eutopia, but how were issues resolved when there's still room for something deviating from absolute positivity?

What were other cities/people doing? Could there have been strife that he genuinely did not know about? Or did everyone hold hands, sing songs and never act on violence?

Personally, I'm most happy to have the final piece to complete my headcanon for how my character came to summon demi-Phoenix. :D

(It continues to disappoint me that the "official" WoL has an apparent aversion to taking on spellcasting jobs. The summoner remains, in my mind, one of the strongest contenders for the WoL's actual canonical discipline, given its many links to the MSQ and game lore.)

Other than that, it was a huge bonus to learn more about Amaurot, and the society of the Ancients. I would easily rank this the best of the four Tales from the Shadows.

Yes... I am very happy that my WoL now has a place other then Coils to have gotten Phoenix from... Thumbing through the back-catalog of concepts in Aldyner and finding one that looks very familiar and figuring out how to make use of it by the last Hades fight feels a lot more in line with what the WoL would do rather then make use of a Primal the Scions didn't want anyone to know about...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Personally, I'm most happy to have the final piece to complete my headcanon for how my character came to summon demi-Phoenix. :D

(It continues to disappoint me that the "official" WoL has an apparent aversion to taking on spellcasting jobs. The summoner remains, in my mind, one of the strongest contenders for the WoL's actual canonical discipline, given its many links to the MSQ and game lore.)

Other than that, it was a huge bonus to learn more about Amaurot, and the society of the Ancients. I would easily rank this the best of the four Tales from the Shadows.

---

It definitely feels like SMN should be the canon DPS job for the WoL due to its link to MSQ, just like how DRK is pretty much the WoL's canon tank job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleluia

I'm curious about why they don't do that. I understand why they don't want to characterize the Warrior of Light, namely they don't want to step on players' toes and want us all to be able to apply the story to our WoL. But they seem to be using that same logic about the Amaurotine precursor, right down to the gender of them somehow changing depending on our present WoL, and that just doesn't make sense to me. Are our current character choices going to impact that precursor somehow? Is time a circle or something? Seriously, what is with making the precursor's details dependent on a fragment of their future self instead of being their own established character? Don't get me wrong; I absolutely loved that we got a mention at all and got to see Hades' reaction to it. I'm just confused, cus the writing this expac is so good and yet this nonsensical story choice is happening.

---

I assume they are keeping the identity of our ancient WoLself under wraps in this tale simply because it hasn't been reviled ingame yet. Also they can't keep it a blank slate if we were the 14th conviction member, since that means we not only had our own title, red mask and glyph, but must've also been outstandingly skilled in a specific field of science or creation magic (if they try to pull a science of nodding joke, I am going to riot. Swea' on me mum Hydaelin).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Yes... I am very happy that my WoL now has a place other then Coils to have gotten Phoenix from... Thumbing through the back-catalog of concepts in Aldyner and finding one that looks very familiar and figuring out how to make use of it by the last Hades fight feels a lot more in line with what the WoL would do rather then make use of a Primal the Scions didn't want anyone to know about...

---

Commentary on Tumblr notes that this does mean one of Hades's most prominent memories was his first task as Emet-Selch being to remove an immortal firebird, and then twelve thousand years later he faces off against the Warriors of Light and the SMN pops out Demi-Phoenix and Hades just goes "oh FFS not again".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleluia

I'm curious about why they don't do that. I understand why they don't want to characterize the Warrior of Light, namely they don't want to step on players' toes and want us all to be able to apply the story to our WoL. But they seem to be using that same logic about the Amaurotine precursor, right down to the gender of them somehow changing depending on our present WoL, and that just doesn't make sense to me. Are our current character choices going to impact that precursor somehow? Is time a circle or something? Seriously, what is with making the precursor's details dependent on a fragment of their future self instead of being their own established character? Don't get me wrong; I absolutely loved that we got a mention at all and got to see Hades' reaction to it. I'm just confused, cus the writing this expac is so good and yet this nonsensical story choice is happening.

---

Especially since the WoL is already not 100% our own. This is a linear story so SE already takes the decisions for us. We may sometimes be able to choose between two to three sentences but I also often find myself not happy with those either. So they are already giving us their character which we can use to fill in the blanks they have left. But with the Amaurot!WoL they are not us. We just share part of their souls but seemingly nothing more.

The part with the gender is also a bit confusing for me too. Maybe they just wanted to use that to show us that we once were that person which makes it more clear if it changes gender depending on which one we have. But at the same time Ardbert, a soul shard of us, is male no matter the character (which makes the talking through us scene a bit funny as a female)...at the same time if Derplander is the canon look of the WoL then they too look nearly identical..just like the soul shards of other people we know do..

About souls and the underworld: If those souls can be seen even after death does that mean that either the underworld in the past did not change the soul or does it even imply that the Scions idea behind the lifestream is wrong and its not just only some souls that continues to exist and be reborn but that everyone does? Or is this just their final moments before they became part of the underworld and disappeared until they are formed into a new soul? I like the idea more that souls will exist no matter what and that maybe the difference to the old time is only in us not keeping our memories..maybe that is why Sadus tribe can see who that soul belonged too..because they still have some of that power left to see the colors of the souls..and it would only make sense to have such souls if they dont disappear and rebuilt right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

Especially since the WoL is already not 100% our own. This is a linear story so SE already takes the decisions for us. We may sometimes be able to choose between two to three sentences but I also often find myself not happy with those either. So they are already giving us their character which we can use to fill in the blanks they have left. But with the Amaurot!WoL they are not us. We just share part of their souls but seemingly nothing more.

The part with the gender is also a bit confusing for me too. Maybe they just wanted to use that to show us that we once were that person which makes it more clear if it changes gender depending on which one we have. But at the same time Ardbert, a soul shard of us, is male no matter the character (which makes the talking through us scene a bit funny as a female)...at the same time if Derplander is the canon look of the WoL then they too look nearly identical..just like the soul shards of other people we know do..

About souls and the underworld: If those souls can be seen even after death does that mean that either the underworld in the past did not change the soul or does it even imply that the Scions idea behind the lifestream is wrong and its not just only some souls that continues to exist and be reborn but that everyone does? Or is this just their final moments before they became part of the underworld and disappeared until they are formed into a new soul? I like the idea more that souls will exist no matter what and that maybe the difference to the old time is only in us not keeping our memories..maybe that is why Sadus tribe can see who that soul belonged too..because they still have some of that power left to see the colors of the souls..and it would only make sense to have such souls if they dont disappear and rebuilt right?

---

If the individuals were so much more powerful then, it's possible that their souls were more resilient and less likely to degrade in the Lifestream. Since each soul has a color, it'd explain why Hades saw an aurora of them in Amaurot and something sickly and putrid after the Sundering- the "colors" were running together instead of staying distinct.

Very interesting story, and will be good to have it in mind for replaying Shadowbringers.

It sheds more light on Hades' attitude toward Varis in his introduction, which was a big sticking point for me seeing him as a sympathetic character during the game.

Could the "shift in the laws of the star" have caused things to develop souls more easily?

The "Words of Lahabrea" seems an odd phrase. Is it an organisation? Is it the full form of Lahabrea's title?


On a side note, I think they've messed up with that "city landscape" screenshot and showed the buildings from an angle we're not supposed to see - look at that floating one! In-game you can't see the bottom edge of it. Looks like they might have one double-ended skyscraper model that they use in different configurations to create different parts of the city buildings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

We can perhaps learn a fair amount from this story. Let's weave it all together. In the time of Amaurot, there was indeed one race, one people.

---

I don't think we can 100% confirm the "one race, one people" thing yet though - they're just described as "men" and race isn't talked about. In modern Eorzea all the races can equally be referred to as men (and women) regardless of race, so it's not impossible that the races exist at that point and simply aren't being talked about.

And it still requires the question of how the races came into existence if the Sundering simply split the world into multiple copies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

Only Deus ex Phoenix I want to see is Alphinaud finally popping out a Phoenix-Egi.

---

I'm still headcanoning that's what his Ruby Carbuncle actually is, seeing as he wouldn't be able to summon Ifrit (to our knowledge) but he does have the 'aether blueprint' for a fire-aspected egi that has to be kept secret...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crushnight

Crazy theory time, i wonder if the soul of that Phoenix was the start of the cry/voice that started making everything go foobar, fear of death is a very powerful fear and for near immortal beings with creation magics could be spread fast from a singular point creating untold destruction. It would be also add another layer of sadness to Hades's tale if he inadvertently caused the original calamity by forcing this soul back into the underworld.

---

Definitely an interesting possibility!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It did bring up a few very puzzling things, though! The Underworld, for instance... Is this supposed to be the Lifestream? If so, is it the SAME Lifestream we know? It appears that there's a cycle of life and death involving the Underworld... are the Ancients themselves, being immortal beings, not a part of it? Or are they still subject to it on the rare occasions when they do die, or are born?

---

It sounds like the Underworld is the place where the [Lifestream-or-equivalent] runs - but then the general idea of aether visibly swirling around and flowing through the world is perhaps an extension of the same process. Perhaps the deep aetherial realm is the only place where the flow of aether is still strong enough to be perceived as a 'stream'. Or perhaps Zodiark altered how the flow behaves.


I don't think the Ancients are immortal though - just very long-lived compared to humans. Emet talks about them "living for an age" (ie. era) at one point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

It seems [Emet] was pretty reclusive back then, an interesting change from the man we came to know, but at the same time mayhap it was this special sensory with every kind of life and soul that made him, in a sense, the most sociable of the Ascians.

Apparently Hythlodaeus was the original smug, cheeky character, more similar to Emet in the present.

---

I disagree about the personalities being different - present-Emet might be "smug" but in a different way, and he's certainly not "cheeky". I think the withdrawn, somewhat irritated personality he has here seems consistent with how he is in-game - he still seems like the sort of character who would have a snarky sense of humour in a different situation, and act like he's less impressed with things than he actually is.

Hythlodaeus seems to be a more good-natured, openly friendly person who might tease his friends but only because he knows they'll be okay with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ExKage

Let me ask then, from where did you think that Architect is a role, capital A? If we do in fact take it from a seated title (Words of Lahabrea) then isn't the case that Hythlodaeus is not it as Hythlodaeus refuses to take the seat/role?

---

In the city we have three visible buildings that are labeled as Bureaus: the Architect, Administrator and Secretariat, which does suggest that the Architect is a position of power in the city - whether it is part of the Convocation or something separate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleluia

Why are there only four? T_T

---

Given the pattern so far, we should be getting another four stories at some later point, though I'm not sure when.

I feel like we're going to need more than eight total though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

(It continues to disappoint me that the "official" WoL has an apparent aversion to taking on spellcasting jobs. The summoner remains, in my mind, one of the strongest contenders for the WoL's actual canonical discipline, given its many links to the MSQ and game lore.)

---

Same - it just makes a lot of sense, and ties in with all sorts of core story elements like the Ascians, summoning and Allagan technology.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daralii

If the individuals were so much more powerful then, it's possible that their souls were more resilient and less likely to degrade in the Lifestream. Since each soul has a color, it'd explain why Hades saw an aurora of them in Amaurot and something sickly and putrid after the Sundering- the "colors" were running together instead of staying distinct.

---

Could be, although that line is more about the intensity of the light than the colour. Instead of the radiant light of aether that he could once see, there's just a weak glow left.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

The "Words of Lahabrea" seems an odd phrase. Is it an organisation? Is it the full form of Lahabrea's title?

---

The "Words of Lahabrea" appear as the name of a section of Akademia Anyder, specifically, the last section leading up to Quetzacotl. Considering what the Akademia is (a research institute), it is likely that the "Words of Lahabrea" was simply one of the departments of research there, headed by the current Lahabrea, which means it specialised in phantomology, which this story in turn suggests would be the study of arcane entities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

The "Words of Lahabrea" appear as the name of a section of Akademia Anyder, specifically, the last section leading up to Quetzacotl. Considering what the Akademia is, it is likely that the "Words of Lahabrea" was simply one of the departments of research, the one headed by the current Lahabrea, which means it specialised in phantomology, which this story suggests would be the study of arcane entities.

---

Ah, that makes sense. I did think I'll need to double-check the Akademia for references next time I get it in the roulette. It's my least-favourite of the dungeons so I won't be running it deliberately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Ah, that makes sense. I did think I'll need to double-check the Akademia for references next time I get it in the roulette. It's my least-favourite of the dungeons so I won't be running it deliberately.

---

From what I remember, the Anyder is divided into departments named after seats on the Convocation. The ones we visit are the Words of Mitron(ichthyology), Halmarult(phytobiology), and Lahabrea(phantomology). The notes in the Words of Lahabrea are the only ones that relate to the Convocation as it was at the time of the Terminus, with the other two talking about the originals and their fields of study.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/e259c891...d71e17ac3e.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Given the pattern so far, we should be getting another four stories at some later point, though I'm not sure when.

I feel like we're going to need more than eight total though.

---

Yeah, but weren't the slots for them always there on the site for the previous sets? I remember Stormblood's slots all being there from teh start, at least. I want to say Dragonsong War had all 8 there too. Tales from teh Calamity didn't, but then its whole ui is a different format anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleluia

Yeah, but weren't the slots for them always there on the site for the previous sets? I remember Stormblood's slots all being there from teh start, at least. I want to say Dragonsong War had all 8 there too. Tales from teh Calamity didn't, but then its whole ui is a different format anyway.

---

They could still pull out a "Tales of the XXX" with 4 stories, having to do perhaps with MSQ coming in the upcoming patches... Especially if they keep the pattern of "big things coming up in X.3 patch!"

This story is really something that gets my mind working.

It seemingly does confirm that there were only Ancient ones living at that time which was hinted already ingame but its nice to know it for sure now. Which of course begs the question on when the different races came to be and why? Did they came to be after Zodiark changed the laws of nature thus souls were suddenly reborn in different bodies? But that does not make much sense to me because why should two Ancients suddenly produce something else? Or did some Ancient grew bored of their looks and just builded new bodies for themselves and inserted their souls into that? Maybe the accident with Phoenix even gave them the idea?

It also seemingly confirms that they truly wanted to sacrifice sapient life because only those with souls seems to count as being truly alive and not those things they created. And if not a whole mass of new souls formed than this would mean that they were ready to sacrifice Ancient ones for that. (More to that later)

And it was not 100% a paradise either. Having such a soul who is filled with such negative emotions latch itself to the phoenix shows that bad stuff must have happened too. Maybe just not that much in Amaurot and maybe not on the scale of our conflicts like war. Also wonder if maybe they were not able to get sick? Since they made the point that Solus son died to sickness.

In my first post about this story I asked myself on why they would not accept the sacrifice and I have found two possibilites after thinking about it.

First idea: Zodiark might have gotten his own soul through the sacrifice of these countless of souls. Souls that have just witnessed the most horrible thing they ever had. We know from the phoenix that this can influence how the vessel acts. Maybe being formed from that much tragedy and negative emotions made him more dark himself. He was created, got a powerful soul thanks to the sacrifice and later got even more powerful with more souls..and suddenly that stops because the conflict is done...but he wants more of that. So he tells his tempered followers that he would give the sacrificed people back in exchange for more sacrifice. Of course he could have been telling the truth if he would get more souls for each soul for example. Or he could have lied.

The second idea takes Zodiark out of this. First I thought that the word "underworld" could mean that they had some sort of afterlife...but if you are nearly immortal and someone dies..wouldnt you still be quite sad about this because you might never see them if you never die yourself? Also the story seems to go more with rebirth and reincarnation so an afterlife should have been a bit strange. A lifestream where the soul is changed and the memories are taken away also does not make sense since they are seemingly quite positive about it. Also if that was the case then death itself would have been something common and known to them and should make them accepting of the sacrifice..

But what if their lifestream was not like that? What if the person died but was reborn again with the same memories as before? Then people would imo not fear death. It would just be like a long sleep and when you wake up from it you have your loved ones still in reach and can make new friends along the way. The catastrophe was bad for them because to be reborn again you kinda needed people alive for that. (And it would explain why they did not do much before it reached their city...who cares about those others..they can just be reborn again) So a part of Amaurot sacrificed themselvs to save their race but in the aftermath, when they had time to think about it, to understand whats happen, they suddenly realize that these people will be lost forever. That they are truly death. They wont be reborn, they wont see them again..so for the first time in their lifes they have come face to face with true death and could not deal with it. Maybe Hythlo was among them too. And then they thought that since they had stopped the catastrophe, they had the rights to truly play gods and to use other souls of ancients later on to get their friends and loved ones back. And of course the group that later will summon Hydealyn and some other Amaurots might have not liked that idea. Did not believe that they have the right to make others feel the pain and sorrow. Thus the conflict was born that would change everything.

This would at least in some way explain why they acted that way. Maybe it was both ideas in one. Zodiark saw them with sorrow and pain and suddenly promised that he could give their souls back in exchange for more. And because they were tempered and in pain they might have believed it (because I doubt that this would be possible) while others saw through that and wanted to stop these senseless sacrifices.

Maybe Hydealyn was even given the power over the lifestream with the wish to take away the memories of the people so that they will be reborn without the burden of the past. Because all is great if you die without regrets and had a good life..but being reborn after dieing in a horrible way? Having to see that memories in your minds again and again? Couldnt that even lead to the creation magic being out of control again? Maybe they thought it would be better to start anew.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

It seemingly does confirm that there were only Ancient ones living at that time which was hinted already ingame but its nice to know it for sure now. Which of course begs the question on when the different races came to be and why? Did they came to be after Zodiark changed the laws of nature thus souls were suddenly reborn in different bodies? But that does not make much sense to me because why should two Ancients suddenly produce something else? Or did some Ancient grew bored of their looks and just builded new bodies for themselves and inserted their souls into that? Maybe the accident with Phoenix even gave them the idea?

---

What is implied is that the Ancients' race was sundered by Hydaelyn into the various races we know of. Nothing says that Hydaelyn can only sunder objects. she could very well be able to sunder concepts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

What is implied is that the Ancients' race was sundered by Hydaelyn into the various races we know of. Nothing says that Hydaelyn can only sunder objects. she could very well be able to sunder concepts.

---

I don't think that's what's implied, though. The association between the races and the Ancients seems to be that the ancients all got sundered in to soul fragments and their soul fragments are being reborn in the sentient races. If the theory that the Echo is something tied to having an Ancient soul is true, then that would mean not every sentient is an Ancient soul fragment, since not all people have the echo. Which means they exist as species, independent of having an ancient soul or not. Which means they're not splinter branches off the Ancients, cus it makes no sense that only some of the ancients' descendants would have ancient souls, cus where'd the souls for the others come from in that scenario?

I think its much more likely the current sentient species were what Zodiark created when he "refreshed the life of the star" via the 2nd sacrifice. And these sentient beings were part of what was going to be sacrificed in the 3rd round, and that's what was morally reprehensible enough for some of the non-tempered Ancients to summon Hydaelyn as a countermove. It also explains why they're present on all worlds since Hydaelyn would have made copies of them when she copied everything else.

I'm of the mind that it's one of a few explanations for the races of the world as we know them:

1 - natural evolutionary drift. If we take Emet in the MSQ at his word, he's lived "a thousand thousand" of our lifetimes. Maybe he was exaggerating (he is Emet after all) but assuming he wasn't using hyperbole, and assuming an average age of 50 years among the "civilized" races of the world, that's 50x1000x1000=50,000,000. 50 million years of existence. Even just assuming an average age of 30 that's still 30 million years. That's a long time for life to develop. Whether it developed "naturally" from primordial muck or was a result of creations made by the Ancients that now had souls of their own and were living free on the world is a point of debate, but the fact remains that the modern races possibly had the time to evolve normally from whatever ancestors came before them.

2 - full-on creation magic at work. The modern races were made as they are now via the Ancients themselves. The races may have been seeded as a means of "farming" them for the eventual sacrifice to Zodiark, given enough sapience to be worthy of a soul but without the "completion" that came with being an Ancient. The racial variation that exists could have been practical (Hrothgar/Ronso are larger and furry, more adapted to cold climates than the comparatively smaller Lalafell/Dwarves) or it could have been something of an aesthetic thing; after all, if you're going to make an entire race of sapient beings as a venerated Ancient master of creation magic, you may as well go all the way and make them physiologically distinct. What's the point of doing a good job when you can also do a good job and create beauty in the process? It may as well have been a combination of the two, i.e. giving racial distinction to keep things different and interesting while also addressing the environments that each race was expected to inhabit. The small stature of the Plainsfolk and Dunesfolk serve as cover against larger predators and help mitigate the effects of various forms of harsh weather. Small height means less materials needed for clothing or housing to protect from the elements as well as an easier time of hiding in small gullys and valleys to avoid being eaten.

3 - Zodiark did it. As Alleluia noted, when he "refreshed" the life of the star, the other sapient races came into being. The way they are now may be a result of Zodiark making them this way, or else it may just be natural evolutionary drift. Whether the purpose of these races was to be sacrificed to Zodiark is unknown; all we know for sure is that the Ancient Ascian's of the Thirteen had planned to sacrifice all of this life in order to bring about the resurrection of their fallen brethren. Whether or not Zodiark had a hand in planting this idea is not known, and there's nothing to support it, so every possibility exists that Zodiark created these races as a part of his grand plan to refresh the life of the star. This opens up the disturbing possibility that Zodiark created these races for a reason; perhaps they were a core part of the balance that Zodiark was creating and trying to maintain. If that's the case, then elimination of these races via a large-scale sacrifice would ultimately be disastrous for the star, and serve as a tragic undertone to the entire Ascian plan. If the removal of said races disrupts the balance of the star, things could very well collapse back in on themselves, only this time there won't be a race of willing aether-rich nigh-immortals to sacrifice to Zodiark in order to make things right again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

1 - natural evolutionary drift. If we take Emet in the MSQ at his word, he's lived "a thousand thousand" of our lifetimes. Maybe he was exaggerating (he is Emet after all) but assuming he wasn't using hyperbole, and assuming an average age of 50 years among the "civilized" races of the world, that's 50x1000x1000=50,000,000. 50 million years of existence. Even just assuming an average age of 30 that's still 30 million years. That's a long time for life to develop. Whether it developed "naturally" from primordial muck or was a result of creations made by the Ancients that now had souls of their own and were living free on the world is a point of debate, but the fact remains that the modern races possibly had the time to evolve normally from whatever ancestors came before them.

---

I believe the Sundering was established to have taken place about 12,000 years ago, a bit before the First Umbral Era. Emet-Selch's statement was almost certainly hyperbole, making mock of how brief the modern races' lifetimes are compared to an Ancient's.

Why do I get this sneaking suspicion Hythlodaeus played us like fools in the past during ancient times?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Helliebabe

Why do I get this sneaking suspicion Hythlodaeus played us like fools in the past during ancient times?

---

Now you got me thinking that it'll be revealed that he was the true villain all along.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Helliebabe

Why do I get this sneaking suspicion Hythlodaeus played us like fools in the past during ancient times?

---

The man whose name literally means "Speaker of nonsense" in Greek? It's possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RenewalXVII

Emet-Selch's statement was almost certainly hyperbole

---

When he said the thousand-thousand lifetimes thing, my first reaction was to count up how many lifetimes I could conceivably fit into 12,000 years and then I sent a friend of mine a tell that just said, "Absolute drama king." I'm glad other people had similar reactions, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Helliebabe

Why do I get this sneaking suspicion Hythlodaeus played us like fools in the past during ancient times?

---

.... Oh.

Oh.

Oh, I like this theory. I mean, its full of tinfoil and I don't think its likely, yet. But still, it could be interesting. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

When he said the thousand-thousand lifetimes thing, my first reaction was to count up how many lifetimes I could conceivably fit into 12,000 years and then I sent a friend of mine a tell that just said, "Absolute drama king." I'm glad other people had similar reactions, lol.

---

I didn't bother counting and just assumed it was hyperbole for "I've been here a really long time and I've hated it, okay?!". I mean, at the time I was just enthralled with the scene, but yeah. lol "drama king".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleluia

Yeah, but weren't the slots for them always there on the site for the previous sets? I remember Stormblood's slots all being there from teh start, at least. I want to say Dragonsong War had all 8 there too. Tales from teh Calamity didn't, but then its whole ui is a different format anyway.

---

Both the Tales from the Dragonsong War and the Tales from the Storm only showed 4 slots each in the first year of their respective expansions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

When he said the thousand-thousand lifetimes thing, my first reaction was to count up how many lifetimes I could conceivably fit into 12,000 years and then I sent a friend of mine a tell that just said, "Absolute drama king." I'm glad other people had similar reactions, lol.

---

I remember reading that a "thousand thousand" is used in Japanese as an unspecific-but-big number. So it's more like saying "countless" than giving a statistic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

I remember reading that a "thousand thousand" is used in Japanese as an unspecific-but-big number. So it's more like saying "countless" than giving a statistic.

---

It's the character for ten thousand (万); it can mean "myriad" or "beyond counting" or "all".

For example, in the Fatal Frame series there is an HP-Restore item called 万葉丸 (10,000-leaf Pills) which is kind of just a dismissive hand-wave anyone will understand; you're magically healed because ALL THE HERBS. Every time I see a [10,000] in something localized from JP, my mind reflectively checks whether that's legit or an accident, lol.

The Japanese script decided to have Emet-Selch instead say, "I've lived among your kind longer than anyone else!" FR matched JP, DE matched EN.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleluia

I didn't bother counting and just assumed it was hyperbole for "I've been here a really long time and I've hated it, okay?!". I mean, at the time I was just enthralled with the scene, but yeah. lol "drama king".

---

"I have lived a thousand thousand of your lifetimes."

"But it's only been twelve thousand years since the Sundering."

"Twelve thousand years with nobody but Lahabrea and Elidibus for real company is a thousand thousand lifetimes."

Makes me think that Emet was really stuck in hell for all that time with no one but his mother in law lol

And just like that, I sympathize with him even more. Elidibus seems alright but 12 thousand years with Lahabrea, Master Orator? /shudder

You know this story might even answer my question on why Elidibus never took us out as soon as he saw us in the earlier story...our soul is not complete so the color is probably not that easy to see and he might simply not be one of the Ancients that can see them.

Still wonder why his position allowed him to go against their dress code and let him wear white..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It may be significant, that in contemporary times the idea of creating a Soul doesn't seem to be that big a deal (the Heavensward Relic being one example), whereas the Ancients considered it to be flat-out impossible. This may be due to the way that the current Lifestream is constantly dispersing and assembling souls - soulstuff may simply be more malleable now?

---

Maybe it's a matter of perspective?

Ancient souls are like floodlights compared to the dying embers of the sundered, maybe they could whip up what we consider to be souls, but they didn't consider them as such.

If what you're going for is blinding light and what you actually get are a few paltry sparks, you could hardly consider the attempt a success.

Yeah, I definitely subscribe to the "thousand thousand lifetimes" line having the dual implications of him mocking the significantly more ephemeral lifespans of the sundered and him over-exaggeration how long he's put up with everything for EMPHASIS!!!