You're right there's no meta because dungeons are extremely forgiving, if you want to practice something new (like, say, stance switching as a tank) you should be able to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by SinisterJoints
If someone's level 67 they're almost at end game, where stance dancing will be expected of them, so there's nothing wrong with trying it at that point. I'd rather have someone not know how their job works in a Doma Castle run than in a Byakko EX party.
Tank Stance
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06-15-2018, 01:39 AMAmeela
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06-15-2018, 01:45 AMReynhartI'm not talking about pulling, I'm talking about keeping monsters on you when you risk losing hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
980 potency enmity for Tomawhak vs 1300 potency enmity for Overpower, for the same TP cost. So, yes, IF enmity is your problem, you SHOULD be doing this. -
06-15-2018, 01:49 AMFelis
The devs would remove the DPS stance from tanks, if enough people ask for it (and decrease the damage for more enmity), but never the tank stance.
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06-15-2018, 01:51 AMMoroMurasakiIf you're pulling use our ranged enmity generator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
If you're losing hate do your enmity combo.
This isn't rocket science. -
06-15-2018, 01:54 AMJijifliHe means that, if you have trigger happy dps that don't diversion, you do something like... Tomahawk, then an Overpower.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
Because the first hit of your enmity combo has no enmity boost to it. If you know you don't need to overpower in that case and can just go right to enmity combo, then do that, that's better. If you have the scenario where the RDM is pre-casting a verthunder with no diversion right for the pull though, that helps. -
06-15-2018, 01:55 AMReynhartAs stated earlier, the first hit of your enmity combo doesn't have enmity bonuses, so using one or two Overpowers is safer for additionnal initial enmity.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
Stop nitpicking when you can't think outside of the box... -
06-15-2018, 01:56 AMMoroMurasakiI suppose this is where my mean streak comes out - I'd let that RDM eat an auto attack or two :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Jijifli
Edit: and still Overpower or whatever wouldn't be necessary. There isn't a fight where you're going to have a RDM being that lax about enmity where the boss is opening with some crazy tankbuster. If someone wants to walk into Demon Chad and open without Diversion.... they deserve that death imo.
Because, for what feels like the 11th time, enmity is everyone's responsibility. -
06-15-2018, 02:05 AMReynhartBut then, they whine endlessly during the content that you don't do your job as a tank. So, for my own sanity, I'd rather make up for their mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
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06-15-2018, 02:31 AMaddz3Nice retort, having heard this one in ages.... /sarcasmQuote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
epic fail. Don't you just hate misspelling. Thanks for setting this one upQuote:
cohearent*
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06-15-2018, 02:38 AMMoroMurasakiDo you plan to respond to the plethora of other ways I pointed out your stupidity or literally just nitpick one misspelled word?Quote:
Originally Posted by addz3
Oh wait that could add value and substance and clearly you're devoid of both of those.
My bad, carry on. -
06-15-2018, 02:50 AMaddz3My plan was to use ridiculous word play to point out your mistake much like you did mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
Tbh lets just end this thread, my original intent was to express an opinion based through experience and frustration regarding tanks that prioritise dps over enmity regardless and irrelevant of what other group members did or did not do. Way to much assumption has been made which caused me to comment on one of your posts. I have no real problem with you carry on with whatever you do. Let those tanks who masquerade as dps carry on. I've lost interest in my op as things have escalated to a level which I hadn't foreseen. If I'm guilty of not reading your posts fully then so be it, likewise I think your guilty of misunderstanding mine. -
06-15-2018, 02:59 AMMoroMurasakiI don't know if guilt is necessarily the correct term but fair enough. I would be happy to see it closed as well \o/Quote:
Originally Posted by addz3
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06-15-2018, 03:55 AMEorzeaHero69
If the warrior is holding plenty of aggro on bosses, then he can be in deliverence to hit harder. It's pretty much true for all tanks with their offensive stances. But if he is still losing aggro despite plenty of hate combos beforehand, I have a few guesses- he was either too undergeared, healer may be overhealing too much, or other people may not be using abilities that either cut hate in half or reduce hate generation.
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06-15-2018, 04:14 AMAkava
There was a time where a tank losing aggro to a healer or a dps meant they were a shitty tank. Nowadays, it seems that everyone works their tail off to manage threat EXCEPT for the actual tank. They run into a fight use an oGCD or two while in tank stance then immediately go into dps stance, never using an aggro combo throughout the entire fight. Then when the boss turns around and cleaves the entire raid, the tank acts like it was the party's fault.
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06-15-2018, 05:41 AMSacred_NymWell, with abilities like Diversion, Lucid, and Shadewalker being as powerful as they are, without reducing the damage output of anyone involved, it's honestly difficult to argue that aggro is the tank's job. Yes they're the one that should be holding it, but they have remarkably little they can do for gaining or managing it on their own without destroying their own damage output. Meanwhile everyone else, and I mean literally everyone else including the tank that's not actually tanking at a given moment, has ways to reduce their own aggro and/or give aggro to the main tank nd none of this has any negative impact on damage at all and in fact in some cases has an indirect positive impact (Tactician/Refresh/Lucid). Given all this, why on gods green earth should managing hate be the active tank's job. You're literally asking them to sacrifice a significant part of their contribution all you so can avoid hitting a button.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akava
As for why it's the case only now? Well once upon a time Shadewalker and Shirk didn't exist, Lucid only existed on a single job, Diversion was only available to three, had a much shorter duration, smaller reduction, and a much longer cooldown. Non-tanks could only do so much to manage their aggro on their own so longer tank stance uptime and more enmity combos (which were much less effectual at gathering hate back then) were simply the only option. As for why it changed, a few factors. One is that several raiders would (and still do) lock out jobs or mandatecertain other jobsninjas all in the name of reducing their enmity combo count even by one. Other bad or lazy tanks would yell at DPS to "do less damage" all so they themselves can continue not actually trying. All of this fosters poor play in general so instead of holding back DPS (either by increasing tank stance uptime or by DPS simply not pushing buttons anymore) SE gave people tools to keep up the paintrain without bothering the tank. This is the end result. -
06-15-2018, 06:31 AMAlarayIt's like the game is designed that way or something, dang.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akava
In Destiny tanks shoot guns and it's first person, what on earth are the tanks in this game doing using swords and axes? It's like they have no clue what they're doing. -
06-15-2018, 07:35 AMwhiskeybravoI mean, you said "nerf the shit out of" the only thing that makes tanking remotely interesting. What kind of reaction did you expect? LolQuote:
Originally Posted by addz3
(Though I'll be honest 14 pages surprises me)
IMO, as a long time (mostly) tank main, there's no reason to let the party get cleaved or take aggro unnecessarily. Especially as a warrior, there's plenty of tools to get threat back. The only real way a decent warrior is going to be at risk of losing aggro is if they pulled in deliverance without a ninja. Unchained>Tomahawk>Equilibrium>Storm's Eye combo is the standard opener and more than enough to solidify threat on a boss before getting into IR burst. Anything trickier should be reserved for static group play, not to be expected in random DF/PF pugs.
At the end of the day this stuff happens. I've seen plenty of bad tanks, bad dps, bad healers in the nearly 5 years I've been playing the game, and I can probably count on one hand the number of times that's actually prevented a dungeon clear (raiding is different of course).. But I'm the type that would rather avoid confrontation so I just let it go and carry on about my business. The chances of running into the same person again are pretty slim. -
06-15-2018, 09:37 AMBluexBirdThere is no need for aggro combo when you're a Warrior. If you start in Defiance, use Throw Tomahawk and Equilibrium, you will get a huge aggro lead. And by the time you're done with your Inner Release combo (which includes an Onslaught), you can keep on going with the fight without having to use Butcher's Block or Defiance a single time. And if for some reason you happen to have DPS/healers who don't worry about stealing aggro, the other tank can just Provoke and Shirk you. In fact, the more tank swaps a fight has, the easier it is to keep aggro without using tank stance/aggro combos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akava
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06-15-2018, 02:12 PMAkavaBecause you're a tank. If you want to focus exclusively on your dps, just play a dps. They've buffed Diversion to absurd levels and recently gave Monks and Samurai aggro reduction tools, which come at the cost of damage. So now dps jobs are having to reduce their damage because the main tank doesn't want to play like a tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacred_Nym
And don't even get me started on White Mages. They're expected to do the bulk of the healing while also having to constantly be afraid of a boss turning around and slapping them in the face. -
06-15-2018, 02:18 PMF_MaximillianWell, no, it's because they generate excessive amounts of enmity and square noticed it thus they gave them an aggro dump that has been requested by players of those classes for a long time now. White mages who properly use their lucid dreaming almost never have aggro problems unless they're sitting there spamming heals on full hp targets instead of spamming stones and holies to make things dead. That and white mages doing the bulk of the healing isn't really a thing. In fact in most fights with a scholar they tend to out heal the white mages due to their vast amount of ogcd heals. Tanks main responsibility is to hold aggro, not to be the only one in the group working to manage it because people are too lazy to press an extra button. Maybe on other games you may have come from tanks do nothing but spam enmity combos but on this game it's everyone's job to push damage since encounters and skills given practically scream at you to do so. Whether or not you're (not you in particular) deaf to that is a different story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akava
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06-15-2018, 02:51 PMSacred_NymThing is, they don't. One aggro combo (or even one Onslaught) on single target, or two Overpowers/Unleashes/Abyssals/Flashes on groups in tank stance is more than enough to hold aggro against any DPS that uses their own aggro tools. These skills are that powerful for the express purpose of avoiding the situation of any player expecting DPS to hold back for any reason. Players that don't utilize these skills are simply throwing extra work on the tank for no benefit to anyone, and nobody wants that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akava
As for White mage, the only way I see a White Mage taking aggro is if they go overboard with Cure III, and most of those cases there's serious overhealing going on. Now if another player is expecting a White Mage to shoulder all that on their own is a bad player, full stop. It's no different than a player who avoids their aggro skills because "that's the tank's job" or w/e. In skilled parties that majority of healing is done by regens and Eos, and nearly anything beyond that gets planned out in prog Succor here, Medica II there, Lustrate there, Benison there, etc. In more casual content... there just isn't enough healing necessary for it to matter.
Plus in the absolute ABSOLUTE worst case scenario, Ninja's have Smokescreen. -
06-15-2018, 09:55 PMKaldeaSahalineI am a bit too busy today to read through all 15 pages, but I'll ask this:Quote:
Originally Posted by addz3
1) Did you use diversion. A simple yes or no will suffice.
2) Agreed they should get rid of DPS stance. And Tank stance while they're at it. Stances are garbage binary toggle mechanics that should have stayed in 2004 MMO design where they belong.
3) Cleric stance was never "mainly for solo play" back in the day. It was always used to contribute damage, which good healers always did, even back in the day. -
06-15-2018, 10:09 PMNarangerelYou're not getting what im saying. It doesnt matter if you think there is no meta for dungeons. If there is a way to play a job or role it is going to be played that way regardless of the content it's being played in.Quote:
Originally Posted by SinisterJoints