Give the possible Eureka 5.X its own weapon, and separate Relic from it

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Originally Posted by Kalise

But has since come to refer to the general weapon that an expansion has that gets upgraded throughout the duration and ends up being the big flashy weapon at the end of an expansion (And thus, a long grind) that sometimes ends up being BiS once it reaches this end stage.

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Ok, this is your definition of the relic. So let’s examine what you’re saying after.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Yet, then they get really pissy whenever we have the gall to ask that we get our content BACK and that Eureka gets something new and unique for it to work on instead, something that could equal that of Raid weapons (Thus surpassing Tome and Primal weapons)

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Why does it have to be called something new and unique? Why not just call it a relic, since it follows the same definition you laid out for the term relic. It’s a weapon you get by upgrading through the duration of the expansion, ends up being a flashy weapon and at the end of the expansion it becomes BiS. And might I add, that I also consider the relic the weapon with the purple background.

What I’m against is saying “separate Relic from Eureka content” and not saying “give us another relic content along side Eureka”. This creates the impression that it’s going to be something worse than what we know as a relic (it won’t be ultimate level for sure). And the comment I replied to explicitly stated that they’re not advocating two relics. So that doesn’t make sense not to call them relics if they both follow the exact same definition.

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

OP isn't advocating 2 relics. Classic Relic + Eureka gets its own Weapon and Gear

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Originally Posted by Kalise

But no, act as if Relic being removed from being exclusively Eureka means replacing it with hot garbage and/or making it so that Eureka players can't work towards it at all.

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Well, I never said I’m against the relic being obtained from both ways. I’m totally fine with that. But, again, I’m against when people are asking for a separation of the relic from Eureka and giving Eureka another weapon and refuse to call it a relic. Then what prevents it from being another garbage weapon?

I know I’m picking on wording, but if they’re both relics, then just simply ask for a relic weapon for the old content style and not separate relic from Eureka if they’re both going to be relics in the end and follow the exact same definition.

Else we’d have more comments like the one I replied to saying they don’t want two relics.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, this is literally a case where Yoshida thought that reusing old content was a dead end and use that opportunity to finally create a grindy content for a grindy weapon, content he wanted since the beginning of ARR, and giving casual the tome weapon as an alternative to make sure they still have access to everything.

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"Reusing old content"

By which you mean what exactly?

You keep spouting this about 2.0/3.0 Relics are all about "Reusing old content"

But from what I recall, a lot of them were about using current content. With the only "Reusing of old content" being when people wanted to farm light quickly so they spammed old duties.

When 3.0 had you go around all the HW zones and farm fates for Crystals was that reusing old content?

Sure, part of the awakening had you run old dungeons, but it also included some HW dungeons too.

The rest of it was farming materials such as tomestones and stuff for Crystal Sands. Only old content if you chose to do old content.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

because no one complained two years ago when it was announced that the relic would be completely tied to Eureka, or to ask the other weapons to be obtainable by alternate ways.

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Almost as if two years ago, people didn't know that Eureka would be just a glorified FATE Train spam repeated 4 times.

That people didn't know it had awful balancing, that there would be so few ways to actually make any progress or that it would have terrible design decisions such as arbitrary EXP systems that serve no purpose other than to be annoying time-gates and at worse, punishment for actually progressing through the content.

Eureka takes the very worst parts of the Relic grinds, the FATE farming (Albeit at least Eureka removes the RNG from the FATE rewards), Light farming and time gated progression (In the form of how gaining Elemental EXP is utter garbage outside of Challenge Logs) and makes that its sole content.

Meanwhile, 2.0/3.0 Relics having a majority of their content just being focused on purchasing items with Tomestones, meant that you inherently just had a variety of things you could do to progress on the Relic. You could do dungeons, Raids, Trials, Roulettes, PotD or PvP.

It wasn't JUST "Kill/AFK in a party next to NM's" and doing awful Light farming (Which again, used to be doable from FATEs, dungeons, Raids, Trials, Roulettes and PvP. Instead of JUST farming garbage in Eureka)

No-one knew 2 years ago that Eureka would be such a big step backwards in terms of Relic progression due to boiling down the activities that contribute it down to a very small set of tasks compared to previous Relics that had multiple different stages and multiple ways to complete many stages due to how they were based around tome generation.

To reiterate:
Have one series of relic weapons for 5.X
Give us multiple ways of working towards that weapon including 5.X Eureka/Diadem so people can do whatever they enjoy most

Why is there so much opposition to this solution? It's not like anyone loses out on anything, except maybe a sense of exclusivity.

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Originally Posted by Astrus

To reiterate:
Have one series of relic weapons for 5.X
Give us multiple ways of working towards that weapon including 5.X Eureka/Diadem so people can do whatever they enjoy most

Why is there so much opposition to this solution? It's not like anyone loses out on anything, except maybe a sense of exclusivity.

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Because it'd be a change. People hate change because reasons.

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Originally Posted by Astrus

To reiterate:
Have one series of relic weapons for 5.X
Give us multiple ways of working towards that weapon including 5.X Eureka/Diadem so people can do whatever they enjoy most

Why is there so much opposition to this solution? It's not like anyone loses out on anything, except maybe a sense of exclusivity.

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No objections here. As long as I don't have to rerun old content to get the relic, then that's perfectly fine.

But would SE actually do this?

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Originally Posted by Astrus

To reiterate:
Have one series of relic weapons for 5.X
Give us multiple ways of working towards that weapon including 5.X Eureka/Diadem so people can do whatever they enjoy most

Why is there so much opposition to this solution? It's not like anyone loses out on anything, except maybe a sense of exclusivity.

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Apparently, it's because Eureka is only worthwhile content when its reward is the only way to progress towards the Relic.

With every other potential reward from completing Eureka being utter garbage and thus not worth "Enjoying" the content for.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

But from what I recall, a lot of them were about using current content.

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Sure, Tam-Tara normal, Stone Vigil, Brayflox normal, Temple of Qarn, Copperbell Mines, Dzemael Darkhold, Toto-Rak, Cutter's Cry, Sastasha, Aurum Vale, Haukke Manor, Halatali...they were definitely "current content" when Trials Of the Braves were released in 2.28. Like were most of the dungeons used for the Zodiac in 2.45.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

When 3.0 had you go around all the HW zones and farm fates for Crystals was that reusing old content?

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Well, 3.0 didn't have you go anywhere...by the time of 3.15, technically, that was old...but not older than SnowCloak, Sastasha HM, Qarn HM, Keeper of the Lake, Wanderer's Palace HM, Amdapor Keep HM, ARR beast tribes. Or the next step, reusing the 3-tier of Crystal Tower. Or even the final step, taking you all the way back to Ifrit HM...the same Ifrit HM you had to clear for the very first step of the previous Relic.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Sure, part of the awakening had you run old dungeons, but it also included some HW dungeons too.

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Over 10 dungeons, 6 were pre-HW, and the other 4 are leveling dungeons, so yes, they were old in 3.15.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Almost as if two years ago, people didn't know that Eureka would be just a glorified FATE Train spam repeated 4 times.

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Yeah, that's my point. You don't care about options at all, you just want a bypass for a content you don't like.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Meanwhile, 2.0/3.0 Relics having a majority of their content just being focused on purchasing items with Tomestones, meant that you inherently just had a variety of things you could do to progress on the Relic. You could do dungeons, Raids, Trials, Roulettes, PotD or PvP.

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Except that it's already what you did for everything else in the game since 2.0, so the relic didn't have anything new. Basically, wether you do the relic or not, you'll simply end in the same content throughout your play sessions. That's not variety.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Apparently, it's because Eureka is only worthwhile content when its reward is the only way to progress towards the Relic.

With every other potential reward from completing Eureka being utter garbage and thus not worth "Enjoying" the content for.

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That's like saying the rest of the content that were used for 2.0 and 3.0 relic are only worthwhile content when they're tied to the relic, despite that those content already have their own rewards tied to them.

No one that is enjoying Eureka is saying that it's not worth it without the relic. Because the same argument can be said on all content that were used for the previous relics. What we're saying is, don't ask for the relic to be removed from Eureka because you don't like it and put it back in content we don't like. You want another relic? then ask for that instead. You want the same relic obtained by an alternative method? ask for that instead. It's up to SE in that case if they want to bother doing it or not. They already decided on making a new one for 5.x.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

You want the same relic obtained by an alternative method? ask for that instead.

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I literally have.

Multiple times.

In this exact thread.

Then Eureka fanbois come along and start going on about "Oh reused content this" and "I don't like that content that" and "But muh Eureka sucks without Relic because everything not Relic is trash"

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Then Eureka fanbois come along and start going on about "Oh reused content this" and "I don't like that content that" and "But muh Eureka sucks without Relic because everything not Relic is trash"

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That sounds like a confused person. Because if it's that same relic from both ways. Then Eureka would already have the relic. So it doesn't make sense when they say Eureka without relic. They were probably confused as me when I read some saying they don't want two relics but want a relic and a Eurekan one.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Meanwhile, 2.0/3.0 Relics having a majority of their content just being focused on purchasing items with Tomestones, meant that you inherently just had a variety of things you could do to progress on the Relic. You could do dungeons, Raids, Trials, Roulettes, PotD or PvP.

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This, I think, is my biggest disappointment with this expansion's relic weapon. In Heavensward, I had an incentive to run my level 60 roulette and my level 50 roulette because there was value in the old tomestones to progressing my weapon. This time, a new tomestone comes out and I immediately cap the old one without spending any of them till they're retired and the latest one becomes the old one. It's given me no incentive to running roulettes, and as such, I don't do it anymore. It's actively taken players out of content rather than adding in something more for players to do, and that is a parasitic design that in the long run, is bad for the health of the game.

To me, the best compromise between people who liked Eureka for its progression and everyone else is to make whatever system they use in 5.0 a hybrid of the two. Maybe make it so that there are things you can do in the exploratory zones to advance your weapon, but if you don't want to do it, there's another system. I think the best success of the 3.0 relic was there was always more than one method of completing every step. This let people progress their weapon in a manner that was most enjoyable to them rather than be forced down one path, which is what Eureka has done.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

That sounds like a confused person. Because if it's that same relic from both ways. Then Eureka would already have the relic. So it doesn't make sense when they say Eureka without relic. They were probably confused as me when I read some saying they don't want two relics but want a relic and a Eurekan one.

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Well, it makes sense in terms of when suggesting the Relic be attainable through non-Eureka content (In addition to Eureka), then Eureka players complained (Or would complain) that their end-goal and reason to actually go through the farm of Eureka would be redundant because it would just offer the same reward as is available elsewhere.

As such, one of the suggestions tied to making the Relic not solely available through Eureka would be to put something else in place for Eureka players to farm as their end goal, with the Relic still being farmable in Eureka, but not the only reward.

It could be something like a directly purchasable Tome/Trial equivalent weapon using Eureka specific resources, or a much easier grind for upgrading a weapon through Eureka into such a comparable weapon. Of course, with the extra grind being possible for the Relic too.

Somewhat simulating the gearing process of non-Eureka systems, where a Eureka player will be able to grind to purchase/upgrade their equipment much like how someone who's using Tomes can purchase new items when a new tier is released to upgrade.

With the "Relic" being a separate item that has additional power (Scaling to higher ilevel than most other alternatives, such as Tome, Trial and normal Raid weapons) but requires significantly more grind, be it in Eureka or not.

Of course, the easiest way to do this sort of enabling a "Relic" weapon that could be worked towards by multiple means, would be to have Eureka's end goal being something completely different to a weapon. So that Eurekans will go through their grind for something that isn't a weapon, with then also the option to grind towards the "Relic" weapon alongside this. As far as what that alternative could be... I don't know. I'm not entirely sure what kind of a reward would motivate a Eurekan given that I'm not one of them (Also, add into the mix the fact that I'm very confused about having gear as a motivating factor in content that sync's you to max level nublet ilevel anyway >.>). My first thought is something like a mount, but again, how much of a motivating factor would that be *Shrugs*

Again, it's one of those things that's tricky to figure out, especially from the perspective of someone who doesn't like Eureka as content and only does it because of the Relic. In addition to not being selfish asses so actually trying to consider how to create these alternative routes to a desired item without just ripping it out of the hands of other players whom are happy with Eureka like how many pro-Eureka players are altogether far too happy to screw over people who don't like Eureka so long as they get to keep their Relic grind in the content they enjoy.

But yeah, instead of having a discussion about compromises between what rewards Eureka could give that makes the content meaningful and enjoyable even if the Relic weapon was opened up in terms of ways to progress it to include non-Eureka sources, pro-Eureka players seem to rather just flame how 2.0/3.0 Relics worked and denounce the very concept of having multiple avenues of working towards the same Relic (Which is ironic, given that literally, due to the majorly Tome based progression for 2.0/3.0 Relics, has been a thing historically. Opening up the avenues of progression to also encompass Eureka is not only not a particularly new concept, but a decision that is laughably easy to implement. Wherein you can simply make the items required to progress the Relic be purchasable via Eurekan currencies, in addition to those attained through alternative non-Eurekan means)

Don't encourage them to make another Eureka.....

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Don't encourage them to make another Eureka.....

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As someone who hated Eureka I'd have to ask "why not?"
It certainly seems to have its audience, just like PvP, Savage Raids and other content that doesn't appeal to everyone. So long as they don't make it "mandatory" there's nothing wrong with having it available for those who enjoy it. There's plenty of content in the game that just doesn't appeal to me so I don't do it but I don't begrudge the respective fanbase of said content that they got something they enjoy.

If this is just another case of "but it takes away resources from my content!" I'd have to ask what makes that content more important aside from your own enjoyment. The content I enjoy might easily be said to take resources away from someone else's favorite content so what's the point in pointing fingers?
As a community we'd suffer if they only developed content for the largest fanbase.

If they just add more different things to do I will be fine with a new Eureka, more ways then fates and mindlessly killing mobs.
Things like:
Daily hunts.
Daily quests.
Weekly hunts.
Weekly quests.
Also 1 or 2 open dungeon you can do solo or in group.
And perhaps other things that would provide exp and what you need to complete the relic. The current design with no improvement is a big no for me.

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Originally Posted by Soraki-Muppe

If they just add more different things to do I will be fine with a new Eureka, more ways then fates and mindlessly killing mobs.
Things like:
Daily hunts.
Daily quests.
Weekly hunts.
Weekly quests.
Also 1 or 2 open dungeon you can do solo or in group.
And perhaps other things that would provide exp and what you need to complete the relic. The current design with no improvement is a big no for me.

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I would rather they not add hunts to anything... EVER!! I hate hunts almost as much as I hate Eureka.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

But yeah, instead of having a discussion about compromises between what rewards Eureka could give that makes the content meaningful and enjoyable even if the Relic weapon was opened up in terms of ways to progress it to include non-Eureka sources, pro-Eureka players seem to rather just flame how 2.0/3.0 Relics worked and denounce the very concept of having multiple avenues of working towards the same Relic (Which is ironic, given that literally, due to the majorly Tome based progression for 2.0/3.0 Relics, has been a thing historically. Opening up the avenues of progression to also encompass Eureka is not only not a particularly new concept, but a decision that is laughably easy to implement. Wherein you can simply make the items required to progress the Relic be purchasable via Eurekan currencies, in addition to those attained through alternative non-Eurekan means)

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I'm one of the people who replied to this thread in favor of the 'one relic, multiple ways to progress' idea. I think rather than Eurekan currencies, it'd be better to have upgrade items be dropped from different NMs (or rare rewards for things like treasure hunts and daily quests if they implemented them as people have suggested). Make them purchasable with tomes (not cheaply, of course, requiring the usual grind) and you'd provide the multiple avenues. It might take some tweaking and balancing in the start, but this could be a very sustainable way to make the relic quest going forward, while building on and improving the Eureka-like experience as they go. And if they wanted to continue with light farming, they could make it so you could either farm content with the relic equipped (as in previous relic quests) or kettle farm in Eureka (as in the current tier).

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I would rather they not add hunts to anything... EVER!! I hate hunts almost as much as I hate Eureka.

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Hunts are great though.

Except for S and A rank Elite hunts which are total BS and a cesspool of ninja pullers and "I hope I get an invite to a party because otherwise I won't get enough contribution in the 0.1 femtosecond it takes for 300 people to nuke the target from orbit"