Can we please get more cool looking outfits for male characters?

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Originally Posted by Vexander

I'm all for equal glamours, but the issue is pretty straight forward.

If 100% of glamour sales are divided into 70% female and 30% male, then making male glamours is half as cost effective as it is to make female glamours, since there are twice as many sales for female glamours.

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This pretty much the only reason that's why we get female glamours most of the time.
Also, they look at the sales of other costumes. (like Male Vs. Female version)

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Originally Posted by Zeonsilt

This pretty much the only reason that's why we get female glamours most of the time.
Also, they look at the sales of other costumes. (like Male Vs. Female version)

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I'm sure that male reskinned CUL AF which you can replicate in-game for free simply flies off the virtual shelves compared to the unique female Valentione's set with apron dress and playful striped stockings. My character can look more or less indistinguishable from Urianger in-game for free with items I have lying around on a retainer; even the base Yda costume at least offers race-locked pants for other races (with limitations - all of those early Scion glamour sets kind of suck). It would be a terrible comparison to make, though I don't doubt that it's exactly what's happening.

Subscriptions are worth more than single cash shop purchases, in the long run, since every individual subscriber has cash shop access. If people who want to play male characters are no longer joining and staying with the game because it's become a typical male gaze panderfest, that's a factor they ought to consider in their corporate decisionmaking.

I mean, if we're talking about pure profit then let's not pretend as if there aren't a lot of people playing male characters who throw a lot of money at this game and have proven time and time again that if neat, cool looking outfits are added to the Mog Station then we will open up our wallets and purchase them immediately.

I also think it's rather deceptive to pretend as if it's a case of female gear selling more often when the grim reality is that male characters just aren't given nearly as much attention across the board in regards to quality and value for money. Plus when female gear is mentioned it's hyped up considerably and arrives in a timely manner. The same cannot be said of male gear. We're still waiting for the elusive variant of the 'bunny outfit' for men. Female characters are clearly the main target audience for the whole 'grow pretty flowers in a flower pot, then craft them into headpieces to wear' and although male characters can use them too there's complete and utter static when it comes to things like more facial hair options and the body hair glamour that was mentioned in an interview and then never brought up again.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

The issue is, they also need to turn a profit. I can see why they prioritize female glamours for that reason. They'll sell better. As for male glamours, its certainly easier to adapt existing assets, like they did with Aymeric. FFXIV is a wonderful game, and growing in popularity, but it still is growing, and needs to generate profit to stay competitive in the MMO market.

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That makes it sound like we only have 10% male characters and 90% female characters but thats not true. We still have quite a bit of male characters (one census was around half each?) and we also read that some posters only changed to female because they hate the bad glamours for male.

Also this is a digital good and it might cost some money to change it for the male (or female depending on the original gender) but if its done once you wont have any more costs for it. Thus after a certain number of sold items you will make pure profit out of this. Seeing how they said that the cash shop runs on its own money and that they get lots of money for things like fantasia one would believe that they have enough money to do a version for both genders. Heck a lot of people simply want an outfit for each gender released at the same time. So they could simply have released Lyses and Hiens outfit. (If it was not ready they could have waited till both are)

But yeah what can one get from a company that fears creating cute/sexy outfits for males and that still cant give the bunny set for male characters after years of promising it.

maybe add a Male version of Guardion corp uniform

i suppect a male version would feature long pants instead of a skirt

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I mean, if we're talking about pure profit then let's not pretend as if there aren't a lot of people playing male characters who throw a lot of money at this game and have proven time and time again that if neat, cool looking outfits are added to the Mog Station then we will open up our wallets and purchase them immediately.

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I would wager that more female characters bought Aymeric's outfit than male characters.

trenchcoat black mage armor hehe

instead of more male outfits, how about the design team take their time and make every outfit male and female. We have something similar with the Hempen Clothing changing depending on the race, why not do the same thing with every outfit in the game and cash shop?

Their own development team is basically ignoring one portion of the population every time they put something on the cash shop because they don't want to take the time to create a male and female version of every outfit.

I hope this thread can make it to the devs since it was actually noticed by a rep, even if their reply wasn't exactly on-point.

I'll be honest- the biggest reason I took the plunge into XIV was because I could play as a cat boy AND everyone, regardless of gender, wore the same stuff (with small changes as necessary). If I want to be treated like a second-class player, I can go to just about any other MMO out there and not be charged per month for the privilege. Come on SE, tell your devs to suck it up and start making things right again. It's their job to make all kinds of gear, not just the ones they personally want to see and wear.

What baffles me is the fact that Yoshi considered "our developers are not comfortable designing sexy male outfits" as a valid reason. Not doing the job because "my feelings" is a big red sign here in NA. Though I'd reckon, considering Japan has one of the strongest work ethics in the world, this kind of mindset/behaviour won't be considered professional either by their general population.

By all means, not liking sexy male outfits is their prerogative. However, I think it's important to separate between work and personal stance. The bias towards female glamours is obvious, with Ivalice being the most recent example. Little sister is as unique as she can be, but big brother (who is the protagonist in the game) only gets a beige Mocienne outfit. I may not feel as strongly as Serilda and the others regarding this issue, but I fully sympathize with them and support every attempt to enable everyone to wear whatever they fancy.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Can we ask what sort of factors you guys are taking in?

I ask this because we're getting the impression that the top factor here seems be SE getting the impression that we want more fem glams when the population's has actually been requesting unisex and/or more male glam to equate the fem glam numbers.

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I'd just like to point out, that while i agree that males should indeed get more glamour...using the population that posts on the forums is not a really a good indication what the majority wants, people that visit and by further extension post on the forums are a incredibly small minority. At the end of the day they are going to prioritize creating cosmetic items that are going to sell more and female cosmetic and glamour have always yielded more profits than their male counterparts, all you have to do is look at any asian based online game with a cash shop. Female cosmetic items are always more popular and they will continue to be until the actual buying demographic completely changes to a majority that prefer male cosmetics, which i don't see happening anytime soon. It does suck and i can understand why people are upset and I do hope that SE has something planned for people that play male characters, so here's to hoping.

So why not make the female exclusive gear that is not on the Mog Station unisex, then? They're not giving SE any money (as far as I know) and I know there will be males wearing the Thavnairian Bustier.

People keep repeating the same thing over and over...

Female glamour sales will always be higher because:
1. Devs aren't making glamour for males. But are making glamour for females to be bought.
2. Devs do not know how to create good looking male glamour(or characters even)
3. Devs are too uncomfortable with making anything remotely cool/masculine for men and sexy/appealing to women who play males.

Everyone keeps saying "Female glamours always get more sales so they'll make female glamours!" Well duh, they're putting all heart into female glamours and no soul into male glamours. So female glamours will CONTINUE to get sales and skew records.

The 'discomfort' angle would certainly explain some things, though it has some rather troubling implications. How deeply rooted is the bias? I think it's time that the development team addressed it properly and took steps to eliminate it.

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Originally Posted by Selova

I'd just like to point out, that while i agree that males should indeed get more glamour...using the population that posts on the forums is not a really a good indication what the majority wants, people that visit and by further extension post on the forums are a incredibly small minority. At the end of the day they are going to prioritize creating cosmetic items that are going to sell more and female cosmetic and glamour have always yielded more profits than their male counterparts, all you have to do is look at any asian based online game with a cash shop.

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Thank you but this is already pointed out on almost every page of every discussion over the history of this three year debate, and every point has been countered before. The size of the population of the forum isn't so significant as the proportion, and threads on this topic are constant, frequently receiving staff responses in English and Japanese alike and racking up hundreds of thousands of hits. The number of times the question is asked at gatherings, PLLs and so on is significant enough that Yoshida has acknowledged it multiple times in locations all over the world, telling us to be patient and that change is coming then prioritising completely irrelevant fluff over catering to half of the entire playerbase.

Even if the number of people actively campaigning for things like bunny ears and less priority for female characters is small, the number of people with male characters who would enjoy and use things like bunny ears or stubble would be much larger; these people who play male characters are paying to play and have fun just like you are. The number of people with female characters who feel empathy, or who realise that catering to the majority is only one step away from ignoring less popular Roe/Highlander girls for new glamours, is not insignificant. My in-game friends don't post here either, but they all understand how miserable this issue makes me and think it's unfair to single out half of the models in the game and ignore them. Don't underestimate compassion.

Heck, if it became public knowledge that they were being shortchanged you might see quite a few more people annoyed. Instead, we have articles like this which have the exact opposite effect; several of us have come out and said we are specifically using male characters because we originally thought we were going to enjoy a progressive game which treated everyone equally. The times have changed since that article ran.

We have evidence even in this tiny sample set of posters showing that glamour fans are feeling forced to fantasia to female models (several posters have mentioned doing just this) or choose female characters at the start because they happened to hear about the bias early enough before getting attached to their main. You can go back through old threads about the bias and see prolific posters who truly loved the game, whose accounts are now inactive because they just gave up and quit. S-E is sanctioning unfair treatment and cracking jokes about how hard it is to make bunny suits and Thavnair dancer attire for men (it isn't, here are some examples made by the community and here's a bonus of a buff dude in a bunny suit from a Japanese-made title with a male creator aimed at a male audience, showing that it can be done by people who aren't too creeped out by the male form to function). It doesn't make any of us feel good.

This is a game which made a beautiful comeback after a false start which lost the faith of many of its players. Yoshida himself takes player satisfaction very, very seriously, and stakes his integrity on unambiguous statements about how he wants to make a game for 'all of the players' (his exact words) to enjoy. It's absolutely not one of the many dime-a-dozen pandering F2P Asian MMOs which only stay afloat due to crazy female-only fan service costumes, and invest their modelling time into adapting male costumes to female models but never the other way around, and if it's trying to become one then it's natural that a portion of the Final Fantasy fan community, accustomed to much better treatment for the male and female gazes alike over the history of the series, will feel disappointed.

There is a lot of conjecture on both sides of this issue, and I'll freely acknowledge I may be completely wrong in my assumptions here. But is it really so hard to believe that maybe the actual demand for female glamours is just higher than that of male glamours? I mean, women's clothing departments are much larger than men's in the real world, even though men actually spend more on clothes. See also: the Style Savvy games, Barbie dolls, etc. These things are marketed almost exclusively to women, and focus largely on women's fashion over men's.

Also, again, the fact that the game used to be very gender balanced and has skewed towards women implies that that is what the market actually favors. Clearly Square Enix didn't have a glamour bias at the start of 2.0, where do you suppose it came from?

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Also, again, the fact that the game used to be very gender balanced and has skewed towards women implies that that is what the market actually favors. Clearly Square Enix didn't have a glamour bias at the start of 2.0, where do you suppose it came from?

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It came because they decided that any set that was the male equal to a female set was made unisex. Thus if you played a female character you could have more glamours for your buck.

Sailor Suit and Spring were some of the first "new outfits". Sailor was also given to girls because the devs thought it seemed cute.
Then the Gambler set was unisex, despite Females having the Bunny Outfit (....TWO Bunny Outfits)
Thavnairien Bolero....unisex again, despite the girls having the Bustier.

So players think to themselves, well...If I go Female...I'll have more options at my disposal.
And SE lap it up by making more and more Female only glamours, because they seem to sell well, and then push it as the fault of the players.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

But is it really so hard to believe that maybe the actual demand for female glamours is just higher than that of male glamours? I mean, women's clothing departments are much larger than men's in the real world, even though men actually spend more on clothes.

Also, again, the fact that the game used to be very gender balanced and has skewed towards women implies that that is what the market actually favors. Clearly Square Enix didn't have a glamour bias at the start of 2.0, where do you suppose it came from?

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Why are clothing departments for women bigger in the real world? The conventional thinking is that it's because women like to buy clothes. It's a massive generalisation and one which self-propogates.

In FFXIV, however, there is no rule saying that girls who like guys, guys who like guys, girls who like girls or any other configuration of gender/preference necessarily matches their character's gender. Their character gender is a completely arbitrary flag (especially in the case of Lalafell, who use the exact same model for both genders anyway and should never be genderlocked out of any gear ever). Whether I'm male or female in real life has no relationship whatsoever to my desire to dress up in FFXIV. The FF series has always dressed both male and female characters beautifully in a mix of masculine and feminine clothing, and attracted people of all preferences and tastes as a result. It's practically one of the hallmarks of the series.

An in-game glamour bias appearing during ARR makes no sense commercially, because they believed at the time (by their own admission) that the gender split was equal if not in favour of male characters, and they weren't making extra money from the in-game items (any argument that it might get more theoretical sign-ups from female characters could be countered by the amount of money lost dealing with people like myself who end up ragequitting and swearing off all future S-E products). It would definitely have taken more man hours to adapt the Best Man's Suit to the female form than to set the bunny ears to work on all genders, since they don't even need remodelling - just positioning slightly, and the Japanese fans were specifically promised that it would be done 'as a priority' back in 2015, which to me shows intent to either delibrately mislead all of the players with male characters or some serious failure to prioritise. However, either way it's not something you say when your intention is to deliberately favour female characters. If that were the case, I would have had infinitely more respect for Yoshida if he had just said 'no bunny ears, all female characters are played by women and only women wear clothes IRL' back then rather than leading me on for years by pretending to understand the issue.

A cash shop glamour bias appearing after the outcry over the in-game bias also makes no sense to me, because they cannot possibly have enough data to compare how worthwhile it is when they have been phoning the male options in for so long. I never bought any of the male-only cash shop glamours because they didn't arrive until after I was embroiled in this problem of being treated like a second class customer; I didn't buy Aymeric's (which I actively like) because to do so would have accepted the insult of S-E releasing his hairstyle as a unisex item against all of their own supposed principles. I buy - well, bought, not spending a single cent there any more - tons of other unisex and fluff items on the cash shop and as merchandise tie-ins, but gender locked items don't work in the favour of anyone with a male character. And since other people openly fantasia to gain access to be better glamours, any stats from the cash shop broken down by character gender are questionable.

Will people spend more on better items? Yes. That is absolutely unquestionable. Do female glamours always have to look better than male ones? I don't think they do. The women (and gentlemen of discerning taste) who shop in those vast womens clothing departments in the real world could appreciate finely tailored menswear too, and unlike the real world a game lets them actually wear it and have it fit them properly no matter what their shape. The designers are capable of this. The High House Justaucorps looks just as good as the Bustle. The Songbird outfits for both genders look great. The South Seas Talisman is a very acceptable masculine alternative to the bikini top it replaces. If we didn't know they were capable of good work, we'd believe them more readily when they suddenly act as though fair treatment is impossible. If it really is that hard to make a bunny suit or bustier fit the male form, I am happy to break out Blender and adapt some using nothing but existing in-game assets if they want help. They have already modelled all of the parts I'd need to do it.

If the game has changed from the one I first joined, and S-E is no longer intending on catering for 'all of the players' as everyone is suggesting, they need to be much more clear about this than then have been historically. It's not fair to mislead us with platitudes and broken promises.

Fashion for men is a pretty huge industry in itself. A pretty varied and profitable one at that. It did not become a success due to designers making offensive comments implying that the male form is 'icky' or by promising to design something and then failing to deliver it in a timely manner. They became a success because investments and gambles were made and clothing was designed and created to meet the considerable demand.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

Why are clothing departments for women bigger in the real world? The conventional thinking is that it's because women like to buy clothes. It's a massive generalisation and one which self-propogates.

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As I mentioned earlier, studies have actually shown that men spend more on clothes than women. Retailers surely know this, yet the women's departments remain much larger. I can't speculate with any expertise on why that is, but I can observe that, at my office, the variance in fashion among women is several orders of magnitude larger than it is among men. I'm guessing those are related phenomena.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

In FFXIV, however, there is no rule saying that girls who like guys, guys who like guys, girls who like girls or any other configuration of gender/preference necessarily matches their character's gender. Their character gender is a completely arbitrary flag (especially in the case of Lalafell, who use the exact same model for both genders anyway and should never be genderlocked out of any gear ever). Whether I'm male or female in real life has no relationship whatsoever to my desire to dress up in FFXIV. The FF series has always dressed both male and female characters beautifully in a mix of masculine and feminine clothing, and attracted people of all preferences and tastes as a result. It's practically one of the hallmarks of the series.

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I agree with you here, the player's gender probably doesn't have much impact on whether they want to dress up. For instance, the reason my main character is female is because I quickly realized that the game looked amazing and dressing up was appealing. And dressing up a female character is more appealing to me than dressing up a male character, because there are many more options that I like. I made this decision during the 1.0 beta, long before anything was locked by gender.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

An in-game glamour bias appearing during ARR makes no sense commercially, because they believed at the time (by their own admission) that the gender split was equal if not in favour of male characters, and they weren't making extra money from the in-game items (any argument that it might get more theoretical sign-ups from female characters could be countered by the amount of money lost dealing with people like myself who end up ragequitting and swearing off all future S-E products). It would definitely have taken more man hours to adapt the Best Man's Suit to the female form than to set the bunny ears to work on all genders, since they don't even need remodelling - just positioning slightly, and the Japanese fans were specifically promised that it would be done 'as a priority' back in 2015, which to me shows intent to either delibrately mislead all of the players with male characters or some serious failure to prioritise. However, either way it's not something you say when your intention is to deliberately favour female characters. If that were the case, I would have had infinitely more respect for Yoshida if he had just said 'no bunny ears, all female characters are played by women and only women wear clothes IRL' back then rather than leading me on for years by pretending to understand the issue.

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I definitely think a large part of the reason for the way clothes are locked by gender in FFXIV is just straight up conservatism. Square Enix does not seem inclined to want to make dresses and such for men, even if they won't admit it in those terms. Their excuses on a lack of a bunny suit are pretty obviously ridiculous. Sure, there have been a few exceptions, but there's definitely an undercurrent there. I'd prefer they be honest, too.

However, that doesn't negate potential concerns about demand. I have no problem with people wanting more male glamours, the notion that gives me pause is that the genders must be treated exactly equally. If it turns out that characters of one gender partake in glamour far more than the other (and again, I don't know that they do, but I also don't know that they don't), why should it be equal?

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Originally Posted by Serilda

A cash shop glamour bias appearing after the outcry over the in-game bias also makes no sense to me, because they cannot possibly have enough data to compare how worthwhile it is when they have been phoning the male options in for so long. I never bought any of the male-only cash shop glamours because they didn't arrive until after I was embroiled in this problem of being treated like a second class customer; I didn't buy Aymeric's (which I actively like) because to do so would have accepted the insult of S-E releasing his hairstyle as a unisex item against all of their own supposed principles. I buy - well, bought, not spending a single cent there any more - tons of other unisex and fluff items on the cash shop and as merchandise tie-ins, but gender locked items don't work in the favour of anyone with a male character. And since other people openly fantasia to gain access to be better glamours, any stats from the cash shop broken down by character gender are questionable.

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This is true, the gender bias outcry started before anything was on the cash shop. But Square Enix has data about how many people use glamours in games. If that data says that female characters used glamour far more often, then it would stand to reason to expect female characters to also buy glamours far more often.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

If the game has changed from the one I first joined, and S-E is no longer intending on catering for 'all of the players' as everyone is suggesting, they need to be much more clear about this than then have been historically. It's not fair to mislead us with platitudes and broken promises.

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By all means keep asking for glamour. There was an official response on this thread, they're clearly reading it. However, consider that you may be a minority voice here. Or maybe not. Maybe Square Enix is making terrible decisions based on old-fashioned biases. I really couldn't say. But certainly I haven't seen proof of that, either.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Fashion for men is a pretty huge industry in itself. A pretty varied and profitable one at that. It did not become a success due to designers making offensive comments implying that the male form is 'icky' or by promising to design something and then failing to deliver it in a timely manner. They became a success because investments and gambles were made and clothing was designed and created to meet the considerable demand.

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That's all true, yet women's departments are still far larger and more varied than men's departments. To a much greater degree than in FFXIV, in fact.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

But Square Enix has data about how many people use glamours in games. If that data says that female characters used glamour far more often, then it would stand to reason to expect female characters to also buy glamours far more often.

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And as stated before in this thread, if the female charas get more glamour options to begin with, and their options are far superior to the male charas' even when those do get glamours, is it really such a surprise? It's the egg and the chicken situation where you're claiming one came first, and we're saying it's the other. As for why it's like this at all, it all boils down to sexism and judging by the devs' discomfort at rendering sexy/appealing outfits for male charas, probably a bit of homophobia, too. Same reason these situations exist in real life.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

And as stated before in this thread, if the female charas get more glamour options to begin with, and their options are far superior to the male charas' even when those do get glamours, is it really such a surprise? It's the egg and the chicken situation where you're claiming one came first, and we're saying it's the other. As for why it's like this at all, it all boils down to sexism and judging by the devs' discomfort at rendering sexy/appealing outfits for male charas, probably a bit of homophobia, too. Same reason these situations exist in real life.

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I mean, you're not wrong. But the "same reason these situations exist in real life" comment is kind of important here. Do you think that offering a few more male glamours in FFXIV is going to solve this age-old issue, even only within the context of FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by Serilda

I never bought any of the male-only cash shop glamours because they didn't arrive until after I was embroiled in this problem of being treated like a second class customer; I didn't buy Aymeric's (which I actively like) because to do so would have accepted the insult of S-E releasing his hairstyle as a unisex item against all of their own supposed principles.

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I wanted to touch on this separately, because this is the crux of my issue with what you're arguing. I use Aymeric's hairstyle, because it is by far my favorite female hairstyle in the game. It's the only thing I've ever bought from the store and have never changed since. I spent a ton of extra money and got a bunch of gear I can't even use in order to get that hairstyle. (Though to be honest I wouldn't have used the gear anyway, because I don't find it at all appealing.)

Why would denying me that make you feel better? Why do I need to suffer so you can feel like a first class citizen? You want me to not have access to something I want so you can have exclusive access, even though you're not even using it. Who is the winner here?

More glamours is good. Less locks is good. Calling for more locks because you're mad that you're locked out of something else is bad. That's not fairness, that's pettiness.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I mean, you're not wrong. But the "same reason these situations exist in real life" comment is kind of important here. Do you think that offering a few more male glamours in FFXIV is going to solve this age-old issue, even only within the context of FFXIV?

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This game is riddled with that sort of thing so even if we get some decent male glamours (or just keep the few decent ones male-locked for a change) it won't change the fact that the game thinks enjoying the male physique is wrong like in the last summer event, or writing female characters as damsels in distress despite being war heroes, or fridging, etc, etc. But ultimately that sort of thing, while leaving a lasting impression, is only a small portion of how I spend my time in this game. Seeing my chara, as well as others', running around in attractive, stylish glamours made for male characters, finding myself actually Examining male characters instead of only female characters, and not feeling like I have to apologize to the game for enjoying seeing guys dress nice would certainly be a step in the right direction in making a lot of players feel more welcome than we do right now.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Why would denying me that make you feel better?

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Schadenfreude. But more seriously...
It won't, but then again, that's not the point here. The point here is that Minfillia and Y'shtola's SB hairstyles remain gender locked despite there being a precedent for hairstyles to be gender-neutral while the rest of the outfit is not. Meanwhile I'm sure that if enough people asked for Thancred's hair to be unlocked for ladies, it would, if it's not already.
Lock everything so it's fair, or unlock everything for that same fairness. Otherwise it's the exact double standard at the core of this issue.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I wanted to touch on this separately, because this is the crux of my issue with what you're arguing. I use Aymeric's hairstyle, because it is by far my favorite female hairstyle in the game. It's the only thing I've ever bought from the store and have never changed since.

Why would denying me that make you feel better? Why do I need to suffer so you can feel like a first class citizen? You want me to not have access to something I want so you can have exclusive access, even though you're not even using it. Who is the winner here?

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I have a very specific reason for being salty about Aymeric's hair. In my case, I would have loved to use Minfilia's hair. It ticks all of my boxes, being intricate, not really short and yet not clipping through every single collar in the game. It doesn't have an annoying headband or wispy parts which would clip my ears like most of the in-game updos I can use. It's not especially 'manly', but I'm a 2m tall elezen dude; I don't care about that. There are hardly any hairstyles in the game which fit the bill, just like Aymeric's hairstyle is special for you. I think Aymeric's hair looks good on girls going for a tomboy aesthetic. I also think that Minfilia's would have looked good on guys going for the opposite.

I would have zero problem whatsoever with the Aymeric thing if they had not set a precedent with Minfilia's hair and then made a special exception the very first time a male-only outfit with unique hair got released without a female equivalent (Thancred/Y'shtola cancel out, those sets were fine even though in an ideal world everything would be unisex). Minfilia's useless costume is only one item so it wouldn't even penalise me too much on inventory. I would definitely have bought it. Selling it locked on the basis that NPC styles should be true to the original character - so much so that we can't even dye them - then seeing them immediately making new rules when only female characters could benefit is a perfect example of how messed up this game has become.

So no, I'm not happy at the idea of players with female characters being locked out of items they might really love, like Aymeric's hair or the Gambler set or the only smart suit girls have access to in the game. But I do feel we'd get less pushback on these issues and more fellow gamers speaking up with us if the issue affected everyone, not just half of everyone.

(And I am salty at the moment, I know, but since I just decided to upset my entire FC and stop renewing a sub to a game I would otherwise love I feel that my annoyance, three long years and over a thousand posts in the making, is understandable. I feel like I know all of the other people who have been fighting for this stuff on the forums over the years personally at this point even though we'll never meet in the game. It's ridiculous that it's still an issue.)

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Originally Posted by Serilda

I have a very specific reason for being salty about Aymeric's hair. In my case, I would have loved to use Minfilia's hair. It ticks all of my boxes, being intricate, not really short and yet not clipping through every single collar in the game. It doesn't have an annoying headband or wispy parts which would clip my ears like most of the in-game updos I can use. It's not especially 'manly', but I'm a 2m tall elezen dude; I don't care about that. There are hardly any hairstyles in the game which fit the bill, just like Aymeric's hairstyle is special for you. I think Aymeric's hair looks good on girls going for a tomboy aesthetic. I also think that Minfilia's would have looked good on guys going for the opposite.

I would have zero problem whatsoever with the Aymeric thing if they had not set a precedent with Minfilia's hair and then made a special exception the very first time a male-only outfit with unique hair got released without a female equivalent (Thancred/Y'shtola cancel out, those sets were fine even though in an ideal world everything would be unisex). Minfilia's useless costume is only one item so it wouldn't even penalise me too much on inventory. I would definitely have bought it. Selling it locked on the basis that NPC styles should be true to the original character - so much so that we can't even dye them - then seeing them immediately making new rules when only female characters could benefit is a perfect example of how messed up this game has become.

So no, I'm not happy at the idea of players with female characters being locked out of items they might really love, like Aymeric's hair or the Gambler set or the only smart suit girls have access to in the game. But I do feel we'd get less pushback on these issues and more fellow gamers speaking up with us if the issue affected everyone, not just half of everyone.

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I feel you on this (obviously), but let's argue for them to unlock Minfilia's hair, and while we're at it, everything else. I see your point about the issue affecting everyone giving it visibility, but I just don't like that tactic.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

(And I am salty at the moment, I know, but since I just decided to upset my entire FC and stop renewing a sub to a game I would otherwise love I feel that my annoyance, three long years and over a thousand posts in the making, is understandable. I feel like I know all of the other people who have been fighting for this stuff on the forums over the years personally at this point even though we'll never meet in the game. It's ridiculous that it's still an issue.)

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Well, I'm sorry to hear that, but hopefully there will eventually be some happy resolution to all this.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

...or writing female characters as damsels in distress despite being war heroes, or fridging, etc, etc.

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I'm genuinely curious what you're referring to here.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Lock everything so it's fair, or unlock everything for that same fairness. Otherwise it's the exact double standard at the core of this issue.

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I think it's very obvious which of those we should be arguing for.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I'm genuinely curious what you're referring to here.

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Moen was killed for Urianger to have a personality. Yda/Lyse is about the most stubborn, rash, hotheaded thing in existence... until she needs Thancred to drag her away instead of, you know, rushing towards Papalymo alongside the WoL (the option I picked) and have Papalymo knock the both of us back. Two examples that didn't sit right with me, off the top of my head.

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I think it's very obvious which of those we should be arguing for.

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Agreed. But I'd settle for some nice male-exclusive items first because that'll be easier for them than going back and unlocking everything.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Moen was killed for Urianger to have a personality. Yda/Lyse is about the most stubborn, rash, hotheaded thing in existence... until she needs Thancred to drag her away instead of, you know, rushing towards Papalymo alongside the WoL (the option I picked) and have Papalymo knock the both of us back. Two examples that didn't sit right with me, off the top of my head.

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Oh I thought you were referring to something with the Warrior of Light specifically. But yeah those are fair examples.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Agreed. But I'd settle for some nice male-exclusive items first because that'll be easier for them than going back and unlocking everything.

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Why would that be easier? At worst they'd need to model everything for the opposite gender, which in many cases (e.g., all of the original scions except Minfilia) is a complete non-issue because they were using standard 1.0 non-gender-locked gear anyway. And if that is actually a lot of work, then continuing to make exclusive models now just increases the barrier to solving that problem later.

I agree that SE should go back and unlock all hairs for both sexes (and the general thread topic), tbh I didn't know the Aymeric hair was usable by females til Talraen mentioned it. Guess I've never noticed anyone with it.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Why would that be easier? At worst they'd need to model everything for the opposite gender, which in many cases (e.g., all of the original scions except Minfilia) is a complete non-issue because they were using standard 1.0 non-gender-locked gear anyway. And if that is actually a lot of work, then continuing to make exclusive models now just increases the barrier to solving that problem later.

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Releasing everything currently out as gender unlocked, which might include designing new outfits outright
Or
Releasing several few gender locked items for guys to pacify the masses until a more solid solution is established
Which is easier?

Obviously the ideal is that no outfit will be gender locked moving on, or at the very least, no outfit will be on its lonesome. You don't want guys wearing Lyse's outfit? Fine, give us a matching set alongside it. Doesn't even have to be a different NPC's, could just be a variation that's different enough to not really be that NPC's outfit, sort of like how they'd have to come up with something for Edda as the closest would be Avere and the only time we saw him with a body, he was wearing regular tank gear.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Obviously the ideal is that no outfit will be gender locked moving on, or at the very least, no outfit will be on its lonesome. You don't want guys wearing Lyse's outfit? Fine, give us a matching set alongside it. Doesn't even have to be a different NPC's, could just be a variation that's different enough to not really be that NPC's outfit, sort of like how they'd have to come up with something for Edda as the closest would be Avere and the only time we saw him with a body, he was wearing regular tank gear.

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We don't need to have all gears exist in male/female pairs if the goal is to have no gender-locked gear. One of the main benefits of unlocking everything will be to get away from these arbitrary restrictions, so they can just make gear that's cool and whoever wants it can use it.

Or more directly, I'm not saying Edda's gear should remain locked, so why would you want to introduce an equivalent with the explicit goal of having it be locked?

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Originally Posted by Talraen

At worst they'd need to model everything for the opposite gender, which in many cases (e.g., all of the original scions except Minfilia) is a complete non-issue because they were using standard 1.0 non-gender-locked gear anyway. And if that is actually a lot of work, then continuing to make exclusive models now just increases the barrier to solving that problem later.

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Absolutely true, and I agree with your principles; just not the optimism that continuing to do what we've been doing for years is ever going to change anything any more. If moving a couple of bunny ears can't be squeezed in despite releasing two entire expansions and yet another female-only bunny suit in the interim, I dread to think how long it would take them to actually sort out this completely avoidable problem when they still seem to be stuck on the idea that we're all requesting female-only gear somehow as SenorPatty said:

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

I ask this because we're getting the impression that the top factor here seems be SE getting the impression that we want more fem glams when the population's has actually been requesting unisex and/or more male glam to equate the fem glam numbers.

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Even the relatively gentle Japanese forums now have the issue where every post about a new female-only glamour ends up derailed by people asking what on earth they're doing about the guys. We all know that, as you say, making most of this stuff unisex wouldn't be a terrifically difficult operation. I would be happy to wake up to the news that everything had been unlocked and they were boosting their equal opportunity glamour game permanently going forwards (which is why I think unlocking all gloves/hats/boots would be an excellent start, since everyone gets something new with minimal effort and I love long boots). But literally thousands of posts begging for this end up with the conclusion being that we actually all just want more locked stuff, it feels fruitless. I complained bitterly about Minfilia's hair at the time, along with everyone else. The only result I saw? Fixing it... for Aymeric. Thanks, S-E. I want you guys to get Hien's costume too (heck, have the stubble too) but when we keep getting told that we're too much effort to bother with, simply flicking a switch to make it a problem for the other half of the userbase too feels as though it's the only way left to get results.

I do hope they never release another race for this game until they sort their processes out, both for design (I'm cool with androgynous-looking clothes, some guys and girls want more classically masculine looks to be available) and for implementation. Announcing another race when they're too stretched to cater for half of the existing ones would be a disaster.

It annoys me more each time I log into the game, because releasing multiple updates which force the players to see banners with female-only goodies right on the launcher really doesn't make it easy to forget the longstanding issue exists.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

So why not make the female exclusive gear that is not on the Mog Station unisex, then? They're not giving SE any money (as far as I know) and I know there will be males wearing the Thavnairian Bustier.

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14 pages and as i see only one person had the idea to try and get content back in the game and out of the cash shop...

A post i made in another thread discussing the issue of cash shop items being undyeable.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Now would be the time to begin requesting a dye-able version and hair option obtainable in game. We all know it's on the way, why not garner support to have it not be in the cash shop? In the end at least an attempt will be made.

SE, this outfit and hair style is requested to be placed in game as a quest reward and not a purchase in the mog station. The attire pictured below is not only iconic to the main story quest but also would make a great reward for palyers that have been invested in the Ala Mhigo storyline. As a personal touch the attire should be made in to fit into the five corresponding equipment slots (from top to bottom) Earrings, dress, arm guards, pants, and boots, to include the option to dye all items individually from one another. Expected with the outfit would be Lyse's hair option for all races.

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net...20170501110911

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!6 pages and no visual examples given, even after getting a response from a community manager...

We know a collaboration is on the way, we know FFXV is popular, why not ask for this to be made part of that as an in-game event reward?
https://80.lv/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/pic_60.jpg

I know this game probably won't ever reach Tera tier in basically only supporting people who play female characters, but I have a feeling SE wants a (more tasteful) piece of that pie. ToR is the only recent MMO I can think of where it didn't feel like male characters got the short end of the stick.

We need more clothes for men that make male Roegadyn look even more amazing. More tight pants and shirts plz.

Hopefully the FFXV crossover event will help balance the scale

I'd like more open-fronted tops (Lyse's without the breast covering fabric would have been perfect but since they screwed it up already I'll just ask for an in-game non-NPC dyeable version). And a waistcoat that doesn't have mandatory brown areas like the GS one would be very much appreciated (the one they made unisex and reskinned for Halloween; the Halloween one dyes much better for people with non-standard skin tones but has a cape, the GS one dyes less appealingly but has a less niche design).

And actual shorts that aren't either super long or briefs. Please; there are so many of these but they're all female-only and I look weird in long shorts.

The next Live Letter is right around the corner, scheduled for December 15th. Here's hoping we get an update on the FFXV crossover event, eh? It's been roughly a year since the game itself launched after all.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The next Live Letter is right around the corner, scheduled for December 15th. Here's hoping we get an update on the FFXV crossover event, eh? It's been roughly a year since the game itself launched after all.

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At this point I'd assume they'd use it to push an expansion or DLC or something