O5N is unfair for pure healer

*sigh* So this is the next debate for 2018, innit?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I dont like it at all, just keep me alive when im tanking it.
IT WOULD BE more beneficial to the party if i will be able to pull more than 3 groups of mobs and not die in the process.

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You're trying to sidetrack the discussion: no one is advocating neglecting healing your group and focusing on DPS instead. Everyone agrees that a healer should make sure their tank and group is safe first and then DPS if they're able to. (Of course mistakes sometimes happen to healers just like to everyone else, and those should be allowed as well.)

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Still you and the big part of the community require from the healers class to do more job than you do on the DPS class.

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Let me refer you to my previous post from this thread:

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Originally Posted by Taika

All roles are a bit different in what's required from them, and different players find different roles easy or hard or enjoyable or unpleasant. DDs may have only "one job" (which isn't even strictly true since they're expected to buff, debuff, raise etc. in addition to DPSing), but it takes a lot of effort pushing great DPS by keeping your rotation up, adjusting that rotation for each fight, and maximising your actions per minute while handing the fight mechanics (which also means things like minimising your movement and all other downtime while you're doing them). There's a huge difference in this game between a passable and a great DD player, which in my opinion does not merely show that most DD players are bad and/or lazy, but rather that it really takes some effort maximising your performance as one.

For healers and tanks, their basic priority job is much simpler, and the challenge of those roles comes more from minimising the effort you need to put into handling that part of your job while maximising your usefulness to your group with DPS. If a healer or a tank would just heal or tank, they would be simply using much less abilities and much less often than the DDs. Which is why they are expected to participate in the DPS part too (after first handling the primary part of their role).

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So no, healers are not asked to do more than others. They are asked to do as much as others, which means contributing by DPS if and when they would be contributing significantly less than other party members when only filling their primary job. I once tried to only heal and do nothing else in expert dungeon in this game. I ended up being active only 17% of the dungeon while the rest of my team was active for 70%+ of the dungeon (and this was with a max pulling tank who had never tanked the dungeon before and had no gear from that patch at all - I took a video of the experiment if you wish to see what it looked like).

What is being asked for is that instead of me spending that 53% of activity difference standing still, doing /icam or /mandervilledancing away, I will do something useful for my group. And since there isn't anything useful but DPS to do (since I'm already covering the healing requirements), I should DPS. Simple as that.

And while my experiment is old, someone did a similar one recently in Skalla as a Scholar, ending up with only 9% activity when they did nothing but healing. So here are a couple of examples of how low the healing requirements can be, now can you show some proof of the situations in which healers absolutely have to do nothing but healing? :)

Aaaand people took the thread seriously. Oh my

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

Aaaand people took the thread seriously. Oh my

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To be fair, while the OP was probably a troll, this is a problem with some players who think that healers shouldn't have an emphasis on DPS....

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

Aaaand people took the thread seriously. Oh my

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I never took the OP seriously.
But, the people who've replied I"ve taken seriously.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I have healed almost every single content in this game since 1.0 (only current patch, Coil Savage and Ultimate excluded) and I have never ever met a tank so bad I would have not had any time to DPS. Of course there are situations which require a lot of healing, but looking at standard runs rather than exceptions, it is clear healers should have plenty of time to DPS in all content.

I don't know if you've played healer in this content yourself, but in many low level dungeons you don't really need to cast many heals at all during pulls. In Sastasha you mentioned as an example, I once watched my partner heal it in full-time cleric stance (pre-SB) using nothing but Essential Dignity. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/i...es/biggrin.png

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In my years of playing.
Once, maybe twice, I've come across a situation where I just couldn't find the time to dps.

I'm not sure if the tank was just horribly geared, or just horrible...
I just couldn't find 5 seconds of time to pop out some damage before the tank's hp would plummet to next to nothing, or nothing.

And, this was back before stormblood, so I had to work around Cleric Stance timing.
I tried several times at the beginning of the run to sneak in dps with Cleric, but I just couldn't work around that tank and cleric stance.

It was just less frustrating to focus on keeping that tank alive than to mess with cleric stance.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

And the most baffling is when they overestimate the damage done by a healer or underestimate how bad can be a DF party. It is more likely they're now DPS who never healed a DF party since the 1st Umbral Era and never were on a bad party or think that people standing on the bad is just a legend.

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Funny that you say this when a WHM spamming Holy easily out-bursts most DPS jobs in large pulls.

Healers in this game were never designed to be "pure healers".

read all the posts in this thread and I am quite literally stunned at how many healers think they should not deal damage during encounters. Do you not get bored just... watching?

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

To be fair, while the OP was probably a troll, this is a problem with some players who think that healers shouldn't have an emphasis on DPS....

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Which I can understand since it can be a foreign concept if you come from other games. But even me as someone who in the days of ARR was completely against healers needing to dps, I've come around to see it as a very nice bonus. It's something that people can't be forced into doing and they need to hopefully discover for themselves the benefits. Standing around just topping off a health bar gets boring and the devs went and made it even less stressful to throw in some damage.

Food for thought
A: healers can't get through job quests without doing damage.
B: Healers who just stand around doing nothing but healing make things very slow.


Conclusion - your doing it wrong if your not doing damage.

HOWEVER - Healers should prioritize healing...THEN...damage when nothing left to heal.

If you go full DPS...your doing it wrong.
If you go heals only....your doing it wrong.

Balance it out. It's not that hard.
:)

Just remember....DPS is SECONDARY....NOT PRIMARY...you are STILL a healer.

Geez, these "pure" healer topics are always so full of utter nonsense.

Its not an issue of game design. In every game with a healer it will always be advantageous to prefer the players who can do their main job while contributing extra utility (in the form of dps/raid utility or whatever) over players who can only do their main job.

Also, your job isnt to keep a group at 100% HP. Get over it. The best possible theoretical run would end with everyone living with 1 HP.

Healers that only dps are either : Lazy, Selfish, or Incompetent

Note- Incompetent is not an insult here, a person can go from being incompetent to competent. Possibly easier than changing from lazy or selfish.

If you get kicked or get greifed for being lazy or selfish that is on you. If it is for your incompetence than it is possibly on you.

It is a fact, that given the choice, players whose primary goals are to clear content will take healers who can dps and heal effectively over "pure" healers. So please look forward to having your slots taken by those healers.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I dont like it at all, just keep me alive when im tanking it.
IT WOULD BE more beneficial to the party if i will be able to pull more than 3 groups of mobs and not die in the process.
Still you and the big part of the community require from the healers class to do more job than you do on the DPS class.
If the dps is so difficult, so why there is so big disparity in numbers of the players of each class?

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WHM here.

Sorry, but if your healers can't keep you alive while also DPSing, they are bad healers. I don't care how many years it takes you to understand this very simple piece of logic: It is a literal fact.

The abilities are there. If you are not using a global cooldown because no healing is necessary, you are objectively not doing anything. Not doing anything is objectively worse than causing damage to further advance the fight.

There is LITERALLY no debate about this. None. It's hilariously already decided.

I think the problem with expecting DPS from healers right now is that there are real noticeable differences in how much DPS the different healers can deal.

If this is a long term expectation SE wants for healers they need to normalize the amount of DPS healers can dish out.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

I think the problem with expecting DPS from healers right now is that there are real noticeable differences in how much DPS the different healers can deal.

If this is a long term expectation SE wants for healers they need to normalize the amount of DPS healers can dish out.

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Not really, so long as they balance damage based on healing potencies and utility besides. Which isn't being done, to be fair.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

I think the problem with expecting DPS from healers right now is that there are real noticeable differences in how much DPS the different healers can deal.

If this is a long term expectation SE wants for healers they need to normalize the amount of DPS healers can dish out.

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honestly this is a non-issue - the other day my friend whom was tanking yelled at me for stealing aggro and out dps'ing my other DPS friend (in jest of course).
White Mage's can do a scary amount of damage and still effectively heal. It's why I like calling it the psychotic healer. :)

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

honestly this is a non-issue - the other day my friend whom was tanking yelled at me for stealing aggro and out dps'ing my other DPS friend (in jest of course).
White Mage's can do a scary amount of damage and still effectively heal. It's why I like calling it the psychotic healer. :)

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Sure WHM and SCH are doing DMG in about equal terms. AST is consistently behind. Which over time may make it a non-job. Similar to how DRK is currently.

I suppose the solution is level up the meta job. But as I said if this is going to be the new long term norm they should make it equal.

Add: https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15#class=Healers

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Originally Posted by Bobs

Sure WHM and SCH are doing DMG in about equal terms. AST is consistently behind.

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Because AST boosts the DPS of every other party member. Isn't current meta composition still AST+SCH too (and WHM for progression)?

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

Which I can understand since it can be a foreign concept if you come from other games. But even me as someone who in the days of ARR was completely against healers needing to dps, I've come around to see it as a very nice bonus. It's something that people can't be forced into doing and they need to hopefully discover for themselves the benefits. Standing around just topping off a health bar gets boring and the devs went and made it even less stressful to throw in some damage.

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But this is a final fantasy game, and white mages have always historically had damaging abilities and in some instances close to the best damaging abilities.

Just think, even though this is obviously a joke, I'm sure the dev team will take it seriously and will cater to it... =w=

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

That does not change my experience with the healers in the game.
I had just too many situations where i had to pop up 2 cd's at the time and lifesteal/clemency for the sake of keeping me alive, because healer decided to do dps.I dont like it at all, just keep me alive when im tanking it.
IT WOULD BE more beneficial to the party if i will be able to pull more than 3 groups of mobs and not die in the process.

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Most people you meet randomly in the duty finder are bad. Has nothing to do with a healer doing DPS.
For the next:

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Still you and the big part of the community require from the healers class to do more job than you do on the DPS class.
If the dps is so difficult, so why there is so big disparity in numbers of the players of each class?
Do not ask to do your job on someone who has different job than you, the game neither the developer does not ask a healer to do dps, its just a community fantasy that is unnecessary and bad especially in dungeon runs where you have to clear a lot of trash mobs in them. Letting me pull 1 more group would make it faster than few healers dots.

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If you are playing each job correctly, a DPS requires the most APM. Healer has the least required APM unless the tank is crazy bad. Has nothing to do with "hard" or "easy" dps requires you do the most actions per minute (APM) then other classes in this game, if your playing top game that is. It is obvious doing smallest pulls possible with the least damage output possible will just lead to 1 hr + clear times.

Any job can just hit 1 button and afk, but for some reason that confuses me to no end, people are lest insulted when healers do it.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

Sure WHM and SCH are doing DMG in about equal terms. AST is consistently behind. Which over time may make it a non-job. Similar to how DRK is currently.

I suppose the solution is level up the meta job. But as I said if this is going to be the new long term norm they should make it equal.

Add: https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15#class=Healers

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Again, you are using fflogs but you don't understand how to use it properly. Those numbers are personal DPS only IE: with spells like Stone IV, Malefic III, Broil II etc. Those numbers do not count AST cards in them.

AST is lower for their personal DPS than the other healers since they have cards that buff the entire party IE: Balance Card. You can't make AST do as much personal DPS as WHM and SCH otherwise AST will be unbalanced and overpowered compared to WHM and SCH.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

If you go full DPS...your doing it wrong.
If you go heals only....your doing it wrong.

Balance it out. It's not that hard.
:)

Just remember....DPS is SECONDARY....NOT PRIMARY...you are STILL a healer.

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The thing is this can be said for almost all jobs, just change 'healing' to 'keeping yourself and others alive' and you have a reasonable set of prioroties for any player.

You shouldn't stand in AoE, you shouldn't drag dangerous attacks like cleaves/markers into the party, you should be using your support abilities primarily with a focus on using them enough to clear the encounter and the rest of your time and energy should go into dps.

No one wants a selfish BLM who eats every AoE for 'their deeps' or a RDM who uses Displacement when it isn't safe and loldrgs themself. Sure, these things might lead to more short-term dps and there are times (seconds away from enrage, boss at 1%) that these decisions are the right ones but in general we all have to prioritize survival before damage or we're doing it wrong.

(I know there are mechs we ignore deapite the damage they cause because it works out to be beneficial to maintain uptime, I'm not taking this to a crazy extreme but rather the logial conclusion of "we all have the same responsibilities of staying alive, not harming the party and doing damage" irrespective of the color of our icon. Healers don't have more responsibility they just have more to do for support. Tanks do as well. So do some DPS like BRD and RDM, then eventually you find yourself at the other end of the spectrum as SAM who more or less dodges and dpses.)

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Originally Posted by Miste

AST is lower for their personal DPS than the other healers since they have cards that buff the entire party IE: Balance Card. You can't make AST do as much personal DPS as WHM and SCH otherwise AST will be unbalanced and overpowered compared to WHM and SCH.

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The OP was about individual DPS (troll or not). It's not a small difference as well. SE has more data than we do but it does not look like the cards balance out the lack of DPS from AST.

Again this is about INDIVIDUAL dps.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

The OP was about individual DPS (troll or not). It's not a small difference as well. SE has more data than we do but it does not look like the cards balance out the lack of DPS from AST.

Again this is about INDIVIDUAL dps.

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The OP was a troll, and individual DPS does not matter if it's not exceeding party buffs brought by other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

The OP was about individual DPS (troll or not). It's not a small difference as well. SE has more data than we do but it does not look like the cards balance out the lack of DPS from AST.

Again this is about INDIVIDUAL dps.

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Are we really going there about the AST DPS? Say that SE decides to buff our DPS...ppl would asking for nerfs because, as a whole, the AST would greatly exceed WHM/SCH because of both DPS AND the buffs that it brings to the party. Right now, the healer classes are relatively well balanced.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Because AST boosts the DPS of every other party member. Isn't current meta composition still AST+SCH too (and WHM for progression)?

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I don't keep up with the Reddit circlejerk but from my own personal experience I feel like every healer is actually doing alright balance-wise? This seems a far cry from 3.x or whatever - I don't see groups excluding any particular healer role or another except to maybe prevent role overlap. WHM tapers off a bit for stuff like speedruns but their powerhouse moves for progression aren't to be underestimated IMO. Benison change is great. SCH is versatile and really GCD-efficient, and AST pretty much always has a place in parties for their role as buff-bot.

Despite my criticism of XIV's overall healing design, I do feel like the devs hit their target mark fairly well when it comes to their desire to take an expansion off to better balance our existing healing jobs. We'll see how this balance holds up against ilevel inflation/scaling, but for now everything feels like it's in a decent enough place.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Again, you are using fflogs but you don't understand how to use it properly. Those numbers are personal DPS only IE: with spells like Stone IV, Malefic III, Broil II etc. Those numbers do not count AST cards in them.

AST is lower for their personal DPS than the other healers since they have cards that buff the entire party IE: Balance Card. You can't make AST do as much personal DPS as WHM and SCH otherwise AST will be unbalanced and overpowered compared to WHM and SCH.

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Isn't chain stratagem greater or equal to AST cards? I definitely think AST could use a damage buff.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

The OP was about individual DPS (troll or not). It's not a small difference as well. SE has more data than we do but it does not look like the cards balance out the lack of DPS from AST.

Again this is about INDIVIDUAL dps.

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You can't just ignore the DPS boost AST cards do and only look at individual DPS otherwise like I said AST would become too powerful since you are only looking at a single part of their DPS contribution and not the whole picture.

If you boost AST personal DPS then their personal DPS would be high and they also would boost the whole party's DPS with cards. You can't have both since WHM has nothing that boosts party DPS at all and SCH party DPS boosts are limited.

The cards are likely enough to keep AST within reasonable DPS with WHM and SCH. I main AST and we don't need more personal DPS. Our cards are what adds more rDPS to the group to make up for our personal DPS being lower.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

Isn't chain stratagem greater or equal to AST cards? I definitely think AST could use a damage buff.

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Well you can't only take into consideration SCH. Yeah Chain Strat is good, but you have to take into consideration WHM as well.

WHM has zero utility to buff rDPS; they only have their personal DPS. Any buff to AST can hurt WHM if overdone.

I still personally think AST Balance > Chain Strat, but its just my opinion. I don't have pure data to back it up and it also might depend on party composition and/or people stacking Crit.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

Isn't chain stratagem greater or equal to AST cards? I definitely think AST could use a damage buff.

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It lasts 15 seconds and is only a 15% crit chance increase, meaning it's possible it still does nothing. That's actually a still common complaint about the new spear, that it's still likely to do nothing.

Also, it has a 2 minute cooldown. AST's kit allows for multiple different types of boosts, not just the crit card. We have Balance, a straight up damage boost that could give everyone 5% more damage, which even after those nerfs is still argued to be the strongest card.

Although some ignore it's existence, Bole is useful on your MT to allow you to ignore them even more, allowing both you and your co-healer to push more dps or give attention to the dps.

Arrow is useful for basically everyone in general, and some benefit more than others. BLM love casting faster after all, and SAM's can get through your 3 combo's faster.

There are even points for Ewer and Spire, should something ever go wrong, or maybe you could Ewer a bard to get Foes faster.

These cards also last 30 seconds as a base minus Ewer/Spire at 15, and can be extended through multiple ways.

It can outbeat Chain.

Chain is easier and more consistent though. Something to be said for that. AST has less RNG and variance between cards than before, but it still has it, and i'm not sold on the usefulness of sleeve draw. AST does fit the pure healer mode better, though, as it manages its buffs as much as it does DPS. I find it a bit too finicky for what it does, though.

To be completely fair if we are bringing Chain into the mix we also have to account for Fey Wind and how consistent and available it is.

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Originally Posted by ThirdKeyOfSun

To be completely fair if we are bringing Chain into the mix we also have to account for Fey Wind and how consistent and available it is.

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Savage raid SCHs don't use Selene...only on pull if they wanna do that. Eos is just way more beneficial since she helps DPS up time.

I mean yeah Fey Wind exists but as a SCH you are sacrificing a lot of healing utility to use a weaker version of ASTs AoE Arrow and also weaker DPS boost than ASTs Balance.

Here is a calculator for raid damage/raid buffs.
example of what it shows.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Savage raid SCHs don't use Selene...only on pull if they wanna do that. Eos is just way more beneficial since she helps DPS up time.

I mean yeah Fey Wind exists but as a SCH you are sacrificing a lot of healing utility to use a weaker version of ASTs AoE Arrow and also weaker DPS boost than ASTs Balance.

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On FFlogs calculator Selene contributes to 5-700 Raid DPS with Fey Wind alone in Alt Roite. More than Chain Strategem.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

On FFlogs calculator Selene contributes to 5-700 Raid DPS with Fey Wind alone in Alt Roite. More than Chain Strategem.

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But this doesn't take into account the loss of dps uptime for both the SCH and their cohealer that is inevitable because you aren't using Eos.

Chain Strategem costs nothing.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

On FFlogs calculator Selene contributes to 5-700 Raid DPS with Fey Wind alone in Alt Roite. More than Chain Strategem.

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Moro already answered basically what I was going to say, but to add in anyway.

SCH has to sacrifice healer DPS uptime for that 3% speed every 60s since Selene lacks compared to Eos, while an AST can draw up to two cards every 30s which could end up getting a better 5% speed with AoE Arrow or maybe even AoE balance which is better than speed and that only costs 60s as well. RNG is a factor but that is one of the downsides to AST, their buffs are quite good but not consistent.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

But this doesn't take into account the loss of dps uptime for both the SCH and their cohealer that is inevitable because you aren't using Eos.

Chain Strategem costs nothing.

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*Taken from the fastest Alte Roite kill*. Although you seem to be correct. Combined healer DPS with Eos is 800 more on average.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

*Taken from the fastest Alte Roite kill*. Although you seem to be correct. Combined healer DPS with Eos is 800 more on average.

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Yeah, Eos is too good to pass up. Selene needs some serious TLC from the devs.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

*Taken from the fastest Alte Roite kill*. Although you seem to be correct. Combined healer DPS with Eos is 800 more on average.

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Yeah it would be higher. I mean the best speed runners can use Selene quite well. They play at a skill level beyond normal players like me so they can be okay missing Eos' healing utility and it doesn't hurt them as bad, but the SCH still sacrifices some of their DPS and cohealer DPS by using it in the end.

Also worth mentioning I looked at some of the Alte Roite top runs and Balance can contribute up to almost 1000 rDPS in some cases. One run I saw had Balance at "953.6"

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Originally Posted by Fayo

I'm a healer and like any good healer I only heal

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??? if you where a good healer you would be doing dps as well as keeping the party alive the healer jobs have been designed around doing both healing and dps. they removed any skill cap in healer dps with the Cleric Stance change so there is 0 reason for you 2 stand there and not do dps when the party dose not need any healing.

Someone care to explain why people think the OPs opinion is ok?

Good DPS: doesn’t miss a GCD, doesn’t stop, does good DPS.

Good tanks: doesn’t miss a GCD, does reasonable DPS for their class and uses CDs as/when needed, holds hate.

Good healer: heals? Stands there when no healing is needed? Just heals. Nothing else

Something screams not right to me when the tanks and DPS don’t get a break yet these “pure healers” think it’s ok to stand around watching us do the work