And the patch notes are out and they did.....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
The fucking surprise, the absolute genius.
Enjoy 2 years of this shit I'm not gonna endure another stormblood waiting for changes that will never come
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07-30-2019, 05:20 PMGiubba
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07-30-2019, 05:41 PMshao32
It can be a 50/50 thing or a bad thing. 50/50 if they are making big changes and anything that can appear could be equally worse or by a miracle fix DRK gameplay, and a bad thing is they choose to ignore DRK as usual and probably we only see changes on living dead as much which is the one I expect, 2 years of trash dark warrior.
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07-30-2019, 05:52 PMADVSSPretty much, if they even touch LD. Heard they were "looking into it" so I guess theres some hope there. As far as what else they would do for/to DRK, its up in the air at the moment, if anything. They're not wrong, it is a functional tank, it does what tanks do, much less in some areas, but what can you do?Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
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07-30-2019, 09:12 PMshao32
Keep conplainting, we won't get a change if we remain silent.
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08-01-2019, 11:10 PMDragonkatTHANK YOUQuote:
Originally Posted by Valic
I'm fed up myself with the daily parser check who is where everything must be perfect savage raider mentality infecting the rest of the game. Even more so with the fact they seem to think they're the only ones who get any say in game balance. Looking at you too Lyth, take that oh you're doing a 70 roulette you know nothing attitude and [dark arts] your [dark arts] right back up your [dark arts] to make the meme. Last time I checked 70 was the top of the game pre ShB. And do you honestly think adding stalwart soul and that living DoT I mean shadow really address the core issues my OP was attempting to bring up?
Honestly it's that mentality that dark arts had to be spammed every time for MAXIMUM DPS RAWR! that I blame for part of these changes. No it didn't. It was a utility power that gave you options. Add a blind to DP, add extra potency to syphon at the -trade off- to not getting the MP you may need for another TBN instead if it breaks too soon and your quietus can't keep AD going (not that we have any of these problems now)
Again this is the big beef I have DRK has zero options now. Most of all it's risk vs reward factor. It's (the quite legit complaint) of being a warrior knock off. You pop Delirium when it's up for your burst window and that insulting MP non gain BS gives. Because you lack the resources to now properly mitigate mass pulls so quietus is a may as well not bother, given it's risk vs reward factor was trashed anyway.
Some of us do play for fun, and that does not instantly make us casual scrubs. It makes us people who enjoy the class for what it is, and what it was able to do before the gutting it suffered. See the joy of mass pulls with AD and Quietus. You didn't need to be optimized, you just needed to be effective. Trying to hide behind your cutesy "don't get triggered bro" crap doesn't change that fact. It just shows you don't have much a counter argument. -
08-01-2019, 11:12 PMDragonkat
That said, i'd like to share a convo I had with friends about this. This after playing a bit of GNB (night and day difference in fun factor!) When one who was playing a healer mentioned how easily TBN was breaking on trash mobs when i've had the opposite problem. Turning out the reason was said DRK was under geared.
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Me: Just trying to come at this from a different direction when i start thinking about brutal shell, which is shield and self heal built into one combo. But maybe not really the right thing to work off of as it's not a fair comparison to TBN, that'd be more nebula or camo.... Basically chicken and egg sorta. Its weird how DRK's shield contradicts itself. You want 0 damage uptime, but for full effect you want enough incoming damage to break the shield before the duration ends. Whereas something like nebula gets the full effect regardless. And maybe the shield break mechanic is flawed now to me (and was it always flawed?) because it's now such a 1 to 1 tradeoff where a good healer keeps even lesser armored DRK's up regardless. Instead of the much larger trade off where you could rake in a goodly amount of MP with old quietus if you played the cards right past the TBN cost, and for what was a more tanagible visible gain than darkside for 30 secs.
Friend 1: I mean You get a tangible reward for the shield not breaking, It's called 7 seconds of invulnerability, Because none of your HP was consumed in that window, And that is not perfectly efficient, But it's still 7 seconds the healer can DPS for
Me: right, but that's just it, other classes get a full effect for popping a cooldown, DRK has to say either i get 7 seconds of no damage, or i get less than but i get a damage buff. But why not just take the buff if the healer can keep me up -regardless- of my shield? 7 seconds would be maybe two dps healer casts? three? A well lined up flood would do how much damage in comparison?
Friend 1: ...I mean a healer can technically keep you up without you using any defensive. At all. In normal content you aren't actually required to use them. You should, But you can survive any incoming damage with just the passive 20% DR
Me: thats not my argument though. That's a matter of non debate, what i'm trying to get across and i feel you're missing the point on is buff vs buff and the situational uses during. And how TBN is flawed because of it's dual nature. And need to actively seek out more damage than it can handle for less gain then old DRK got.
and is the issue i can't pin down in my head is, "Is it the mechanic of the shield itself that's inherently flawed. Or was old DRK able to get so much more gain for a break we didn't really notice this?" -
08-01-2019, 11:12 PMDragonkat
Friend 2: Have you got a Dr Pepper situation going on? (after asking what he meant?)
Hee-hee. A term I coined from history. Mum picked me up at school one day, told me she'd gotten a soda I could have some of, but it was the worst root beer she'd ever tasted. I took a sip, thought, and replied, "That's because it's Dr Pepper."
Meaning, is the old concept of how DRK operated interfering with how it should work now?
Friend 3: that's a possibility.that said, DRK wanting to get damaged for output is thematic.
Me: Ding. or as I boiled it down to like you said. Was the shield the problem, or how the class/other skills interacting with it the problem? Doesn't matter if it's root beer or dr pepper if the cup is hot and you've got no ice
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Comparing DRK to GNB this is now where I feel the issue is. The kit really contradicts itself and doesn't mesh at all anymore. Plus the skills it needs for proper sustain have either been nerfed into the ground or put on such long cooldowns for low potency (hi AD) that they're useless as even an oh **** button because a mass pull is that much harder anyway without DP's DA blind mitigation (i've started resorting to arms length for the slow) on top of TBN being much harder to break if you're overgeared (hence why i think i needs a 3 sec increase if anything) and the payoff for a free dps hit and a marginal dps increase vs the blood gauge is much less of a reward for the risk. If anything giving Darkside an increase is an option too?
GNB though? Everything fits, it flows, it's -FUN- And the combos actually have meaning, or more to the point if we're honest feel like they have meaning. Plus you have the options to weave your cooldowns in a way sorely missing in dark. Not to mention the fact it got DRK's old scourge hit and an aoe dot on top in the 60's? As another friend put it. "It's like they took all the bits from other tanks to make a complete one."
I just wish they'd take another look at DRK, it doesn't work anymore compared to the others. I'm happy I found a tank I can enjoy because i like secondary roles for my FC. But it still grates I no longer enjoy the one I liked. -
08-02-2019, 12:54 AMXan_Kriegor
I do not think current DRK is that awful like some people say. It already has a decent CPM if compared to other tankers and an overall good mitigation kit. However, it could get some tweaks and gameplay changes.
First of all, the most important issue right now is the Blood Weapon duration. It must be the same as Delirium. This way, even players with high ping can get five hits consistently at 2.38 GCD.
Living Dead could be reworked. There are a lot of ideas on forums, I will not talk about it here.
My issue with the gameplay of DRK is mostly the Darkside management. It is not a good design because the skill that gives the 10% damage buff is the same skill that you always want to use just to damage even if the buff is already up (Edge of Shadows). Also, people often complain about the boring downtime DRK has right now while oGCDs are not available and DRK is pooling MP for the next burst.
To fix those issues, I propose some changes based on some ideas I have heard from other DRK players.
Changes:
Salted Earth:
Action removed.
Salted Earth was nerfed for Shadowbringers and it is just a bad skill right now. It could be removed to open space for a more interesting skill.
Stalwart Soul:
Action is now learned at Level 52 instead of Level 72.
The removal of Salted Earth would allow our AoE combo action to be learned earlier. This will fix a problem DRK has that its AoE combo is only available at a high level while PLD and WAR have it earlier. Of course, Stalwart Soul will not give blood at level 52, it will start to provide blood only on Level 62 when Blackblood trait is learned. The mana provided for this action will help players to use more often Flood of Darkness at lower levels.
Edge of Darkness/Shadows:
These actions no longer grant Darkside effect.
This would be the major change. EoS/EoD would be used for pure damage, while FoS/FoD would be used for AoE situations AND to get Darkside effect up when needed. This would add more complexity to our Darkside management and will enhance the decision making in the Job. Of course, this change will result in potency loss, but it will be addressed later.
New Action Level 72:
Delivers an attack with a potency of 900 to target and all enemies nearby it. Can only be executed while under the effect of Delirium. Effect fades upon execution.
Additional Effect: Grants Darkside, increasing damage dealt by 10%
Duration: 30s
Extends Darkside duration by 30s to a maximum of 60s.
To fill the spot left open to the Job action of Level 72 we could get a combo finisher to the Delirium burst. This could also be an alternative way to up Darkside buff. So, now players have two ways to do it: either use a Flood of Shadows instead a Edge of Shadows or waiting for the next Delirium burst to regain it. Again, this will add more decision making to the DRK gameplay.
Abyssal Drain:
Recast reduced from 60s to 30s.
Carve and Spit:
Recast reduced from 60s to 30s.
These reductions will provide filler oGCDs to weave during DRK downtime. They are also compensations to the removal of Salted Earth. Carve and Spit with a shorter CD will help DRK's MP generation and Abyssal Drain will provide more self heal since it will be only 30 seconds recast.
I have not done the maths about these changes regarding its potencies, so it could need some potencies changes.
In short, with these changes I think most of the DRK gameplay problems would be addressed and it would become a more interesting Job to play. The Delirium burst will have some PLD flavor in there, so it will be more of a mix from WAR and PLD bursts instead of a "copy of IR" as a lot of people complain about. And the Darkside gauge would be useful now, since we will not spamming FoS mindlessly. The Job's CPM would be slightly higher than now, maybe it will reach GNB's CPM.
So, what do you guys think? Would you guys like these changes ? -
08-02-2019, 01:40 AMSancho_Nyanta
I think that they would have people saying that Drk is biting Pld and War's style instead of just War.
I would like to see the CD reductions to help deal with the down time. Also I'm not sure if the DPS loss having to use FoS vs EoS and SE would balance the increase of doubling C&S, AD and increased uses of EoS due to the MP gains of C&S. -
08-02-2019, 02:06 AMXan_KriegorI know. No Job is truly unique. One can always find similarities between actions among Jobs. However, having some similarities with different Jobs may create a unique kit, whereas having a lot of similarities with only one Job helps with the feeling of being a clone. DRK having some actions similar to PLD, other ones similar to WAR , high CPM, Mana and Darkside management would make the Job as a WHOLE really different from other tanks despite sharing specific similarities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancho_Nyanta
I am not sure either. However, it would be easy to fix that by reducing Carve and Spit potency to 300 for example, if needed. Also, if DRK gains a small amount of net potency with these changes would not be a problem, since it is slightly behind in DPS and these changes would increase (slightly) the difficult to play it optimally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancho_Nyanta
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08-02-2019, 06:43 AMArsthanI like those ideas, though a attack speed buff on BW would be still nice but I digress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xan_Kriegor
The main thing about your changes that interests me is the EoS/FoS change. That would actually give us Darkside management, which I'm totally up for. They could also achieve a similar thing with adding a new skills that either is used only to get/increase Darkside or meant purely for damage with no Darkside buff attached to it. Either way, the result is technically the same. I really like this and hope they'd do it. -
08-02-2019, 06:46 AMNalien
I both love and hate the Dark Arts rework.
The way we gain it now is nice, better than the old oGCD spam anyway. Everything else about it? Lackluster... Don't get me wrong, the whole breaking TBN and throwing out Edge of Shadow is exactly what I like about Samurai with Third Eye and Hissatsu: Seigan, but Dark Arts now... It's just boring...
For starters, it's essentially does nothing for you. You spend 3,000MP on TBN to save spending 3,000MP on Edge of Shadow... That's done nothing for me, I could just use Edge of Shadow to begin with... All this does is help my healer, which yes is a good thing, but it's not really satisfying for me personally... No more so than popping Rampart...
What I'd like to see is a return to the old Dark Arts effect. If it boosted potency as well? Then it's great. Could go for the same satisfying feeling as Inner Release with a Crit/DH modifier applies instead, although really lets not keep copying Warrior...
Even if you did that though, there's still a problem IMO, and that's what you spend Dark Arts on... Edge of Shadow, and AoEdge of Shadow. I'd prefer to see a return to how it used to be... Bring back Dark Arts Carve and Split, bring back Dark Arts Soul Eater, bring back Abyssal Drain... Perhaps not with the static potency increase, I'd prefer to see more additions made to their effect while under Dark Arts, and always have since Heavensward though sadly that never manifested. Basically I want to think what I spend Dark Arts on when I get it... Not just "Here's another Edge of Shadow, even though Darkside is basically never at risk of falling off...", that's just boring...
Now Delirium... Ugh... This is honestly a pathetic skill at this point... It's a lame Inner Release clone, and not a "We are Gods!" level of cloning, a "May God have mercy on our souls for creating this abomination..." level of cloning... Inner Release works because the Crit/DH makes Fell Cleave spam incredibly satisfying to do. Delirium does none of this... Bloodspiller spam is not satisfying to do, it's just there... By the same token, Paladins Requiescat spam phase isn't particularly satisfying, but at least they get a fancy finisher for it.. Christ, Delirium doesn't even net you enough MP for an additional Edge of Shadow...
That brings me to another point, actually... Dark Knight and MP... I get why Unmend, Unleash, and Abyssal Drain no longer cost MP... Still don't like it though... And the change to Blood Weapon no longer gaining MP from abilities? I liked lining it up with abilities to get the maximum amount of MP out of it... And Quietus... Oh Quietus... It was unbelievably satisfying to gain so much MP out of large pulls... Now it's nothing, except under Delirium where it's 500MP per Quietus, not per enemy hit... Same deal with Blood Weapon... Dropping Grit for Blood Weapon on large pulls was my favorite thing about this Job... A single Quietus off TBN, Blood Weapon and Quietus stacking and giving you basically infinite MP and building your gauge incredibly quickly (along with Salted Earth), spamming Quietus in that scenario was awesome, largely because you worked for it. Spamming it under Delirium? Zzz.
Honestly I'd prefer to go back to Stormblood Delirium... 50 Blood gauge for 3,000MP and extending the duration of Blood Weapon. Actually, throw in Darker Arts while we're at it... Rather than the current 10 seconds of Bloodspiller spam, give me 10 seconds of Dark Arts not being used up... Probably remove the Dark Arts = Free Edge of Shadow effect completely and adjust our MP costs accordingly... Don't want it shifting from Bloodspiller spam to Edge of Shadow spam... If it's still needed, you can instead have the TBN = a free Edge of Shadow function by having TBN restore MP when broken as well as Dark Arts, rather than Dark Arts having the 0 cost function. -
08-02-2019, 08:28 AMXenosan
Dark Arts has really no point in existing atm. TBN could just refund it's MP cost on shield pop (and expiration, preferably). Would be nice if that GUI/DA served another purpose.
I'm on the side of the fence that TBN should be and remain DPS neutral. The condition to change my mind on that would require TBN not being usable on other party members, ie the utility support feature of TBN must be moved to another action, DRK can only use TBN on themself.
Because otherwise the consequence of a DPS gain on TBN pop would be DRK players prioritizing essentially stoneskin spamming (and encouraging raid takes unnecessary damage to help them pop)
Has nothing to do with raising ceiling on the job like others say is the concern or fairness of balance with other tanks. For me its simply the playstyle consequence. That sort of feature does not feel appropriate for tank play experience. A healer, maybe. But even that is if-y.
And I say that as someone who really wants to see more counter-attack features added, not removed (the trend), from XIV. -
08-02-2019, 08:39 AMReynhartAnd then they'll die because they don't have enough MP to use TBN when mitigation is actually required.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenosan
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08-02-2019, 12:27 PMDuskane
Honestly I think it would have been great if Dark had mage ballad like game play
Scourge\salted earth share recast so can't stack and have chance to proc carve and split or abysmal drain
Much better spiritual successor to low blow reprisal proc era to TBN+ blood spiller in storm blood -
08-02-2019, 12:54 PMXan_Kriegor
Agreed. In my opinion, not having darkside management is one of the biggest design issues that DRK has.
I think that a similar way to solve It would be creating a blood spender action with less damage/blood than bloodspiller but with the additional effect to grant darkside effect. -
08-02-2019, 07:17 PMReynhartFor me, either you make Darkside harder to maitain (Edge/Flood cost more, MP regen is lower or you extend for less time) or, you give DRK another MP spender, and you'd have to judge if you have the MP to spare while still being able to reapply Darkside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xan_Kriegor
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08-03-2019, 04:25 AMAbsimiliard
I don't know if you guys have noticed this or not, but uh... SE has been making the classes more approachable on purpose. Making them readily accessible to everyone is better business design overall. We're probably never getting any sort of complexity added back to DRK. Instead, we need to focus on getting its weaknesses shored up a bit. I.e. Living Dead being garbage and TBN's scaling being so good that you eventually reach a point that even tankbusters can't pop it.
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08-03-2019, 04:29 AMDuskanewell i think more people want some identity back or at least the speedQuote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
Delerium being IR is just such a low blow -
08-03-2019, 04:30 AMReynhartMaking all of them close to breaindead is, IMO, a bad move because your hardcore players don't have a class that fit their need anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
It's the same move as replacing Savage by a few more expert dungeons. -
08-03-2019, 05:03 AMAbsimiliardAgreed. And luckily for us, the only tanks that are really brain dead right now are DRK and WAR. They should all be readily accessible, but DRK right now is uh... special.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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08-03-2019, 05:23 AMShurrikhanOddly enough I'm finding DRK a lot more annoying to play than GNB and PLD (which I leveled on my Tank alt; just made DRK rq for Ex roulettes on Healer alt) if only because I keep... falling asleep when playing it. That and the MP bar being effectively a gauge bar but unintuitively bound to the parameter bar that only 5 jobs really even need to track, instead of being freely moveable to beside my Blood gauge...Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
Until recent latency from ISP conflicts with the SE servers since 5.05, GNB was smooth as butter to play and it's always been incredibly easy to keep track of everything. DRK just feels so lazy by comparison that it can get kinda easy to slip up at times. -
08-03-2019, 06:06 AMAbsimiliardThat is a problem that I have been experiencing as well. It's so easy even in spite of its clunk that you'll make mistakes as your attention begins to wander. S'why I've mostly been sticking to PLD and GNB lately. The two are technically mechanically stronger (PLD for its defense and utility, GNB for its raw damage and utility) in some ways, but that takes a backseat to the fact that they are actually still enjoyable to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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08-06-2019, 04:51 AMDragonkat
So after playing more with gunbreaker to 68 and having just gotten heart of stone.... I'm finding myself still way too salty about this. A thought I had I'd like opinions on.
maybe an unfair comparison, but in terms of mini cooldowns i'll take a solid 15% cut to damage for a full seven seconds that can also double as a shield over the contradiction for paltry dps buffs. Minus the 1/3 of my total resource cost on top as the extra insult to me.
Hmmm I wonder if thats another difference that needs looking into, the fact GNB can pretty much bring it's full kit to bear whenever it wants without being hamstrung by insane mp costs that take far too long the recoup now for the gain you get? I mean the biggest attacks you have that would benifit from the increase either can't be used (flood) because of the cost. Or are limited to specific burst windows with warrior light cooldowns ahem, I mean Delirium. And your choice is get back MP with Q or or just take the free five hits for the joke of an mp gain with BS.
Could that be one other issue? The fact DRK's kit has been so cut there's nothing to really use while darkside is up? And it still feels to me like GNB puts out bigger numbers with more utility. I mean no mercy is double darkside's increase for a full 20 seconds. no cost. And is up 1/3 of the time anyway. But a darkside spender would need a solid 20-30 seconds of 123 combos and mp regen to get back the 3000 mp used. . . .
Of course this is also where unlike no mercy dark arts can be stored, but that takes again getting TBN to break, so we're back to the contradiction of choosing between either shield or overpowering damage without the sustain or the dps for it the way GNB can with it's 12-boom aoe + burst strike. Or the gnashing fang combo chain. and again you're either using it for dps, or you're using it to keep darkside up when needed... Provided you can egt TBN to even break in the window, which is an issue if you're overgeared to the point where even tank busters have issues.
Ugh maybe i'm just salty but it still feels like new DRK works too hard against itself to be effective. -
08-06-2019, 11:48 AMShurrikhanIn many ways, DRK fought itself hardest back in HW, and I kind of loved it for that. But yes, TBN does seem unfortunately... unintuitive, to be euphemistic, just as Living Dead will likely forever remain...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonkat
...Is it weird, though, that the non-mechanicness of Darkside kind of pisses me off even more than either of those equally glaring flaws?
And, let's be fair: You'd have to take what would have been 112% of your HP for HoS's mitigation to equal TBN's, despite TBN being available every 15 seconds, often able to intercept skills between the skills all other tanks can mitigate, while everyone else's is roughly 25 seconds. It's both far better, and more frequent... as long as you take enough damage. -
08-06-2019, 01:20 PMNedkel
Nothing wrong with current DRK.
Put the salt away, DRK was not supposed to be old DRK by any means, it was made for a sole purpose of doing tanking properly, thats why it had it complexity taken away.
Only lacking a little in party utility, but so is GNB.
Single target damage is fine, AOE damage is fine, mitigation is excellent since because of 1 ability that is really strong. MP generation is good enough to not be bothered by the overflow of MP.
Since there is little to no chance that SE will ever change their tanks to be more complex, the only thing i would like to ask for is the amount of MP generated by delirium skills, seriously it should generate 600 mp instead of 200, it feels like a waste of time to activate it and use it, does not feel good at all. -
08-06-2019, 01:29 PMDuskane
There is a lot wrong with Dark but its not detrimental to the class Right now
Party utility is the least of GNB and DRK worries -
08-06-2019, 01:59 PMshao32Being complex or not have nothing to do with tanking properly, idk what are you talking about but old DRK never have any problem fulfilling his dutys as a tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
This kills the reasons we get new jobs in the first place, you don't add a new jobs while making the rest similar, you adds new jobs to bring diversity on gameplay aesthetics and difficulty, destroying DRK gameplay and complexity it's against any logic, for that don't add DRK in the game in the first place if you are going to do that, don't add new jobs at all if you are going to rip everything and make all of them play literally the same, just add skins like fornite or whatever game that abuse of this and move on. -
08-06-2019, 02:26 PMNedkelComplexity comes with balance problems if not done right, it is difficult thing to have all 4 tanks being completely different but performing similar to each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
They cannot afford anymore risk of experimenting on the design, they gave us 4 tanks with the same core and flavoured it with some different extra abilities we use in between out combos and deffensives.
At least it is balanced as it was never been before, for a company of SE size its good enough since it does not require as much resources to put into, they could do a little tweaks here and there, does not have to bother that X is doing significantly less than Y.
If you want more ambitious games, then its time to change the mmorpg, this is the sad truth, big companies are not going to risk anything. -
08-06-2019, 02:49 PMshao32Surprisely they archive a good balance in terms of numbers in SB despite how different DRK works to the other tanks, or how balanced we are now despite GNB PLD and WAR having different and unique flows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
You don't really have an argument there specially since there is no experimenting, DRK flows already exist since 3.0, if they can't afford basic improvements to a already existing kit as they should they can't adds new jobs at all in the first place, GNB, DNC, SAM and RDM wouldn't see the light of the day and still here they are, and GNB is nothing like WAR or PLD at all so what is the excuse now?
You know I don't see they do the same with the DPS jobs the overpopulated role in the game, are you telling me they can afford diversity with 10 jobs and keep all of them relevant and fun, see the MCH and MNK rework keeping them unique and different to his counter parts but they can't do that with DRK? Betwen 4 jobs? Despite 3 of them being pretty different of each other excep one that has been gutted BCS reasons?
There is a difference of having basic or decent complexity and have cero complexity so a 3 years old kid could play it, and reducing complexity or adds quality of live stuff doesn't mean kill the flow of the job and copy paste one of the current ones as they did bcs they didn't care about the feedback.
Don't lie yourself, they didn't destroy DRK bcs they can't balance his kit since has been balanced in the past ad current DRK is still in the same place of SB. -
08-06-2019, 04:19 PMNedkelTanks were not balanced in SB, there was always the MT and OT issue, and in dungeons the differences and unbalance between tanks was giganticQuote:
Originally Posted by shao32
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ps&class=Tanks
There were a ton of issues between tanks with Warrior and PLD having best single target dmg and best mitigation. At worst, DRK was doing 15% less single target damage than warrior.
The sustain between single and multi target was different between them too.
DPS jobs is a different story, because all what they have to do is to do damage and it is easier to balance than tank, which has to have some sort of sustain, have mitigation tools and damage skills and make them look and function different to each other but perform the same, this is a much harder job to do. So they decided to make tanks that way and not another.
Standard 1-2-3 combo, aoe combo, big deeps combo, range skill, dash, few deffensive CDs, Invulv skill, 1 party wide CD, thats it. -
08-06-2019, 05:26 PMShurrikhanThis is flagrantly wrong. By late Stormblood, Paladin was consistently last (outside of Max parses in Final Omega), not Dark Knight. The gap between Paladin and Dark Knight was also greater than that between Warrior and Dark Knight. And even Warrior and Paladin performed within 4.5% of each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
Dungeons had a large output spread, but that was it. Raids were pretty tightly balanced between all three tanks, with PLD still nearly as popular as Warrior at highest levels of play despite its lower output. -
08-07-2019, 01:55 AMshao32DRK has second in dps and best personal mitigation after 4.3, DRK only suffer lack of utility compared to the other 2, the other balance issues was only holmgang and the excesive amount of utility on PLD, they personal rotations and flows have nothing to do there since all of them do they job perfectly, the who pull drama end this expansion with the rework of tank stances so even less reasons to gutted DRK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
i dissagre DPS jobs are harder to balance bcs it's not only they personal damage, it's they utility and how affect the other 7 members of a raid, balance that it's way harder to prevent meta combs being overkill compared to the several party compositions you can have in the game, mitigation? there is no problem the only problem with mitigation was when they put PLD as physical king and DRK the magic tank with still currently is more or less while WAR was universal mitigation all around and that have been solved, the self sustain is pretty balanced right now and the utility more or less too and all of this have nothing to do with the dps rotation of the job so what they do it's just pure laziness and make DRK extremly easy probably just for being the poster boy as much. -
08-07-2019, 10:28 AMAbsimiliardNo. No it does not. DRK is third place in DPS if it has access to the correct party buffs. If lacking those buffs, it falls to dead last. GNB and PLD have a steady lead in the damage category.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
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08-07-2019, 12:16 PMshao32I was talking about SB, betwen 4.3 and the end of the expansion not now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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08-07-2019, 01:46 PMShurrikhanShe specifically labelled the period of time in discussion -- post-4.3 SB, not now. If you can't read the whole first 10 words...Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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08-07-2019, 02:08 PMKrausBrave
So, to walk into the chambers, I must say that DRK is currently a testament of terrible redesigns that currently make it the worst tank. If you think these changes are at any point, positive. You must not have put any sort of effort into it prior to the expansion.
HW, I played a bit of it, and enjoyed it. SB I was main the class so hard... so hard. I did EVERYTHING. On that class, savage, extremes, all of it as a DRK. And if I had one complaint about it, was Dark Mind was worthless and Living Dead was a walking disaster. And the fact that GNB is just Dark Arts... but better. Is painful. They could have just expanded on the idea of dark arts as a skill enhancer and it would have been fine.
Kept the skill speed on blood weapon (personally liked it myself), and gave it some epic lv80 single target uppercut blast wave thing like in the trailer that parted the clouds above. That could do either excessive amounts of damage or healing depending on if you DA it. And things would have been fine.
Dark arts should have been the focus. Give me options. More sustain, or Dps? Hell even have it so you can dark arts TBN that if it didn’t pop, you instead recovered that HP and gains 20 blood. BUT. To make it just a second rate warrior? THAT DOESN’T CRIT. Why play the class? It has little mitigation tools, LD is still LD. Dark Mind, I still refuse to put on my hot bar it’s so worthless. And it outshined by GNB and the king of tanks as of 5.05 Paladin. Truly, I wished they remove it and clump it up with dragoon or something as a medium armored dps... since making it a tank that actually doesn’t suck seems to allude square. -
08-07-2019, 02:08 PMLythI'm always fascinated by how people consistently re-frame events in a way that supports their desired self-image. It's not "I make mistakes on DRK because I'm struggling to keep track of things," it's "I lose track of things because I'm thinking much too quickly and DRK's slow pace lulls me into a sense of complacency." Uh-huh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I think you've just stumbled over one of the hallmarks of a resource-based job vs. a rotation-based job, though. Rotations can be executed on auto-pilot with repetition and practice. Resource management demands your attention, even while you're doing new mechanics. You don't notice it as much in simple fights, but it becomes painfully obvious in ones with any degree of complexity or new mechanics. -
08-07-2019, 02:14 PMDJMauQuestion: How would you know anything about how to 'fix' DRK if you haven't even leveled it beyond 71?Quote:
Originally Posted by KrausBrave
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08-07-2019, 02:24 PMKrausBrave
I have a guild with a lv80 DRK that I played on for a bit [wow... an aoe combo... i am missing out on SO much.] also reading gives a good indication of what’s to come. What am I really missing rotation wise? Unless Delirium suddenly changes bloodspiller and quietius [which it doesn’t] and the changes are only too flood and edge which are just potency buffs... again. What am I missing here? I played it for a second, made me wanna puke. And went to a better class that didn’t feel like crappy Warrior.