Gunbreaker starting level

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Originally Posted by SigmaOZ

Gunbreaker and any other new jobs in Shadowbringers must start at level 60, anything lower would make it a really tedious grind for the ones, included myself, that have all jobs at max levels!...


That gives new tanks 10 levels to learn the job and 10 more levels to gain experience before level 80!...

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It wouldnt take that long to level.You're over exaggerating massivly.
If anything you can level too fast these days.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

It wouldnt take that long to level.You're over exaggerating massivly.
If anything you can level too fast these days.

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Don't forget all that FATE grinding you'll be doing waiting for the duty finder to work during early access.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Don't forget all that FATE grinding you'll be doing waiting for the duty finder to work during early access.

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Queues wont be an issue.you'll have plenty new and returning players trying to make their way to lvl 70 for the new expansion.
After all the majority of players of the games population are lvl 50 or lower.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Queues wont be an issue.you'll have plenty new and returning players trying to make their way to lvl 70 for the new expansion.
After all the majority of players of the games population are lvl 50 or lower.

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I ment the duty finder actually having enough support to run for all the people playing at launch. Lest we forget what happened at the start of Stormblood!

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Originally Posted by SigmaOZ

Gunbreaker and any other new jobs in Shadowbringers must start at level 60, anything lower would make it a really tedious grind for the ones, included myself, that have all jobs at max levels!...


That gives new tanks 10 levels to learn the job and 10 more levels to gain experience before level 80!...

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And forces level +70 dungeons to be a laughable mess because anything remotely challenging like tank swapping would not be fitting for a learning experience. No, i want proper dungeons once and for all. One the main issues of dungeons is the laughable difficulty curve they have where player's honestly, don't learn much about their classes no matter how many dungeons they do, let alone people jumping roles and going into dungeons with a bit more bite. Honestly is getting tiring that there are ARR dungeons which are much better and harder in general and truly helped people to hone/learn their skills and roles than in all of the expansion, where the difficulty drop became abysmal in the worst cases or basically got stuck at the level 50. That needs to change. As player goes up in level, so must their OWN gaming skills so content can also diversify as players are able to face newer mechanics, fight styles, micro and macro management, more multitasking, etc, etc, etc.

I know they are level 70 LEVELING dungeons, but they are also level SEVENTY dungeons. The learning shouldn't be to use tank stance and sprinkle some mitigations. Dungeons by now should actively be punishing greedy DPS healers, non-mitigated tank busters and non comboing/upkeep DPSs. Like, skip potions have already done enough damage to higher level roulettes. A tank that isn't able to properly mitigate damage just doesn't DESERVE to progress through the game, there needs to be a cutting line for even the main scenario dungeons at some point, seriously.

just start from lvl 70 and learn as you go. the only reason new classes starts behind everyone else is to fluff content so it will last

didn't they say it starts at 50 and the npc is in gridania and only requirement is finishing ARR main story during the announcement? or was i just hearing things?

I've played with enough horrifically bad paladins and warriors to know starting at 1 doesn't necessarily train you to be a good tank
and i remember dark knight well enough to know that the "ooh shiny!" people were not a big deal at all

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Originally Posted by Nihility

didn't they say it starts at 50 and the npc is in gridania and only requirement is finishing ARR main story during the announcement? or was i just hearing things?

I've played with enough horrifically bad paladins and warriors to know starting at 1 doesn't necessarily train you to be a good tank
and i remember dark knight well enough to know that the "ooh shiny!" people were not a big deal at all

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They said 60. That is why this thread exists after all.

My tanking experiences started well before ARR. Though in 1.0 it didn't seem to matter all that much. Oo Still I learned from the 30 level dungeons. Longstop was the dungeon that taught me to dodge/stun things far more often, that Rampart wasn't going to save my butt every time I stood in stupid. I learned then that gear was important. Since then I do everything possible to be a decent enough tank to make it through MSQ level content. I don't tank Trials or Raids, I can't even conceive how to co-ordinate tanking with other tanks. Oo (I suppose Shirk has something to do with it, but I'm not sure how that all works actually.) So I stay in 4 man stuff, and keep my sanity. I DPS otherwise the harder stuff.

Though I have had a few random dungeons where the tank was not as good or outright terrible. (Heck I had one using LB every chance he got! And that was a level 20 dungeon.)

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Originally Posted by Nyvara

This Backfires when the tank is running with a healer friend and THEY laugh as the DPS goes boom then gets a vtk. :P

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This is true, but would be worth. :P

Grinding levels in this game is bad. You only get a sense of mechanics and rotation past a certain level (and sometimes it's max level). You won't be a better tank if you did level 1 to 70 in PoTD / HoH (which is what everyone would do if they wanted to main Gunbreaker in Shb) than if you read your tool kit properly.
Don't make tanks special snowflakes : a bad healer is equally a pain, a bad DPS is equally a pain.

And if you have been maining tank jobs for a long time, you wouldn't want any new tank job to begin at level 1 just because a couple of idiots will fool around in dungeons with no idea of how to play a tank. :)

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Is it just me or does this seem like a really bad idea?
The thought of giving a player who has never ever tanked a free lvl 60 tank is a really grim.
Its going to be hell for new players who get stuck with them while trying to progress in duty finder and we'll likely see a lot of ping pong agro between dps on jobs they already know how to play and the scrub Gunbreaker hitting random buttons.

It's going to be like what happenee with Dark but 100 times worse.

They should have Gunbreaker starting level at level 30.People need to learn how to tank.Dont throw them in the deep end.

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If they would do that, they should do that with everything. Tanks that can't play tanks are as bad as healers that can't heal and dps that can't play dps.

I will say the same thing I said with stormblood and with HW, the new jobs should start at whatever the level cap is right now. Red mage and samurai should have started at 60, drk et al should have been level 50. Players should be able to hop right in to the brand new jobs and level them through the new main story. Otherwise they have no choice but to redo old content as a means of getting to new content. In my opinion that is bad design.

Now I know what the common argument is “but then they won’t know how to play it!” Well I don’t buy that argument. That is easily fixed by making the starter quest more informative and introducing you to the job mechanics in a certain way. “Defeat this enemy by using this combo I’m going to now add to your hotbar. Good job! Now here are some defensive cooldowns, use these buttons to protect yourself from enemies!” A simple tutorial goes a long way. Not to mention the fact that there always good and bad players, the ones that want to get good will do so.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

I will say the same thing I said with stormblood and with HW, the new jobs should start at whatever the level cap is right now. Red mage and samurai should have started at 60, drk et al should have been level 50. Players should be able to hop right in to the brand new jobs and level them through the new main story. Otherwise they have no choice but to redo old content as a means of getting to new content. In my opinion that is bad design.

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But then we'd only get 10 levels worth of job quest content for them.
Less content = bad design.
What's wrong with playing 'old content'? If you ever want to level a second job you'll have to do that anyway, and you have to do it anyway via roulettes.
Or you can always buy a jump potion...

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

But then we'd only get 10 levels worth of job quest content for them.
Less content = bad design.
What's wrong with playing 'old content'? If you ever want to level a second job you'll have to do that anyway, and you have to do it anyway via roulettes...

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Who said there would be less job quests? You can still have the same amount of job quests and slightly tweak what level they happen at so that point is invalid. You can’t buy jump potions for new jobs, so that also doesn’t count.

Now as far as the old content, we’re talking about a brand new expansion being released. Obviously everyone will want to jump right in to brand new content right away and they should be able to do that with the new jobs right at the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Who said there would be less job quests? You can still have the same amount of job quests and slightly tweak what level they happen at so that point is invalid. You can’t buy jump potions for new jobs, so that also doesn’t count.

Now as far as the old content, we’re talking about a brand new expansion being released. Obviously everyone will want to jump right in to brand new content right away and they should be able to do that with the new jobs right at the beginning.

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As someone who switched to SAM when SB came out, I didn't mind leveling it before I got to do the MSQ of SB. I consider learning the job and leveling it to be content. Not just the story of a new Expansion. Granted that is the "meat" of new content. I also got SAM to 60 well before the Rahbahn problem was solved and even leveled RDM a little. I'm switching Gunbreaker in ShB so I'm looking forward to leveling it and learning it. That means I get to take it through the new Expansion with "some" idea as to what order to do the moves in and such. I would even be fine if Gunbreaker started at lvl 50. 30 might be a stretch. I'm not sure how I would feel if the job started at 70. Kinda like I was being thrown into the deep end of the pool not knowing how to swim... Tho I guess if I wasn't playing tank now to get use to it it would be the same and since I am I could start Gunbreaker at any level I suppose... But I like leveling jobs and doing dungeons, excepts BLU's 1k needle spam to 50, so I would probably be happy not matter what level Gunbreaker started at even if it was lvl 1 lol.

It wouldn't be any different if they started at 50 like SAM and RDM or even 30 like DRK/AST/MCH. You'd still have people who didn't know what they were doing queuing for dungeon content.

Seriously, the level they start doesn't matter. You'll always have people that don't know what they are doing and/or don't bother to try and learn the job before doing group content.

Frankly, if they start Gunbreaker less than 60, it's going to piss a lot of real tanks off.

Although I was thinking about this a bit more and had an idea to compromise. Have breaker start at 60 and then the moment you unlock it, you go through the job quests, but each job quest gives you enough exp to unlock the next one. Allowing you to go from 60-70 in a single quest chain with no grinding required while still allowing you to learn to play the job and unlock new abilities.

Have the job quest act as a tutorial AND take you from 60 to 70 only doing new content and by the time you’re done you can jump right in to the expansion.

Tanking isn't that hard, outside of Exteme trials and Savage Raids at least.

And people generally will give advice if asked.

Realistically people who pick up Gunbreaker and the new healer will get probably forced into lower dungeons if they do the roulettes anyways. The advantage of starting tanks, btw, at lower dungeons is that they have less in their kit so the focus is actually doing the crux of tanking...which is tanking. Making sure you manage aggro, manage cooldowns, and positioning the boss. Higher you go, more complex it will get.

In any case, people just better brace themselves cause youre giong to have a lot of new gunbreaker tanks running around and probably being meh at tanking right. But Ill do my part for all you worried folks and stick with DRK for a time so youll have some chance of having a good tank!!!!1! (jk)

It occurred to me that an unusual advantage of these higher-leveled tank and (likely) healer jobs is going to be picking up roles for alt characters.

I'd like my alts to have healer and tank jobs available to them, without necessarily having to level all the way from Lv1 (as I have already done with plenty of other tank/healer jobs already).

If I can work my way back to Lv60 with a DPS job and instantly collect a tank and healer, that's going to save some time.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Realistically people who pick up Gunbreaker and the new healer will get probably forced into lower dungeons if they do the roulettes anyways. The advantage of starting tanks, btw, at lower dungeons is that they have less in their kit so the focus is actually doing the crux of tanking...which is tanking. Making sure you manage aggro, manage cooldowns, and positioning the boss. Higher you go, more complex it will get.

In any case, people just better brace themselves cause youre giong to have a lot of new gunbreaker tanks running around and probably being meh at tanking right. But Ill do my part for all you worried folks and stick with DRK for a time so youll have some chance of having a good tank!!!!1! (jk)

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Don't forget those of us who already main Tanks and will be switching to GNB. Won't take us long to adapt to the new kit.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It occurred to me that an unusual advantage of these higher-leveled tank and (likely) healer jobs is going to be picking up roles for alt characters.

I'd like my alts to have healer and tank jobs available to them, without necessarily having to level all the way from Lv1 (as I have already done with plenty of other tank/healer jobs already).

If I can work my way back to Lv60 with a DPS job and instantly collect a tank and healer, that's going to save some time.

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But it's much easier to level with a tank or healer than it is with a DPS. You should start your alts as a tank/healer.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

But it's much easier to level with a tank or healer than it is with a DPS. You should start your alts as a tank/healer.

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Well, that too. But it still means I can pick up the other one of those options instead of needing to level both from scratch.

Also depends on what I want for the character aesthetically. If I primarily want that character to be a DPS class then I'm going to go through the story as that class.

Kinda irrelevant at the moment since I've only got one low-level alt who won't be making progress until at least after I've played Shadowbringers, but I'll be planning on it when he gets there. Will certainly be picking up the hypothetical healer-class for my currently-Lv60 tank alt.

DPS wait times aren't that terrible, anyway.

All of these new jobs should be starting at level 1 to be perfectly honest. Endgame content lock is long enough to give most plenty of time to level a job from level 1.

It’s not like these jobs build from the other jobs so they should be introducing their mechanics like they did with original base jobs from level 1. It might also force them to design these jobs a bit better for content below their current start levels.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Don't forget those of us who already main Tanks and will be switching to GNB. Won't take us long to adapt to the new kit.

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Yep. I mean all the tanks have individual things to master but once you've learned one picking up another is a lot faster, I got to a competent place with DRK fairly quickly despite boosting it to 60 because I'd played paladin for so long and instantly understood the basics and was able to get the DRK specific mechanics fairly quickly.

Ah, I remembered why I'm thinking it's better to go through the story as a DPS class! You can channel so much EXP into it from quests instead of having to do it all through roulettes.

It seems less efficient to be putting story EXP into tank/healer classes when they get regular "adventurer in need" bonuses and shorter queue times for everything else. I'm sure it outweighs the waiting for MSQ dungeons overall.

(EDIT: And with the Trust system coming in, that will negate the queue times for MSQ progress, making it even better to use a DPS class for story progress.)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Ah, I remembered why I'm thinking it's better to go through the story as a DPS class! You can channel so much EXP into it from quests instead of having to do it all through roulettes.

It seems less efficient to be putting story EXP into tank/healer classes when they get regular "adventurer in need" bonuses and shorter queue times for everything else. I'm sure it outweighs the waiting for MSQ dungeons overall.

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Yeah, that's why I'm going to get GNB to 70 first. See if I like it enough. If it's good enough that I don't feel the need to play DPS, then I'll rush it to 80 through story. But if it's 'meh', then I will likely use the MSQ for NIN.

I am fine with the new classes starting at level 60, I reckon some players want to do Shadowbringers content asap as one of the new classes, instead of being forced to start at low level, we only need to level 10 levels to reach Stormblood max level.

Still, I can see new tanks and healers causing issues... maybe lock the class behind a requirement? Instead of only having a level 60 class , the player is required to have a level 60 tank or healer... but this too would be a obstacle from dps only players who want to try the new classes.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

I am fine with the new classes starting at level 60, I reckon some players want to do Shadowbringers content asap as one of the new classes, instead of being forced to start at low level, we only need to level 10 levels to reach Stormblood max level.

Still, I can see new tanks and healers causing issues... maybe lock the class behind a requirement? Instead of only having a level 60 class , the player is required to have a level 60 tank or healer... but this too would be a obstacle from dps only players who want to try the new classes.

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That was brought up in a few other threads, but it's kind of a non-starter. It doesn't matter what level you let people start at, someone who doesn't bother to learn their job is going to be bad at it no matter what. You could force people to start GNB at 30, but all that would do is piss us actual tanks off quite royally. It wouldn't improve non-tanker's ability to do the job well. People either take the time to learn their job or they don't. Forcing a "tutorial" on them has never worked. This is evidenced by the fact that we see level 70 PLDs, WARs and DRKs that don't have a clue of what their doing, even though they had to start at 1 / 30. (or just bought a skip potion/PotD leveled)

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Yep. I mean all the tanks have individual things to master but once you've learned one picking up another is a lot faster, I got to a competent place with DRK fairly quickly despite boosting it to 60 because I'd played paladin for so long and instantly understood the basics and was able to get the DRK specific mechanics fairly quickly.

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Yuuuup. Almost all my skills for each class are in the same relative spots on all my pre-sets for all three current tanks. So playing a new tank at 60, is identical to playing it at 70 and eventually 80. Just second nature to all of us tanks I think lol.

Starting expansion classes at the level floor of the previous expansion and requiring that level to unlock is one of the best things 14 has done in the last few years.

Tbh Im in the camp that thinks all new jobs should start at level 1. Yes it takes longer, but if you really want that job you will put time into it, and learn it.

The only alternative Id be okay with is a level boost for people who have at least one level 70 tank already. It should be no more than 30-50.

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And forces level +70 dungeons to be a laughable mess because anything remotely challenging like tank swapping would not be fitting for a learning experience

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You mean things they cant put in dungeons because you're forced into 1 tank 1 healer and thus dont have a tank to swap to? Or are we adding in new "This is a shoehorned mechanic because you cant get overly complex tank or healer mechanics when you only have 1 of each" duty actions in this fever dream dungeon also?

We dont have 6man parties where its assumed you have some kind of hybrid tank/damage dealer so you can do fun stuff like that. As fun as it would be.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

That was brought up in a few other threads, but it's kind of a non-starter. It doesn't matter what level you let people start at, someone who doesn't bother to learn their job is going to be bad at it no matter what. You could force people to start GNB at 30, but all that would do is piss us actual tanks off quite royally. It wouldn't improve non-tanker's ability to do the job well. People either take the time to learn their job or they don't. Forcing a "tutorial" on them has never worked. This is evidenced by the fact that we see level 70 PLDs, WARs and DRKs that don't have a clue of what their doing, even though they had to start at 1 / 30. (or just bought a skip potion/PotD leveled)

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I honestly wouldn't care. It would probably add more to the game for me if all new jobs started at 1. I seriously re-capped everything and leveled SAM and RDM in no time at all when Stormblood came out. Tanks and healers went way faster than DPS in this regard because of instant queue on duties. I was also one of those people that didn't get blocked by Raubahn and Pipen Ultimate. The only slow classes to level for me are my DoH and DoL jobs because I been excessively lazy and just feeding them with GC turn ins when I actually remember to do so. But then I've been known for excessively high efficiency when I actually put my mind into something.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Tbh Im in the camp that thinks all new jobs should start at level 1. Yes it takes longer, but if you really want that job you will put time into it, and learn it.

The only alternative Id be okay with is a level boost for people who have at least one level 70 tank already. It should be no more than 30-50.

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No offense, but that doesn't make any sense at all. You don't need to spend hours and hours between 1-30 to learn the job. Pardon my French, but you don't learn shit during those levels.

Again, it's all about actually reading what your skills do and comprehending. You don't need to waste hours and hours with an incomplete skillset. In fact, that accomplishes the exact opposite. You get used to one way of doing things with an incomplete skill set, and then when you get the full skill set, you have to completely relearn your rotations and combos.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Tbh Im in the camp that thinks all new jobs should start at level 1. Yes it takes longer, but if you really want that job you will put time into it, and learn it.

The only alternative Id be okay with is a level boost for people who have at least one level 70 tank already. It should be no more than 30-50.

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You don't learn anything from starting with an incomplete skillset. You don't even have your basic tools at level one. So to be frank with you? No. Your idea is horrid.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Tbh Im in the camp that thinks all new jobs should start at level 1. Yes it takes longer, but if you really want that job you will put time into it, and learn it.

The only alternative Id be okay with is a level boost for people who have at least one level 70 tank already. It should be no more than 30-50.

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I've seen full blown tanks, dps and heals who own a UWU weapon, and still not know jackwad's about their jobs. So no, being 1 or 70 and 80 doesn't mean "you learn your job" or will. If you don't put in the time and energy to learn your jobs, rotation, regardless of level, then you're more of a burden to the player base than worth their salt.

The new jobs are the main reason a lot of new players come to the expanson.
Lots of sprouts from Stormblood played Samurai and Red Mage because they were new and hyped.
Better off having more crappy healers and tanks that can be taught rather than only a few and long queue times.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

No offense, but that doesn't make any sense at all. You don't need to spend hours and hours between 1-30 to learn the job. Pardon my French, but you don't learn shit during those levels.

Again, it's all about actually reading what your skills do and comprehending. You don't need to waste hours and hours with an incomplete skillset. In fact, that accomplishes the exact opposite. You get used to one way of doing things with an incomplete skill set, and then when you get the full skill set, you have to completely relearn your rotations and combos.

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Actually you do learn. When I started healing, I learned a lot from player feedback in the beginning levels.

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

I've seen full blown tanks, dps and heals who own a UWU weapon, and still not know jackwad's about their jobs. So no, being 1 or 70 and 80 doesn't mean "you learn your job" or will. If you don't put in the time and energy to learn your jobs, rotation, regardless of level, then you're more of a burden to the player base than worth their salt.

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Not to argue the point, but if they have their UWU weapon and are bad at their job, either

A) It's an alt job and they've cleared UWU multiple times; in this case the UWU weapon is not an indicator of their skill on that job
B) They're trolling because once you beat an Ultimate, everything else pales a bit so they're having fun at the group's expense
C) They bought their clear, no indication of skill whatsoever

My point: An UWU weapon is a bad example to use in this scenario because it does not mean that the player cleared UWU on that particular job. I can get an Ultima Curtana despite not knowing how to play Paladin because I've cleared UWU on Red Mage.