Finally someone who is posting as a doomsayer with knee jerk reactions.
5.0 healer catastrophizing is illogical - Change My Mind
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06-05-2019, 04:29 AMNolagamer
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06-05-2019, 04:35 AMCaesarCVI probably shouldn't respond since this seems like a trolling comment, but frankly how are these reactions 'knee jerk'? They're mostly well reasoned discussions based on what we know of the changes and the current state of the jobs. Yes, we haven't tried them out fully yet, but at the same time, we're pretty capable of understanding what's going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nolagamer
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06-05-2019, 04:43 AMCled-cat
As soon as I see accusations of “doom and gloom” or “knee jerk” applied to constructive commentary it’s pretty obvious the person saying it is either 1). Ignorant to why the changes are causing such a response in the community or 2). A troll. If all you can contribute to the discussion are low effort and trolling comments it’s probably not going to add much to the discussion or change any minds.
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06-05-2019, 09:13 AMDeceptusYep anyone who's been around long enough clearly knows that the mechanics aren't going to change, only potencies will. So as long as we judge what we see based on mechanics alone and not potencies, we can make a pretty reasonable educated guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaesarCV
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06-05-2019, 09:19 AMVivian_VexThere have been threads made about boycotting healers and talk about how healers are dead and that nobody is going to play them anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cled-cat
You're honestly going to try and say that isn't all doom and gloom or knee jerk? Because that is both VERY doom and gloom and knee jerk. -
06-05-2019, 09:35 AMCled-catNice try, but if you would have read what I said in the very first sentence: “(when) applied to constructive commentary” then maybe you would have stopped to avoid sounding so ignorant. Putting words into people’s mouths like that isn’t cute. I didn’t “try to say” anything that inferred supporting boycotts or that healers are “dead”, that’s just a thinly-veiled strawman you tried to use against me, and not a very good one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivian_Vex
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07-28-2019, 03:59 PMKokonoeAiyokoNo I think people actually like a class with RNG which was the intended design mechanic in the first place. Yes people actually played the job for that mechanic because not only was it unique, once again people liked that RNG nature of it. That's how it was advertised, that's how everyone knew this job from the beginning of Heavensward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare
You don't just take something that was clearly part of the job's identity and remove it and expect people to be happy with that. -
07-28-2019, 04:37 PMExiled_Tonberry
So I've been playing AST at 70 for a while now. All I can think of is people played AST during leveling and it felt underpowered then, and they never actually payed attention to how it feels in actual relevant 80 content.
My heals feel fine, the new card system makes AST feel as active as a DPS, and while things like Divination and collective unconscious could absolutely use some shorter CDs, it's not this irredeemable garbage healer people are trying to claim it is.
People need to look past leveling dungeons. Everything feels like trash in them. -
07-28-2019, 04:57 PMHyoMinParkThe evidence with AST is very clear in the current EX trials—it is ~900 rDPS behind WHM. Even SCH is pulling more rDPS than AST by about ~400. AST’s healing is also weaker than both SCH’s and WHM’s healing. Its problems go well beyond dungeons, though dungeons are the content the majority of the playerbase will experience it in. Even so, I leveled WHM immediately after AST and it was a completely different experience: I Holy spammed more than I healed on WHM. Meanwhile, AST was definitely doing a lot of GCD healing. Even what little I’ve done on SCH I haven’t been GCD healing as often as AST was (or oGCD healing).Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry
This isn’t even getting into optimizing AST, which is a pain what with Divination/Sleeve Draw windows requiring Lightspeed to execute effectively, which, in turn, removes versatility from a previously very versatile asset. -
07-28-2019, 04:58 PMSaefinnQuote:
Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare
- Selene should have been made more useful rather than removed altogether. In 2.0 people who were considered good Scholars used Selene more because the speed boosts were useful in party situations.Hell all the way around to SB I was still using Selene for a speed boost, I have a MNK in my group, they appreciated speed boosts. Their biggest gripe to the healer changes is that SCH and AST can no longer help them go fast. Just give Selene a little more utility beyond just speed boosts & AoE Esuna & a very niche Silence
- Removing spreadlo, I have no problem with this change.
- Dissipation is QoL, I don't deny that.
- SS got a HoT, I don't think SCH needed more buffs to their ability to heal
- SCH DPS I don't actually care about. What I care about is being bored in my downtime. By removing a DPS rotation they've made this boring. By making our healing OP over the years they've increased our downtime. So this is why SCH DPS changes are such a big issue. It hasn't prevented us from DPSing either, it's just made it more boring. Nerf our DPS by all means but at least give us something else to do instead.
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07-28-2019, 05:18 PMJollyy5
I believe I speak for all those healers who were against the changes before ShB when I say: "Told you so."
They effectively made WHM seem like an interesting choice due to neutering the other two healers.
AST is an unholy mess where its CPM is really high due to how the cards work, and numbers state that they have to do a lot of work for a whole lot of nothing while still managing to be boring.
SCH is just... there... With next to nothing to do during downtime and several unnecessary healing spells, to a point where some players have complained they aren't even sure which heals to use and why.
So yeah... The prophecy has come to pass, and it's incredibly difficult to motivate myself to finish levelling a healer. -
07-28-2019, 05:42 PMCrazyAce
The only reason I'm going to have lvl 80 healer is because they didn't completely destroy SMN so I'll be getting that to lvl 80 eventually. SCH is just along for the ride. I'm not playing it until they fix that class. It's super boring to play, almost as boring as AST. It's like they made the ShB healer changes to cater to babies that don't want to have to press more than 3-4 buttons during a fight. Oh wait, that's exactly what they did. That why all the noobs love the changes. They like it when the skill ceiling is the same as the skill floor.
AST is just sad. DNC literally has better buffs, now. The card effects uptime is awful as well as weak, Divination is abjectly terrible, and the only saving grace is Neutral Sect, which has a very short duration. Why anyone would bother playing AST right now when it's a lesser version of either SCH (better heals and mitigation) or WHM (better heals and HoTs) is beyond me. It was relatively strong in SB, now it's pretty much pointless to even play, unless you just want "flavor".
WHM is the only interesting healer class left, though that's only due to the other classes being dumbed down into oblivion. It got some nice quality of life changes, but still suffers from needless skill bloat. I mean, does anyone even USE Cure III? I can't even remember the last time I cast that in any notable content. -
07-28-2019, 05:50 PMSloprano
Missed this thread earlier, but any chance to champion for Selene.
* Selene was a great addition to an already varied set that had something for every situation.
* In Deep Dungeons Fey Caress aoe esuna was a lifesaver, Fey Dusk helped against Garms and Fey Wind make fights go a little bit faster when every second could count on deeper sets.
* Selene's silence was wonky to perform manually, only on Sic would make she silence before a mob even thought about casting. She even tried to silence non-spells which failed. Now that they made Interrupts a big thing Selene could have her moment.
That Selene and arcanist roots was removed to make room for more ways to fill up healthbars is not a design philosophy I subscribe to. There are times when all those healing spells go unused because nothing is happening and since we can plan healing around the scripted fights I always look for oppertunities to help in other ways. This became more of an issue as sch got less interesting things to do. In everything from Extreme fights to low-level dungeons in roulettes to solo questing, we used to have a several things to do. These days I spam Broil III.
At the end of SB I found myself going into 24-mans a lot, performing triage on several wiped Alliances while the boss was alive is among the more exciting moments on scholar during that expansion.
Also think Seraph could've been a permanent summon as a shielding fairy with own pet hotbar. Maybe with only powerful shields and Blind on enemies from all that sparkle. The 2 min would cooldown appear if you sent her away or summoned Eos or Selene. -
07-28-2019, 05:52 PMShalanI'll never understand why people think this is a winning argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry
The vast majority of this game's content is encountered during the leveling experience and in instances below max level. A shitty ride in levels 30-79 is not excused by an "okay" or "working" experience at level 80. How many hours of playing a subpar or boring class are most people willing to put themselves through to hit level 80 when they could have a much more enjoyable time on SCH/WHM for both the leveling experience and the endgame content?
If that leveling experience is bad, the actual class design and changes are bad unless the end is a stellar payout, which for AST it is not. -
07-28-2019, 06:04 PMSaefinnQuote:
Originally Posted by Shalan
Very much this. People level, levelling is not instant, they go through story content playing these jobs, they have to grind using them before they even get to 80. And once they are level 80 they will still grind through roulettes for which there is only 1 level 80 roulette. But they do the roulettes for gear. And once gear cap increases, it'll be the same again. They may also still do older content to help others out. There is a lot of content people do that's not at level 80. And if you're a new player trying out a job, "it gets good at 80" is not really an incentive to pursue it.
And to add, it's also less incentive for healers to do roulettes. Healer in need has been a common sight even after the novelty of GNB and DNC has worn off. -
07-28-2019, 06:22 PMBrarry
What's illogical is devs still trying to say "this is how healers should play" or "this is how healers should have fun". Okay short term sure as we try to adapt to the changes forced on us. Then when healers get bored for unimaginative boring game play we are just gonna post our feed back and move to another class or game. Getting sleepy at low level dungeons is how they want us to have fun?
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07-28-2019, 06:55 PMSaefinn
I'm curious. Did anybody change the OP's mind? I always wonder with anything that says "change my mind" if anybody actually does. I just don't fancy reading through 14 pages to see whether they did or not.
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07-28-2019, 07:11 PMShalanThey did not. The first seven or so pages shows the OP's hand a fair bit actually. Side-stepping arguments, misconstruing arguments, holier-than-thou attitude, only attacking weak points/ignoring any potentially strong counterarguments, (intentionally?) misunderstanding other's statements, attacking people on the basis or character or their post formatting rather than addressing their statements, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saefinn
They weren't really open to changing their mind, basically.
Also, this
lol, great attitude.Quote:
I'm happy for each and every SCH nerf that happened and I think after the total domination of SCH in SB they deserved it.
The OP left around page 5/6, and people stopped really quoting/talking about them after page 7 or so if you want to go back and read some. It's not as long as you'd think. -
07-28-2019, 07:24 PMSaefinn
It's funny how that happens when a thread starts with the premise "change my mind". ;) But yeah, that don't sound like a very good attitude, and honestly, I don't mind people disagreeing with me on healer changes. But I don't think there's much of a case of people complaining for the sake of complaining or a population afraid of change. To the nerf comment, as a SCH I've been asking for nerfs, I don't wanna be OP...but the nerfs are in totally the wrong place. It's not like we revelled in our OPness and were like "suck it other healers" lol So no, not deserved, except maybe to any vast minority that might have gloated? I never saw any.
Cheers for satiating my curiosity anyway. -
07-28-2019, 08:41 PMxDaemianx
[1/2]
While I do agree that you're making strong points I also think that you're leaving out what a potential AST could do before the rework.
When you say that "someone's not an AST because they throw Boles on tanks, you're one because of mobility and timing.", I bid to disagree. An AST had to work with what they are [were] given, properly using a Bole when a TB was about to happen could easily ease the work of the next Healing ability, or even use it to increase the potency of another card, or use it when an Aoe was about to hit and save someone's life when such person ignored/didn't see incoming damage. Yes, they're situational, but they do happen. Those who think that the cards that you had only applied to specific jobs, well, they did not use an AST to its fullest potential. I could perfectly hear a BLM thanking me from overseas for using a Arrow card on them; or a BRD (and sometimes MNK) praising the Lord for being the chosen one when a Spear was drawn. The only card that used to be the most useless (bar certain situations) was Spire and it was still pretty effing useful so that it could be burnt to spread the effect of another card.
Iirc, Malefic had its spelltime reduced because ASTs could not fit cards (a job they're supposed to do) in between casts, not because it was its job to cast more of it. LS is amazing, I'm not going to tell you otherwise because I can't find anything against that, tbh. Same goes for ED and ES. But these are not the truest identity of an AST. After all, the lore and the quests you're given when you start the quest revolve around the cards. These spells align with the concept of what an AST is, unquestionably, but the cards have strayed from what an AST is and have rendered it into a power-buffing (instead of defense/speed/crit/regen that it used to be) job. AST used to be way more flexible. -
07-28-2019, 08:42 PMxDaemianx
[2/2]
What I strongly disagree with is that "the rework [...] requires more thought". Before, as stated, we were able to use different cards for different situations. Now, it's all become an all-in offensive booster. That's it. We simply need to play a card onto a player that it is suitable for in terms of DPS. Before you could at least consider different players depending on the card you drew. Basically: (Now) "Oh, a Bole? A ranged DPS. That's it"; (before) "Oh, a Bole? Let's see, someone with weakness/low health/the target of an incoming high-damage ability could use it, or use it to amplify the potency of the next card". The only thought you might consider is the seal it comes with, but even that becomes a pain in the ass when so many things need to be done: Healing, buffing and DPSing IF possible, and I'm not even mentioning that when Sleeve Draw is used you need to juggle all of this with a timer in the equation. It's harrowing having to use the cards while paying attention to the battle, player's HP bars, using the cards on the right person, DPS (IF) and trying not to repeat seals or overwrite a recently used card. Of course, this does not always happen but it does make one wonder if AST is worth the effort (and I say this as a main healer), especially when ASTs fall behind in MP regen abilities and a couple free heals.
Being a Gambler (RNG) is actually part of the fun of an AST, but that is also another recurrent job in the FF series. But if you mean it to apply only to when you want to use Minor/Major at the beginning or use SD instead, it doesn't really count as it would entirely rely on whether SD is up or not, no other spell truly clicks with what a Gambler is in other FFs. To me it sounds like an opening choice. I tend to use SD at the beginning of the fight as it would mean using Divination more times if the seals are the appropriate ones. Then again, you don't know what you're going to get. But, then again, neither do you when you use SD.
Now, I don't mean SE should revert the cards to the way they were (although I wouldn't dislike it) but they have lost their own identity that they used to have and that went with the lore.
What I do hope is that they make it less of a nightmare than what it is now. -
07-28-2019, 10:43 PMJadkay
First, sorry, I didn't read whole answer you got.
Second, I will only talk for SCH and AST since I didn't level WHM 80 yet.
SCH : Really dissapointed at the changes. I won't repeat again and again why, think people already write enough about it. I main SCH since I started the game shortly after SB release. Tbh, I feel like more "slacking" than anything else for now and I don't stop using skill.
You tell selene was just used as opener ? Not agree. It all depend of the party, the raid/trial and some more. In some occasion I was running with Selene whole time because the SS buff was just insane at 1min cd (and because I was too lazy to swap all time haha).
The change made to the way of using fairy's skills ? Tbh, it change nothing for me, I always used manually every skill of the fairies so that system don't mind to me.
AST : Well, I leveled this job but tbh, unless they make some changes on it, don't think I gonna play it again. Some people may like the new card system but I don't. I mean, you spend your whole time drawing card for perfect Divination and still the reward is 6% every 3 min ? Come one. Even if you do complete things to do 2 queen/king > divination > 2 queen king to have 4 dps at 14% dmg, whole time of the buff, you do nothing else. And the 14% will be for max 10sec ? I may be mistaken, but if the dps isn't is in "burst" phase, not sure it's so worthly. Because, you don't dps meanwhile and even using play as ogcd whole time, that's so boring, but ofc, it's my own opinion and again I may be mistaken since I don't have much experience as 80 ast.
Tbh, like I read somewhere, I really hope we will going for a solo heal meta. For most things, 1 healer is far enough (with a brained party ofc).
To end, I will just tell I don't understand why I got +0% heal value with +500 mind and +400 det with the same healing skill (with same potency). I mean, I tried and as level 80 i440+, I do the same heal value as level 70 i400.
Again, some people will not agree with me, but that's my personnal opinion, from a casual player with low savage experience. -
07-28-2019, 11:31 PMExiled_Tonberry
SE really just needs to move away from this idea that "healers should heal", and proceed to build us up as if we were going to be healing every other GCD, when the reality is dmg is so low that we're basically just DPSING until something interesting happens.
If they stepped back and build healers up similar to DPS, with combos and whatnot, I think we'd be a lot better off in general.
I mean, they obviously are moving away from this idea that healers shouldn't worry about DPS, they gave WHM DPS potential beyond that of tanks. Why not make hitting this damage actually interesting? -
07-28-2019, 11:31 PMmsoltysplThat's basically how my friend treats this game now - logging at the weeklies' start just in case they fix something sensibly in context of his rather extensively boring experinece (he is SCH). And we all know the chances of that happening are near nonexistent (besides potency tweaks).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brarry
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07-29-2019, 12:49 AMJadkayI do the same almost : log in, do roulette to level jobs, look if something is moving. Trying to look for a static as SCH but tbh, don't even know if I feel to play that job more time. Healer became boring to play at the moment. I just hope incoming savage will change my mind, else I could simply drop FF XIV for an other game.Quote:
Originally Posted by msoltyspl
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07-29-2019, 12:17 PMSpiralMaskthe 5.01 patch notes did say that more extensive changes were intended for the savage patch (5.05, iirc?) and that they were only doing small potency adjustments for this one in prep for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by msoltyspl
i just hope they give healers back some downtime activities; AST card complexities, literally anything new for WHM since they've lacked one for 6+ years, and something for SCH--i don't care about damage, give us some freakin faerie gauge management so there's a reason to keep aetherflow rolling, or something jesus.
we're all even better at healing (minus AST's weird potency issue from the 5.0 changes) now, so we get lots of downtime, and now nobody has anything to do during it (where previously at least 2/3 did). -
07-29-2019, 12:30 PMKerrigenThis is a good post. They definitely need to re-evaluate the fun of the moment-to-moment gameplay when you play a healer in FF14 because right now it's painfully dull. I'm actually mostly okay with the kit changes and additions (except the AST added clunk which is unfathomable) but healing as a role is so boring right now that I'm praying for people to screw up during fights in order to get some action. I never used to tune out of fights as much as I do this expansion and now I even surprise myself letting my one DoT fall off because of the constant one-button spam. I'm sure healer players can handle a basic 1-2 combo, a proc here and there or a DPS to healing interaction (Aflatus Misery is basically just that and it's one of the better additions this expansion).Quote:
Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry
I sort of was willing to go back to healing as a main role but this is the most unengaging healing has ever been so I don't think it's happening. -
07-29-2019, 12:57 PMSpiralMask
if SE is dead-set on healers not dpsing, then give them something else to do when they dont need to be healing that isnt damage--AST's previous card management was a good example of that, since even with their boring DPS kit there was enough things dividing their time/attention that it didnt particularly matter.
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07-29-2019, 01:15 PMSeoulstar
I'm going to @ you on the part about the identity of the AST. The cards are in fact part of the class identity. Hence why there was a focus on them during the class quests. They were literally part of the class lore. Anyone who paid attention to the story regarding the class would know that. The new card system honestly sucks, it's oversimplified, it's unfun and it truly does not require more thought than the previous. Most of us didn't in fact fish for balance, we played the class the right way. Also given now that we took quite a hit to our actual healing..yeah, AST is in a terrible spot right now. Most are not fond of this change, if the cards were to be changed. At least do something with them that's actually interesting. Because being a balance bot with weak healing is..it's just sad to even think about.
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07-29-2019, 02:31 PMCled-catHonestly, whenever I see someone say “cHaNgE mY MiNd” it’s obvious that they’re just trying to inflame and exploit pretty hot topics at the time for easy trolling/attention. Anyone who’s sincerely open to changing their viewpoint (all 0 people since this is the internet) wouldn’t feel the need to say that, they’d just post a sincere question or argument and let the rest of us catch the drift.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saefinn
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07-29-2019, 04:52 PMSaefinnAbsolutely. My question was facetious in nature, but at the same time, I get curious is anybody actually ever says it with any kind of sincerity. My experience thus far too has been "nope".Quote:
Originally Posted by Cled-cat
People are insincere when they say "change my mind", change my mind. -
07-29-2019, 05:08 PMAnselmet
I know I am probably gonna get flamed out of existence but uh, sch is still the top healer. Now before you flay my skin off, let me explain. Chainstrategem is still a good raid utility skill. Catalize is amazing as f and can be spread. Recitation can make skills like idom and excog crit. The sheer force of off global cool down healing capabilities sch has is out of this world. Also have any of ya all ever emergency tactic with recitation an adlo on a tank. Freaking nuts! And in Innocent EX and Titania EX I always feel my kit has the ability to heal through any sticky situation.
Whm has dps and super strong heals. I guess that's something to be proud of? Sch just feels bad bc our dps kit was butchered but honestly, when I am not in a dungeon, sch is just super fun and I don't feel any awkwardness that a lot of people complain about. Also sacred soil beats any other healers bubble spell. I really do think sch is the best END game healer.
Won't catch me dead using it for ex roulette tho. -
07-29-2019, 05:54 PMBillythepancakeDoing the ex trials and the new raids for the first time this week. Scholar was boring as hell, even when progging the ex trials, with a full group of pugs on crystal mind you (and crystal is considered to be the data center that has all the kids that eat glue) i was spamming broil the entire fight. Out of my extensive healing kit, you know which heals got used the most? Indom, whispering dawn, succor when indom was down, excog, and the occasional lustrate. The rest of the heals I had to remind myself I had, or I just used for the sake of using them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselmet
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07-29-2019, 05:59 PMSlopranoThis is why I'm up in arms about 5.0 Scholar: It used to be about preventing damage while juggling dots and fairies, now it's about refilling healthbars and castig broil. Refilling healthbars is no problem, but is not I why picked and stayed with the job. Chain stratagem is probably a great raid skill, I will take your word for, but as that is such a small part of the game at large it's usefulness for me is near insignificant. I'd rather see it traded for Virus or something similar. That goes for a lot of new skills since Stormblood: Great in parties and tuned for raid where healing might be intensive. In fights like E4 or Orbonne where people fall right, left and center then it gets exciting, but gathers dust outside of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselmet
I believe SCH was, and can be again, fun to use in all types of content.
I'm glad you're having fun, just be aware I won't be holding back the cheering if current iteration of SCH is changed to resemble the SCH of 3.0. -
07-29-2019, 06:06 PMSaefinnThis is why people jokingly refer to Scholar as WHM with faeries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloprano
I'm sure SCH is probably gonna be top of the game out of all healers and in a good place in that respect. But for contrast MCH was in a good place in terms of balance for Stormblood, but the majority of MCH still hated it, and they solved that problem this time around, they now have balance and fun. Not to dismiss those who still like SCH, because I know there are those that do, but as I understand it currently that they're in the minority, judging by the polls collected measuring job satisfaction. -
07-29-2019, 06:42 PMShawnerzYou're absolutely right. It's super obnoxious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cled-cat
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07-29-2019, 09:53 PMIttyBitty
Well, this thread aged well.
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07-30-2019, 11:09 AMLukaRoseliaHow does filling 3 slots and using redraw if you don't get what you need then turning them into crowns require any kind of thought process whatsoever? Its passively brain dead.Quote:
People need to actually think about how the cards work now, the rework and which set of cards requires more thought.