Can we talk about the elephant in the room - Permanent Bans from the Official Forums

The way I see it if people are afraid to give their feedback on here because they’re afraid of being banned, as several have expressed, than that is a serious enough issue for a Q and A. I’m not talking about asking him to unban a specific account but make him aware that there’s something wrong with the way the forum is operating that’s causing players to withhold their feedback. After all this is one of SE’s main sources of gathering feedback from the community

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

The way I see it if people are afraid to give their feedback on here because they’re afraid of being banned, as several have expressed, than that is a serious enough issue for a Q and A. I’m not talking about asking him to unban a specific account but make him aware that there’s something wrong with the way the forum is operating that’s causing players to withhold their feedback. After all this is one of SE’s main sources of gathering feedback from the community

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Giving feedback to the forum (even when GM's directly tell you to do so) results in a ban some times.
So I guess you're right there, but I think more people just want questions that deal within the game.
I agree with Alimdia. I'm scared to say much of anything anymore lol.

Uh oh, testing to see if I'm banned.

Edit: Hurray!

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

The rules have been the same as they have always been since 1.0. Action being taken is going to be entirely dependent on a moderator seeing it/being reported.

http://support.na.square-enix.com/ru...la=1&tag=forum

"Use of inappropriate or aggressive language."

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Double edit: I'm dumb, there's totally a link in the general forum rules.

Good to know. Though it's kind of crazy that they have rules listed on the forums themselves, then they have a whole different set of rules on a different site that we're supposed to know about, without so much as a link in the rules on the actual forums.

Whats sad is that there must be a handful of trolls going around clicking "report" in order to get people banned for ridiculous things. I say trolls because I dont think its possible for anyone to be that much of a total snowflake. (lol anyone who legit feels threatened by "popotoes" should seek professional help)

I'd like to think that the mods look at people post history before taking action, but I kind of doubt it after seeing one of the nicer and more helpful members of the pvp community get perma banned for trying to draw attention to the bot problem.

Incidentally, the only time Ive ever reported someone was for actively encouraging botting. Ofc nothing came of it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

By the rules there are, expressly, no actions for which you cannot be banned if the forum moderators desire to ban you.

"Posting seeking to damage or disparage Square Enix" can include any and all criticism, constructive or otherwise, while "Taking any other actions that are deemed inappropriate by Square Enix in our sole discretion" covers literally everything.

That said, the vast majority of people I know who've been banned have been banned because, in descending order of frequency, they reported a player here, rather than in-game; they released game information such as stat weights; engaged in heated, though still useful and topic-appropriate, discussions; or they gave detailed criticism of directorship, constructively aimed and, by most readers, received. Though that last part is by far the smallest, and the first the largest, it's still enough to make me regret posting honestly in some cases, and has certainly trimmed down the amount of constructive feedback I'm willing to give, especially any parts that compare the suggestion to the current state of the game to highlight the problems I perceive in the latter. In other cases, though, I can't help but be honest about it, at which point I just use whether or not I get banned from the forum to decide for me whether or not I'll keep playing XIV at all.

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

I understand that the process for appealing an account action is somewhat vague, and this is something that we are certainly working on improving.

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Greetings, everyone!

I had previously noted that we are working on improving the process for requesting a review or appeal of an account action. I am happy to note that we have implemented a process that should make this more efficient for customers looking to have this done.

We worked to create a form for requesting a review or appeal of an account action for a game service account or forum account, and you can access it here.

• Please note that this will require you to log into the account in question.
• If it is the Square Enix ID that has been terminated, then you would need to contact the Support Center for the review.
• You can also find a Knowledge Base article with the link and details on the Support Center, since that will be easier to find in the future than digging around for this forum post.

There are a few things to note about these reviews:

1. The review or appeal will not provide additional details about the account action unless it was determined to be issued improperly.
2. The account action review can only be conducted once per account action. Additional reviews for the same account action, without new, mitigating details, will be provided the results of the prior review.
3. If the account action was the result of an account compromise, please submit the request for Game Data Recovery instead.
4. If the account action is a result of a billing issue, please contact the Support Center to obtain assistance.

I hope this new form and process makes it easier to raise your concerns about account actions, as well as get better answers and responses about the reviews.

LGM Enkrateia

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

We worked to create a form for requesting a review or appeal of an account action for a game service account or forum account, and you can access it here.

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I've submitted an appeal through the previous method, and have been told it will be given to the Lead Game Master, and have not seen a response since then. Should I submit a new appeal under this system, or would it be redundant?

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Originally Posted by Freyt

I've submitted an appeal through the previous method, and have been told it will be given to the Lead Game Master, and have not seen a response since then. Should I submit a new appeal under this system, or would it be redundant?

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Greetings, Freyt.

Without looking too much into the prior request, I would recommend using this new method to follow up on it. In the event that there was an issue that could have made responding difficult before, this should get you a response.

I hope this helps.

LGM Enkrateia

Why do posts get deleted sometimes? Is it because we may have quoted a bad post?

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

Why do posts get deleted sometimes? Is it because we may have quoted a bad post?

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Probably. I've had one deleted before for quoting a post with a bad word but they delete my post and not the one I quoted.

Their forum moderation leaves something to be desired.

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Originally Posted by Enlial

Whats sad is that there must be a handful of trolls going around clicking "report" in order to get people banned for ridiculous things. I say trolls because I dont think its possible for anyone to be that much of a total snowflake. (lol anyone who legit feels threatened by "popotoes" should seek professional help)

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Reported:D Yes that was a joke.

When i read some of the reasons why people got banned and for how long they got banned, many others in this forum have to be very lucky that they didn't get banned yet, me included.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Probably. I've had one deleted before for quoting a post with a bad word but they delete my post and not the one I quoted.

Their forum moderation leaves something to be desired.

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Yeah I saw a lot of posts deleted here because of that:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ion-and-a-rant.
Why can't they edit the posts taking out the quote in the posts that are fine?

Also I find it really weird how that thread died just because 8? or so posts got removed. It is like people forgot it existed.

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Greetings, everyone!

I had previously noted that we are working on improving the process for requesting a review or appeal of an account action. I am happy to note that we have implemented a process that should make this more efficient for customers looking to have this done.

We worked to create a form for requesting a review or appeal of an account action for a game service account or forum account, and you can access it here.

• Please note that this will require you to log into the account in question.
• If it is the Square Enix ID that has been terminated, then you would need to contact the Support Center for the review.
• You can also find a Knowledge Base article with the link and details on the Support Center, since that will be easier to find in the future than digging around for this forum post.

There are a few things to note about these reviews:

1. The review or appeal will not provide additional details about the account action unless it was determined to be issued improperly.
2. The account action review can only be conducted once per account action. Additional reviews for the same account action, without new, mitigating details, will be provided the results of the prior review.
3. If the account action was the result of an account compromise, please submit the request for Game Data Recovery instead.
4. If the account action is a result of a billing issue, please contact the Support Center to obtain assistance.

I hope this new form and process makes it easier to raise your concerns about account actions, as well as get better answers and responses about the reviews.

LGM Enkrateia

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Greetings, everyone!

I understand that the process for appealing an account action is somewhat vague, and this is something that we are certainly working on improving. However, there are currently 2 options for appealing any account action:

1. Contact a GM in game to explain why you feel the account action is unjustified.
2. Contact the Support Center (NA)/Support Center (EU) to explain why you feel the account action is unjustified.

These requests are escalated along with the additional information you provide to ensure the account action was issued correctly. As a general rule of thumb, however, account actions will only be reviewed once unless there is determined to be some sort of exceptional circumstance.

As I mentioned before, we are working on improving this process to make it more streamlined for customers.

LGM Enkrateia

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Also please note what needs "improving" is realizing something went wrong and wrong action was taken. It feels like you never reverse actions taken, even when it is very clear it was unfair.

O.O

Well, this is unexpected yet welcomed.

Thank you for the reply, and link to appeal process.

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

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Enkrateia, good morning.

Regarding the time people have to appeal their bans, is there a limit for it? Since it's a newly implemented system, can old banned accounts use it to see their accounts reviewed?

Additionally, speaking as an ex-GM/forum mod from a different game: is there any plans to address the criteria that your team is using to ban accounts? Some seem to be too exaggerated considering they aren't too severe, but the 3-strike rule doesn't seem to be too flexible combined with the first point I just remarked.

Instead of banning accounts right off the bat, you should also consider the implementation of a warn system or, to put it simple, a "slap on the wrist" action. Delete/edit a post, send said user a notification with mentioned warning. Applying 10 days ban for something that can be addressed in a different manner is damaging for community, as you disable these people from participating in the feedback process or bugs/exploit reports.

The team should aim to have a healthy community. Users here aren't just mere numbers that you delete/ban and call it a day. They are part of your game and the community you've formed. So I hope I could see positive changes on this subject.

It's my understanding that previous actions result in "marks" on your account - and those never expire. Would using this new system allow GMs to remove marks against an account if they feel there was a misunderstanding?

Agreed. It always irked me when yoshi would mention "well, post in the official forums!" in the letter from the producer and I'm just thinking: So.... in other words I should tempt the high chance to get banned the moment I say something that the dozens of delicate snowflakes don't like? How about no thanks! waste of time since reddit exists with much less risk of getting banned and let's be real here, it's not like the devs even read the English forums anyway, so...

My understanding is that SE outsources their forum moderation to a third party. Obviously a poor choice and its long past time that SE switches to an in house team that can be directly supervised and can actually work with the in game GMs.

Greetings!

It seems there were a few questions that were asked that I can provide a bit more information about.

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

Why do posts get deleted sometimes? Is it because we may have quoted a bad post?

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This can be a very complicated question, especially since I cannot get into specifics about actual, past moderation actions. However, in general, the most common reasons this is done without an account action being issued are:

• The post quotes a post that was considered a violation. This removes the violation from the forums completely.
• On a related note, the post may be continuing a discussion that was removed due to being a violation. This removes confusion of posts seeming to discuss topics out of nowhere and can prevent violations from continuing.
• The post or thread was in violation of the rules and found by a Game Master before other players reported it. In certain cases, this is a preventative measure by the Game Master who knows they would be required to issue an account action if it was otherwise reported.
• In the case of a large scale moderation action, the post may not have contributed to the discussion. Normally we would overlook these, but will remove them if we're already doing a lot of work to help clean up a thread.

This is not every reason that this may occur, but it does cover the most common reasons. When these types of actions are done en masse, we usually lock the thread and try to communicate the moderation action; however, this is not always possible for isolated moderation. Any moderation action that is counted against an account would be accompanied with an email notification about the violation.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Regarding the time people have to appeal their bans, is there a limit for it? Since it's a newly implemented system, can old banned accounts use it to see their accounts reviewed?

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While there is no time limit on being able to request an appeal or review, it is better to do it sooner than later. While account actions are documented, understanding context and the ability to further investigate are hampered by time.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

It's my understanding that previous actions result in "marks" on your account - and those never expire. Would using this new system allow GMs to remove marks against an account if they feel there was a misunderstanding?

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Account actions that are found to have been incorrectly issued would remove the infraction from the account when considering future account actions. However, this decision would be made by the Account Administrator (who the reviews and appeals are escalated to), not a Game Master.

I hope this provides a bit of additional context and information.

LGM Enkrateia

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Originally Posted by pinder2009

My understanding is that SE outsources their forum moderation to a third party. Obviously a poor choice and its long past time that SE switches to an in house team that can be directly supervised and can actually work with the in game GMs.

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That rumor is still around, eh?

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

• The post or thread was in violation of the rules and found by a Game Master before other players reported it. In certain cases, this is a preventative measure by the Game Master who knows they would be required to issue an account action if it was otherwise reported.
• In the case of a large scale moderation action, the post may not have contributed to the discussion. Normally we would overlook these, but will remove them if we're already doing a lot of work to help clean up a thread.

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Originally Posted by pinder2009

My understanding is that SE outsources their forum moderation to a third party. Obviously a poor choice and its long past time that SE switches to an in house team that can be directly supervised and can actually work with the in game GMs.

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GMs do also moderate the forums.

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

The GMs do also moderate the forums. With most of the moderation they do, they are actually not very visible, but they do occasionally post replies to threads when it's appropriate. They actually draw my attention to topics that I respond to most of the time that I do that.

LGM Enkrateia

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Greetings!

It seems there were a few questions that were asked that I can provide a bit more information about.

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Can we get better communication please? Like after submitting a request, have an automated email to be sent, so the player knows it was properly processed, as in first step. We are often left in a dark in a lot of instances and wondering if it simply did not get lost somewhere.

It is very especially to mistype a letter, even if there is a confirmation window for the email entry.

edit, nvm, it was just slow, she finally got a confirmation. With that I have a small edit to this request.

Can you make this system where as soon as the request is submitted, you send out an automated email (should be instant like everywhere else or within a few minutes)

Then once you actually start the process, and do the 24-48 hour thing, send out a second email stating as such?

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

LGM Enkrateia

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If you're still up for answering questions I would absolutely love a clear idea of what sort of posts qualify as actionable from a GM perspective.

I ask because I have several friends who have been banned either temporarily or permanently for posts that 100% fall outside the realm of spam, advertising and rude/fighting/harrassment which is laid out when a forum user goes to report a post.

I'm sure you aren't able to address any specific bans much less in such a public manner and I'm not asking that you do but if you would like an example of the source of my confusion you can look into forum user VanilleFang. They were banned for quite literally nothing.

I enjoy having this additional point of contact with SE and overall I would say my forum experiences are a net positive but I would be lying if I didn't say I'm both scared of this seemingly nonsensical banning protocol and also frustrated that people who I know myself and other users have reported for spam and harrassment are still bumbling around on here.

So yes, can you offer any clarity as to what sorts of posts are considered actionable?

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

So yes, can you offer any clarity as to what sorts of posts are considered actionable?

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Yes it is really shocking to me how some players are still here making passive/aggressive posts, while others did literally nothing and get banned.

Thank you Enkrateia. I appreciate you clarifying the issues. As someone who has moderated large community forums in the past, I know yours is NOT an easy job!

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

We worked to create a form for requesting a review or appeal of an account action for a game service account or forum account, and you can access it here.

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Hi there. Is there an EU version of this form at all? I can only find it on the NA site and the husband can't use that one due to being EU.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

Hi there. Is there an EU version of this form at all? I can only find it on the NA site and the husband can't use that one due to being EU.

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Last I heard there isn't one yet, but there may be in the future.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

Hi there. Is there an EU version of this form at all? I can only find it on the NA site and the husband can't use that one due to being EU.

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Yeah I second the need for EU version of this.

When I had a forum problem, there sadly is no way to speak to a specific person, as they don't have one. Like, if you had a problem on EQ2 forums, you could contact someone in CSR, and they could contact a Red Name on the forums to take a look at reports on you.

They don't have that here at all. So you can't fight against what happened to you and just wait out the time.

EDIT: I see they now made a form to appeal an action on your account. I bookmarked it just in case.

Anybody got their account unbanned? I know plenty of people that got their reviews rejected telling them their ban was 100% justified.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Anybody got their account unbanned? I know plenty of people that got their reviews rejected telling them their ban was 100% justified.

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I suppose the final call is theirs, I just hope the bans they say are justified...are justified.

I know VanilleFang has been waiting a while yet, I dunno if she's gotten a response or not though.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Anybody got their account unbanned? I know plenty of people that got their reviews rejected telling them their ban was 100% justified.

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I’m curious as well. I haven’t heard of any bans being rescinded yet.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m curious as well. I haven’t heard of any bans being rescinded yet.

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Ok :<

I guess it was just lip service then.

Just get multiple service accounts.

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Originally Posted by Rockette

Ok :<

I guess it was just lip service then.

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I think it may have been, sadly. I don't normally post on the forums, but my boyfriend's story is similar to a lot here.

Like many have described, he got perma-banned for a relatively innocuous post. It had a single f-word in it that he bleeped out (asterisks for the three letters after f), and also a four-letter word beginning with p that also means urine. I'm hesitant to type either, because I don't know what he got banned for exactly. He was strongly responding to a post that had labeled a previous one of his with the r-word, but these were the only two words that could even remotely convey rudeness. The poster who called his ideas the r-word didn't receive so much as a temp ban that we could find. My boyfriend, on the other hand, received a perma-ban, despite having only one offense on his record previously (for a more clear-cut, but still language-related, post about a year ago).

He appealed the verdict through the form that was posted a few weeks ago, and got nowhere. Ban fully justified, and stays in effect. This means he cannot participate in certain forum-only community events, cannot contribute his ideas, cannot really comment on the game at all via official means. All because of - near as we can tell - a self-deleted swear word (it was never written in its full form) and a four-letter word for urine that one is likely to hear by the time they're six years old.

Honestly, we feel like permanent bans really shouldn't exist except in extraordinary circumstances. A little profanity here or there, a harsh response to someone, a careful attempt to discuss parsers that include screenshots from said parsers - these sorts of offenses, if considered offenses at all, should be punished (at most) by relatively short temporary bans, a few days maybe, scaling up to a week or so if the behaviour is repeated. That's about what they'd get from FFXIV itself, so why should the forums be moderated so much more aggressively? It just doesn't make sense.

We're also very disappointed that the feedback form appears to be nothing more than window dressing over the same broken process. This is a widespread problem - on the Reddit forums it's almost treated as a badge of pride - and that should be evoking more of a response from SE than we're seeing.

As an aside, for those in doubt of that bizarre way in which punishments are dished out in this game, check out this thread:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...egrity-at-risk

Obviously take it with a pinch of salt and do your own research, but people are getting away with making dirty money off of this game and cheating to get exclusive rewards even as other players are permanently banned for one off heated posts or naming and shaming out of sheer frustration. There's at least one player - with multiple accounts - who baits players into saying things they regret by bragging about all of the houses they have acquired through dubious means, knowing full well that the artificial shortage of player housing has left a lot of people out of luck.

Worse yet, it'll likely never be acknowledged...because whenever anyone does bring up the state of moderation we just get told that they cannot comment on individual cases.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

He appealed the verdict through the form that was posted a few weeks ago, and got nowhere. Ban fully justified, and stays in effect.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

We're also very disappointed that the feedback form appears to be nothing more than window dressing over the same broken process.

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The form is for queries about account actions that might have been incorrectly issued. It was never stated that you could get justified account actions reversed.

You guys should just come out and unequivocally ask for changes to the forum ToS and the severity of penalties handed out for infringements.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

and also a four-letter word beginning with p that also means urine.

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The irony of getting banned over a word that appears in in-game text on countless occasions never ceases to make me cringe =(

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

The irony of getting banned over a word that appears in in-game text on countless occasions never ceases to make me cringe =(

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If they hate swearing so much, why not just implement an automatic filter like almost every forum in existence? (Though that did result in WoW's forums censoring the item Telaari Grapes...I think they fixed it though.)

i have sent 2 applies for my account

i got banned becos i stood my ground as someone thats gay i now hate Sq as full and maybe seeking legal action i feel the person that did report me has abused his rights as a player and i coped it for standing up for myself and a lier/ bully